A mosaic of soldiers who have died in Iraq:
Original Source. Mirrored here in small, medium, and large sizes. The largest is about 4.4 megabytes and you can clearly make out each face. It’s also good to take a step back from the screen.
1,023 thoughts on “Moving Image”
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Might be worth mentioning, that all of the pictures must be on there two or three times (There are 31 across by 47 down which means 1457 pictures.) I believe there have “only” been around 500-600 soldiers that have died. It’s still a moving image, though.
My hair is standing. I feel chilled.
That is really sad to look at. Imagine how many family members are behind each of those photos.
FREEDOM ISN”T FREE!!!! You idiots would probably have objected fighting the Japs during WWII as well. Try watching the History Channel once in awhile instead of MTV.
No, “George”, Cheap Oil isn’t free. And more of those faces died *after* Dubya declared victory from a staged photo-op on an aircraft carrier. No end is in sight and no plan is in sight either.
Freedom isn’t free, yes. But that’s no excuse to go throwing your currency away on speculative deals.
Cool image, Matt.
Thank you. What an incredibly moving image–I am in serious awe!
Its a sad picture but you need to look at the whole picture… how many people died in vietnam? WW II? WW I? the Civil War? our troops have done a hell of a job there so only 600 have died.
With an average loss of over one soldier a day, and estimates of the US presence in Iraq running from 18 to 24 months before we can even consider pulling out, it does not really matter much that images may have been used three times. This powerful image is as much a comment on the future as it is the situation to date. With other nations responding to the democratic will of their citizens and getting the hell out of Iraq, American families and friends can expect a greater number of US soldiers and civilians being sent to Iraq in airplane seats and coming home in body bags. To the clever tyke who commented about “Freedom isn’t Free,” how ignorant to compare to WW II and Japan. Along with the History channel, you might want to crack a book. Iraq has yet to attack the US and this bombing raid and occupation is not about Freedom. And bravo on elevating the conversation, “Japs…” do you use the terms: “chinks, spics, kykes, wops, huns and niggers” too? Nice work on the image Matt
To clarify, the image is not mine and I did not make it. I got it from the source indicated.
An amazing picture. I have added a link to it from my chart of US military deaths in Bush’s Iraq Crusade.
I wonder if the same person who made this will do one of Saddam Hussein using the faces of all people of Halabja? On March 16th 1988 5,000 innocet civilians, 75% women and children perished in a Chemicla attack ordered by Saddam. Check it out http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
Freedom isn’t free, its bought with the blood of sons and daughters. The men in the photo above willingly paid that proce without question.
NICE MOZAIC!
I’m glad we have the freedom to speak our minds in this country. We can give our opinions, protest things we disagree with, criticize people; even the president, without the fear of retaliation. We can even make mozaics of people we think are responsible for the death of our soldiers. Personally I give thanks to these brave soldiers who gave their life up to free others, so that they too may have the ability to give their opinion, protest things they disagree with, criticize people; even their president, WITHOUT THE FEAR OF RETALIATION!.
Wow I think we’re on to something! The Iraqi people now have the same kind of freedom to criticize just as we do, and believe me they’re using it.
War is unfortunate no matter who initiates it. Somebody’s husband, Wife, Brother, Sister, or Son dies, and in some cases whole families; our troops are no exception.
Maybe the author of this mozaic should have done a mozaic of Saddam and all the people he’s killed, and while he’s at it make one of Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, etc…and the list goes on….. (you get the point). Instead of wasting countless hours making a mosaic of an “opinion” (albeit respected), maybe do something constructive like helping Our Troops stay alive. Forget politics for one bit, besides we’re already in this mess, and focus on the important things. Who knows? maybe you can make a difference in one soldiers life so that he may not loose it and come back home. I put my money where my mouth is (so to speak). I am a volunteer for an organization call Operation Gratitude we send care packages to the troops to boost their morale, and maybe keep them alive in the process. Remember some of these guys out there may think no one cares and give up. Don’t let your political opinions get in the way of helping our husbands, wives, brothers, sisters or sons. Who knows maybe someone will make a mozaic of the counless people who care (it’s gonna take a whole lotta pictures!).
I agree that it is unfortunate that the dead are used to make a political statement. It just seems wrong to use them in that manner if the families weren’t contacted for permission (out of common courtesy at least). As for the effectiveness of the image… It is just propaganda, and one’s response will depend on your position. So I don’t see it as changing any minds – just reaffirming those which have already decided.
As an aside: why do people respond to trolls like the poster identified as “George Bush”? Internet flames are so childish.
SW – You said other countries are getting out. So I guess you will vote for Kerry who promises to keep us in. It’s the Dems who want to repeat the same mistakes of Vietnam – send in more troops, push back the date for self rule. Kerry’s got some nerve, he voted for this action now he’s saying it was a mistake. Someone should take make a picture with his face on it.
This is the problem with discourse in the US today. You comment on the ineptness and fallacy of the president you are no longer permitted to call yourself an American. It is also assumed that your opinion is invalid because you belong to one political party or the other. Folks, its not the party, it is the idea that matters. America is not a political party it is an ideal built upon ideas.
There are republicans that criticize Bush, and just because I criticize him does not mean that I am a democrat or bound to vote for Kerry. There is no logical tie between countries pulling out of Iraq and me voting for Kerry. I am not going to take the bait and try and defend Kerry’s record on anything or try to speak for the man, that is his job between now and the election.
I think the recent public polls in the US prove my point. It is not a majority of Americans that want to vote for Kerry, it is a majority of Americans that want anybody but Bush, something that seems to be lost on BOTH the major parties.
You can not dismiss my ideas by labeling me democrat, republican or whatever political group you do not belong to, if you are going to do it, do it with the brilliance of your thought not the stigma of your label.
A mosaic of Saddam Hussein using his victims sounds like a good idea, if possible it should be done.
However Hussien’s tyranny does absolve Bush from his actions, lies and caviler attitude with America’s soldiers. Freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people were not the reasons Bush, Cheney and Powell gave in front of US citizens and the world for waging war. It was to remove WMDs and protect America (and the world) from terrorists. The freedom of the Iraqi people is only a rationalization after 1) no evidence that Hussein was responsible for 9/11 was found, and subsequently 2) no evidence of WMDs was found. *Terrorism* has all but disappeared from the standard Whitehouse sound-bites for the press, we are now *freedom fighters.*
Sadly, as Clark testified, despite the valor of these soldiers, exactly because of this war-president America is no safer from terrorism today than it was on 9/11.
These people in Falluja that we’re attacking are no threat to the USA. Just shows how far out of hand this conflict has become.
Maybe the author of this mozaic should have done a mozaic of Saddam and all the people he’s killed, and while he’s at it make one of Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, etc—and the list goes on�..
Every life is sacred, every death a tragedy. As a free nation, founded on this principle amongst others, we have a duty to ensure this remains true for us. Yes, from Iraq to Afghanistan, from Egypt to Saudi Arabia, from Hitler’s Germany to Stalin’s Soviet Union, hundreds of millions of lives have been destroyed by crooked rulers, megalomanic dictators, or thoughtless commanders.
Instead of wasting countless hours making a mosaic of an “opinion” (albeit respected), maybe do something constructive like helping Our Troops stay alive.
As a former member of the armed forces, as someone who subscribed – and subscribes – to an ideal that includes my death for a cause I deem just and worthy, I don’t think of this mosaic as a “waste”. These men and women in uniform, these soldiers, died to disarm a dictator who needed no disarmament. The man who sent them there, pictured as a mosaic comprised of their images, has yet to honor one of them by attending their funerals. The man who smiled, when he cried “bring it on”, the man who smiled, when he announced, a few days ago, he’d expect more of those deaths as the deadline draws near. This mosaic shows whose lives have been destroyed to allow this man to smile. It shows someone who cut their danger pay, their salaries, and who is unwilling to pay their injured brothers and sisters in arms enough to live after they lost limbs in a war, this man wanted to be “brought on”.
This mosaic shows more than just a bunch of DDSs (dead and disposable, served), it shows what he, who is nothing but a mosaic of other’s sacrifices, is made of.
Forget politics for one bit, besides we�re already in this mess, and focus on the important things.
I am not a politician. I am a soldier. For me, the accountability of a commander in chief is the most important thing.
Who knows? maybe you can make a difference in one soldiers life so that he may not loose it and come back home.
I would hope to make a difference in more than just one life. I would hope, that I am able to show, why those men and women died, able to show their need for adequate armor and training, able to show, that I care about their safety and their lives.
I do this, by exposing those who endanger them. I do this, by exposing those, whose decisions and words created a situation you so aptly describe as a “mess” up there. A mess it is, indeed.
I put my money where my mouth is (so to speak). I am a volunteer for an organization call Operation Gratitude we send care packages to the troops to boost their morale
I applaud your efforts, and I bow before you. You, like the men and women in Iraq, are a hero in my book. I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and – as a veteran, soldier, and human – will hold your name in the same esteem I hold the names of my living and fallen brothers and sisters.
I must, however, as you this one thing – if, as a soldier, I had to chose between someone sending me a care packet and someone lobbying my fellow Americans to show who got us into this mess, hoping the next commander in chief will not deny my request for a kevlar vest and more diplomacy instead of “bring it on <smirk>”, I would chose the latter.
My morale will improve in either case, yet having a psychologist on staff in my unit, a kevlar vest that could have saved so many lives, and the knowledge that “up there”, someone acts to reduce violence rather than dismissing it as necessary, might do even more the trick.
Don’t let your political opinions get in the way of helping our husbands, wives, brothers, sisters or sons. Who knows maybe someone will make a mozaic of the counless people who care (it’s gonna take a whole lotta pictures!).
If someone does, I will print it and hang it in my bedroom. There is a lot of good will and support out there, that can REALLY help our troops. You are one of those people. Flags on SUVs and “bring it on”, however…
It’s so sad …
This use of photographs can’t remotely be compared to the shame of President Bush using 9/11 as a backdrop for his ads. What’s more, this is exactly the kind of thing the administration doesn’t want America to see, which is why the press has been excluded from documenting the return of the wounded and dead. If you want to see coverage by a truly ‘free press’, look at the BBC’s reporting of the war both in Iraq and in military hospitals here (or refer to the network coverage of Viet Nam). Now that’s unbiased.
The sad fact is that people still equate supporting the troops with supporting the President. The troops have no choice, it is their job. Ours is to ask important questions. We fought a great war against a regime that didn’t tolerate dissension. Unfortunately the Republicans have never been very adept at planning wars, Grenada being their claim to fame. This war violates basic military principles, which call for contingency plans to be in place before the commencement of hostilities. Our Commander in Chief must at least be held to the same standards as a field commander. By that measure, even Eisenhower would have been relieved if he had committed such gaffs in WW2.
The real tragedy here is that poor leadership and our misguided efforts to impose democracy on a country that has never embraced it, will ultimately result in the deaths of enough of our men and women to require a mosaic of larger proportions.
I feel for all these soldiers because I too was a soldier for 25 plus years. I knew when I enlisted into the military that I may have to sacrifice my life for my country and would do so to preserve the freedoms that we have today. When I hear people complain about the lives that have been lost, it saddens me and doesn’t make the family of a lost soldier feel any better knowing that some of our fellow citizens are complaining. We need to honor those families whose sons or daughters made that ultimate sacrifice so that “WE” could live in a free country and express our opinions. We all need to sit back and enjoy what we have because of Soldiers like the ones above who weren’t afraid to sacrifice their life so we could live ours.
A very moving image. Regardless of what you think about war with Iraq, the lack of planning that went into the post-War period is scandalous. There is no doubt we are in a quagmire now: it’s a bad situation, but it will be worse if we leave.
It’s interesting that several posts below that seem to be supportive of Bush are inadvertantly comparing Bush to Saddam, Hitler, Milosovic, etc. I believe the Bush is in the same category as these ruthless and single-minded rulers. Bush has not made our country safer, he has not made freedom for anyone. He has ignored diplomacy, democracy, and has sought to wage war and make his friends rich at every turn. This war, like all wars since WWII (which was the last *real* war) is all about empire building, and was completely optional and has lined corporate coffers with BILLIONS of our tax dollars, along with the blood of people who are the true patriots – our soldiers.
The blood is on Bush’s hands and this image brings that point home better than anything I can think of.
First of all I want to say THANK YOU to our brave soldiers that have lost their lives as well as the ones that are still fighting and the ones that have came home. Not just anybody could do their job. This picture is really moving and it makes people sit back and think about everything that iraq is costing us. I wish Bush would let our troops come home and then come up with some kindof game plan and let everything settle down then go back with peace efforts. Watching the people of iraq celebrating over them ambushing a SUV and mangleing two of them so bad is something that we need to think about. Our Country is stronger than that but our Country is smarter than that too!
Really moving image. Thanks so much for posting it!
To Beau and his post # 16
Saddam did a lot of his killing with weapons we gave him, knowing he was not a nice guy. We gave him technology for the chemical weapons. Apparently we didn’t really worry about what he was going to do with them. And our soldiers who died did have questions. Mainly, “Why are we here?”
I wont to thank all the guys that have been in iraq fighting for us i have a brother over ther fighting for us we love you timmy
That would be a moving image… if it didnt have the face of Bush on it.
It’s Bush’s face that makes it moving, jp! How symbolic. This is really moving me. RespeKtion.
I am sicken when I hear about the invasion in Iraq. The 12 year of sanctions against Iraq caused 1.5 MILLION women and children to lose their lives. Holliday once said that this was a genocide when he stepped down in 1998. Remember, iraq only has 24 million people. To lose 1.5 million in 12 years is like america losing 20 million in the same time span.
If muslims did that to america (which I hope to god they never do), I would hijack a plane and crach it in mecca.
The only right thing that bush, cheney, powel, rumsfield, and ashcroft have done to this point is place saddamn hussien behind bars. Now they need to place themselves in the same jail cell as mr. hussien for the rest of their lives. And condi should have an adjacent cell.
I am ashamed of being an american right now. I am ashamed to see 500+ faces that will never be with us again. I am ashamed to see the thousands upon thousands of innocent iraqis dieing in their own country. We are losing the battle on terror. I hope that my brothers and sisters recogonize this and vote against mr. bush.
There have been some comments to the effect that the war in Iraq requires unquestioning patriotism as in WWII. Simple consideration of history will show there is no valid comparison between these conflicts. However even if one were to grant the comparison as valid (which I do not), it is interesting to consider that patriotic soldiers fighting and dying for Germany and Japan might have appreciated some dissent at home.
Dissent and protest are not unpatriotic.
Notice the comment #8, He calls everyone idiots, last time I watched the history channel I learned that Japan actually attacked us!!!I don’t remember Iraq doing that.
There have been 748 coalition deaths, 645 Americans, 59 Britons, five Bulgarians, one Dane, one Estonian, 17 Italians, two Poles, one Salvadoran, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and four Ukrainians, in the war as of April 8, 2004. The list below reflects the names of the soldiers, Marines, airmen and sailors whose families have been notified of their deaths by each country’s government. There have been 2,988 U.S. troops wounded in action, according to the Pentagon. This list is updated regularly. For a look at the casualties by age, gender, race and service branch, click here.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
I agree that the pretext for the Iraqi war (part 2) was poorly presented and probably based on false intel. However, the US does not have the luxury of becoming involved only when attacked. It’s a very different world today than in 1940s; no nation can hope to win in a military confrontation w/ the US (if this wasn’t true North Korea would have tried something by now – as well as a while host of others.) So if the US is never attacked, under what circumstances is it “appropriate” for us to become involved? Food for thought: the 10th anniversary of the Rwandan genocide was observed this past week: 800,000 people killed in 100 days, 8,000/day. Hutsie extremists were responsible for this tragedy (which, WWII buffs, has been described as MUCH more efficient butchery than the Nazi death camps in terms of deaths/day.FYI.) No Western nation intervened at the time, mainly because none were “attacked” by the extremist Hutsies. Is it “right” for a nation founded on the ideals of individual freedom and justice & which has the means to save even a fraction of those lives to stand aside and do nothing? (This is not a Clinton-bashing post – he did both good & bad things while in office & this situation came to light after the Somalia/Mogadishu debacle.) On a smaller scale, if you see a person getting mugged on the street and you can help, you will, right? Even if the possibility of your own injury or death cannot be ruled out? This is NOT a nation of such cowardice. A human life is a human life – it is amazing to me that people can get soooo upset about 600 soldiers dying in a war over the course of a year (people who knew DARN well that that’s a risk that comes with the job) but few people if any are outraged by the 43,000 civilian Americans killed in the last 12 months in car wrecks for no good reason. They say that nationwide seatbelt laws could save 12,000 peaople /yr. So why doesn’t someone make a clever mosaic of Bush’s face w/ pictures of THOSE dead? The answer is simple: people hate Bush for political reasons only & use the so-called “body-count” as an excuse. We as Americans should hold our leaders to task for crimes THAT MATTER – the Social Security/Medicare timebomb, an almost insurmountable deficit/debt crisis, irresponsible Congressional spending, government intrusion into our daily lives (privacy, anyone?) an incomprehensible and bloated tax code, and all the Americans who die preventable deaths… Al Quaida, Iraq, and terrorism are small potatoes in comparison.
I know far more people who’ve been killed in cars than those killed in Iraq or as a result of terrorism.
So be honest here: what ARE the most important issues facing America in this election year? And are any of the candidates focused on those issues? C’mon, give the REAL “George” a good answer…
Now if you could create one out of the over 10,000 Iraqi civilians that we’ve killed since our invasion – that would REALLY drive home the sad reality of war.
You really should credit the creator of the image. It’s Joe from over at American Leftist
http://amleft.blogspot.com/archives/2004_04_01_amleft_archive.html#108112087436221697
Dejah, I link to the source in the post itself. I’m mirroring it here because I think it’s significant and that site has had bandwidth troubles.
In response to “Beau”
Since you bring up the Saddam’s chemical attack on his own people, as a way of deflecting criticism of our moronic President, let me pose some questions :
1) What did Ronald Reagan, as President in 1988, do following Saddam’s gas attack on Halabja? (Answer: He vetoed a bill (The Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988) to impose sanctions on Iraq for its use of chemical weapons.
2) What was Collin Powell (then National Security Adviser) and Dick Cheney (then a Republican congressmen’s reaction? (Answer: Secretary of State Colin Powell orchestrated Ronald Reagan’s decision to give Hussein a pass for gassing the Kurds. Dick Cheney could have helped push the sanctions legislation but did not.)
2) Did George H.W. Bush as Vice President, or as President cut support for Saddam after the chemical attack, and before Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990? (Answer: Classified documents obtained by The New York Times show a long-secret pattern of personal efforts by Bush to support and placate the Iraqi dictator. Repeatedly, when serious objections to helping Hussein arose within the government, Bush and aides following his directives intervened to suppress the resistance. [Frantz and Waas, “Bush Secret Effort Helped Iraq Build its War Machine,” Los Angeles Times, February 23, 1992] .
3) Where was the public outrage of George W. Bush (the current President) at that time (Answer: He wasn’t
outraged, because Saddam was our ALLY at that time).
4) Why use these chemical attacks as a justification for war FIFTEEN YEARS AFTER IT OCCURRED? (Answer: because you need a rationalization to send hundreds of Americans to their deaths)
5) Where was George H.W. Bush’s outrage over the use of chemical weapons against Iranian forces during early 1986? (Answer: He wasn’t outraged).
6) Where was his son’s outrage? (Answer: See #5)
7) Why don’t you mention this in your excoriation of Saddam? (Answer: You probably weren’t even aware of it).
(see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/02/08_gassing.html)
“Comment by Beau — Wednesday April 7, 2004 @ 5:09 pm ”
I wonder if the same person who made this will do one of Saddam Hussein using the faces of all people of Halabja? On March 16th 1988 5,000 innocet civilians, 75% women and children perished in a Chemicla attack ordered by Saddam.”
> It’s interesting that several posts below that seem to be supportive of Bush are inadvertantly comparing Bush to Saddam, Hitler, Milosovic, etc. I believe the Bush is in the same category as these ruthless and single-minded rulers.
Except for the whole genocide thing… Regardless of how bad Bush is/has been at planning and carrying out this war, he doesn’t have evil intentions.
> Bush has not made our country safer, he has not made freedom for anyone.
Not made our country safer? Now, you can argue that our actions have provoked increased hatred (which is a pretty obvious and universal point… you can’t attack someone without making them angry), but he has greatly increased security. And he has brought freedom for the Iraqis…. has he not?
> He has ignored diplomacy, democracy, and has sought to wage war and make his friends rich at every turn.
I don’t think he’s in this for his buddies… is there any evidence of that?
> This war, like all wars since WWII (which was the last *real* war) is all about empire building, and was completely optional and has lined corporate coffers with BILLIONS of our tax dollars, along with the blood of people who are the true patriots – our soldiers.
Completely optional? Well, I assume that you would oppose any military action that is not necessary for the survival of the United States? Then I guess I’ll rest my point.
> The blood is on Bush’s hands and this image brings that point home better than anything I can think of.
Maybe I agree with you… but you’ve gotta put it in perspective.
I find it troubling… the division we have in the U.S. these days. The hatred of Bush is also troubling. I have never seen so much hate. I DID NOT like Clinton one bit but I certainly did not let myself get to the point of hating him. His White House shenanigans didn’t do us any favors, for our young people or for the world outside looking in. IMHO most everything that is being laid at W’s feet to handle now began while Bill was trying to get himself out of hot water… either Hillary or his real estate venture Whitewatergate. Personally, I admire W. for doing what he says he is going to do. He told the Nation that this would take time. It saddens me that when our country (troops) needs our support the most, that political sniping and negativity rule. Our society is the “I want it now” society. Roll in, defeat their army, roll out. It doesn’t work that way. Patience is a virtue and unfortunately a lot of the U.S. is not as virtuous as it once was. So we have been there a year and a Free, Safe, Secure, Democratic society has not been established yet? Oh yeah roll in roll out… In all honesty, look into yourself and ask yourself “how long should it take? How long did I think it would take?” A year is nothing in the big picture. Look at the growing pains our own country is still going through. I am sorry, very sorry for the loss of lives in whatever theater, and my heart goes out to the families and friends of those lost. I really believe it is not for nothing. I heard a letter (email) read on the radio from a Marine, written yesterday 4-8-2004. He said that the Iraqi people are behind them (us). That they cheer them and want to shake their hands when they are out on patrol, and that unfortunately, as it is here in the states, anything good, moral, or pro-U.S. pride or nationalistic is not to be reported… a minority can create a big fuss in the media so that it seems that what we are told and shown in the media is “the norm”. According to his letter the latest Fallujah violence is not the norm. He said they (the Army and Marines) do over 1700 patrol missions a day… A DAY. So yes the problems are there in pockets but for the most part Iraqi’s are starting businesses etc and enjoying what is so new to them… freedom. Lastly, I just saw a graph showing how many new jobs there were in March. Who could have kept a growing economy post 911? Not W, not Bill either. I admire Bush he makes me proud of him for sticking to his guns whereas Bill did not. And George Washington #40 I agree with your post.
Take care…
I am a Brit. I was and still am againt the war. Bush is a murderer. There has hase been no evidence to support his claims of “wmd” or that Iraq adied in 9/11. This sudden change from “search for WMD to make Arerica free” to “Freeing the Iraqi people” just stink of 1984, where the Party change history at a whim.
And also, I can’t see how attacking Iraq can help keep America safe. If killing thousands of innocent Iraqis, hundreds of soldiers, enflaming violence in the Middle East and creating a new civil war to deal with will keep America and the West safe, then well done George and Tony, I love ya!
Everyone knows that to keep control of an empire and to stabillise it, there needs to be a common enemy for the empire and the citezens to hate and fight against, whether it be eurasia, terrorism or eastasia, I don’t know. guess Bush attacked the wrong enemy.
I am impressed with the low numbers of person’s killed. I am also aware that it seems to be backfiring in that the lownumber of deaths allows each death to be much more personal and thus disturbing.
I wonder why none of the news organizations give a longer historical picture. Months ago a historian on a public radio station talked about the pressure put on Truman by the British to overthrow Iraq. When Britain had to set Iraq free because administrating coloinies had become too expensive, Iraq nationalized it’s oil companies. Britain wanted them back and wanted the USA to stage the coup. Truman refused, but in 1953 Eisenhower, the only Republican I’ve appreciated, ordered the overthrow of the new democracy. The first attempt failed, but the next day the USA operative was successful in getting rid of the Iraq leader.
There must be some 60, 70, 80 year old Iragi people who are aware of our long involvement in Iraq government. It certainly makes this a tinder box. In the mid 60’s it was my father’s opinion that the near East was the most likely spot for the start of the next world war. We need to be very evenhanded in Iraq to forstall the posinbility of a major war. I hope we are not too late. JW
to comment #38,
Iraq DID in fact attack us first. On the evening of March 17, 1987, an Iraqi fighter pilot in a FRENCH plane fired two FRENCH missiles at the frigate U.S.S. Stark in the Persian Gulf. The first Exocet’s warhead, in typical FRENCH fashion, failed to detonate. The second did explode, ripping a ten-by-fifteen-foot hole in the hull. Thirty seven sailors were lost that night. A request was made to two Saudi F-15 fighters in the area to pursue the Iraqi Mirage, but their controllers claimed no authority to allow them to do so.
R. Reagan and G.H.W. Bush responded to this action boldly and decisively. They immediately demanded that the evil, insane, and Hitler-like dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, lauch an investigation to determine the cause of this friendly-fire incident.
And they demanded he apologize, or we wouldn’t sell him any more helicopters or “dual-use” chemical manufacturing equipment for “insecticide”.
Strange as it may seem, I found very few people who remembered this incident at the beginning of Gulf War I, only three years later. By then,everybody knew that Saddam had always been evil. Must have been the damn ‘librul’ media.
Related to comments #17 and 50, I find it ironic that we read references to freedom of speech and “librul” media, when the US military shuts down a Shiite newspaper in Iraq. Were they publishing anti-American rhetoric? Most likely, but what kind of example are we setting for democracy when we silence the critics. Of course, what can we expect when the recorded public comments of a Supreme Court justice are erased by US Marshals (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/09/scalia.tapes/index.html).
George Bush and the entire Halliburton organization deserve to be tried as war criminals. Never have so many greed driven monsters been in the halls of power at one time. They are a disgrace to the honest and proud people of the United States.
I would like to make a small comment here. This may or may not seem obvious to anyone at this point, but the point should be made.
Why is it that Bush supporters do not leave an email address, a name, or a website?
I would like someone to fill in for that. Is it embarassment?
hugely sad pic. “freedom isn’t free” what a brainless comment from an obvious chickenhawk. I can smell them a mile away. love to wave the flag but never swore to carry it.
Veterans For Peace
Why is it that Bush supporters do not leave an email address, a name, or a website? I would like someone to fill in for that. Is it embarassment?
I am a Bush supporter on many issues – including the War On Terrorism and Operation Iraqi Freedom. The fallen men & women died while helping to shape the world into a safer place — attempting to secure the blessings of liberty for others, as was done for Americans centuries ago. Those who have died during the last year will not be forgotten – they are heroes.
And I *did* leave my name, address, and e-mail.
A stark reminder that war isn’t a video game, it is the loss of one person’s life, plus another person’s life, plus another person’s life, plus another person’s life …etc.
#47
Let’s keep partisanship out of this.. You really don’t want to compare the presidencies of Clinton and Bush.. seriously, you don’t.
Now, why do you continue to say that Bush “sticks to his guns” and “does what he says”? Its quite the opposite my friend. Bush said he would use war as a last resort. He did the opposite. Bush declared last May the end of major combat. 80% of the soldier deaths occured since then.
The problem is that too many Americans rely solely on the US media giants for their source of information. The great thing about the internet is that alternative news is easily accessible. IndyMedia , The Independent (UK), and if you like talk radio (alternative opinions of Rush Limbaugh) Air American Radio. I don’t think the American public is as dumb as many foreigners make us out to be. But far too many do nothing else but watch Fox news and CNN all day; eventually ideas like “no way to prevent 911”, “war in iraq is going swell”, and “protesters are unpatriotic” get force fed into your minds, and the same people subsequently come to rehash what they heard on TV here on this blog.
welldone!
Little David was in his 4th grade class when the teacher asked the children what their fathers did for a living.
All the typical answers came up — fireman, cook, policeman, janitor, journalist, salesman, doctor, garbage man, lawyer, etc.
David was uncharacteristically quiet, so the teacher asked him about his father. “He’s an exotic dancer in a gay cabaret and takes off his clothes in front of other men and they put money in his underwear. Sometimes, if the offer’s really good, he’ll go home with a guy and make love with him for money.”
The teacher, obviously shaken, set the other children to work on some exercises and took David aside, asking, “Is that really true about your father?” “No,” said David, “He works for the Bush
administration, but I was too embarrassed to say that in front of the other kids.”
After all we’ve been thru as a Nation, Isn’t it sad we have to keep doing it again and again…..Bless them all, and those to fall in the future.
What is GW doing on his ranch on “vacation” while there is a hostage situation with 30 hostages representing the Coalition forces, including americans, being taken?
Is this the image you want of a president “doing his job”??
I think not.
Next, while we are talking honestly here about some of these recent issues, I will seek to remind America about the GULF WAR 1 VETERANS.
We need to build Another Wall – next to the Vietnam Memorial (with the names of 58,191 dead and mia) – for the Gulf War 1 Veterans who, every day, are quietly passing away from illnesses acquired from their service in Daddy’s war — as of 2000, over 12,000 deaths….
And yet nobody wants to talk about those Gulf War 1 Veterans.
Where were they on the CNN and main news channels while the drums were beating for war??
HIDDEN. HIDDEN FROM PUBLIC VIEW.
AND BEING DENIED APPROPRIATE MEDICAL CARE BY THE VA AND DOD FOR THEIR ILLNESSES.
WHY?
BECAUSE IF YOU, AMERICA, REALLY KNEW WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THESE GULF WAR 1 VETERANS,
YOU WOULD NOT HAVE STOOD FOR THIS WAR.
YOUR IGNORANCE AND LIES ARE ASTOUNDING — ESPECIALLY TO THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVED YOUR COUNTRY AND ARE BEING DISRESPECTED IN THE MOST DISGRACEFUL WAY.
FRONT LINE – FOOT SOLDIER VETERANS KNOW WHAT HAPPENED – DETONATING CHEMICAL WEAPONS BUNKERS 12 FOOTBALL FIELDS LONG IN KAMASIYAH WITH WEAPONS THAT SAID “MADE IN THE USA” —
YES, THE USA MADE THEM — AS RUMSFELD MET WITH HUSSEIN, THANKS TO THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION —
AND THESE FRONT LINE SOLDIERS STOOD UNDER THE TOXIC CLOUDS OF BIOLOGICAL WEAPONRY, WEARING T-SHIRTS AND SUNGLASSES, HAVING THEIR PICTURES TAKEN…
ALL HAVE DIED FROM HIDEOUS BRAIN CANCERS FROM THE TOXIC FALLOUT,
AND YOU, AMERICA, IN THE MEANTIME WANT TO “LECTURE” THE PUBLIC ABOUT “SUPPORTING THE TROOPS”???
GET REAL.
YOU ARE THE ONES THAT LIE — AND LIE OPENLY AND LIE RIGHT THROUGH YOUR TEETH (WHICH WILL END IN THE BACK OF YOUR THROATS ONE DAY SOON)
ABOUT SUPPORTING YOUR VETERANS.
AS YOU NEVER HAVE — AND THOSE BRAVE GULF WAR 1 VETERANS — 12,000 + AND COUNTING DESERVE TO HAVE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT FOR THEIR SACRIFICE —
A SACRIFICE WHICH YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND.
AND UNTIL YOU REPUBLICANS SEND YOURSELVES TO THE FRONT LINES OF COMBAT AND SEE WHAT WAR IS REALLY LIKE,
I SUGGEST THAT IN THE NEARBY FUTURE WHEN CIVIL WAR BREAKS OUT HERE AT HOME THAT YOU TAKE YOUR KIDS AND YOUR PRO-WAR SELVES AND GET DRAFTED OR ENLIST.
ENLIST BECAUSE YOU LOVE GW SO MUCH AND TRUST HIM.
WELL, IF YOU TRUST HIM SO MUCH, BE OUR GUEST, COURTESY OF GULF WAR 1 VETERANS — GO ENLIST AND COME HOME SICK AND SUFFER THE WAY THEY DID.
THEN MAYBE — JUST MAYBE — YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE CRUELTY OF YOUR IGNORANCE.
— A PROUD GULF WAR 1 VETERAN AND ADVOCATE AGAINST OCCUPATION OF A FOREIGN COUNTRY WHEN WE TAKE AN OATH TO PROTECT OUR LAND HERE AT HOME — NOT TO OCCUPY FOREIGN SOIL.
Allow me to enter the fray with my thoughts.
I make no apology for my support of our President George Bush and his efforts to fight terrorism and to disarm Saddam Hussein.
Let us not kid ourselves with this image, you had a partisan political message that you wanted to espouse and so you did ..at the expense of our brave, men, women, both young and old.
If one of those in your mosaic was a member of my family, I would personally sue anyone I could for the use of their picture, in the furthering of your own political beliefs.
You are not unpatriotic to disagree.
You have a right to say whatever you want to say.
You can speak out against the president of the United States of America, with your falsehoods, half-truths or downright lies.
That is what these brave soldiers, whom you have shamelessly used in your political statement signed up to do.
IF ANYONE IS ANGRY, THEN LET IT BE THEM?..AND THEIR IMMEDIATE FAMILIES.
I think there can be no misunderstanding that our political beliefs are different as well as what it takes for America to survive in these times we live in still I think you?ve got it wrong, and I’m not afraid nor ashamed to speak out about it.
I’ll just not use the pictures of men and women, who JUST MAY NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ESPOUSE!
In fact, let those who are going into harms way, speak out.
Polls have shown us time after time, that our military men/women overwhelmingly support our president and the war efforts??..as well as the majority of American citizens.
You are liberal, which means you are a democrat don’t be ashamed of what you are, even though some of you have tried to escape that mantle still you are liberal and liberals think anyone that believes other than how they believe are stupid and need liberals to think and act for them??.
Where are the families of these brave men and women who have been unwillingly fitted into your liberal leaning ways to make a statement, which they may not have agreed with?
Now, I will address certain comments throughout the posts.
#12 S.W., who must believe that everyone has a right to express themselves and their beliefs and I suppose, supports the shameless depiction of these brave men and women in this picture as though they agree with this argument??yet, he calls someone ignorant, because what they see, read, watch and believe are something different.
Once again, we see the absurdity of the democratic party which is always crying ?we have a right to disagree???.yet when someone does it, they are condemned as ignorant.
S. W., you sound so superior when you tell George, I think it was, ?you might want to crack a book?.
Well, I?ve cracked few of our history books and they are filled with references to ?chinks, spics, kykes, wops, huns and niggers?.
Whether you like it or not, it?s part of history??..unless, of course I?m sure you liberals would love to change it, nonetheless, it?s written.
#20. My friend S. W. again is simply wrongheaded!
No one says you don?t have a right to call yourself an American, QUIT WHINING!
We say you shouldn?t use the images of the dead to condemn a commander in chief, unless you their permission.
You said, ?its not the party, it is the idea that matters. America is not a political party it is an ideal built upon ideas.?
What rock did you crawl out from under?
I believe you insinuated someone was ignorant???.?
There are 2 political parties in America and they are what runs, rules and determines the future of America with THEIR IDEALS.
And you are simply wrong when you write, ?it is an ideal built upon ideas?
No, it is a country, founded and built upon the constitution of the United States.
Good ideals and good debate??.good men and women who are willing to sign up to defend and protect their nation at the command of their commander in Chief.
You must really think that all soldiers are stupid and can?t speak for themselves.
Why not speak about what you know and let them, if they are unhappy and disgruntled speak for themselves?
Quit whining??.no one is ?dismissing your ideals??.aren?t you speaking your piece right now?
We are simply doing what you say we have a right to do??DEBATE THE ISSUES!
You are so condescending with statements ?do it with the brilliance of your thought not the stigma of your label.?
Why is it, that you think everyone is stupid or ignorant that doesn?t agree with you?
Why is it, that you insist they answer your stupidity with brilliance, which you yourself allude to have, by using a few fancy words, yet your argument is filled, simply with your own beliefs?
With dripping sarcasm, I say, ?Wow, your really brilliant to believe that everyone should see life like you do!?
#26. Mr. Brodey, your wrong.
The troops do have a choice, not one of them were retarded when they signed up for the military. THEY MADE THEIR CHOICE AND KNEW THAT POSSIBLY THEY MAY HAVE TO GO AND FIGHT AND POSSIBLY DIE!
You have the audacity to speak about planning a war?
Oh, yes, I?m sure FDR had a contingency plan when we were attacked at Pearl Harbor.
And I?m sure that Presidents Kennedy and Johnson had good plans.
And President Clinton had a good plan when he bombed the baby food factory. (Which I supported him against my republican friends for this action).
The facts are.
Nixon got us out of Vietnam.
George H. Bush got us out of Iraq once and left it in the hands of the United Nations to finish?..WHAT A JOKE!??and silly people want us to put it back in their hands again?..so they can push paper again, while thousands of people die!
All you liberals think there should be some kind of end game for a war??and we are still in Germany??after how many years of planning, work and war?
The fact is, there are just some things you can?t plan.
32. Dan???.how dare you speak for the dead!
Give us proof, that ?our soldiers who died did have questions. Mainly, ?why are we here?.
I CALL YOU A LIAR????.BUT I WILL ASK YOUR FORGIVENESS SHOULD YOU GIVE PROOF OF YOUR STATEMENT!
I anxiously await to read your proof!
#36. If your ashamed move, no one’s stopping you!
Even in our worst days of America? I’ve always been proud to be an American and of the country I live in.
Because we, like no other country in the world, will right our wrongs, though it may take some years and some heartache.
Like no other country in the world we have given to help every nation in the world.
#48. RG, the Brit
We are thankful for your opinion, but we don’t live in Great Britain, we overthrew your tyranny, many years ago.
We are happy being Americans now and I hope you are happy being “Brits”
So let’s keep it that way!
You take care of over there..and we will take care of over here.
Just remember, you would be speaking German, if it hadn?t been for my grandfathers and uncles.
You state “Bush is a murderer”
Please you’ve overloaded on fish and chips and the monarchy?
Yes, if anyone knows how to keep an ’empire’ stable, it should be you guys.
#47. And John, how is it exactly that 9-11 could have been stopped?
And where is it, that it was written, besides by you that war in Iraq is going swell.
I’m sure in the recess’s of a deluded democratic mind but I?m willing to see your evidence unless it comes only from between your ears.
So, is the war wrong?
Depends upon your political leaning.
Is Protesting wrong?
No.
Are those who disagree with the war unpatriotic?
No.
It?s America and we have a right to disagree and speak our piece and that?s what we are doing here??even on this liberal web site, that has shamefully placed the pictures of our dead servicemen in the middle of their own political beliefs without their permission as if those who died would agree, when in fact, I think that the majority of the military would take the opposite opinion if what you have espoused.
Respectfully,
John
Post #23 by Jonas M Luster was extremely moving, and touched me as much as the mosaic does.
Everyone who is posting about “freedom isn’t free” and who mistakenly thinks that things such as this mosaic somehow “hurt” our soldiers should read his post.
Thank you Jonas.
“Freedom isn’t free”
While these men and women are dying in Iraq, we are losing our rights to freedom of assemby, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of religion…
You say that freedom isn’t free. I say, “what freedom?”
-Abbie
If we do not win in Iraq, regardless how we got there, we will have to fight these extremist muslims on our land. Do you want that? The war in Iraq is necessary. Unfortunately men get killed. But, more men and women and children will be killed in *OUR* country if we do not stop these maniacs.
I don’t understand the arguement for ‘freedom’. If Iraq needs freedom, then why not Rwanda during the slaughter there? How about any other countries that have the same issues right now? What about soverignty? Who has the right to decide to invade someone elses ? Unilaterially?
It’s all questions that have an obvious answer.
It made my hair stand on end. The body count numbers don’t make it sink in just how much completely needless suffering there has been, how many families have been torn.
I really liked the mosaic.
I have been building a memorial of my own to the casulties in the Iraq adventure. When I started to work on it, I wanted to make an overtly political statement about the Bush Administration’s foolishness. But I also wanted to build a memorial that would allow those on both sides of the issues to be able to come to it and literally come face-to-face with a part of the cost. Ultimately I have just posted a photo, name, age, unit, hometown and cause of injury for each casulty along with two poems and the title that simply states “In Memory of those who died in Iraq.” I have put it on display at the last three weekly peace vigils in West Hartford, CT and it has been well recieved. My goal is that I would like to have 100 similar ones built and on display across the country by Memorial Day. More about this can been seen at the following two links: http://www.tariffville.org/iraqmemorial.htm and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iraqmemorial . The Yahoo group will shortly have the MS Word file and construction plans. Please view the Group and post a comment there if it is appropriate.
Those who see it bring their own perspective to it …. but …. they must acknowledge it … which should open a crack in the psyche of the pro-invasion viewers where they would need to stop and say “Its sad but it was worth it because … because … now why did we do this again?”
No matter what your personal opinion of our acting Commander in Chief, no matter what your political affiliation, one thing is unchangeable at this point. The pictures depicted here show a very harsh reality. That reality is that every one of those faces, and the responsibility for their deaths, is on the head of one man. Does anyone honestly think that this man sleeps well at night holding that responsebility? Whether or not you like the man, ask yourself this question; Could I make the correct decision given the same circumstances, and would my decision be supported by everyone, or even by the majority of those millions who depend on everything I do. As you critisize his decisions and damn him as a man, ask yourself what resposebilities you take to bed with you at night. How would handle the task of deciding whether you should send american men an women to a foriegn country to fight for “ANY” reason, whether good, bad or indifferent, knowing that untold numbers of them would not be coming back to their families alive? And how would you handle the consequences if you failed to act in this situation and that your failure to act, cost hundreds, thousands, or even millions of lives. It’s quite convienient for you that you have the luxury of sitting back and passing judgement since you are not saddled with that responsebility.
Reagan – Clinton – Bush, no matter which one is, was, or who will be president in the future, there will always be those that dislike them. It comes with the job. But who of you could do it better? And who of you thinks that any person with the desire and ability to be elected president of the United States of America, would take that office without the intention of bettering the lives of americans. Would you? The person in that position shoulders the burden of the problems of every american citizen and is looked to for the solutions. Could any one of you carry that burden. I couldn’t, wouldn’t want to. The last time you screwed up, was the whole world watching and waiting to judge you?
Emotionally devastating. So many young men, women whose families will never see them again.
All for Oil and Israel’s security.
What a waste.
I feel like I’ve been kicked in the stomach.
I haven’t found him yet, but one of my former students is in the mosaic. His name was Josh Hurley, a graduate of Virginia Military Institute, where I teach. It broke my heart to learn that he had died, a very sweet kid who helped finance his education in ROTC, was commissioned, became a combat engineer and died when his Humvee hit a roadside munition. I used to play basketball with him twice a week for nearly three years. Always had a smile on his face, never cursed, never got angry. I have other former students there now and I worry and pray for them all. I supported the war because of the WMD claims, but now we know that it was a big con game. We’ve spent $100 billion, lost over 600 dead and over 3000 wounded and the end doesn’t seem in sight. Sad and infuriating.
In reply to Mr. Paul Lacourse comment number 66. We have radicals of every persuasion in this country as it is. A few more of Muslim, Christian or Purple People Eater bend is not the problem. We have men women and children in this country who die every day at the hand of thier fellow citizens. Thats alright though isn’t it? So long as they were our own and certainly not a muslim or foreinger its just another day at the office. We have problems we refuse to face such as an education system that gets teachers for the lowest bid, cancer, AIDS, homophobia, racism of every incarnation, sexism, fanaticism, and a slew of mind twisting double standards and social pressures that warps our children into striving for some “perfect” that does not exist and not one of those things was imported from Iraq. And, yes I’m going to say it… Niether were the twisted individuals who killed themselves in 9/11 because they believed they were right. Iraq is not the problem. The people whose hearts are twisted by hate are the problem. If we hate them back we become as twisted at them… and then we have truly lost the war. You’re so worried about the women and children here, but you forget that women and children exist and have been killed in Iraq. Oh wait… they’re not ours so its ok, right? Just a sad side effect of War that ~they~ have to deal with and mourn for, right? And on top of that they’re probably not Christian either. So who cares.
Concerning the picture itself: I do not personally see it as a work that points a finger at Bush… though that may have been the intent of the artist. I do not know what s/he intended or what it meant to them. All I know is what I take from it and that is that no matter how you feel about our commander in chief, the use of the images, whatever it is a statement of historical fact. Records are kept of the people who die in war and the date coincide with things like Christmas, Joe Shmoe’s getting a promotion and who happened to be President at the time. Whether the President was wrong or right these men and women who gave thier lives are connected to him and his time as President. Its like me thinking of WWII and not thinking of Hitler and in turn Normandy and by association my grandfather. I see this image as a matter of fact statement of something we have no real contol over. People will think of thier son/daughter/friend/etc. and think “they died doing A and Mr. B was president at the time.” Its not so much about blame as it is about the mark that will be left on history.
What a sad comment……….any one of those people was worth more than 100 bu$hs. God save us!!
AS of April 9, 2004, there have been 753 coalition deaths, 650 Americans, 59 Britons, five Bulgarians, one Dane, one Estonian, 17 Italians, two Poles, one Salvadoran, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and four Ukrainians, accprding to CNN.
George W. Bush has yet to appear at the funeral of any. No proper reception has been given to any of the dead heroes arriving at Dover. The tens of thousands of Iraqis dead aren’t even considered as human deaths by our authorities.
I don’t see any pictures of the relatives of George W., Dick Cheney, Daniel Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, and all the rest of the administration, plus the congress people in the mosaic. Nor of the Democratic Party’s apparent nominee for president. Of course, some of them served in previous wars.
Cut the crap Republicans. If you’re not pissed off, you’re not paying attention. Bush always does the opposite of what he says he’s going to do when it has to do with helping anyone beside his corporate cronies.
G.W.B. says his favorite philosopher is Jesus Christ. Can anyone imagine Jesus whispering into Bush’s ear…”Ok, here’s how you take care of the terrorists…kill them all and don’t worry about the innocent people you kill in the process.”
“And here’s how you help the poor, the sick, and the elderly…bankrupt government social programs by giving outrageously huge tax breaks to the weathiest 1 % of Americans who don’t need it and hope they’ll reinvest it.”
Republicans…you win the award for Head in the Sand.
Signed by a proud liberal ashamed of our appointed emperor who has no clothes. [actually the clothes on his back cost as much as many Americans make in a year. Many of them found themselves in G.W.B.’s war in Iraq because it was the only decent paying job they could find. Do you think his kids will volunteer for the front lines? Can you say class war?]
One final comment. I wasn’t a big fan of Clinton but can anyone seriously tell me that a lie about a blow job that didn’t get anyone killed is worse than the multitude of lies from W. about why we invaded Iraq?
Dear God, please make the Bushies go away.
Many people don’t realize that the 500-600 death count (American soldiers only) EXCLUDES US soldiers who are wounded in Iraq and die later of their wounds. If such Iraq-war casualities were included, the number of deaths would be closer to 1200 American Soldiers.
I think it’s another travesty of the Bush administration that they do not recognize and count those ‘delayed’ Iraqi-caused deaths.
Bush isn’t Republican. He’s Corporatarian.
These are Bush’s corporate One World Order private soldiers, not ours. They do not defend our “freedom”, they do not defend the Constitution and they sure as hell don’t defend our homeland -witness 9/11. They, along with Bush do the bidding of the Illuminati who have always financed both sides of every war including our Revolution. They print our money in their private Federal Reserve Bank and charge interest that will never be paid off–they own every one of us. When they form the “American Union” next year we will all officially be their slaves and will have the same economic, social and political status as any other 3rd world country. Bush and his military have sold all of us out–every General and Admiral has been bought and paid for and no longer have any interest in defending the people of this nation because that does not enter into the equation. Get it?
I am moved by this mosaic; yes, but not in any “patriotic” way! I am insulted that someone thought it in some strange way appropiate to use photos of dead soldiers to compose this soul-less man’s contenance!!! It’s revolting! The blood of these young people is on his hands, and on the hands of all his OWO cronies!
Boys and girls do you duty. You have a choice. Maybe you would like a photo of the three thousand murdered by Bin Laden at the Towers? Wake up America. The President of the United States of America is doing his job. His job is not to roll over and play dead for the Islamics like Clinton did. His job is to protect and defend this nation. The Generals who planned D-Day were willing to sacrifice 10,000 American lives to get a toe-hold in Europe and put an end to Hitler. There is a price to pay. If you won’t pay it, get out of the way and let others do it for you. Those young men and women gave their lives in a noble cause. They hold a place of honor in American history. We will not forget them. May God Bless and Protect America.
Should have used pictues of dead babies in Iraq. Then they could have made portraits of the whole administration.
Strange there are no children of the policy makers among the dead in Iraq…Even Al Gore served in Viet Nam. And Iraq is turning out to be yet another Viet Nam. Don’t we ever learn? if the US troops withdrew and were assigned to make the USA impervious to attack (9/11/01) the cause would be better served. When the Sunni and the Shiites are joining forces, having been enemies forever, against the USA, then we must withdraw. And do it NOW before more Americans pay with their lives for Bush’s re-election war.
To all those pointing out Saddam’s use of chemical weapons against the Kurds:
Do a little research. You may be surprised to find out which country (and political party) helped put Saddam into power, armed his regime, provided the “crop-spraying” helicopters….and then after the atrocites, vetoed a UN resolution that sought to condemn the chemical attacks.
I am an Arab and I am grateful for George Bush administration for showing the Arab and Muslim world the true face of imperialism. This is not about spreading democracy in a third world country. It is simply greed and colonialism.
Many years ago, my grandfather (who fought in WWI) told me only old men should fight wars. Then the old politicians would be reluctant to send soldiers into battle. It is so sad that so many young men and women have died because an old man (George W.) was obsessed with finishing something an older man (George H.W.) started. It is even sadder that the resolution of this mosaic is certain to improve as the situation in Iraq degrades.
Somebody wouldn’t be editing the comments to take down the ones that excoriate the producer of this mosaic, would they? Naw, that would be childish. Surely he is so firmly on the side of God and the angels (or deity or non-deity of your choice) that there could be no better proof of it than to let dissenting opinion stand so that everyone can see how wrong the whiners are?
Right?
This isn’t democraticunderground, right?
Bush is a realist – He understands that “Peace” is the woerse enemy of the United States Government. With peace
at hand what would happen to all the Bases and the Military Personel around the world, not to mention the so called Defence Industry. Let’s be realistic, the only reason for being in Irak is Oel. I fail to understand how any
person, specially christians can vote for such a despicable cretin. You cannot not fight terrorists with conventional armys, period.
The best of intentions don’t mean a thing unless put into action. Everyone would like to see more liberal govenments in the middle east , especially in Iraq considering their political history, but how is this communicated to the people when their movements are restricted, they are arrested with no charges being laid for months before being released with no explanation about why they were arrested in the first place, and a government with a majority of politicians who were exiles for 20-30 years and largely unknown to the citizens . The previous way of governance(excluding Saddam) cannot just be torn down and replaced that easily because it is a reflection of the culture as a whole. Governments do not shape the character of the people, more so in democratic societies as the polititians activley court the populations support , but are reflections of common culture and community. We can’t be speaking to the iraqi people about freedom if we are also killing their women and children. How would you feel in their position?. How can they trust that we really want to help them?. If the deaths of 3000 americans is a day of mourning for the world, how can the deaths of over 10,000 CIVILIANS( not including iraqi soldiers or insurgents or the wounded) , be considered a liberation by the people who still suffer the casualties of that freedom?.
My oldest son-not yet 21-fought in Operation Iraqi Freedom. He told me when he got home: “Dad, it’s a stupid war, on behalf of an ungrateful people.” Please, please, please join me in bringing change to America in November, 2004. Keith Hubbard, Boones Mill, VA
“Does it take a death to learn what a life is worth?” Jackson Browne
Those men died so all of you would have the right to complete about our great president’s polices. Let’s see if the person who created this has the guts to create one of Saddam out of all the Iraqi’s that he killed or one out of Bin Laden made up of the 9-11 victim’s. Wake up and smell reality all you liberals!!!!
Amercian Bad Ass meant to say “complain” instead of “complete” but was completely right!!
For those of you who agreed with this mosiac and disagree with Bush’s polices, look at this website:
http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html Now are you awake????
“Our great president’s polices”
His policy was to lie to the world about weapons of mass destruction that do not exist.
His policy was to break UN Resolution 1441, and invade Iraq after they disarmed.
The reality is 670 Americans are dead, for a war that’s end did not justify its means.
Means : “And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein’s support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.” – George Bush http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030322.html
End: No weapons were found or destroyed. The people of Iraq are not free in their own democracy, and Saddam Hussein never supported the terrorist groups who attacked the United States.
Yes, Saddam did kill, yes Saddam did maim, but two wrongs will never make a right, and this war was wrong, because lying is wrong and breaking UN Resolutions is wrong.
I am not an American. I’m from Northern Ireland, which over the years has sickened me by the way a tiny minority of narrow-minded, uneducated, prejudiced idiots have managed to project the image to outsiders that my country is infested with stupidity, just because it is they who make the most noise. What I see from America, a country which I hold very dearly in my heart, a mecca (oops!) for all things cool, free and righteous, is that you guys are now suffering from the same problem, albeit on a much larger scale, and one that could bear devastating consequences to both your own country and to everyone else’s. Let me tell ya if you can’t already see- Good ol’ U.S. of A is no longer the land of the free. By that I don’t mean to offend, I’m just stating a fact which, thankfully, most Americans already know. Don’t believe me? One word- Florida. Ring any bells?
Yes, you CAN indulge in open, honest debate, but that privlege is not exclusive to Americans. From Canada to Cameroon, from Japan to Jordan, from Iceland to Israel, people sit in cafes and bars openly voicing their opinions.
And its a free world to do so, so long as you dont rattle the cages of THE POWERS THAT BE. Governments everywhere try to influence their people. Its what keeps their wheels a-turning. But when they wield unlimited money, power and influence on their country’s media, this is known in the business as PROPAGANDA, a nasty ailment thats very difficult to cure.
So be good Americans, stand up for what your country is supposed to represent to the rest of the world, dont
be complacently fooled into thinking yours is the only free country in the world- cos it’s slipped way down the
rankings. I dont care too much for politics, but I’d hate to see Bush and his band of greedy, brainwashing corporate facist cowboys get re-elected, cos I dont think America or the world could stomach another four years of their lies.
So when you vote, do what you see right, but dont trust electronic voting machines. They tried them in Ireland and there was uproar cos they’re so easy to scam, and we know who’ll be the ones to turn it to their advantage!
May democracy prevail in November, and God bless (The real) America!!!
In the Agatha Christie book, Ten Little Indians, (also titled “And Then There Were None”) various profiles of murderers are given. 10 of them, in fact. Each committed a different ‘style’ of murder. One of the murderers was a veteran of World War I….. and the person he murdered was a soldier serving under him. He sent him into battle into a situation that was impossible for him to escape. Nobody suspected it was murder- nobody KNEW that the young man had been having an affair with his wife… but Agatha Christie, back in the 1920s, when the book was written, classified the unnessary sacrifice of a man in wartime as a MURDER.
So do I. These men were murdered; for gain, and profit. I believe Agatha Christie would agree.
In her novels, the murderer is always found out and exposed; I believe real life will catch up with Bush in this way also.
Also, those that say “look at how many people died in World War I! World War II! Vietnam!” You’re just rationalizing. A death is a death is a death… and they are all unavoidable, and unexcusable. CNN did a story last week on 5 soldiers who were recently killed at age 18…. do you think that because 40,000 soldiers died at age 18 in vietnam, we ought to wipe out the equivalent number, just to equal that total? Do you think it makes it ANY less horrific to the families of those 5 soldiers?
No… all life is precious. All unnecessary death is wrong, and lamentable.
And to those of you who DO compare this war to vietnam, know that it is starting out exactly like Vietnam did. The first three years of vietnam saw only 300 fatalities… and then escalated… and escalated… We have already passed the mark of 3 years in Vietnam. War is seductive.
Another thing proving war is seductive is the fact that we might have avoided World War II altogether if Theodore Roosevelt had not pushed so hard for an unconditional surrender from Germany after world war I. We were so angry at them, so upset, and so intent on making them PAY…. (What Teddy Roosevelt was urging) that when they offered peace talks in 1917 we wouldn’t have it. No, we had to CRUSH THEM AND THEIR ECONOMY. Which lead, of course, to deep depression, financial crisis, and… the rise of Hitler.
No war is unavoidable. World War II wasn’t, but we were so stupid, we decided to push the German people down so low that they couldn’t really get back up again… without following the dreams of a madman. Whoops- hello Atomic bomb and nuclear age.
Perhaps it would have been more appropriate if this had been the image of SH or OBL ?
It is a shame people should waste their time compositing political attacks at the expense of others.
Just one word to the guy who is talking about halabja. Go and ask Rumsfled who gave saddam the capability of chemical weapons and the green light to use them the way he wants and against anyone he dislikes. Maybe you will be disappointed and then surprised to know the answer !! saddam was just the actor who played halabja and others scenes, the real criminals were his producers and directors !
This is particularly saddening for me, as one of the people in the mosaic (2nd row from top, 15th from the right) was a friend and classmate of mine, Matthew Milczark of Moose Lake Minnesota. And if a new one is made, with more faces added, yet another friend and classmate of mine will be included in that mosaic too.
How long will this keep going on?
(1) What evidence is there that the photos in the montage are actually photos of members of the military who were killed in Iraq?
(2) What are the sources of the photos?
(3) If the photos are genuine, did the publisher obtain permission to publish the photos? If not, why not? If so, from whom?
(4) It is noted that there are far more photos than there are casualties. This is deceptive. Why the deception?
Lastly, a comment: If the photos that are not duplicated to fill out the picture actually are those of casualties, this is an example of the extremes to which some will go, regardless of the pain that they might inflict, to assert a political point. Those who are responsible for its publication should be, but I think are not, ashamed. There are some in our society who believe that, so long as they are righteous, can, without censure, do anything at all — however distressing to their victims.
Pictures are from here I think: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
Very good work. It moved me to tears. GWB will not be getting my vote.
Sweeeed-a
71 – wake up
I’m an Israeli – I still remember the first gulf war and the scud missles that landed in here during one month.
your argument of entering this war for protecting Israel is thick, ignorant and deluded.
Let the reasons of entering gulf war I be what they may – the patriot missles America posted here is gratefully
what helped us defand against that …but let me remind you that iraqui attacks on Israel started after the war began.
Now don’t get confused…let me remind you or anyone who may aggree with you that world terror/Al quaida has allready became a well established reality all over the world –
Remember september 11th? the terror acts in Indonesia ? the bombing in Madrid last month?
no more blaming the Israeli – palestinian conflict on any attrocity that strikes the world.
88 – as a former soldier in the army – I couldnt agree with you more
I think using the dead to make a picture/political statement is pretty tasteless and trivializes their families suffering, however I believe the question Why Did We Go To War In Iraq?is a valid one that should be examined more closely. Here are the reasons I’ve heard, first 3 are the official reasons given by the US & UK governments.
Number 1. 9-11 / defeating �terrorists�There is absolutely no evidence that Iraq was in any way linked to AL Quida. In fact there’s a lot of evidence, from speeches by Bin laden himself to views expressed by people familiar with the region that Al Quida and Saddam Hussein were mortal enemies. Bin Laden wants to have a strict Islamic nation, and dictators, esp. ones who are “western” and suppress Islam in their own countries are definitely the antithesis of that. Additionally Bin Laden wants more of the wealth of a these countries to go to the general population, rather than a handful of “westernized” strong men, as was the case in Iraq with Saddam (and which is also the case in many countries in the middle east). Please understand, I’m not trying to justify Bin Laden, but its important to understand that there’s NO CONNECTION what so ever between 9-11 and Iraq.
Additionally, there’s very little evidence to suggest that there was any terrorists supported/present in Iraq under Sadaam. Again, I’m not trying to justify Sadaam, just explain the situation.
Unfortunately, for every innocent Iraqi bystander killed by the US in Iraq, there’s a pretty potent seed of hate towards the US and other “coalition” countries being sown. If anything, this leads to the world being less of a safe place (at least for US/Europeans/Japanese) than before the war. Our actions in Iraq are creating terrorists where there previously were none.
To get back to the main point, just about anyone familiar with the region knows that there’s no links between terrorism and Iraq, so this can’t have been the reason.
Number 2. WMD As it now turns out there were no WMD in Iraq, but this couldn’t be guaranteed before the war. However, enough other countries, from Iran and Pakistan to North Korea HAVE WMD, so its remains a mystery why these weren’t also attacked? Of course, now that the actual “evidence” that was used to justify WMD claims is being exposed as seriously tenuous at best, one has to conclude that WMD wasn’t the main reason why we went to war.
Sadaam’s a bad guy, OK everyone knows hes a complete evil psycho, but he’s not unique in this. Evidence from Putin’s brutal suppresion in Chechnia to Kim Ill Sung starving the North Korean people prove this. So the reason for invading Iraq can’t be just Sadaam.
Here are another couple I’ve heard form various sources
Revenge for Bush seniors “defeat”? Bush Sr. set out to do what he wanted to do (free Kuwait), and although he had to deal with Sadaam then hurling insults at him after wards, I don’t believe this could have been a motive for taking whole countries to war (at least I hope to hell it wasn’t).
Oil I don’t know enough about the world oil situation to judge this, there may be some validity to this argument. If this is the case I just wish that they’d have said �Hey everyone, if we can’t get cheap oil, our economy will crumble and you’ll all be unemployed and the country will go to hell so we have to go to war to protect our interests�. This would have been easily understandable and would have made the reason clear from the beginning. I should point out I don’t see anything particularly objectionable about this, without oil western economies would go down the tubes and people in modern industrialized countries (of which I am one) standard’s of living would dramatically decrease. However, if this is the reason then I really hate being lied to and treated like a numbskull (see first three reasons listed above).
Maybe access to cheap oil isn’t the reason, and there’s some other explanation (maybe Bush/Blair just wanted to go down in history for having done something?).
Anybody have any other suggestions (and, please no aliens/UN black helicopters/ Jewish conspiracy theory crap).
JB
Very creative. How moving. Photoshop and a mosaic of photos apparenty used as an oblique indictment of the president.
At 160×200, the number of PIXELS in this photo represents close to the number of American casualties in southeast Asia during the last four years of the Johnson administration. If LBJ had attended each of those funerals for one hour, sequentially, that time would amount to four straight years.
Now, some would try to make an image of President Bush with a mosaic of the 3,000 killed in the 9/11 attacks.
Any meat eaters out there? PETA would probably make a beautiful likeness of your own face from images of the thousands of slaughtered cows that you’ve ingested.
Oh, that eeeevil president with his greedy motives: blood for oil, tax breaks for the wealthy while millions of poor American kids starve to death, taking away all of our privacy, and exporting millions of high-paying phone sales jobs. So many causes out there. Let’s see some really creative photos now, folks – perhaps naked bods on hillsides spelling out slogans denouncing imperialism.
So many people could do a much better job as president without putting American soldiers’ lives at risk for “nothing.” The whole world hates us, or wants us dead, for not leaving those harmless, misunderstood, despotic regimes alone. And the United Nations has done such a wonderful job dealing with them.
We’d be so much better off if only we played nice, didn’t “put those murderous regimes in power in the first place,” rolled over and exposed our bellies, and listened to the campus intellekshuls who study such things and know what’s best for us.
Wake up to your OWN conscience. Stop being “moved” from your center by contrived images, and start being motivated by your own Creator-endowed common sense. Start with how you react to the fascist regimes within your own family. If everybody did, NOBODY would be subject to the Saddams, the Osamas and the Hitlers.
What peace and freedom that would be.
Now you need one for Conde Rice, and Dick Cheny
Just a comment on the creation of the mosaic: Nobody spent thousands of hours carefully arranging pictures, nor is there any deception intended by the duplication of some images. Mosaic images like this are created by a program which analyzes the desired picture for color, brightness, etc., then picks images out of a collection supplied to it which match the color values of that part of the source image. There clearly weren’t many images that were mostly white — primarily some black-and-white photos — so there’s a lot of duplication in Bush’s collar. On the other hand, there were a lot with much the same skin tone as Bush, so there’s a lot more variety on his face. Nothing mysterious or sinister about it.
There used to be a lot of big talk from the right about being responsible for your actions.
So why are these GOP monsters passing on the cost of their war to a generation that
hasn’t been born yet? The responsibility talk must have been nothing more than a way
to convince stupid shallow people to vote for them. It worked. It will work again in November.
I am very sorry that soilders died and I pray for the families of the lost love ones, but these soilders have faith in there missions and died for our freedom present and future. Yes I support the President in this war and even if they never find any weapons of mass destruction it was still worth going in and taking Saddam and his VERY evil sons out or out of power. Any one that is trying to act like a hippie from the 60’s and 70’s need to get a life and a job and stop spending time slamming our President with this mosaic. I don’t think anyone can fatham what it takes to run a country and protect the very freedom you take for granted.
Here are the names behind those faces…
“There have been 777 coalition deaths, 674 Americans, 59 Britons, five Bulgarians, one Dane, one Estonian, 17 Italians, two Poles, one Salvadoran, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and four Ukrainians, in the war as of April 12, 2004. The list below reflects the names of the soldiers, Marines, airmen and sailors whose families have been notified of their deaths by each country’s government. There have been 3,269 U.S. troops wounded in action, according to the Pentagon…”
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
I have a cynical yet probably very realistic vision of George W. Bush snorting cocaine during his supposed National Guard service, and tapping his toes merrily to the Kinks’ song “Some Mother’s Son” on the album “Arthur”……..”and all dead soldiers look the same….”.
If there is a God, George W. Bush, you do not stand in very good favor with Him or Her or They. “I know real christians, Mr. Bush, and you are not a real christian.”.
David A.
Bush is the first responsible for the deaths of all these soldiers
don’t you think Saddam was only a decoy to grab iraqi oil to hide the need to conquer an important political and geographical area of the middle east?
you have got a very large visibility having been link to the homepage of a major italian newspaper
see if this blog can receive comments to see what other nations think of US at war
Like the victims of 9-11, seeing the faces of the young men and women who have died in Iraq (almost wrote VietNam) makes them all the more real to me. They’re just not names anymore; they’ve become sons, daughters, husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers, cousins and I grieve for them all.
This is utterly ridiculous. Lame
Dear Andrew,
since you proved to be so good at math, it might ALSO be worth mentioning, that if you take the pictures of all the soldiers and civilians from other countries and the iranians who have already died you can probably build 30 or 40 faces.
Maybe Dubya Bush would like to be in his ranch right now. Completely Drunk. Maybe he’s a good men. Maybe he’d like to go back to fix things of his life. Maybe he doesn’t want anymore to be the president.
He’s the son. Coming after the Father.
Do you realize USA is like a third world country (where the political power is transmitted as a dynasty)?
USA is simply an oligarchy masked as democracy.
And Kerry is the expression of the same oligarchy.
May God have mercy of you, American people. Your future is so dark…
Good picture. Anyway, Dear American People you are living the war conflict consequences; so stop now your crazy president please.
I am Italian and we must stop his toilette man (Berlusconi); yesterday I have read BIBLE CODE 2 – Countdown written by Michael Drosnin a very disturbing book. America and Europe people have to change its political world actions ASAP in order to avoid an apocalypse.
why don’t make the same mosaic with the photos of the people killed by saddam? guess you need some web space, but with some millions of photos you can do a pretty nice job.
oh, but maybe you’re not able to find the photos.
such a pity.
Fodder. that’s what anyone who volunteers for, or is some day drafted into the armed services has become, in the minds of those who make military decisions for this, or any country. This country is founded on ideals? Get real. The day that progressives realize that complaining about their government’s failure to live up to “American Ideals” is about as useful as waiting for pigs to fly, we’ll all be ready to really effect changes. What are we really complaining about, in terms of the Iraq adventure? I, for one, of course wish that our country would be willing to stand on its own feet, economically speaking, without feeling the need to steal resources from others around the world. The US has had a policy of stealing resources since its inception. Oh yeah, the price of gas would go up, and the giant pretense of credit-based affluence would go up in smoke, forcing “ordinary Americans” to finally face the facts that Jimmy Carter tried so bravely to point out 25 years ago: the world must be allowed to attain economic parity, and that necessarily means that Americans will eventually not be living like kings relative to everyone else.
make a picture with people from Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, Perù, Ecuador, Colombia, Uruguay, Bolivia etc etc and for the scope choose any american president (toghether with his american soldiers) from any period of the usa history.
We fought Iraq over oil? If that’s the case, why doesn’t Bush just blow the whole middle east apart? Saddam aided the terrorists, don’t kid yourselves!!! Those who died in Iraq willing joined our armed forces knowing this possibilty existed. You insult their memory by pushing your anti-bush, anit-war agenda. what an insult to them by posting their faces like that.
Our President is a christian and he is a good man. The majority of the military respects him greatly! This so called mosiac is done in very poor taste and with too many faces. We have not lost that many people!
Maybe there should be a collage of the faces of the people of the world that these brave souls
sacrificed their lives to protect!! Don’t you people get it? This is war to protect your sorry asses
and these people and their commander deserve your respect.
peace in the world!
pace nel mondo!
paix dans le monde!
Although completely suppressed in the U.S. media, the answer to the Iraq enigma is simple yet shocking. The upcoming war in Iraq is actually an OIL CURRENCY war. The Real Reason for this upcoming war is this administration’s goal of preventing further OPEC momentum towards the euro as an oil transaction currency standard. However, in order to pre-empt OPEC, they need to gain geo-strategic control of Iraq along with its 2nd largest proven oil reserves. (This is a long essay). If you are interested read it in detail at: http://stlouis.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=4710&group=webcast
All we are saying
is give peace a chance
Why put Bush’s mug in it? he is the one who sent them over to be killed.
I don’t like looking at his beady eyes.
Wake up! The world isn’t perfect and if we keep to ourselves and pretend that we live in this great peaceful world, then we will still have attacks on us. Many people in other countries don’t like the way we live and we will have more attacks just like 9/11 or the USS Cole. We could be like Clinton and turn our heads the other way. My husband is a Marine and chose to go to Iraq and I am very proud of him.
Bush sent them over there to give YOU your freedom!! Most of those men respected Bush!
Unfortunately, if you used the pictures of iraqians women and children killed by that man, you would not need to use more than once a single picture.
Maybe a mosaic of the 3000+ who died on or due to 9/11 making an image of Osama. But then that would not be a cut at W, so why bother.
Every life is sacred, every death a tragedy. Goofy. I doubt you will mourn over Adolph. And what threat was Nazi Germany to the US when we went to war with them? FDR very much had Germany in his sights well before we declared war on them; a bit like W and Iraq. W simply should have said so and let people debate that issue. I think he got bad advice on that one.
The Fallujans are a threat in that if they scare off the tremulous hand wringers in America, they will accomplish the same thing as the Beiruti’s who blew up our Marines, the gang who blew up the Cole and Khobar Towers, who blew up our embassies (and killed LOTS of black africans, but then who cares if they die) and who chased us out of Somalia – they become convinced that we are rubber kneed and that they will prevail. We have been at war with these clowns since 1972 (remember Munich?). About time we actually fought back.
They will continue to attack us, a war is unevitable- so should we have fight the war here on our soil, would that make you happy???
It is not correct, with the 15.000 dead iraqeni, would have succeeded in also composing the face of Cheney and the whole Bush administration
Unfortunately, however, of the civil corpses iraqeni we don’t even have the photos.
To us, Western, they doesn’t interest.
🙁
Bye
Il GecKo
Sicuramente non si può giocare con le vite di quei ragazzi morti, in una guerra di BUGIE e MENZOGNE, in una guerra che è stata voluta mandando militari a combattere per liberare un popolo che non vuole essere “LIBERO”… , solamente perchè la “LORO LIBERTA'” è un concetto che non riusciamo a capire. Abbiamo mandato migliaia di militari per poter controllare il PETROLIO Iracheno… Altro che armi di distruzione.
BUSH A CASA…. BERLUSCONI A CASA.
Truly moving. And to those who answered with the usual drivel about the importance of “fighting terrorism,” let me point out that Iraq and Saddam Hussein had precisely NOTHING to do with terrorism in general or 9/11 in particular. NO Iraqis were on those planes, NO link was ever adduced between Iraq and al-Qaida, and NO (repeat after me — NO NO NO NO) weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq. In fact, the war was and is nothing more than a distraction from the REAL war against terrorism. And I think I know whereof I speak; I work in the US Intelligence Community.
If one was to make the mosiac out of the Weapons of Mass Destruction Found we would have a blank picture.
I am sure almost everyone would agree that Saddam Hussein needed to be moved from his position of power. However, the true Texas gunslinger American way prevailed… Screw diplomacy… shoot first then find the incriminating evidence.
to the people that are happy to be able to speak their minds in a “free country”, to the people witing for a “saddam photomosaic”, to all the people in the US in general, I say: yes, you are free to speak your mind, at least so it seems, but have you ever thought that all the people in the world that cannot speak and is killed or exiled because of the way they think or speak is killed and busted by people the CIA itself put in their places of power? and it’s not late history, it’s like this since WWII. remember the legally elected president Allende, assassinated by CIA money because he was a “communist”, think about who put the money to allow Saddam Hussein in charge of iraq, think of who was playing golf with bin laden’s father in his ranch, think about cambodia, somalia, ustica in italy, the “GLADIO” plan, “P2” in italy, the “desaparecidos” in south america, the contras in nicaragua, vietnam, think about John Lennon, Martin Luther King, think about the junk you eat in the US, think about the new energy sources nobody wants developed, think about ex jugoslavija, did I mention vietnam? enough of common places one last word. think about why most of the people in the whole world, before realizing the tragedy of the deaths in 9-11, and mourning after that, shouted in the first moment “hurray, at last THEY get their deaths at home too”. it’s unhappy, and it’s tragic, all those lifes lost, but remember when you say that you are free to speak your mind that after all you are only free just as long you don’t harm the power that shuts up us all in the world with the iron fist, it would shut you ap too if you were a real danger to the empire. this is all family business going on here, and we, the people, the world people, don’t count ANYTHING as long as we just speak. try doing something real and THEN come forward and say you are free…
with love
P.S.
the picture is amazing, moving and meaningful. A+
yeah
I think saddam hussein was to be moved from his position of power no more than the real threat to world security Goerge W Bush, and also, IMHO, the United States of America have been the most dangerous threat to world peace since WWII so far. the US have fought the nazis and the japanese empire during that war, and in the 50 years after they just learned from their enemies, especially the nazis, and put into practice what they learned. ANYTHING that happens in the world that is truly against freedom has the CIA involved somehow, EACH and EVERY THING.
to the guy who posted “all we are saying is give peace a chance” I say: I was in union square on october 2001 and at a peace demonstration a guy popped up with a huge sign saying: “give war a chance”. this is US for me, US people have a “not so clearly voted” criminal coward in charge, no surprise they turn their looks away from that looking for criminals abroad…
When Saddam was at war with Iran and killing Iraqi Curds, the USA well supported him and fuelled the war (and Rumsfeld cordially paid a visit to his ally..).
When Iraq is in peace and weakened by years of sanctions, USA bombs, invades, fuels another war, creates chaos and devastation in order to take control of a sovereign country with 11% of the world oil reserves…
Well done Lords of Wars and UNITED STATES OF GREED keep making profit out of other people’s misery but be careful you don’t choke one day in your own dollar arrogance!
On the same note… Bin Laden was once allied by the U.S. This was back when Russia was the enemy…
War on a sovereign state will only spark more anti-war movement. As GWB should have noted before sending our troops off to this ‘venture’ we were acting alone. After the 9-11 strike America had sentiments from other nations that were not necessarily seen as ‘friends’. Over the past year feelings and sympathies of other countries have dramatically changed. We are no longer viewed as an innocent party.
Revenge on the wrong party is how I would describe the Iraq conflict. Iraq did not have the power nor the money to support the Taliban. In retrospect Bin Laden has more money in his wallet than the whole Iraq Nation has in savings.
Could this be a ploy for reelection? Who would vote G.W.B out of office in the middle of a conflict?
Maybe it is time that America wakes up and realizes that these soldiers have died for Israeli interests in the Middle East. There is no way that Iraq posed any kind of threat to the United States. But not so for Israel. The United States has been taken over by Israel.
Looking at this image, I have the same feeling I had when I saw the Viet Nam Memorial in Washington. A terrible feeling of loss grips me, and I say, “A loss of life – for what?” These men were to be the future leaders of tomorrow, and now they are gone.
In my language: poveraccio
In Engligh : poor man. he is too stupid to understand what life mean
mr bush: “something essentially vulgar and meanspirited in politics”
Saddam Hussien posed no immediate threat to the United States or its allies, but George Bush choose to wage war and because of his actions those soldiers are dead.
Add to the mosaics those innocent Iraqe people, including children who died and got crippled during this unnecessary war.
For every atrocity that Saddam Hussein perpetrated on his people, I could cite a U.S. equivalent, like Wounded Knee.
For every atrocity that Osama bin Laden perpetrated on New York or anywhere else, I could cite a U.S. equivalent, like Dresden.
Stop supporting our pitiful excuse for a president….just because he’s never read about past U.S. injustices doesn’t mean he hasn’t got the motive or opportunity or the weaponry to carry out mass murder. If you want to start citing scripture, ye mindless neocons, don’t throw stones at Saddam while your own president resides in a glass house of your and his making.
I hope American people to find the courage to see through Bush administration lies and face the disturbing truth: they’re deep involved in 9/11 attacks, they were the ones that supported Saddam’s Kurds genocyde, they are planning (years now!) this terrible scenario in the interest of the very few… We’re all in this together, so DO something!
My retarded neighbor can make a mosaic of anybody’s face with those pictures so, what does this prove? What is the purpose? Does it solve anything? No, its just meant to stir up emotions and cause a negative response from all of the sheep out there that that are too DUMB to think for themselves so they take the easy road and follow everybody else.
People this is an election year and that is what motivates this kind of stuff. Wake up, think for yourself, make informed decisions and instead of bitchen and posting BS pictures let your vote speak. Simple, STOP crying and sniveling like a bunch of babies and stop the finger pointing and let your voices be heard. (REGARDLESS OF YOUR POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS). GOD BLESS AMERICA where we STILL have the FREEDOM to speak out and be heard. AMERICA is STILL the GREATEST country in the world and I am proud to be an AMERICAN.
I served (2) tours in Nam and know firsthand what it is like to be behind the 8 ball of an administration that ties your hands. But I did my time for this GREAT country and am STILL PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. HOOYA!
People wake up and stop listening to all this cry baby B.S. Its a shame that these people had to die BUT their lives should be celebrated and they should be revered as HEROS not remembered as statistics.
E’ un’immagine impressionante ma purtroppo vera!
We must be grateful to this soldiers who died for our freedom in this terrible war against the evil of mulsmim religion
*Mr Bush, how can you sleep at night? *
GIVE PEACE A CHANCE (already heard those words???…hmmm strange…:-S)
I think President Bush is a nightmare scenario for the American people and for all the world, too.
Purtroppo la logica della guerra e’ oggi vincente in politica. Visto che il Presidente degli Stati Uniti puo’ decidere per il resto del mondo allora voglio avere diritto di voto. Voglio votare per le presidenziali americane.
Un cittadino italiano.
Let’s really hope that American people open their eyes and push him back to his ranch in Texas !! (from Italy)
I think that war is always the worst thing to do, this world needs peace! Because there’s real people that die and the president don’t care so much about this, politics never care about the peolple but always for their own interests.
message n.8 says “look History channel instead of Mtv”, I say read some books…
I really hope that american citizens will look back in their recent history and understand that most of wars of the last 50 years were made by americans, directly or indirectly. Think about Cile, Panama, Nicaragua, Iran, Corea, Vietnam.
What is freedom? Freedom could be everything but for sure it is not oil and dollars.
Great photo.
There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted
motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of
totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that
one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings
of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any
means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely
against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule
condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of western
countries.
George Orwell
I saw information about this mosaic in the site of italian newspaper La Repubblica. I made a link at once. I interpret this mosaic as a homage to the brave soldiers of United States who have died in Iraq. Now we know the business scandal about the mercenaries that are in Iraq. Some of them are in hostage. Why does Paul Bremer prefer to his personal defense the 450 operative guards of Blackwater security consulting? This is an outrage to american soldiers.
as tacito said: they made a desert and called it peace. stop war
if you kill a lot of people you’re called “seral killer”. What about soldiers?
If those pictures are true, I miss in that mosaic the Spanish soldiers and journalists assasained in Iraq, 192 people killed in Madrid 11-M, the Spanish policeman died when terrorist blew themselves up, all the Iraquian civilians perished under US bombs. THEY HAD NO CHOICE, THEY HAD NO CHANCE.
SPANISH SOLDIERS BACK HOME, SOON!
che tristezza. sadness. sadness. sadness. Bush & Berlusconi, together hey can go to war. but without anyone else
the people who died in the iraq war were serving their country. not bush.
I’m Italian, but I’m afraid to see so many soldiers died only to satisfy the mania for conquest of a mad man. I hope this could be a lesson for all people that like power and conquest. Already many italian soldiers died, we hope this war could finish without other useless corpses.
Sono morti anche per consentirti di fare queste cose da uomo libero. Lasciali in pace.
Io mi chiedo come può dormire una persona che ha mandato in guerra dei soldati con delle prove false. Prima hanno armato Saddam e finanziato per i loro scopi, e poi hanno mandato dei soldati per abbatterlo.
If those pictures are true, I miss in that mosaic the Spanish soldiers and journalists assasained in Iraq, 192 people killed in Madrid 11-M, the Spanish policeman died when terrorists blew themselves up, all the Iraquian civilians perished under US bombs. THEY HAD NO CHOICE, THEY HAD NO CHANCE.
SPANISH SOLDIERS BACK HOME, SOON!
This is disgusting…people like you deserve to live under Saddam
People like me? Oops! I am defending life neither dead nor Saddam.
You are The Disgusting One.
SPANISH SOLDIERS BACK HOME, SOON!
Amaricani….GO HOME!!!
Caro Stefano……questa è l’America, o per meglio dire, questo è l’opulento occidente, dove qualsiasi cosa si faccia, la si fa in nome del mercato e della propria convenienza….altro che democrazia…altro che libertà….buffonate da bacheca; parole di cui la gente si riempie la bocca perchè non ha altre argomentazioni serie a difesa dei propri misfatti. Ci si dimentica poi molto spesso che democrazia significa anche e soprattutto garanzia di vita per tutti e non, come credono i padroni della guerra, libertà di fare i propri porci comodi a scapito delle minoranze; questa non è democrazia ma POTERE!!!
Our President is a christian and he is a good man. The majority of the military respects him greatly! This so called mosiac is done in very poor taste and with too many faces. We have not lost that many people!
Comment by Lacy
Se il presidente americano è un cristiano allora il 99,99999999% della popolazione mondiale andrà all’inferno….eccetto lui, naturalmente!
One guilty for thosedied soldiers…
Let’s take that picture as an occasion to reflect on the insanity of using war as a means of resolving conflicts – much less as a means of gaining control over the destinies of others – be they ever so condemnable in our minds’ eyes.
A bush non importa nulla nè dei militari nè dei civili che vengono uccisi quotidianamente in questa guerra creata a tavolino contro l’Iraq. Inoltre il popolo americano è così ignorante che probabilemente voterà di nuovo per bush e sarà la fine del mondo libero.
Così come a al nostro Berlusca non importa nulla degli Italiani che sono morti e potrebbero ancora morire il Iraq, tanto non sono suoi parenti, non è coinvolto in prima persona….e poi, diciamocelo chiaro, a parte le ipocrisie solite e devastanti….ma a chi può fregare, a parte i famigliari, se i 4 rapiti in Iraq vengono ammazzati? Non erano certo lì a raccogliere margherite, bensì a rompere i c….
X Gabriella: La nostra salvezza è che questi potenti hanno creato un mondo che, anche qui dove si sta bene, non è più a misura d’uomo, il disagio cresce…Non potrà continuare a lungo così il mondo ma io credo che dopo sarà meglio, non peggio.
I’m 53 and still like to live as much as possible, because life is “ONE”.
I cry for those young victims, who had their dreams truncated, and not only them, my tears are also for the thousand of civilians who died or , worst, who are living mutilated or burned or suffering for ever . Most of them are just kids, we should think about that! I don’t think that anyone of us would like to be part of that mosaic, especially once, we all know the “no” reason of this war. What make me worrying is that there are thousand of people ready to be part of a mosaic of bin laden or al sadr. This gives us an idea of the power of manipulation we are victim of.
IRACHENO PICCHIATO A MORTE DA SOLDATI USA. Un iracheno è morto dopo essere stato picchiato da soldati americani con il manganello, perchè si era rifiutato di togliere dalla sua auto una fotografia del leader radicale sciita Moqtada al Sadr. Lo ha reso noto oggi la polizia irachena secondo la quale l’uomo era stato arrestato ieri sera dai soldati Usa che conducevano operazioni di ricerca in una strada del centro di Kut
Questa è l’America delle libertà……
Sarebbe come se un Italiano portasse sulla propria auto la fotografia di un proprio concittadino, e militari non italiani, ma USA lo ammazzassero di botte….non avreste voglia di rompere il culo a questi militari che spadroneggiano in casa d’altri?
no peròavrei voglia di rompere il culo a quelli che srivono notizie false e faziose, senz’altro…..viva la pace e i culi rotti?
Ah! intendi Bush e Blair….beh! si, sono daccordo con te!
You may wonder why lot of italian comments here? Well an italian news web site, anti-american and pro islamic terrorism linked this site………
Perchè i signori del nostro governo che hanno deciso di coinvolgere il nostro paese alla “liberazione” dell’Iraq [più per servilismo che per lungimiranza], non mandano i loro figli a combattere in Iraq ?
forse non hanno bisogno di soldi.
Se fosse stata una guerra portata avanti per liberare il popolo Iraqeno, sono certo che gli iraqeni avrebbero capito e accolto ben diversamente le forze americane; ma visto che è ed è stata fin dall’inizio una guerra per usurpare il petrolio iraqeno (e Bush l’ha detto a chiare lettere nella sua ultima conferenza) e umiliare un popolo intero (così come fu in Vietnam) allora è chiaro che gli amaricani, come allora, dovranno fare ora, tra 10 o 20 anni le valige e tornarsene a casa loro; è probabile che quei poveri diavoli morti per una causa ben diversa da quella per cui combattevano sono troppo pochi ancora per il governo americano affinchè tolga le tende…mah! capricci dei potenti!!
A tutti gli Italiani che hanno contribuito.
Complimenti. Siete giunti su questa pagina grazie a Repubblica, che ha irresponsabilmente mostrato il link del blog.
Sia ben chiaro: so che siete parziali lettori della solita, vecchia sinistra Italiana. E siete di sinistra per il solito, vecchio motivo (anche diventato luogo comune): la vostra percezione di “ingiustizia” nei vostri confronti. E’ arrivata l’ora che vi diciate (almeno la verità). Poichè la vostra condizione personale (lavorativa, personale) è presumibilmente non di vostro gradimento, si sceglie di schierarsi con la presente sinistra. No. Vi state sbagliando: non sono un berlusconiano. Ma nemmeno uno della “vostra” sinistra.
Per vostra informazione (giacchè non sono certo che sappiate leggere in inglese), le foto dei militari US morti (anche per voi, accidenti) sono disposti a rotazione nel mosaico. Il numero totale – quindi – non è uguale a righe per colonne.
Ma lasciamo pure stare questa premessa.
La scelta – senza permesso – di costruire un’immagine siffatta, con tutte le conseguenze del caso, è disgraziata. Così come chi la appoggia.
English, brief version of what I just said in Italian:
Most Italians that have just posted here, come from present Italian, disgraceful left political side.
While I can not speak of other countries’ left political parties, I can assure you, that current political Italian left party is (and has been) a disgrace for our country.
And no, I am not one of Berlusconi’s voters. I am politically speaking, centered.
I find it also disgraceful to have composed such a politically meaningful image, disrespectful of those soldiers’ will, thoughts, motivations, and their families’.
Shame on you.
How sad. I wonder how Bush feels. Probably doesn’t care since it isn’t his family that has to suffer loss. He claims to be a Christian, but doesn’t seem that way to me. God Bless all the families who has had to suffer for his mistakes.
Sono morti per noi? Sinceramente io ho molta più paura adesso che qualche anno fa; poi per cosa sarebbero morti? Per liberare l’Iraq da Saddam? No, visto che la maggior parte sono morti dopo; o forse i circa 20.000 mercenari al soldo delle multinazionali combattono per i miei interessi? Non credo, visto che io guadagno 10 volte meno di loro e non ammazzo nessuno, mentre loro si ingrassano di soldi assassinando gente che non conoscono nè personalmente nè culturalmente; o forse le multinazionali presenti in Iraq stanno costruendo la pace anche per me? o non è forse il caso di dire che ingrassano i loro portafogli sulla pelle della povera gente? e tanto ancora ci sarebbe da dire…ma a che serve, chi vuol vedere vede, chi si ostina a vivere di illusioni e ipocrisie, continui pure a farlo, che ne sia pienamente coscente però.
Many of you have the naive idea that the rest of the world “needs” protecting by your country. America is busy sticking their noses into the politics of the world and making enemies wherever she goes. Most of the rest of the world is trying to fix their own problems first. USA is now looked upon as warmongers. You should all be ashamed of your president for fighting a war for oil. No WMDs, weren’t you after Osama? And god get a clue. I farking hate America. I hope you get what you deserve. Most hated country in the world is a damned good start.
Poi una cosa non è chiara e non lo sarà mai….combattere l’ipocrisia, le guerre inutili, i massacri significa essere di sinistra. Dunque, chi non è di sinistra è un assassino? Federico, non è certo questa l’equazione……quindi qualcosa che non va nel tuo teorema c’è.
Esatto! L’America deve sempre mettere il naso negli affari del mondo intero…deve proteggere….è un pò come quelle mamme che non fai un passo che te le ritrovi, scusate il termine, in mezzo alle palle; ma non è forse il caso che l’America si veda gli affari propri interni e rompa un pò di meno? Nessuno ha bisogno del suo aiuto….o meglio…se in Iraq si fosse adottata una politica di forte aiuto economico, Saddam da un bel dì sarebbe stato gettato alle ortiche dal popolo iraqeno stesso; ma siccome gli obiettivi dell’America erano ben altri, ecco spiegati i miliardi e miliardi di dollari gettati al vento e le tante vittime umane inutili ad una causa veramente democratica.
The point is…. Who cares about Saddam Hussein? he wasn’t a big issue for me!
He wasn’t a danger for the US, and I don’t really care about freedom in Iraq.
Saddam was a F*****g diktator, and so? Our enemy is Bin Laden, not Saddam, not Arafat, not Gheddafi, not anybody else.
What’s sad is that those soldiers lost their life for nothing.
By the way…. Italian guys, please write in English, conversation would be much more interesting, thanks
This is a brillant work of art. It deserves publishing in some very prominent place. That it is on the web is nice but EVERYONE needs to see this, even those without internet access.
Very moving picture. But if I was George bush and my face was made by the troops I sent out to Iraq, I would feel bad. To know my face makes the troops that have died for our country
Two quick points.
1. “Canadian Girl” (#199), I agree with you to a point, but why do you “farking hate America”?
Don’t you realise you’re being just as stupid and naieve as all those right wing neocon assholes with your
sweeping generalization? Your point is valid, just don’t taint the righteous movement with these kind of comments.
And America deserves freedom from facism, not retaliation for its dictatorship.
2. “lorres”(#202), These guys are speaking in Italian because they’re from Italy. The communication system we are
using is known as the “world wide web”, therefore people who are not American can also use it. Are you confused?
I appreciate that Italian is their native language, but I don’t speak Italian and I’m not sure what to do about the comments. I moderate for vulgar profanity and such but there’s no good way for me to know what’s in those comments, and whether or not they are appropiate to this discussion.
Many thanks to the italian newspaper La Repubblica! I saw information about this mosaic in its site. I made a link at once. I INTERPRET THIS MOSAIC AS A HOMAGE TO THE BRAVE SOLDIERS OF UNITED STATES WHO HAVE DIED IN IRAQ. They had ideals! But now we know the business scandal about the mercenaries that are in Iraq. Some of them are in hostage. These mercenaries try to be rich in a short time! This is an outrage to the dead american soldiers. Why does Paul Bremer prefer for his personal defense the 450 operative guards of Blackwater security consulting? They are mercenaries! BUSH AND BREMER SHOULD BE ASHAMED!
Andrew & George Bush, Don’t worry ! if the war continues, the creator of the photo will be not needing to re-use the same picture twice.
My liberal sister-in-law who forwarded this to me as well as our mother-in-law who had 5 brothers all who served during WWII is now back on my shit list. She has the misguided notion that blitzing me with liberal drivel will some how sway my vote this coming election.
What this mosaic represents for me a a Photoshop nerd with too much time on their hands and a giant lack of respect for the familys of these fallens soldiers – none of whom I’m sure DID NOT give their permission to use their images in this insulting and degrading manner. I expect the president’s image to be used against him in the media, but give our troops both serving our country or taken from us some respect.
STOP ALL THE CRYING, WAR IS WAR PEOPLE STILL DIE FROM IT. IF YOU CANT HANDLE IT THEN GET OUT OF KICHEN AND SHUT UP. I DONT CARE WHAT HE SAID SHE SAID BULL. WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY OR WHAT EVER. WE ARE A SUPERPOWER AND THE BIG DOG. YOU DO WHAT WE SAY OR GET YOUR ASS BUSTED PLAN AND SIMPLE. IAM TIRED THE RIGHT WING FOLLOWERS WITH THER POOR THEM ATTUIDE. THESE PEOPLE SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE TO FIGHT (BUT I JUST WANTED THE MONEY FOR COLLEGE). WHO EVER IS GOING TO BE IN OFFICE THERE IS NO GOING BACK NOW, TO BACK DOWN NOW WILL ONLY CAUSE OTHER COUNRTY TO DO WHAT THEY WON’T WITH US BECOUSE WE WONT FIGHT BACK. LOOK AT ALL THE BOMBINGS THAT WERE POINTED AT US IN THE LAST TEN YRS, I DONT THINK I NEED NAME THEM ALL DO I. WMD ARE THEY THERE OR NOT WHO CARES. DONT TELL ME THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU BEEN LIED TO GET OVER IT. AT LEAST GW IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU DONT DO SOMETHING NOW 3000 PEOPLE AT THE WTC BE A LOW NUMBER THE NEXT TIME. I KNOW I HIT ON A LOT OF SUBJECTS BUT JUST HAD TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THEM IN MY SHORT AMOUT OF TIME.P.S. TO ALL THE BLEEDING HEARTS FEEL FREE TO RESPONE IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH ME (pgruich@peoplepc.com)
“E’ arrivata l’ora che vi diciate (almeno la verità).”
E diciamola questa verità, caro Federico: tu hai dei grossi problemi con la lingua italiana.
Ricordati anche che le virgole non si mettono a caso, neanche quando scrivi in inglese.
Ok. Lemme explain something to you here. The people we are fighting go around in cililian clothes, hide behind women and children, and specifically attack targets that are primarily inhabited by civilians. Just look at the train bombing in Spain. We have not fought a war yet in which no soldier has died. With war comes causualities. Sure, it is sad that people have to die for the cause of freedom, but every one of those faces enlisted in the military by their own free will. Every one of those people knew that they could be in danger. Anyone with some concience would pray for those families every day. Instead of trying to convince the president to draw out, we should become more determined to wipe out these cowards. If we choose to let them scare us, they have won. And if they see that we have no backbone, then they will continue their attacks. I’m sure that all bush-haters have their own ideas of what could go better. But here’s some food for thought, even John F. Kerry said that it was too late to draw out.
My son is in the British Royal Navy. He came home safe. We need to have pride in the valour of the boys in this picture but not the of the image they create.
Pete (#210)- you are a paranoid, psychotic fool. Do us all a favor and either grow some brains or join the army.
Just a question: where did G.W. Bush during the Vietnam conflict? Was he showing his superior courage on the frontline? No? How strange…
None of you have any right to bitch until you have served over there…let the boots on the ground tell you what they saw. “de oppresso liber”
It is not the time to criticize the govenrment. Its time to show that we have the resolve to defeat the barbaric people who are our enemies. If you don’t like the administration, then go to the booth and vote. If it doesn’t come out to your liking.. try again in 4 years. We need to stand behind the president no matter the outcome, even Kerry will have to defend the USA against the evil barbaric nuts that hate us. If Kerry wins, he will quickly learn the degree of hate that these people have for us. It will not do any good to pull our troops out and become isolationist. They are going to continue to attack us until we no longer walk the face of the earth. We must present a unified front and erradicate the evil in every possible way we can unitl they no longer have the energy or the want to harm us. By putting down Bush and his administration, you are just causing more americans to die. It emboldens the enemy to fight harder. Quit complaining and bow up your chest and stand strong against them, don’t fear them.. we are more capable of destroying the country from within than they are from the outside looking in.
If G.W. Bush saw this; he still wouldn’t get the picture. He has no conscience for all the bloodshed to feed his and Cheney’s insatiable greed. Let us act for a regime change this year. Pray for Peace.
The Arabs won’t quit.
They never have.
They will fight for generations until we give them what they want. They now want us to leave. I understand that many Americans are very headstrong and unwilling to compromise but the Arabs will use every dirty trick to win. Saddam was a madman but he was from a country of madmen. None of the Iraqi leaders I have seen on TV seems willing and able to run an effective democracy.
They also have what seems to be an endless supply of fighters. If 25 million people live in Iraq and only a small portion of the population wants to fight us then this fight could still go on indefinitely. It would be politically untenable for the president to have more than 150,000 troops in Iraq because this would look like a failure.
I also think that Sistani may not be willing to wait a year for elections. He may try to seize power. If he does then we could have an uprising on our hands that we are unable to stop. If this were to happen we would be fighting the Shias or Shiates. Sorry about the spelling. These folks are 60% of the country. That is 15 million people. In the event of a full uprising we would have to fight 3-5 million military aged men. An attack on Sadr in Najaf could also widen the conflict to Iraqis who are currently on the sidelines.
What people don’t understand is that Arabs are mentally prepared for failure. When an American or European fails we admit that we were wrong and pick a different course of action. Arabs just get angrier and rally their friends to the cause.
Also, Americans are still resolute not to fail but the Iraqis are fanatical. The Sunnis hate us, but if we fight the Shias our troops are in trouble. These people have a ceremony they celebrate every year where they slash their skin, bleed all over themselves, and dance in the streets all day. I sense that their will to win may triumph over ours. They are driven by blood lust, not logic. I fear that things will somehow get worse and I see no realistic way they will get better.
Someone objected to my first post; it disappeared sometime early Monday morning, which lead to my second post (#91). But I’m not bitter; I’ve had a few days to come to my senses. I have to admit that I was somewhat harsh. Too abrasive, I suppose, for Photo Matt’s delicate sensitivities. I should apologize for suggesting that a mosaic of aborted babies would be as heart-rendering, once an arbitrary choice had been made as to who the mosaic should represent. I should have realized that babies was the wrong word here, respected everyones’s carefully thought out choices and stuck with foetuses. And my further suggestion that a mosaic of Senator Kennedy made of whisky bottles, Oldsmobiles and images of Mary-Jo Kopechne was of equal value in the greater scheme of shameless partisanship, didn’t show any more taste than the first one. Whatever was I thinking? I cast bloody pearls not before swine, but before well-meaning people who, revolted by fleeting images of 9-11 in that smirking Bush’s campaign ads, could never come to exploit the dead in any but a truly well-intentioned way from that unimpeachible moral stronghold they have made themselves on the High Road. These young men and women in the mosaic had died, I realized, for a noble purpose not of Bush’s choosing. Their extinction – and the deft and clever manipulation by the unknown (to me) Photostop artist – serve admirably to let hundreds of thousands of people all around the world feel really, really good about themselves, without the trouble of actually having to do…anything. You can be moved at how much their loss moves you, without having to put your own body between your loved ones, and right or wrong, those that you think seek to harm them. After all, they’re dead, and you are not, and live and angry beats dead and buried any day. You can wipe a tear away at their wasted potential, feel your guts churn with righteous indignation that they died for Oil and Haliburton, vent your wrath at a president so moronic that they only let him fly a obsolete death trap of a jet and never allowed him near the new, expensive ones – all from the convenience of your keyboard, and warmth and comfort of your home. You don’t have to go out and put your life on the line; someone else got martyred and made your protest so much easier. That noble, noble end, making a real difference in the lives of pacifistic peoples around the earth, washes away any stain that may linger on the memories of these freshly dead soldiers from the fact that nothing more than mere love for their families, their country and their freedom drove them to battle and death. You have sanctified their loss, and made them holy.
Siamo governati da dei folli che ci usano come pedine per la loro smania di potere. Berlusconi è un pazzo maniaco. Voglio vedere se uno degli ostaggi era un suo congiunto se diceva quella frase: “Hanno spezzato una vita, non hanno incrinato i nostri valori e il nostro impegno per la pace”. Che gli frega a lui di una sola vita? ne ha 62 milioni di vite a disposizione da spezzare per i suoi fini politici e per leccare il culo a Bush.
GianPaolo,
“i tuoi sentimenti ti tradiscono”. Leggi: riprendermi per la sintassi, è un chiaro segno di cosa provi e di come, vigliaccamente, protesti al di fuori del contesto. Vergogna.
Primo, rifletti. Secondo, a te ed a tutti i “connazionali”: quando si posta su un forum come questo, aggiungiate almeno una versione in inglese, per rispetto agli altri.
Agli altri commenti, accetto ed apprezzo le vostre obiezioni, come civilmente dovrebbe essere (anche) nel nostro paese.
English version:
GianPaolo,
“your (hatred) feelings speak for you (and betray you, I should add)”. You shouldn’t concentrate on my syntax, you’d better try and focus on the contents, and not on my person. You should be ashamed of yourself.
To all other Italians posting here, please add an English version to your post, it’s due as a sign of respect to the English speaking host of the site, and all the readers.
I respect both my “compatriots’ ” views and others’, with all their (our) obvious differences.
Make a big freakin’ huge picture of Hitler using just a small percentage of the Jewish people he killed leading up to and in World War II. Then next to it, in comparison a postage stamp sized one of him using all of those who died to rid the world of him.
I am so glad you left whine wingers came AFTER WWII. Your lack of support and repect for your country and our leaders just pisses me off.
Nice to know dumb-asses are not unique to the American Left. Terrorists flew 2 planeloads of innocent men women and children into the Twin Towers! Hussein supported terrorism they found training camps when it was invaded! Do you not get TV in your cave? Bush plainly said that terrorists and the countries that support them are going down. I am glad we have a President with some sack for a change, I am sure when OBL is finally bagged we will still all be a bunch of dicks to you though. What other leaders in the world want to actually do something about terrorists other than pay lip service?
You ever heard Toby Keith? He’s a Country music singer here in the USA… country like as in Proud of my Country. Here’s a line from one of his songs, “Courtesy of the Red White and Blue.” We’ll put a boot in your ass, it’s the American way… Somewhere there is a boot with Osama’s name on it.
People die and you Americans continued in your foolish politics, and with to you the governments who support to you. People die and she does not want to die for your stupid hypocrisies.
Francesco,
se desideri essere più obiettivo, dovresti tenere in considerazione che una larga parte degli “Americani” non si è schierata a favore di questo conflitto. Il termine “voi Americani” è improprio, non giusto, e denota una certa mentalità Italiana – tipicamente sinistroide – chiusa, incapace di dialogo e pregiudizievole.
Sarebbe come se ti sentissi dire “voi Italiani mafiosi”, quando tu – immagino – non lo sei. Da loro, è come da noi (magari fosse): una parte è a favore, una contraria.
Dovresti documentarti un po’ di più.
E’ tempo che gli Italiani – qualunque opinione socio-politica abbiano – si rendano più all’altezza di una comunità internazionale, nell’espressione del proprio pensiero.
English version:
Francesco,
you should be aware by now that a large portion of “them Americans” was against this conflict since its beginning.
If you want to refer to the Americans more properly – instead of just pointing your finger to a fuzzy nebula for lack of knowledege making your opinion less worth – you should take into consideration this point.
It’s just like American people referred to you saying “you Italian mafia people” when you – I guess – are not.
In order to make your point more constructive and worth reading for the whole community, I’d suggest that you read more, and learn how to better express your opinions in an online international community such as this.
If you are going to do this right how about a mosaic of FDR and WWII dead; HST and the Korean Dead and how about everyones favorite JFK and the Vietnam dead.
This kind of crap is demeaning, unpatriotic and down right STUPID.
Steve go home and play the DIXIE CHICKS (MORON)! Dont think you ever served and walked the grunt line, me 5yrs so i got room to complain. I see you didnt have the balls to leave your email either.
Now thats funny, theres one for all the left wingers
Steve you need to check out post #215 thats right up your alley. LOL
For #227 get a grip on yourself (if you dont like the U.S. get out and leave all the money you made here).
Hey,#232,
re-read the post before you write again bitching. My words were directed to a fellow Italian, with the opposite meaning you perceived (evidently).
FYI, I don’t live in US ( and never have), I’m in Italy.
Sorry 227 I ment to type 226
Hey, USA is NOT George W Bush. Like Arabs are NOT Osama Bin Laden.
The are some people here in the US who think that this war is ridiculous (and it seems i’m not the only one), and since we are a democracy we will vote for the next nerd who is supposed to rappresent our country, and I hope it won’t be G.W.Bush.
But please… we americans are a bit more clever then our president.
Bush has been the first president weve had in a long time to get out there and do something. I feel safer knowin that saddam is no longer in power and that our troops are taking steps to combat terrorism. To all you who feel otherwise, i really have nothing to say because i am past the point of arguing with idiots who do not understand how the world works. Peace does not stop terrorism. In our world of relatively civilized nations, the Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future. They kill their own children just so you can look at their pictures and feel sorry. for people who are smart enough to understand this – for people who actually know history – i applaud you. For the person who said “Freedom isn’t f free” good job. And for the person who brought up japs – I AM DELIBERATELY REFERRIN TO THEM AS JAPS – good job too. Those bastards deserved more than 2 atom bombs. If i had it my way, the middle east would have long been occupied by us, and then we would not have any trouble with those bastards. Just know that if a terrorist ever got his hands on a nuclear weapon, they would not hesitate for a moment to use it against us no matter what we do. when that election rolls around, my votes for bush.
I did my time in Vietnam. Then I ended my tour of duty in a research unit. Our job was to “automate” the battlefield. The theory was that we should conduct future wars without American casualties. We are almost there. Because of our research and other such projects there are one tenth as many Americans killed in combat now compared to the same time period in Vietnam. I am 100 percent with Bush concerning this war. I also believe it will involve Iran and Syria in 2005. We will continue to have extremely light casualties in the future. Any enemy of America soon believes he is fighting “magicians.”
May it ever be so.
Pete, Pete, Pete…
Let’s break your post down argument by argument, shall we? And I’ll even be gracious and offer definitions for any big words you may not fully understand. (For instance, “argument” is a statement made to support a position in a debate, “gracious” is a kind or courteous stance, and “definition” is a short summary of a word’s meaning.)
Now, your first statement, “STOP ALL THE CRYING, WAR IS WAR PEOPLE STILL DIE FROM IT. IF YOU CANT HANDLE IT THEN GET OUT OF KICHEN AND SHUT UP.” Wow. What a masterful summary of international conflict. (“Masterful” means that something reveals a mastery or skill, but it’s important to point out that it’s being used sarcastically in this instance. You see, I’m ridiculing your simplistic statement by calling it masterful, since anyone above a third-grade intellect can recognize it as the moronic ramblings of a jingoist knee-jerk neo-fascist lacking either the intellect or the courage to question the party line. Actually, I’m sorry, but there’s going to be way too many definitions. This’ll take all night. Just go to http://www.dictionary.com and type them in.) Now, back to your statement. Yes, death is an inevitable part of war, just as death is an inevitable part of life. Drunk drivers also kill people. Does that mean we should just accept it and stop trying to keep them off the road? In case you were wondering, the correct answer is “no.” The issue here is an issue of accountability. Since death is an inevitable result of war, there exists a moral obligation to minimize its proliferation. This means NOT sending troops into battle without proper supplies. This means NOT sending troops to a hostile country with no clear plan of action, and most importantly, this means NOT sending them to attack a nation that posed no real threat of danger. One of General Clark’s main arguments in his campaign was that, as a soldier, he understood all too well the injustice of ordering others to their deaths, and that led him to the understanding that war must be the absolute last solution to conflict. Of course, he was just a bleeding-heart liberal who was the Supreme Allied Commander of Europe and oversaw the planning and execution of our involvement in Kosovo. So what did he know about war? Now…
“I DONT CARE WHAT HE SAID SHE SAID BULL. WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY OR WHAT EVER. WE ARE A SUPERPOWER AND THE BIG DOG. YOU DO WHAT WE SAY OR GET YOUR ASS BUSTED PLAN AND SIMPLE.” First off, I think the phrase you want is “plain and simple.” This “big dog” philosophy is an interesting one, and one which has been used before. Some examples are Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, Ghenghis Khan, and, of course, Adolf Hitler. Are these really the companions in history you want for America? Not that America is immune from such likenesses to date. This same philosophy, on a more limited scale, is what gave us “Manifest Destiny” and the genocide of the Native population of our country. Saddam was a butcher, yes, but our own benign government gave smallpox-infested blankets to women and children, so who exactly are we to pass judgement? Not to mention, of course, that the U.S. government not only put Saddam into power but also supplied him with the chemical weapons he used on his own people. And, lest you forget, we’re also the ones who trained Osama Bin Laden in terrorist tactics back when the Russians were fighting the Afghani rebels.
“IAM TIRED THE RIGHT WING FOLLOWERS WITH THER POOR THEM ATTUIDE. THESE PEOPLE SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE TO FIGHT (BUT I JUST WANTED THE MONEY FOR COLLEGE)” Wow. Do you even have a conscience? It really doesn’t seem like it. Yes, each one of these soldiers, as you put it, signed on the dotted line. And God bless them for it. Taking an oath to defend your country is one of the most honorable things a person can do. But that doesn’t mean they deserve to be sent off on false pretenses to die in a conflict that never needed to happen. And your attack on those who joined in order to better their education smacks of jealousy. Your post seems to reinforce the idea that you yourself never anvanced very far in the educational field. I’m guessing you were a high school dropout, judging from your general misuse of spelling and grammar. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but don’t gloat that others are dead because they wanted more for themselves. It’s just petty.
“WHO EVER IS GOING TO BE IN OFFICE THERE IS NO GOING BACK NOW, TO BACK DOWN NOW WILL ONLY CAUSE OTHER COUNRTY TO DO WHAT THEY WON’T WITH US BECOUSE WE WONT FIGHT BACK.” Unfortunately, the first part of your statement is true. There really is no going back. But there are much more sensible ways to move forward. For instance, repairing the rift we’ve generated between ourselves and those nations who were once our allies, and whom we’ve turned against for the heinous crime of wanting more evidence of a threat before sending soldiers into harm’s way. The other part of your argument, however, is patently absurd. Any country who wants to “DO WHAT THEY WON’T WITH US” is free to try. And free to face the retribution that follows. This next part is important, so I’m going to say it real slow. Ready? Iraq… didn’t… attack… us. Got that? They didn’t do what they WANT, which is, by the way, the word you were looking for. In fact, they did everything we told them to, including allowing U.N. weapons inspectors who told us there was no credible threat from them. And we invaded them anyway. What message does this send to the rest of the world? The message that the U.S. can’t be trusted, so don’t believe anything they say and keep attacking them. Stirring up more global opposition is certainly a novel way to combat terrorism, but I’d prefer a method that didn’t egg on those who intend our destruction and add more members to their ranks.
“LOOK AT ALL THE BOMBINGS THAT WERE POINTED AT US IN THE LAST TEN YRS, I DONT THINK I NEED NAME THEM ALL DO I.” Please, feel free. And show me which one of those attacks Saddam Hussein was responsible for. While you’re at it, show the Bush administration, because so far, they haven’t been able to find one.
“WMD ARE THEY THERE OR NOT WHO CARES. DONT TELL ME THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU BEEN LIED TO GET OVER IT. AT LEAST GW IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.” Indeed he is. He’s the one lying to us. And, sadly, no. This isn’t the first time a President has lied to the American people. And it won’t be the last. But I don’t think it’s out of line to expect the leader of our country to tell us the truth. At least with Clinton, his big lie didn’t kill 600 soldiers. Keep in mind, by the way, that the casualty count doesn’t include the hundreds of suicides by troops serving in Iraq. Self-inflicted death isn’t considered a combat casualty.
“IF YOU DONT DO SOMETHING NOW 3000 PEOPLE AT THE WTC BE A LOW NUMBER THE NEXT TIME.” This may well be true. But doing “SOMETHING” is a tricky mandate. Let’s examine what Bush has done. Aside from throwing rocks at the hornet’s nest of the Middle East, he has…
– Nov. 14, 2001: Opposed a $15 billion Homeland Security budget proposal.
– Dec. 4, 2001: Threatened to veto the Senate Appropriations Committee bill giving $13.1 billion to Homeland Security.
– Dec. 6, 2001: Convinces Senate Republicans to reduce Homeland Security funding in the Defense Appropriations bill by $4.6 billion
– Dec. 19, 2001: Asks for (and gets) another $200 million reduction from such areas as airport security, port security, nuclear facility security, and postal security.
– June 7, 2002: Bush senior advisors reccommend a veto of “excessive homeland security spending” of $8.3 billion.
– February 3, 2003: Bush submits his 2004 budget, reducing the Homeland Security budget by 1.9%
So, yes, we need to do something to protect our country. Namely, we need to elect someone who will actually do it.
” KNOW I HIT ON A LOT OF SUBJECTS BUT JUST HAD TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THEM IN MY SHORT AMOUT OF TIME.P.S. TO ALL THE BLEEDING HEARTS FEEL FREE TO RESPONE IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH ME ” I wouldn’t exactly call seven arguments a lot, but I obviously have higher standards when it comes to public debate. Oh, and as far as keeping up with you, I could put together a more coherent argument when I was ten. It takes a lot more than a caps lock button to make a convincing argument. You can try to keep up if you want, but I have the feeling I’m way out of your league.
Jake I want to say something about your words (post #237). First off I don’t expect you to listen to me as you have clearly indicated in your post. But I must say you have one of the most ignorant, generalised, stereotypical, childish comments I’ve seen on the war and on modern American politics in general. Yet instead of having a long-drawn-out argument back and forth of who’s right and who’s wrong….. I hope you may answer one simple question I’m posing so you might perhaps and just perhaps think about your position on the matter…..
How and when are you going to be satisfied by how the world works? Does it mean American world-domination, in which everyone and everything and I mean everything is “Americanised” to your satisfaction? Does it mean everyone in the world will have to be “white”, since you brought up and in fact endorsed the “Jap” comment and as far as I know currently we are NOT at war with Japan so why there is still a hatred towards them is beyond me? Or does it mean something else? When are you going to be satisfied so there won’t ever be military campaigns anymore? And finally how are you going to end this so-called “threat” by terrorism or whatever the (external) entity it may be and finally be satisfied enough to change that ‘t’ word into something otherwise (examples of Germany and Japan comes to mind to what I’m getting at)? “Occupation” might very well mean “Imperialism”, do you really think it is possible to do that under the realities of today in the 21st century –another South Africa? another Hong Kong? or Israel (ie Palestinians versus Israelis)? or Vietnam (ie French occupation)? or Japan? or Philippines (ie American occupation)–
Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future. They kill their own children just so you can look at their pictures and feel sorry.//
You quick to forget Israel is part of the middle east (unless of course you’re anti-semtic as well among your numerous irrational hating, loathing convictions) …..and what ‘good’ would it do for ‘them’ to kill their children? Just to generate and gain sympathy from us? There are countless other ways to gain ‘sympathy’ and I’m pretty sure killing their own is NOT one of their ways. And what if they are killing their own children? What are we going to do about it? I tell you– NOTHING! That’s what….. So unless you give a much MUCH more plausible scenario/ thought/ comment in the future I suggest you restraint yourself from posting on the internet or speaking to another human being for that matter. You sir, are an idiot.
Jim your #225 //// Nice to know dumb-asses are not unique to the American Left. Terrorists flew 2 planeloads of innocent men women and children into the Twin Towers! Hussein supported terrorism they found training camps when it was invaded! Do you not get TV in your cave? Bush plainly said that terrorists and the countries that support them are going down. I am glad we have a President with some sack for a change, I am sure when OBL is finally bagged we will still all be a bunch of dicks to you though. What other leaders in the world want to actually do something about terrorists other than pay lip service? ////
Then DO IT! And do it right! By that I mean eliminate terrorism…. get those bad guys….. provide support for those we’re trying to help…… do it with honor and honesty….. and don’t do a half-ass job!
Look, the fact of the matter is George W Bush is NOT fit to be a president…… just look at his mannerism and he’s the butt of jokes of the world! But more importantly, his incompetence in office shows us that we need to smarten up and change the current trend. Look, the fact is there are many more people in the United States who are more competent as the president than W Bush, I’m pretty sure your own neighbours are better presidents than dumbass. We need to recognise that.
I’m not in favour of any one party and I’m NOT a liberal….. in fact I live a pretty conservative lifestyle….. I look at the person (rather than just the party) whose best fit to run the country. If Bush had done a better job at planning and implementing the Iraq war and if he had all the social services and economy and health care and taxes all figured out and not to mention our relations with the rest of the world, then I’m right with the diehard Bush crowd… no questions about it. But the reality is W Bush is incompetent and just about anyone who could replace him is better. It’s a fact. We need to realise that.
Pete, Pete, Pete… (#210)
I’m going to take a little time here and respond to each one of your arguments one by one, and i’m even going to be gracious and provide definitions for any big words you may not know. (“Arguments” are the statements you made in support of your opinion. “Gracious” is a state of being kind or forgiving. “Definition” is a brief sentence explaining the meaning of a word.) Now, I kind of feel like I’m taking a blowtorch to a mosquito here, but I just couldn’t let your masterful summary of international conflict go unchallenged. (‘Masterful,” by the way, means in a way demonstrating mastery of a subject, but it’s important to point out that it’s being used sarcastically. By calling your statement “masterful,” I’m ridiculing you and your arguments by illustrating, through facetious support, that any third-grader would recognize them as mindless jingoist knee-jerk response from a neo-fascist thug. You know what, I’m sorry, but there’s going to be way too many big words. Just go to dictionary.com and look them up yourself.) Now, on to your first argument.
“STOP ALL THE CRYING, WAR IS WAR PEOPLE STILL DIE FROM IT. IF YOU CANT HANDLE IT THEN GET OUT OF KICHEN AND SHUT UP.” Bravo. Spot-on. War is, indeed, war. People do still die from it. Death is inevitable in war, as it is in every other aspect of life. Drunk drivers still kill innocent people at an alarming rate. Does this mean we should accept it and stop trying to get them off the road? In case you were wondering, the answer is “no.” War is bloody and brutal. Therefore, there is a moral obligation to make sure death is minimized. This is NOT done by sending troops into combat without the proper equipment. This is NOT done by immersing troops in a hostile environment with no support and no clear strategy. This is NOT done by attacking and occupying a country which posed no credible threat and had not shown signs of aggression towards us. Were any of your five years of service under combat conditions? Were you an officer or unit commander? General Wesley Clark has said that being forced to order men to their deaths had given him the understanding that war should be the last option of diplomacy. But he was just a bleeding-heart liberal who served as Supreme Allied Commander of Europe and oversaw the planning and execution of the Kosovo offensive, so what does he know about war?
“I DONT CARE WHAT HE SAID SHE SAID BULL. WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY OR WHAT EVER. WE ARE A SUPERPOWER AND THE BIG DOG. YOU DO WHAT WE SAY OR GET YOUR ASS BUSTED PLAN AND SIMPLE.” Hmm. This “big dog” philosophy is intriguing. Of course, it’s also not an original idea. Others in the past have used it to justify similar undertakings. For instance, Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, Ghenghis Khan, and, of course, Adolf Hitler. Are these really the historical companions you want for America? But let’s not forget, we’ve heard this argument before right here in our very own country. It was called “Manifest Desitiny” at the time, and was used as an excuse for the genocide of the native population. Our own government gave smallpox-infested blankets to women and children. Now Saddam was definitely a butcher, but keep in mind that it was the U.S. government that put him into power and gave him the chemical weapons he used to slaughter his own people. Remember as well that it was the C.I.A that trained Osama Bin Laden in terrorist tactics, back when the Russians were fighting the Afghani rebels.
“IAM TIRED THE RIGHT WING FOLLOWERS WITH THER POOR THEM ATTUIDE. THESE PEOPLE SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE TO FIGHT (BUT I JUST WANTED THE MONEY FOR COLLEGE).” I have to admit, the sheer callousness of that statement had me stunned. Each of these people did, just as you say, sign on the dotted line. And I thank them, and all the others who serve in uniform, for that. To volunteer to defend your country is a noble and glorious thing. That doesn’t mean they deserve to be shipped off to die for a war based on deceit and greed. And your venomous attack on those who enlisted to atend college just reeks of jealousy and contempt. Judging from your general approach to spelling and grammar, I’m going to guess that you were a high-school dropout who enlisted because there weren’t really any other options. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Higher education isn’t for everyone. But don’t fault them for wanting to better themselves. It’s just petty.
“WHO EVER IS GOING TO BE IN OFFICE THERE IS NO GOING BACK NOW, TO BACK DOWN NOW WILL ONLY CAUSE OTHER COUNRTY TO DO WHAT THEY WON’T WITH US BECOUSE WE WONT FIGHT BACK.” Unfortunately, the first part of this statement may well be true. We may have reached the point of no return. However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t better ways to go forward than our current course of action. For instance, we need to regain the support and trust of those countries who were formerly allies and who we turned against for the heinous crime of wanting some kind of solid evidence before waging war on a sovereign nation. But the second half of your argument is patently ridiculous. You think other countries will do what they want if we leave Iraq? You think our involvement in Iraq is having any effect on the plans of al Qaida at all? If anything, it’s spurring them on to more terrorist actions (like Madrid.) You think we invaded Iraq because they didn’t do what we wanted? Iraq did everything we asked them to, including allowing U.N. weapons inspectors who told us there was no credible threat from them. And we invaded anyway. You think we’re going to sit by and let some other country attack us at will? Let me clear something up for you, and it’s important so I’ll go slow. Ready? Iraq… never… attacked… us. Got it? But as a result of our war, you’d better believe there’s more people in Iraq that want to kill us now.
“LOOK AT ALL THE BOMBINGS THAT WERE POINTED AT US IN THE LAST TEN YRS, I DONT THINK I NEED NAME THEM ALL DO I.” Could you? And while you’re at it, show me evidence that Saddam Hussein was behind any of them. You should probably show the White House, too, because right now, they haven’t been able to show any proof of it. All we’ve done is taken a country that was bitter but harmless and stirred them up into an anti-American frenzy.
“WMD ARE THEY THERE OR NOT WHO CARES. DONT TELL ME THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU BEEN LIED TO GET OVER IT. AT LEAST GW IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.” Yes, he is. He’s the one lying to us. And no, it’s not the first time a President has lied to the American people. And chances are, it won’t be the last. But I don’t think it’s out of line to expect the leader of our country to tell the truth to the American people. At least Clinton’s big lie didn’t kill 600 American soldiers. Those statistics, by the way, don’t count all the suicides by active-duty soldiers. Self-inflicted deaths aren’t combat casualties.
“IF YOU DONT DO SOMETHING NOW 3000 PEOPLE AT THE WTC BE A LOW NUMBER THE NEXT TIME.” This may very well prove true. However, doing “something” is a tricky mandate. Let’s examine exactly what President Bush has done to make our country safer from attack…
– November 14, 2001: Rejects a $15 billion proposal for Homeland Security spending, warning against spending on projects unrelated to economic stimulus.
– December 4, 2001: Threatens to veto a Senate Appropriations bill giving $13.1 billion to Homeland Security programs.
– December 6, 2001: Convinces Senate Republicans to reduce Homeland Security funding in the Defense Apppropriations bill by $4.6 billion.
– December 19, 2001: Pressures the Senate to reduce Homeland Security funding by an additional $200 million. This money came from programs for airport security, port security, nuclear facility security, and postal security.
– June 7, 2002: White House senior advisors recommend a veto of an $8.3 billion Homeland Security spending bill, calling it “excessive homeland security spending.”
– February 3, 2003: President Bush submits his 2004 budget, which reduces Homeland Security spending by 1.9%.
And that’s just the start. We can indeed do something to make America safer from terrorist attacks. We can elect a president who will actually do something about it, instead of talking big while he cuts security programs.
“I KNOW I HIT ON A LOT OF SUBJECTS BUT JUST HAD TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THEM IN MY SHORT AMOUT OF TIME.P.S. TO ALL THE BLEEDING HEARTS FEEL FREE TO RESPONE IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH ME” I don’t really call 7 arguments a lot, but I suspect I have a higher standard of expectations for public debate. As for keeping up with you? I could put together a more coherent argument than yours when I was ten. Do you really want to try me now? You’re welcome to make the effort, but I suspect I’m way out of your league on this. It takes more than a caps lock button to keep up.
Alright, I should explain why I posted my lengthy dissection of Pete’s post #210 twice. NOT because I feel everyone should read it again and again, but because my modem crashed halfway through sending the first version. Upon reconnecting and refreshing the site, my post was not there. So, under the impression that it didn’t go through, I went about the ardurous task of reconstructing it from memory. Not a bad job, I must say. But, upon posting version 2.0, I discovered that, much to my chagrin, the original version had indeed gone through. So, whoever is maintaining this site, feel free to eliminate one of the two. I’d prefer to delete the first, since the second is a little more concise. Feel free to delete this explanation, as well. I just hate looking like I don’t know how to use a computer.
I live in Irak and I want my freedom back.
Please give me back my FREEDOM!!!!
Hola,
voy a escribir en espanol para que me entiendan los chicos italianos. Habais visto la foto del enlace de “A concerned american”? Es asquerosa. Bien, pues mis mensajes diciendo que esa foto es asquerosa y el modo en que ese *** se r�e de los que estamos en contra de la guerra han sido censurados; sin embargo, ese enlace tan gore y repugnante sigue ah�. Ya veis, America, la tierra de la libertad, que nos va a salvar a todos de la infamia.
TOPAS ESPAOLAS A CASA: NO A LA GUERRA.
(Cuanto durar� mi post aqu� 😉
Sorry, TROPAS ESPAÑOLAS A CASA. NO A LA GUERRA.
LIBERTAD DE EXPRESIÓN (en mi paÃs existe).
To all the people above who think this is a war for freedom: why on earth do you think the U.S. (or the italian, or the english) government is intervening? for the freedom of the iraqi people? what about china? their people are quite enslave too, but they make a good deal for a lot of countries, don’t you think? what about russia where the last elections were the antithesys to democratic elections and all the cecenians are treated as plain shit? what about africa where people dies for malaria, aids or some religious or political slaughter? what about all other countries where people doesn’t have the right to speech their minds, or even the right to drink water cause there is someone who wants them to pay for the privilege…do you think that bombing is the best way to export democracy? why on earth do dear G.W.Bush had to take on iraq? because he felt sorry for the poor guys that have been gassed? don’t make me luagh, i couldn’t anyway though. Yeah he cought saddam, it was good job but we are paying a price that is way too big. you wanna fight terrorism? cool, i’d suggest you to eradicate the first source of terrorism: misery. Open up your eyes, nobody gives a fuck for the people which is dying all over the world. Yeah sometimes you really have to fight till death, there is nothing to ashemed of. But you really have to do it as the last resource, and you have to be in a position where everything else would fail. I’m just so sorry those who have died in this war. Well, i’m going back to my cave now. and i know that my thoughts wont change anything, i just tried.
If all of you Bush-haters could have had your way, Saddam Hussein would still be in power. And there isn’t enough space on a computer screen for a mosaic of all the people he’s killed. And the people he killed never had a choice or a chance; whereas, if you voluntarily enlist for the U.S. Military, you know there’s an outside chance you could be killed. The vast overwhelming majority of U.S. servicepeople support the mission; who do these liberal whiners and appeasers think they are, to presume to speak for the soldiers? They aren’t worthy to lick their boots.
The amount of soldiers killed in Iraq, while certainly tragic, amounts to 3 average days’ worth of deaths of U.S. soldiers in WWII (from Pearl Harbor to Tokyo Bay, we lost an average of 220 soldiers per day). The stakes in the war on terror, of which Iraq is a main theater, are just as great as they were during WWII. But no one makes mosaics of FDR. Back then it was the Republican isolationists who were on the wrong side of history. Today, it is the ignorant and amoral Bush-hating liberals.
“Man, it’s gonna be hell, when you hear Mother Freedom start ringin’ her bell and it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you, brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue. Justice will be served and the battle will rage, this big dog will fight when you rattle his cage. And you’ll be sorry that you messed with The U.S. of A. ‘Cause we’ll put a boot in your ass. It’s the American way” (Toby Keith: the “western” fatwa)
“We — with Allah’s help — call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan’s U.S. troops and the devil’s supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson”. (Usama Bin Laden: the islamic fatwa).
To 240 It looks like you should be running the country. But insted you just sit and type, you must be single and a idiot. You have way too much time on your hand to resond with a book. What i wrote took about 3 min to nail down,you sat there and put way too thought into it (just nuke em and be done with it). But i did graduate and work for ford by the way. So by the way i responded to this in about 1.5 min. So feel free to spend an nite alone with yourself, Try and resond in 1 or 2 senteaces and see how it comes out. ps dont have the time to fx my typos deal with it.
Jake now what i like to hear (sorry bleeding hearts)
pat pat pat patty cake, why dont you just go to white house and tell them whats wrong them, man you have a lot to say but i dont anyone is wanting to hear you (just like in school). Get a life
pat, and what did clinton do while we were getting bombed while HE was in office. Look it up.
How did we know they had wmd over there, becouse we sold them to him, you have to find these bombs in an area of about the size of caif. of just sand. Pretty easy to do with a gps system. just wait untill we leave and dig em up. Any body see the jets that were found in the sand buired from russia, state of the art tech.
245 excuses, excuses, god dam you cant even say you made a mistake in 1 sentance. What a blowhard. (no blowhard is not sexual in nature.)
You must be the life of the party, you ever wonder why people walk away when you arrive. bla bla bla. Mr wright I know everthing. Say something in 30 sec that you mean,What in did when I was in the service is I was ordinance officer if you must know. What do you do write poetry, study the gov and whats wrong with it and everybody else. Slow down before your brain explodes
to Beau. Your comment about the Iraqi chemical attack in 1988. Yes, it was awful, but what did the Reagan admin do to punish Saddam for using the chemical weapons WE gave him?? We looked the other way and continued to arm him. your PRemise that We attacked Iraq to give them freedom and punish Saddam for his bad behavior 16 years ago…that dog won’t hunt! The story keeps changing. When no WMD are found, the “he killed people” story is used or the bringing them democracy is used. You will do anything to justify this boondoggle (bushdoggle) that bush has lied to get us into.
Well, yee-haw. You try and get me to run off and hide in the corner because of character attacks from some redneck yahoo douchebag? What bugs you most? That I’m right, that I can articulate above a third-grade level, or that I remind you of exactly how big a failure your life really is? There. That was just about 30 seconds.
Jonas S. Luster: Your comments are succinct and intelligent. Incredibly refreshing in this melee of insanity, misinformation and hysteria. Thank you.
Since quite a few people have brought up how “few” soldiers we’ve lost in this “war on terrah,” i guess it might have been more appropriate to use photos of the civilians of iraq, to whom we are supposedly giving freedom. i guess death *does* set you free…
plenty of people in iraq to make a mosaic : http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
Too bad we can’t get Dumbya’s picture in there.
What bugs me the most is I can get to get off your soap box with just a few words, My life is just fine, I dont have to take time and try to tell everybody that I’m right, unlike yourself. See even a so called third grader can you get pissed off, you pat are a very shallow and need counseling. And I got you do some name calling Too.!! There might be some hope for you yet.(but I dont think so)
To all the irak lovers take a plane over there and try to talk peace and love, you dont get it they hate us, and dont blame bush or anyone else, they hated us eversence pat can remember. go on pat tell em?
Pat, War and Drunk Drivers I think your way out of line to compare the two. Speaking of booze I think its time for your martini.
For pat #260 it sounds like you just looked in mirror and started to type what you seen. pity pity
Say pat you still havent said what yoooou do (unemployed perhaps). Redneck? isnt that sort of racist. Just keep on talking the real you just comes pouring out, you just cant help can you.
someone earlier mentioned that only 500-600 soldiers had died…that is the total of insta-kills, as our generation is so proud of saying. Now count how many are wounded and die in the hospitals and the totals might be right there among the 1500. Casualty reports only list the immediate deaths not the slow and painful ones.
“Dissent and protest are not unpatriotic.”
No, they are not. But using a soldiers image to support your pathetic political views is downright goulish and sick.
Shocking, considering how “MOVED” you are by the image. Were you also MOVED to contact the families of those fallen soldiers and ask if it was ok to plaster their face all over your vile little website?
I suppose you don’t plan on considering whether or not those families would support your effort to use their tragedy to help Kerry get elected?
Sick.
Sick as it gets
“Casualty reports only list the immediate deaths not the slow and painful ones.”
Of course you could care less about the heroic, valorous or selfless ones, right?
The ones that saved a buddy or a stranger.
Naw. They’re all just props to you.
Besides, what would a liberal know or care of such things?
In reality, you could care less how they actually died. Or how their families feel about your pathetic little art project.
Just another piece for your prop.
I liked what tripwire Mike had to say- quit whining- we need to celebrate these heroes. They chose to go to Iraq knowing what might happen, and they still went- FOR US!! Mr. Dave R., you say Saddam wasn’t a threat, why, b/c we haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction? Well what if we never went in there and they decided to use these weapons on us? I liked what “Fred” had to say, SHOOT first and then find the evidence. Even if they never find any evidence, I will still stand behind our president. Saddam was hiding weapons in elementary schools, he was killing his own people- he needed to be taken out!!
All of the liberals think they know whats going on in the war on terror, but all they know is what they see on TV. Have you ever talked to a soldier that has come back from Iraq and have you heard about all of the Iraqi people that want us there and thank them everyday for being there??? Do you know how much good will come out of this once this is done and over with. We are helping them have a stable goverment and the people appreciate it. My Brother is over there and I get letters all of the time saying how he gets thanked on a daily basis.
Our president does not deserve to have that mosaic made on his face- it’s wrong. I liked the idea of putting all of the people we lost during 9/11 on Osama’s face. This is a difficult time on all of us- it’s sad we lost these great HEROE’s and how wonderful it was of them to sacrafice there lives for a cause- which is more then I can say for most of you!! We need to stop whining b/c of every little thing we see on the news and know there is light at the end of the tunnel. I stand behind our President, which is A CHRISTIAN (for all of you that don’t believe it, thats too bad). You know what I hate seeing on the news, is the trials for 9/11- they said we had enough evidence to stop it. Well what if we did all we could, spent tons of money to prevent it- AND THEN NOTHING HAPPEND!!! Wouldn’t you rather be safe then sorry, most people are saying??? Well the same goes for war- we had enough evidence to believe they had weapons they could use against us……. I am glad we are doing something about it then turning our heads (like what Clinton did after the bombing of the USS Cole)
“Dave C.” thanks for what you said- that was one of the best things I’ve read so far. And “Boston”- those quotes were great!! Go Bush!!
Well, since I’m a white boy from south Georgia, redneck’s not racist at all. It’s insulting, and it’s intentionally so, but I’ve grown up with ignorant hicks like you my whole life, so I think I can speak with some level of authority. And do remember that YOU’RE the one who set the tone of this particular little engagement. You’ve made it pretty clear that you’d rather just toss insults back and forth than present one shred of evidence to support your views. And, since that’s what you want, I’m more than happy to oblige.
What makes me laugh the most, other than your sophomoric approach to conversation, is the multiple postings, minutes apart. I can just see you, huddled over your desk, shaking in apoplectic fury, vainly wracking your brain for something else to say. At this point, I’m just in this to make you look as stupid as possible, although I have to admit, you’re doing most of the work all on your own.
Come on back just as soon as you can jumble together a string of disjointed invectives to support your vain endeavour.
But just look at the progess you made, no more bla bla bla. Well you grew up with (hicks ) your hole life. And look at that your still there, too bad you have to surround yourself with so called hicks to make you feel better about yourself. Me Me Me Me Me I I II III. From what I gather I would put you at about 33 to 38,quit going to school and get a job and get out of your mothers basement and get some sunlight. By the way Iam laughing at you so much I keep hitting the send button by mistake. See I dont need a par to say I made a mistake lol. You still havent said what you do (unemployed) perhaps. The evidece is there if you look for it I dont have the time like you do. You should have all numbers to prove someone wrong thats the type of person you are, me I dont care to prove anyone wrong these are just opinons. You or any of hick terms here ( Big Words) are not going the get people to see whatever small world your looking at. Open your eyes and look towards the light get a life.
While we’re on the subject of progress, congratulations! There were actually a few complete sentences in that last message. Did you get someone else to help, or did you do it all by yourself? Hate to break it to you, but you overshot me by about ten years. I’m 25, and, nope, mama’s basement just has a bunch of old junk. And college gave me a chance to get out of that backwater hellhole, thanks to a little federal aid. So I guess YOUR tax dollars helped send me to college! Thanks! As for what I do, I’ve done it all. I flipped burgers in high school, I worked construction and cleaned floors while in college, and now I’m an electrician and lighting designer, working on movies, TV, and stage shows. You probably don’t know what that it. Basically, I get paid a couple grand a pop to go in and tell people where to put lights. I mean, working for Paramount or on Broadway shows isn’t as glamorous as working for Ford, but I get by. That was sarcasm again, by the way.
And, in all honesty, I was never under any illusions about changing your mind. Blind fanaticism has always, and will always, be the exclusive realm of the dumb and brutish. Enjoy life down there at the bottom.
Pat – Awesome response (post 243). I am applauding.
As a student myself I am asking for your insight on the 04 election. I am afraid voting GWB out of office would prematurely end the conflict. No one wants to see more dead bodies. However, these soldiers should not have to be remembered as dying in vain.
Please stop the personal attacks on people in this thread.
Too bad thats not steady work, but youve got time to change, unfortunuly we hold the same background electrician. No its not fancy as dolly wood but Ill take the 160grand yr. If your not under the impression of changing the way people think about the war, you sure put a lot of time into trying to change one opion. But its nice to at 25 you think you have all answers. By the way did you vote in the last elction or do just cry when things dont go your way.
Thed price of freedom is never cheap no free. What it cost pales in comparrison to what it would cost us if we were not free. Just look at what our freedom has cost in the past and present, and whatv the lack of freedom has cost others in the past and preesent.
This is nothing more than an attack on a president who has the courage to fight back against those that have the will and desire to try and take it away from us. War is never popular and the cost of that war is never desireable or tastefull. Yet the end results are. Those that complain and protest about this do not realize how they received this ability. Lets hope that they do in the near future.
It is this hard and terrible cost of freedom that has allowed us to say as we please and why others in the world do not have this right. Wise up and savor the ability to say as you please, but honor those that made the supreme and ultimate sacrifice that gave you that ability.
Whoever made this should make these people and all of the others in history into pictures that honor them and what the died for. This picture is nothing more than a political statement, and using the pictures of these fine people for that pourpose is shamefull and should be considered a crime as such.
Very easy to say what should be done after the fact, What do you do when we get bombed again. Mabe just sit back and do more analyzing for a couple more yrs. When do you draw the line and say enough is enough
Having served 23 years in the Navy and made a second career in an entirly obscure field away from military matters, I have had the chance to sit back and observe our leaders in action. The president, irregardless who he is, can only do just so much. He relys on advisers who are supposed to be specialists in their field. Bad advisers, advisers with their own agenda, and advisers with faulty, little or no intelligence are the reason we have bad leaders or ones who make big mistakes. All that said, my personal opinion is we should let the Iraqi people take over their own government and the coalition forces go home. Only the future, which no one can predict, will show whos right and whos wrong and whether we have decent advisers
Alright, this was amusing for a while, but I’ve got better things to do. We both have our opinions and we both think we’re right. One of us is wrong, but I’m never going to convince you it’s you, and you’re sure as hell never going to convince me it’s me. I’m gonna respect the web host’s request and end this.
i can only agree with the comments by jonas luster, quite apperantly a very well spoken person.
sad to see so many young people dead for making some rich people even richer. One thing I hate about such stats though is that you just ignore the iraqi civilians that are dying. Headlines start like “5 american troops killed in iraq. Then a 5 minute report on the conflict. and at the end of the report. “By the way, 200 iraqi’s have also died”. This mosaic has the same tone for me. What about the iraqi civilians who died? Maybe you didn’t put it because if you do so, instead of a mosaic you will get one big black rectangle.
The majority of people commenting are probably under the age of 40 so have no realistic recall of what war is. We have lost far less men in the short time we have been in Iraq than in the first six months alone either of Korea, WWI, WWII or Viet Nam. All wars, incidentally, that were begun or escalated during the terms of Democrats and – incidentally – with the exception of Japan, were against countries that did NOT attack us or attack US soil. The day after New York City was attacked, “Go after them!” was everyone’s vehement chant. Just because a couple years have past and there have been no further attacks on the US, does that mean 9-11 has lost importance and that the lives we lost then are insignificant? Yes, it is our duty as the world’s number one free nation, to defend freedom not just for us but for those who ask for our help. If we ignore them, how shall we respond when we are ignored, beaten and lost all that ur forefathers fought so bravely to defend over the last 200 years? We have lost little compared with what will be gained – as with any war in which we have taken a stand. My heart goes out to all those who have lost family members – I have lost several – but we live in a free country because we CAN fight for freedom and defend the freedoms we have so fiercely fought for – freedom is the main reason most people move to the United States.
Hope all the lucid minds have registered to vote…www.overseasvote.com can help overseas Americans to register, and enables non-US Citizens to do more than complain – they can send absentee voting info to their overseas American friends…
Trip wire mike, right to the point, I like it
I understand that this a very thought provoking image. It was made for someone to make a point. Although I don’t agree with it this person has a right to give their opinion. A hell of a lot more young men and women died to give them that right. I must say some of these “novels” posted here make me laugh. You have too much time on your hands. If you can’t do anything but put someone down you should not post. It really doesn’t accomplish anything.
Well, we could make one for the 9-11 victims, the 3-11 victims, the Rawanda victims, or the other ~7000 or so who have fallen at the hands of your terrorist heros.
http://www.nrc.nl/buitenland/artikel/1082091676491.html
Well, the United States military is definintly lying about casualties, they claim 20 to 30 attacks one a day with 1 deadly casualty, i dont know how you take this but 1 bullet is lethal, not to mention roadside bombs which can kill 2-3-4-5( thats per attack), or RPG’s . Lets have some comparisms.
On Ashura on early march, more than 100 Iraqi’s died in Karbala. You have seen that picture of a mortar round exploding in a crowd. If that made so much casualties, than how would be dozens of mortar attacks on U.S. bases daily, roadside bombs, helicopter crashes.
Also about helicopter crashes; Chechen rebels shot down a Russian helicopter with a Surface to Air missile that made more than 120 kills, there were no survivors.
on the 2nd of November an American Chinook helicopter gets hit by a Surface to Air missile; result? 16 kills , 21 wounded? Hello??? more wounded than kills, I don’t know about you guys, but you should definintly watch war battles and see how these things explode; The missile impact(causes great heat in helicopter) + Ground impact (jump off a building, see what happens with you(not to mention metal parts from helicopter) + Fuel explosion( well this speaks for itself).
The American military doesnt want to give all these information , because americans will criticize the administration; like the POW’s in the early days of war(the government didn’t let domestic american channels broadcast because of criticism)
I ‘m not saying that I like casualties but people, make your minds work.
I believe that there are some 2500-3000 casualties since 18 March 2003.
Thats only my prediction.
Just to let you guys wonder…….
If U.S. stays for 4-5 years , you would have 15000-20000 casualties, and if resistance intensifies.
Lets see, Americans go to Iraq to get rid of Sadam. They do it. Now they want to get rid of the terror in the country. Was there terror there before they got there? Probably not as much as now. The boarders are not being protected so other countries bad guys are coming in. But thats not the biggest problem. [EDIT: Anti-semitic content removed.]
This comment is for the blogger who wrote comment #295 above, in direct response to his last six sentences:
This is the type of distorted, racial hatred and myth-making that not only echoes the insecure, delusional ignorance of the most vicious terrorists and demagogues of past and present, but continually perpetuates, seeks to empower and wrongly facilitates the corrupt and insidious power jockeying and arcane rhetoric of such destructive, degrading, sociopathic misanthropes and maladjusts.
We all understand that this type of language has historically been mitigated and deployed by such manipulative narcissists for the sole purpose of creating a convenient, classic misperception — in order to spread the cancer of their own foul agendas for the sole purpose of self-empowerment at the expense of others (i.e., classic scapegoating, misinformation and deflection from their true purposes — think “schoolyard bullies” and what they’re all about).
We are all onto you and your kind Rod, so kindly crawl back to the cesspool from which you came, and get your vile, ignorant, hate-mongering self back to your maker post haste.
One final note about your resurrection of “The Final Solution” as a work-in-progress: It is both revealing and apres pro that you chose this particular forum to spread your mutating, communicable disease, as there appears to be many here looking to either seek or express political validation, and further demystify their understanding regarding the meaning of contemporary America, our great experiment in democracy, the true value of patriotism and its relevance to the current war in Iraq. This seemingly tame yet viably political forum must truly have appeared to you to be the perfectly pristine, undisturbed, natural and pure body of water in which to dump your toxic waste.
Additional wisdom for fellow readers, patriots and all human beings of good conscience: think for yourself, do your own research, and don’t believe every Tom, Dick, Adolph and Usama that comes along — be a critical thinker, don’t accept the status quo, and always remember — power corrupts (9.5 out of 10 participants observed), and money (like it or not) is the root of all evil.
Most importantly, please don’t forget the golden rule: Do Onto Others As You Would Have Others Do Onto You. As the human race, truly, we all are in this together — don’t let anyone divide and conquer YOU!
If we are paying $3.4 Billion per month for this “war”, sacrificing 12 of our young people per month, and killing thousands of innocent people in their own country, WHY do I pay $3 per gallon of gas? If we are to be accomplices to this plot, WHY are we not sharing the loot?. The United States recentlly GAVE Turkey a huge amount of fuel. WHY not take care of us people first, who are paying the bill so that Bush, Cheney, Runsfeld and their corporate sponsors get filthy rich.
I wouldn’t want any part of such evil enterprise. I am willing to pay the extra amount for the gas if we only stop killing. Mr. Bush, greed is a BAD thing, it comes back and bites on the ASS. Some call it Karma.
Hell! these people are so greedy that they are even overcharging us for their services. They can not stop stealing!
Peace.
289 – “Yes, it is our duty as the world’s number one free nation, to defend freedom not just for us but for those who ask for our help.”
So you mean to say that we invaded Iraq because the iraqis asked for our help, right? Mmmmm…. I tend to believe that was not the main reason…..
This post is addressed to Joseph of post #240 and anyone in his camp. In the first place, let me take the opportunity to answer the questions you posed to me. One, i am far from anti-Semitic. I am Jewish myself and i support Israel’s undeclared war against the Palestinians. I could not care less about what those [insert derogatory comment for Palestinians here] have to say, Israel has a right to defend itself. Next, you brought up an interesting point about why i still hate Japan even though we are no longer at war with them? I will acknowledge that you have at least some intelligence since you know that we are no longer at war. The thing is, “Joe,” that i know history. And i am not quick to forget it. nations that commit atrocities in my mind do not just get away with an easy “It’s all good, we’re not at war anymore.” You’re type of attitude is what leads people to repeat past mistakes since they’re so quick to forgive and forget. A nation should be held accountable for its actions, whether they were committed today or fifty years ago. i have a long list in my mind of nations i am not in favor of, and Japan and Germany are at the top of the list. i still feel that people who do not support this war do not understand how the world works.
Do we have to wait for terrorists to attack us before we respond? How can anyone with common sense honestly not see the threat Saddam Hussein posed to the United States? Rather than build up a nation with a good economic base from oil, he poured all of Iraq’s funds into developing weapons and, yes, supporting terrorist groups. A man with so much political power – who stood unchallenged because of the sheer fear he inspired into his own people – with access to funds and military equipment is the worst threat to the United States. This person built a career on being a threat from attacking Kuwait to refusing to comply with UN inspectors. The US army should have taken control of Iraq back during the Gulf War. It is a mystery to me why our nation always lets its opponents off so easily. And i will tell you why – because of the international community that you people all value. “America cannot act because the European Union does not support our actions.” Wow. The age of Europe is over. It had its chance for thousands of years before us, and it spent the majority of those years in war. Now it is just a handful of weak countries clinging to old memories of imperial greatness. From a point of view of strength, we do not have to listen to them. From a point of view of common sense, we do not have to listen to them. Terrorism is a threat to us. This is our war. Europe did not suffer a 9/11. In fact, they haven’t suffered anything. They are weak and spineless. Spain suffered a train bombing. I sympathize. But rather than rally up its forces and go after terrorism in renewed spirit – to make sure that those people did not die in vain – they changed their government and are currently withdrawing. Pathetic. That it what the terrorists want. Spain has given in to its demands. And even that is better than France, who only criticizes our policy and acts like a major player in the international arena when it has yet to show that terrorism is even an issue within its borders. When are you people going to take pride in the fact that you are Americans. We do not need Europe to make some positive changes in this world.
And Joe your critique of my entry makes no sense. I never said that the world should be Americanized. i was sticking to the issues at hand. I can’t see how you were able to fit this statement into your “argument”:
“Does it mean American world-domination, in which everyone and everything and I mean everything is �Americanised� to your satisfaction? Does it mean everyone in the world will have to be “white”,”
When the hell did i say everyone was supposed to be white. We are not engaging in a war to Americanize Iraq. We are eliminating a threat to ourselves. And then you have the nerve to call my argument childish when you are going off on irrelevant general tangents. You’re like a bad spouse who make pointless general statements cuz he/she can’t defend her argument with specifics.
I am not an idealist. I wont even stand here and say “there should be peace, peace.. There will never be war.” There will always be war. Because sometimes war is necessary to maintain peace. World War II was a war that had to be fought. The threat of Nazism had to be exterminated. This war on terrorism also has to be fought.
296 I am not into name calling I’ll leave that up to you. I am no fool as you would like people to believe. You on the other hand well I wont go into that. People are not sheep. Bush and you would like them to be though. I speak the truth and you seem to be some what intelligent so you do understand what I have said. You fear the truth but never fear it will come to past you’ll see. When it does you remember this thread. I am alot of things but I’m not a racist. How could I be I have no power to change anyones life. [EDIT: Anti-semitic content removed.]
[EDIT: Anti-semitic content removed.] 299 The feeling I get from you is: Anything that has to do with Anti-Islam you are with it. Do you know anythinmg about Saddam? All you know is what you hear on CNN. I cant stand war mongers. You are historically tied to war it seems you guys cant get enough of it. Patriotism the word stinks. Patriotism killed off the Indians. The same patriots are killing Palistinians and the Iraqi people. Oh and one more thing Kuwait was stolen from Iraq. Kuwait was part of Iraq for 4000 years so dont give me that stuff about Sadam trying to take Kuwait. How can you take something that was already yours. Sadam went into Kuwait because Kuwait was historically a part of Iraq. ENGLAND used Kuwait as a desert mail route from 1775-1889 .During that time the place was barren meaning not that many people lived there.England provided their own security during this time. England supposably gave Kuwait their independence back in 1961 during those years Kuwait was still Iraq. So for you to say Sadam tried to take Kuwait makes you sound real uneducated. Why dont you pick up a book before you type a word.
;
To Rod, comments #296, #301 and #302 (previously #295, #300 and #301):
You have been duped.
You are not particularly wrong about W, but don’t confuse what is happening in Israel with everything else that has transpired in Iraq — W’s interest in Israel has little to do with Israeli interests — it just looks that way to the uninformed, unresearched and unsuspecting outsider. Let us not forget that the U.N. mandated the state of Israel in 1948 (you mentioned Kuwait had belonged to Iraq, which is true — and by this same reasoning, please do not forget that Israel belonged to the Jews — hence its return by the United Nations in 1948, after more than a millennium of Jewish Diaspora, endless centuries of persecution and then finally horrifying genocide and near extinction, with nearly every nation of the world complicit in their silence and inaction); and also let us not forget that the U.N. simultaneously mandated a Palestinian State (apportioned from smaller and contiguous sections of Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria). Immediately thereafter — on the rebirth of the state of Israel — all surrounding Arab countries attacked the new state of Israel, and a few of the attacking Arab countries lost territory to Israel as a result. This massive attack by so many of the big and strong, Goliath-sized Arab countries against the tiny, Delaware-sized state of Israel yielded negative results for the Arab aggressors.
Syria, Lebanon and Jordan most certainly did not want to comply with the U.N. mandate and charter for a new Palestinian state that would have taken sections of THEIR territory. This, along with extreme anti-Semitism, was indeed all the motivation necessary for the orchestrated attack on Israel. Decade after decade, war declared against Israel after war, invasion after invasion, surprise attack after surprise attack (usually on the highest of Jewish holy days – you guys don’t fight fair) — Israel continuously found itself in the crosshairs of your Arabian friends. Meanwhile, both the Palestinian and Israeli peoples were pawns and rooks to be manipulated on the big middle-eastern chessboard, such strategically located, tiny little sand castles! Who’s kidding whom, in this stupid game?
In recent ensuing decades and increasingly so to this very day, the Palestinians receive incredible amounts of money from sympathizers (individual as well as state donors) but where does all this money go? It is not to help the Palestinian people build hospitals and schools, roads and infrastructure, or to grow food and make clothing — since 1948, few leaders from any Arab country ever said “We must help the Palestinian people help themselves” — no — except in one area and one area only: warfare. The Arab regimes simply could care less about the Palestinian people – they never did and they never will – only insofar as it propels their own agenda for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people as a whole. This has always been the case (ever since Abraham – the very first iconoclast and maverick — broke the idols in Ur and started a spiritual revolution that manifested into the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam). And it always will be the case, until the tribal dictators of these Arab countries share their wealth with their own people, and stop pointing their greedy, fat, bejeweled fingers at Israel. If Israel has had to defend itself against such incredible extremism and hatred since its inception, then you must trace back your pointing finger to yourself and its very first attackers against the U.N. created state of Israel in 1948.
It is this extremism and hatred that is echoed in your words – that of racism and greed, plain and simple, the very basis of all demagoguery and despotism. What power do you have, you ask? – the same as anyone else – the power to think. So why don’t you start doing some of that? It would be a very refreshing surprise, especially to you. How preposterous to purport that American soldiers are giving up their lives so Israel could have Iraqi oil, and even more ridiculous, so Israelis could move to Iraq! Egads! There aren’t any Israelis in the Carlysle Group – it’s the W fellows and the SAUDIS! Oh my, how you must be in shock from hearing that one.
Rod, thou art a malfunctioning parasite, and I do believe that you are completely out of your mind (and if not, a devious propagandist, or more than likely, just a dupe, or maybe even a dogmatic, zealous stooge for Hammas.) Get over it and get real, before they come to get YOU! Or is it just that you so terribly crave that posthumous virgin experience thing, that line of superstitious hocus pocus, sold to mesmerize you and others like you into compliance (and suicide)? Yeah, these are real caring people. “Let them eat cake” types. “Don’t cry for me” types. Get your facts straight, or you just might wind up as a used camel salesman in that great big sand cloud in the sky. Name-calling? The only name we know is yours, Rod. The rest of it is just grammar.
Let it be written, let it be done — nothing you write henceforth on the subject of Israel or of the brave, enduring Jewish people (YOUR unacknowledged ancestors might I add, to whom you’ve made so sad with your stupid scribblings and terrorist cell-like chatter) matters once I finish typing this last period.
READERS, PLEASE NOTE:
I have noticed that comments are now off by one number. For example, Comment #297 was previously comment #296, and comment #296 was actually #295 — when they were written — this is important because comments often refer to previous commentary numbers. This could be quite confusing and misleading, so it would be best to go by the actual names of the writers/bloggers (i.e, “T. Jefferson” responding to “Rod”, then “Rod” responding back to “T. Jefferson”, etc. — ignoring the commentary numbers, which must have been changed by the webmaster.
Also, please note that the webmaster has removed portions of “Rod’s” commentary due to its anti-Semitic nature, but much of my commentary (now as comment #297 responding to comment #296) was based on the virulent hate-speech rhetoric he used (when his comment was still #295). That IS confusing, isn’t it!
A tutti gli Spagnoli (in particolare a quelli a favore del ritiro immediato): Vergogna.
Federico, Rome, Italy.
English version:
To all the Spanish people (and particulalry, to the ones favouring an immediate withdrawal of Spanish troops): Shame On You!
Federico,
Rome, Italy.
على جورج بوش أن يكون أكثر حكمة لأن دماء الجنود يتحملها هو وجدير الذكر أن دموع أمهاتهم وزوجاتهم وأنسبائهم ستنصب غضبا على حضرة جانبه الأرعن …
فليسأل نفسه : هل كان ليرسل نفسه أو ولده لهذه الحرب ؟
please do no teach freedon to the spanish whashington did support franco one of the biger dictateur of the 20C for 40 years ,overs 2 millions of them kill for the glory of america pax
Just as in Vietnam, Cambodia et al – the American people cannot see beyond their own war dead.
TO GIVE SOME OF YOU LIBERALS SOMETHING TO GRUMBLE ABOUT.
Food for thought…
Worst president in history?
The following appeared in the Durham, NC local paper as a letter to the
editor. Please forward to all on your list as this will put things in
perspective:
Liberals claim President Bush shouldn’t have started this war. They complain
about his prosecution of it. One liberal recently claimed Bush was the
worst president in U.S. history. Let’s clear up one point: We didn’t start the war
on terror. Try to remember, it was started by terrorists BEFORE 9/11.
Let’s look at the “worst” president and mismanagement claims.
FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From
1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
Truman finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never
attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of
18,333
per year.
John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.
Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were
lost an average of 5,800 per year.
Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never
attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden’s head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated
two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear
inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and
captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. We lost
600 soldiers, an average of 30 a year. Bush did all this abroad while not
allowing another terrorist attack at home.
Worst president in history? Come on!
The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but…
It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the
Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.
We’ve been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less
time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.
It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy
the Medina Republican Guard than it took Teddy Kennedy to call the police
after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.
It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!
Our military and our President are GREAT! PASS IT ON.
Comment #18 is the typical extremist venom of ignorance. Attacks on Japan and on Iraq are in different times and for MUCH different reasons.
I’m getting confused, who replied on #295?
The pro-Bush comments above are very disturbing. No wonder the USA is by far the most hated nation on earth.
To the writers of 300 and 309, I could not have said it better, to the point.
NY Times article “No Time For Bullies: Baboons Retool Their Culture” by NATALIE ANGIER 04.13.04
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/13BABO.html?pagewanted=print&position
very interesting article about male baboons gone ‘rogue’ and how the baboon culture changes when they die off because of food poisoning. peace prevails when the mean/rogue males are gone.
this iraq war is bush’s/republican mess…. bush MISLED the american public even w/the queda/iraq connection when there was none.
politics is a dirty business, but the problem here is what bush did was ‘pre-emptive’ war. wmd or not, i believe the democrats would have found a better way to get rid of hussein rather than the deplorable way bush and his administration has ‘done’. getting rid of hussein had always been an issue but no president in his/her right mind would have gotten us involved in this mess in iraq … but we will never really know. let there be no mistake… bush is a liar! on more topics than this! bush ought to have been better versed in iraq history: perhaps he ought to have asked the british about it or cracked a history book.
presidency bush is the result of the supreme court voting him into office. we had a coup for the presidency in the u.s. and it succeeded but nobody seemed to know what was going on except the players in the republican party and florida. oh, what a world…. btw, gore did get the popular vote. bush is an ass (in my eyes) and not the president elected by the people.
there is a wrongness with the way war is thrust upon us when there is ALWAYS a better alternative. but once bush went in to iraq he played the hand whereby wmd must be found; because there was none discovered, for whatever reason, this is bush’s debacle and in my mind he is as a deplorable an idiot like quale was/is.
why does the republican party (process) dredge up idiots who are incapable of communicating w/proper syntax… quale, bush.. surely they have better to offer the voters….
Props to the Writer of #309- that was great and VERY TRUE!!! Bush has done a GREAT JOB!!! I am so tired of hearing people say “but they are dying- get us out” well, these soldiers chose to go to war for Freedom. There is a price for freedom.
EVERYONE MUST READ #309!!!
Can anyone here interpret comment #306 – which is in Arabic – into English?
Thank you.
To Some1:
You asked: “I’m getting confused, who replied on #295? ”
I was not replying to your comment, which is NOW #295. At the time I was responding, your comment was #294 — a comment by “ROD” was #295 at that time. It was to Rod’s comment that I was responding, not yours. That’s why you are getting confused (who wouldn’t?). The blog has been thrown off by one number, so you have to go by the names of the commentators/bloggers instead of by the comment numbers.
NOTE TO READERS:
COMMENT #297 REFERS TO COMMENT #296 BY Rod, NOT COMMENT #295 by some1.
The numbers have since thrown off by one since I wrote my comment.
Also, the portion of Rod’s commentary that I was responding to has since been deleted by the webmaster, due to its racist language. Kudos to the webmaster for running a responsible website and staying on top of things.
How lame that the pictures are used multiple times.
I have read many comments, but haven’t seen any references as to where people are getting there information. As an American trying to make informed decisions on how to exercise my voting rights it scares the HELL out of me to think there are so many eligible voters out there that will help decide the fate of our country on what sounds like our “HOLLYWOOD ELITE”( AND THEIR FOREIGN POLICY EXPERTISE). Instead of focusing on the issues and discussing them everyone (without giving facts and the sources where these facts can be researched ) assumes by posting a message they will sway anyones view point. This should be point – conterpoint. Isn’t that a stimmulating concept. It would be alot more productive than name calling and finger pointing.
As i said in my post #295, America is lying
Take a look here, never denied nor confirmed
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1130577,00.html
To J Foshee: Who has time to cite sources, and keep a stack of books, magazines, newspapers and a bibliography at their side while writing commentary on a blog. Some people here are merely giving their opinions, which they are entitled to do without having to comply with the rules of journalism. It would be NICE to have sources, but no one is twisting anyone’s arm to read or write these things. As far as name calling and finger pointing, that’s going to happen from time to time when people are responding to outrageous remarks. Do your own research to form your opinions — no one can depend solely on a blog site.
Has anyone ever considered how simple it would be to just nuke Iraq. No problems. After 40 or 50 years when the radiation clears up, we can begin a restructuring of the nation from the ground up (literally).
Hey Jake — it’s a darned good thing YOU’RE not running for government office. Your reasoning is straight out of Dr. Strangelove. If you’re not familiar with the film, I highly recommend you rent it. Pay particular attention to the ending.
Vote Bush in 2004!
Jake first off thank you. Thank you for allowing me (us) to get a better understanding where you’re coming from. My intention was never to attack posters on this discussion board personally nor am I enjoying doing that….. far from it, the last thing I want to do is to further split America (go against my fellow American Brother/ Sister) with useless/ senseless agruments.
But and that’s a big BUT you have to realize what you said initially (post #236) doesn’t make much sense at all.
Your,
///If i had it my way, the middle east would have long been occupied by us, and then we would not have any trouble with those bastards.///
/// I AM DELIBERATELY REFERRIN TO THEM AS JAPS///
///the Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future
///kill their own children just so you can look at their pictures and feel sorry.///
Those comments are so ridiculous, so out of context and they seem to me lack of any intelligent thought behind them. Granted they are your own. And I’ll be the last person on earth to prevent you from saying (giving) those words on the net or anywhere….. and I did say from my previous post (#240) ///I suggest you restraint yourself from posting on the internet or speaking to another human being for that matter. You sir, are an idiot./// yet that is only a SUGGESTION (from my part), nothing personal. If I did offended you I apologize.
But back to the point I want to make…. and before I do that I want you to know too that I am desperately trying to avoid the kind of the long-drawn-out back and forth I talked about earlier, which unfortunately I will have to do here now.
Let’s condense this conversation and cut to the chase shall we?
You said (post #300),
///let me take the opportunity to answer the questions you posed to me.///
Unfortunately you NEVER did answer the one question (among the many that stemed from that one) I (really) wanted you to reply, ie, How and when are you going to be satisfied by how the world works?
Of course I know you’re going say you aren’t anti-Semitic….. or that you aren’t ‘racist’…… or that you hold no hatred against others….. they’re expected and given and I don’t expect anything less from you. But the point I was trying to make was (and still is) NOT to trivialize your moral standing or your moral judgement as much as I want to explore the reasoning(s) behind your way of thinking or your ‘knack’ if you will with the war and US politics of international issues in general. Are you following me so far?
You see what troubles me in your conversation are things like,
this,
/// I could not care less about what those [insert derogatory comment for Palestinians here] have to say, Israel has a right to defend itself///
or this,
/// i have a long list in my mind of nations i am not in favor of, and Japan and Germany are at the top of the list. i still feel that people who do not support this war do not understand how the world works.///
or,
/// This is our war. Europe did not suffer a 9/11.///
In the first instance, I do agree that Israel has an absolute right to defend itself. No questions about it whatsoever. But problem with that is to defend itself against “what”? Japanese? Russians? Mexicans? Palestinians? The first three are obviously out of context to what I’m discussing here… so naturally the forth one, the Palestinians, those ‘pesky’ (in your mind) Palestinians is what Israel has to defend against, right? But is it really? On the surface, blanketing an entire group of folks is only natural and easy to do when they are commiting murder (and I’m not hiding the fact that it is plain o’ heinous murder) en-mass using ‘kamikaze-style’ tactics to advance their cause….. it’s tragic and some may say (me included btw) terror! Yet the fact that indicates ‘some’ Palestinians are commiting murder and terror also indicates the fact that this murderous despicable act(s) is not without cause and not at all the majority of the mindset within the ‘entire’ Palestinian (and to a more general extent Arab) population. You have to realize that.
You HAVE TO care about what the Palestinians have to say. You cannot deny their rights and most importantly because that is in Israel’s best interest. When you are declaring war(s) and erecting fences and building “unpopular” settlements and making your opponent as misable as possible….. no wonder negotiations fail or even a simple dialogue is hard to make between the two sides….. and it would nearly be impossible to have any decent conversation or (much less) to “care about” what the other has to say. And vice versa from the Palestinian perspective. I understand perfectly what you’re coming from but like I said ‘ignoring’ (and “not caring about what the other” is ‘ignoring’) is just not an option that you can choose to make. Because it has tragic consequence.
Negotiations are hard (obviously and in fact history has shown) but without perhaps some compromises and at the very least some mininal ‘respect’, including caring about what the other side has to say– you don’t even need to agree with them but just listen is the very least you can do, goes a long long way…. don’t you think? So by saying… actually more like flaming with the issue, ie, your /// the Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future. They kill their own children just so you can look at their pictures and feel sorry./// or ///insert derogatory comment for Palestinians here/// doesn’t help matter whatsoever and in fact hurts it….. digging deeper and deeper in this life-threatening, instability-inducing, families-suffering hell-hole of “hatred”….. I don’t know how much more direct I can put it. And I’m not only talking in terms of just one side. Both the Israelis and Palestinians have everything to loose. I hope you at least understand that.
Now for the second quote, I’m not a person who’s naive… and I’m certainly not a person who adamantly aren’t in favor of so-called ‘wars’. But you have to realize again, that is it worth the cause and worth the sacrifices for such “action”? I like how one person here on the boards put it (post #249)…. his or her apporach on war is similar to my line of thinking as well, particularly the ‘last resort’ part. You say it is (worth the sacrifices) with the explanation that it will damper the threat from terrorism (right?) but I ask you are we (ie the current ‘American crusade’) really doing that? Is that what the reality is (like) in the world today? That is why I asked you the question of your opinion of how the world works… and I do mean HOW it works. And I’ll tell you right now that it is NOT black and white. It is NOT either I’m with you or I’m against you. It is NOT the word Palestinian or Arab or Afghani or Iraqi or Islam or Muslim synonymous with the word “terrorist” or “terrorism”. It is NOT as easy as going into a campaign of “(decades old) regime change” with only few months of planning, with unilateral grounds even though you have the most powerful military institution on earth. It is NOT a quick and easy task to instill the education and principles of “freedom” or “democracy” into a world that historically is otherwise but not only that its principles and values is vastly different… and different in a way that we cannot even imagine. Not that I’m saying their ways of doing things over there are right or wrong (in fact if they (middle easterners) are as miserable and horrible as you had suggested, ie, your /// Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future. They kill their own children…./// then how could their culture and their people from the Turks to Persians or from the Saudis to Kurds survived for millennia (a bit of a stretch but you get the idea) …. mind you they live on a region that had the oldest civilization on earth. They must be doing something ‘right’ or at least doing something ‘constructive’, right?) …..again I hope you put in some good thought into these kinds of issues before you make judgement….. alright?
Look, contrary to what you believe, I’m not entirely against your opinion either.
Your,
///You’re type of attitude is what leads people to repeat past mistakes since they’re so quick to forgive and forget. A nation should be held accountable for its actions, whether they were committed today or fifty years ago. i have a long list in my mind of nations i am not in favor of, and Japan and Germany are at the top of the list. i still feel that people who do not support this war do not understand how the world works. ///
I might be a person gulity of ‘forgiveness’ but certainly NOT ‘forgetful’. I do understand and learn and know the history of the two world wars and the history leading up to them. I’m not in anyway an expert on it but at least I do know the atrocities commited by the “enemy states” (ie Japan and Germany) ….and you might be suprised to know that I am very much in favor of World War 2 and I do recognize that our way of life, our democracy, our freedom was genuinely threathened (but unfortunately I cannot say the same in today’s context) and we just needed to do something about it. You’re right, nations need to be held accountable… in fact individuals need to be as well, just as a guilty murderer needs to be sentenced and punished. But just as Japan and Germany was guilty of their crimes, unfortunately, Israel and the United States are awfully close in terms of committing similar acts. Now, before you get all rattled up and use that as a quote to condemn my words, hear me out. You have to think in these issues in the most basic of terms. You have to recognize that Palestinians, Iraquis, Afghanis and others are just like you and I, human beings. I’m not saying that as some cheezy cliche but to point out to you that the reality is Palestinians suffer from this conflict, the Iraquis and the Afghanis as well are tens of hundreds or even thousands of times worse than any september 11 or any single terrorist suicide attack. Because the technology gap between America or Israel and their “enemies” (I’m not talking about Al Queda terrorists but just the conventional enemy soldiers) has such a big gap, the line between the action of “defending” and “committing atrocity” is very thin and often it is blurred that we mere ‘observers’ may never know the truth…. what really is happening out there. It is a concern. Now am I saying that the US has committed atrocities so far in the Iraq conflict? No I’m not. Am I suggesting that we should stop all military intervention around the world (ie stopping all combat operations on terrorism and let Osama and his goons run free)? Of course NOT. But what I’m saying again is that we must think about these kinds of issues more carefully and really think about them seriously. 3000 people lost their lives on a terrible terrible day but what are we willing to do to take vengence against that attack? How far are we willing to go? Does it make sense to deploy special forces in foreign countries to eliminate the enemy? Or does it make sense to deploy a large chunk of the army to occupy a country? Or does it make sense to drop 2 big ones, just like the ones on Japan ending that conflict? What do you think make sense?
And finally, your third quote.
I’m sorry but you’re wrong. Europe did suffer 911 and not only Europe, Southeast Asia (specifically the Indonesian night club bombing…. btw it took place in one of the largest Muslim populated countries in the world) and countless other terror acts instigated by Al Queda and similar groups.
Look, the simple fact of the matter is terrorists know no bounds. They operate in Afghanistan, they operate in Spain and they operate in the United States. That is what we are fighting against. Not muslims, not Arabs, not Iraq, not Afghanistan. Are you starting to get the idea?
/// We do not need Europe to make some positive changes in this world.///
You need EVERYONE to make positive changes in this world. If we care more about our egos than the real “greater good” of the world (world as in earth, not just within the boundaries of the United States of America or Israel) then it doesn’t matter how many times we carpet bomb our ‘enemies’, doesn’t matter how long the campaign is, doesn’t matter how powerful we can develop our weapons or how superior ours from ‘them’, or how many soldiers are deploying, we couldn’t possibly win. The prize is PEACE and to a lesser extent ‘freedom’ ….. Bush is right on with his words but his action speaks otherwise. You have to realize that.
That is why I asked the question(s),
–How and when are you going to be satisfied by how the world works? ie, when can we finally enjoy ‘peace’?
–Does it mean American world-domination, in which everyone and everything and I mean everything is “Americanised” to your satisfaction? ie, does that mean the rest of the world have to bow their heads towards “America” in order to survive?
–When are you going to be satisfied so there won’t ever be military campaigns anymore? ie, just like the question asked… when can we finally get our prize of ‘peace’ and ‘freedom’ that we worked so hard to fight for?
–How are you going to end this so-called “threat” by terrorism or whatever the (external) entity it may be and finally be satisfied enough to change that ‘t’ word into something otherwise (examples of Germany and Japan comes to mind to what I’m getting at)? ie, when can we finally call Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran etc etc. our ‘ally’ instead as the ‘enemy’ or ‘axis-of-evil’?
…..and btw I insinuated that you are “racist” since you tend to poorly convey your words (or it could very well be who you are since I really don’t know you) ……ie I said,
///Does it mean everyone in the world will have to be “white”, since you brought up and in fact endorsed the “Jap” comment and as far as I know currently we are NOT at war with Japan so why there is still a hatred towards them is beyond me?///
Your less than flattering comments and your uncompromising terms (ie, DELIBERATELY REFERRIN… or insert derogatory comment) on Arab Palestinians and Japanese folks alike gives us, the reader, with no choice but to judge you for what you are- a racist.
I’m sorry but evidence speaks for itself. Unless you explain further.
Ok, I’ve said what I wanted to say. Feel free to vent me.
🙂
To Nr 317 ,
You ask somebody to traduced what I said, so I can do it …
Arabic : على جورج بوش أن يكون أكثر حكمة لأن دماء الجنود يتحملها هو وجدير الذكر أن دموع أمهاتهم وزوجاتهم وأنسبائهم ستنصب غضبا على حضرة جانبه الأرعن …
فليسأل نفسه : هل كان ليرسل نفسه أو ولده لهذه الحرب ؟
English : ” George Bush must be wiser in his stupid decisions, he is the reponsable of the blood pours by the soldiers in Iraq, while never not forgetting the tears of their wives und their mothers, revenge will be close. What it requires same, dares he go in Iraq like soldiers ? dares he send his child like soldier to this war?”
He should stop to support the Zioniste !!! When you want many info :
http://www.mideastfacts.com/selfa_zionism.html
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/cliff/isrviol.htm
http://www.qana.net/
I was in Q8 for the last 4 weeks before the war and the first few days of the war. Met up with a lot of (very) young men and women from both Britain and the US ( Sorry Aussies I missed you) They were well motivated and prepared to do the dirty work for political failures. But many many of them , especially the US boys asked me the same question ‘Do you think we should be here’ They are the only ones who can say if it was right or wrongly run. Yes some of them died, maybe needlessly in some cases. But that has always been the way of war. My answer was always the same’ Saddam is a murdering gobsh**e who needs stopping’ And that is the fact. It may be that GB and Tony have lied, that is not a shock surely, even George Washington fixed his expenses. Politicians lie, anyone who thinks different can buy this bridge in Brooklyn that I have for sale. The Fighting men and women did their duty as best they could, they deserve total support and sympathy. But the picture makes a statement they may not agree with. Maggie Thatcher had killed hundreds of Argentinian sailors, my opinion only. Thanks to the Forces I have the right to that opinion. Now the Iraqis have it too, may they remember why they have it, and who paid its heavy price
Andrew- would you say “only 600” if one was your sister? If it was “only one” it would be too many.
Phil your #329 if I may,
You said,
///They were well motivated and prepared to do the dirty work for political failures. But many many of them , especially the US boys asked me the same question ‘Do you think we should be here’ They are the only ones who can say if it was right or wrongly run. Yes some of them died, maybe needlessly in some cases. But that has always been the way of war. My answer was always the same’ Saddam is a murdering gobsh**e who needs stopping’ And that is the fact. It may be that GB and Tony have lied, that is not a shock surely, even George Washington fixed his expenses. Politicians lie, anyone who thinks different can buy this bridge in Brooklyn///
The thing is just like what you have said, the “action” already took place and because we can never turn back the clock to undo what’s done or (still) doing…. we can only do our very best and hope for a better outcome in a very difficult situation. Sympathy and support for the troops are only natural and certainly deserved.
Yet the problem I’m trying to raise is, let’s be blunt about this, when are we going to stop voting for Bush? When are we, as the American public– the ultimate decision maker, going to prevent some dumbass making stupid decisions at the expense of us (our own pockets, our own lives, our own children, our own economy, our own freedom etc etc.)
You mentioned political failure…. you’re right but you also failed to mention how that failure came into place and you hadn’t gone far enough to realize that very failure should be and is the focal point here ….. answer me this, are YOU going to vote for Bush in office in the coming election? Because if you are then everything you pointed out about supporting the troops and all that ‘jazz’ are nothing but lies and frankly pointless.
Look, political failure is the problem here. If Bush hadn’t directed resources and troops to Iraq…. if Bush had waited (for another year for example) for UN approval and backing of the international community….. if Bush hadn’t squandered whatever the last remaining “surpluses” we had from the Clinton handover…. if Bush wasn’t too keen on satisfying his obligations to (his) God more than his obligations to the greater American public…… if Bush is doing his job as what a president is supposed to be (ie, at least competent) then perhaps I wouldn’t be as critical of him as I am now. In fact the country wouldn’t be as divided and “fucked up” as it is now…. pardon my language.
Why do you think we have the 911 commission? Why do you think the whistle blowers finally come out from under the rocks and go public with their books to finally tell the truth….. I can tell you right now it has little (or nothing) to do with the events of 911 or the war on terror…. it has everything to do with the war on Iraq. The blunder on Bush’s decision to go to Iraq is what sparked the 911 commission…. everybody, deep down inside, knows we could never have prevented 911 with the kind of inefficient system of the CIA or FBI or whatever intelligence community we had in place in those days and frankly from top to bottom everyone failed in some way and everyone was responsible but nobody would be stupid enough to admit to anything… let alone finding the gulity through some ad hoc committee. If Bush had been more competent and intelligent enough to do a better job on the Afghanistan front, ie, perhaps by now we would’ve killed or captured Bin Laden and other senior members of Al Queda, the 911 commission would never have been necessary. If all our resources had been directed towards the ‘noble’ cause of (really) fighting terrorism then 500 plus soldiers wouldn’t had died on Iraqi soil and billions would’ve been saved or maybe directed towards the Afghan front.
The bottom line is the replacement for W Bush’s presidency is as easy as going to your next door neighbour and have him or her to run for the country. I’m pretty sure the country is going to get better because of it.
In response to post# 309 Subject: Worst President in History?
The writer of post #309 said “FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: ! Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112, 500 per year.”
My response: Any student of US Naval history knows that the Germans not only
declared war on the US on December 11 1941, Italy did also, and German U boats began attacking inside US waters within days.
Operation Drum, the German UBoat campaign, was succesful in conducting attacks inside jacksonville, NY and the
Deleware water gap during early 1942
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/gerdec41.htm
http://www.feldgrau.com/january.html)
– Of course if you logically listen to the writer of post #309, we should have left Nazi Germany alone.
The author of post #309 says “Truman finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never
attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per year.
My response: That’s true, but irrelevant. South Korea was a US ally, asked for help in the UN, and UN forces led the campaign to repel NK, and later Chinese troops.)
#309 says: “John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never
attacked us. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives
were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.”
My response: Most people regard Vietnam as a disaster, leading to the loss of
50,000 decent Americans and billions in dollars.
#309 says: Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent . Bosnia
never attacked us.
My response: Actually Clinton had UN consent to act to stop the civil war in Bosnia.
#309 says: “In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has
liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear
inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and
captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. We lost
600 soldiers, an average of 300 a year. Bush did all this abroad while not
allowing another terrorist attack at home.
My response: “If, by ‘liberated two countries” you mean Afghanistan and Iraq, I would disagree. Afghanistan is under the control of regional warlords, most of whom were allies of the Taliban. Mohammad Karzai, while nominally in charge of the state has a total army of less than 9000 men, and controls very little of the actual country outside of Kabul.
As for al-Qaeda, they are still operating in Afghanistan and Pakistan, something Bush knew before he started this mess in Iraq.
Libya has admitted it had a nuclear program. But it’s not clear that they ever were close to producing even a single weapon.
Iran and North Korea’s have not been consistently and fully cooperative with ANY international inspection regime. I wouldn’t call that a success.
As for Saddam being captured, you forget that we was an ally of ours under Bush Jr.s father all the way up to the start of the first Gulf War. The 300,000 Iraqis that you say he killed apparently didn’t bother the conscience of Bush Sr. or Bush Jr.
Anyone reading this should first look at number 309. Awesome.
Joseph…we are both grown men and since weve exchanged a number of heated responses on this subject, it is safe to say that we are past the stage of lying to each other. So, number 1, i will not conceal the fact that i do not like you and your idealistic approach to eevrything. Number 2, im not going to conceal the fact that i only skimmed your last article since it is just so long and boring to read. I already knew your viewpoints. However, i must admit that you and this has entertained me to a great degree these past few days. Everyday, my two online activities now involve checking my stocks and checking this board to see what else you have written that i can object to. So thank you for that. And now back to our debate…
I have to start with your comments on the Palestinians. In the first place, i dont recognize that they are like me. In fact, i am repulsed by any association with them. Number 2, i dont acknowledge theyre so-called pain and suffering. Who are you kidding? They bring all their problems upon themselves. Israel has tried to make agreements with them in the past, going so far as to even offer them the west bank for territory. The palestinians dont want to negotiate. They want to make outrageous demands to draw this conflict out – hence my statement that they dont care about promoting peace or tryign to resolve this conflict in the middle east. Do you know that in 1948, when the United Nations created Israel, it offered to create a homeland for the Palestinians, but of course they refused. They wanted all of Palestine, and the other Muslim nations assured them that they could have it after Israel got defeated. However, im very sorry to say Joseph that Israel kind of screwed up their plans when it never got defeated. And now the Palestinians want a country that they refused all along. You want to know what their demands are from Israel – a nation created out of Israel with half of Jerusalem. You think its reasonable that Israel give up half of its holy city?? The Palestinians dont deserve Jerusalem. It has no significance for them. Their holy cities are Mecca and Medina, and even if Jerusalem was a holy city, who has the MUCH older religion? So, in my eyes, if youve got the Palestinians saying that they wont settle for anything short of a handout of land of the utmost historical and religious importance, then that means that they simply want to keep this conflict going. Which they do. I dont care what you say. Those suicide bombers are being recruited from the ranks of the Palestinians. Youre problem is that your disillusioned. You draw some kind of line between terrorist networks acting in Israel (like Hamas) and the Palestinian people. To quote you, my friend, the world is not BLACK and WHITE. There is no such line. Hamas can operate because the people support it. When Israel assassinated a Hamas leader, the people turned him into a martyr – as if he was a national hero. That sounds promising doesnt it? So dont tell me to listen to them because, personally, ive been through with that. Im all too happy that finally Israel has started to fight terror with terror. And Bush’s recognition of Israel’s right to defend itself is just another reason for me to support him.
How far should we go in Iraq? I think that was your question, paraphrased. Until we have stamped out all internal rebellion in the country. When those people in Fallujah – and i am restraining myself from calling them any names here because i want to avoid you using it as a large part of your article since you really have nothing else to talk about – brutally murdered those four contractors, our military sieged the city. That is what we should do. That was a right step. Any fundamentalist, any pro-saddam faction that has displayed its intent to use violence to oppose our efforts must be eliminated. Its a threat not only to our forces but also to the Iraqi people who oppose Hussein. And if that means that we have to destroy certain cities, risk certain casualties, bring more troops to Iraq, then so be it. Part of the reason that our troops are getting killed is because were taking so much “precautions.” Precautions everywhere. If we struck out at full strength, what chance do a couple of terrorists stand against our forces? How many of our troops would die then? Not a lot. But because people like you are calling for “restrainment” – “for less civilian casualties in Iraq” and what not – our army casualties are making up for the difference. In war, its them or us. War technology has changed. The principle hasnt. Its a sad fact of life. But it is them or us. If we take it easy on them, our troops will suffer. But in response to your question, we have to keep going until we are done. Notice how in Afghanistan there is barely any resistance to our troops. Even the military tribes of the mountains – who are out of reach of the control of the new government there – dont mind the changes in the nation as long as they are left alone. The taliban is gone and the country is becoming stable. When Iraq is pacified to that extent, then we can move on to other nations….and i hope we do move on to other nations and continue with this war on terrorism. Our unforeseen halt in Iraq has resulted in our actions is being viewed as simply a war on Iraq. Its still very much a war on terrorism. Its been hindered slightly. But as long as Bush is in office it will succeed eventually. And ill be there to give Bush that vote to keep him in office and finish what he started.
Jake I’ll just forget about your opinion on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, since it seems to me your bias has consumed you to the point of senselessness…. so I’ll just talk about your comment on the Iraq war.
///strength, what chance do a couple of terrorists stand against our forces? How many of our troops would die then? Not a lot. But because people like you are calling for “restrainment” – “for less civilian casualties in Iraq” and what not – our army casualties are making up for the difference.///
Are you kidding me? If the US military policy, at its very core, fundamentally, is just like how you described it, then the military is screwed. Forget about being the greatest military power on earth. It’s a circus, and I’m not exaggerating.
Look, why would any commander/ general/ chief jeopardize the lives of our men and women in uniform for civilians? It’s the most basic ‘rule’ any military person can testify to…. is to protect our own FIRST and above all else. Do you think for one second that any military campaign would consider saving some iraqi child or woman over the lives of a convoy of troops, for example?
The military, in terms of planning and executing for a campaign, doesn’t give a rat’s ass about anyone and especially the “enemy”, except perhaps how to eradicate them. This is what “war” is all about. It’s what the reality of war is about….. That is why I’m so adamant about going into a war as only the last resort after all other avenues are exhausted. War is not a joke, my friend.
And history proves that once war has started, civilians and innocent folks have alot to lose and they WILL lose, regardless of a little peace-protest-rally might say or some computer nerd like me say about ‘restrainment’ or call for ‘precautions’….. because once war starts, all hell breaks lose. Any person that tells you any side who involved in a war isn’t gulity of any human rights violations is lying to their teeth. America is no different. From WW2 to Korea to Vietnam to Gulf to the current war in Iraq, civilians have alot to lose and America is just as guilty as the enemy… it doesn’t make it any better if coalition troops die in huge numbers or face a humiliating defeat in battle….. civilians will die and suffer. The ONLY way to prevent that and to counter it is NOT going to war in the first place. Do you get it?
It doesn’t matter if you like me or not. It doesn’t matter if you hate me or not. It doesn’t matter if you think I’m nothing but an idealist. The facts are there and the reality is not as what you think it is. Perhaps you should be the one who is guilty of the things you accused me of.
///And if that means that we have to destroy certain cities, risk certain casualties, bring more troops to Iraq, then so be it.///
Look again, we ARE doing that already. That is what we are doing this very minute, this very second in Falluja or Baghdad or wherever…. do you think even for a second that coalition troops are lenient towards the “enemy” just to save some innocent Iraqi family from harm? Iraq itself is in chaos and if you hadn’t heard the news by now, it’s a hell hole over there. People rather die than live. It’s that desperate. It’s that miserable. And you even dared to suggest that the Iraqis are happy about their present situation. Sure, Saddam’s gone but don’t you realize that they want coalition troops, American troops gone too, just as bad as they want Saddam’s regime out of their lives. You might say Iraqis are ungrateful bastards who take advantage of the situation, we got rid of Saddam for them but we get little in return….. still that is the ‘reality’ of it. We spend billions and billions and our boy’s lives to acheive some goal but don’t think for a second that it will be appreciated with open arms. It’s not black and white.
But then so what? Do we really need their appreciation for our efforts? What is our agenda over there really? To get rid of Saddam for them? To make a regime change and that’s it? To combat terrorism and that’s it? And if that’s the case then we don’t need to change anything (from our present situation) do we? Because if that was the case then we don’t need to force change in people’s hearts and minds, that change will come eventually when it is done right and when “freedom” and “democracy” finally reigns in Iraq one day. Then I ask you, Jake, can you honestly tell me that is what we are really doing over there? That oil and greed and other more sinister agenda has nothing to do with our presence in today’s Iraq?
Tell me I’m wrong…. correction, prove to me I’m wrong…. so that I can get a little more faith back from what little I have left for the America of today.
btw if we are having this conversation, I would think you at least have the common courtesy of reading EVERYTHING (or at least most of it) that the other has written. But I guess you didn’t and you will not.
Then I must warn you because our ‘dabate’, if you can even call it that, is pointless and frankly stupid.
So I hope you will do both of us a favor and catch up on our conversation so we wouldn’t look ‘stupid’.
Good day Jake
btw I just noticed this beauty from you,
///Notice how in Afghanistan there is barely any resistance to our troops. Even the military tribes of the mountains – who are out of reach of the control of the new government there – dont mind the changes in the nation as long as they are left alone. The taliban is gone and the country is becoming stable.///
What kind of news have they been feeding you? What planet did you just come back from?
Stable? Afghanistan stable? Haha you’re joking right? but since you seem to be so serious in your words, I guess you’re not.
The situation in Afghanistan is just as chaotic as in Iraq, my friend….. open your eyes and pay attention. It’s so desperate over there that it needs the help of Pakistani troops to fight the ‘terrorists’ in Afghanistan. Now why would rich and powerful nations like America and Britain need the help of some banana republic country is my question. If everything had been under control, wouldn’t you think Bush would jump right in and bask in the limelight like some beach buff soaking the sun for a good tan? The word Afghanistan was used like one or two times in his latest public address if you had noticed…. need I say more?
And the lack of the news from the Afghan front doesn’t mean everything is A-ok and ‘under control’…. in fact if you really think about it, it is the opposite. That maybe we are having a little trouble over there ‘fighting’ and ‘defending’.
Boy, I do hope you get it by now. Sometimes you’re too much.
And do you know why there might be barely any resistence to OUR troops? Coz everyone’s in Iraq! But I assure you there are plenty of resistence against the Canadian, British, Italian, French, Austrailian, Pakistani (among many others) troops over at Kabul and other places.
can america go on a three front war|(north korea deinng the 3rd|)?
excuse for the my english. i have find this blog on the web road….
in the picture i’d added Iraquien’s soldier and civilian + SPanish + Italian + English +Ukraine + more..
all people that dead in Iraq, are dead in the name of Bush.
bye
Jake your #300,
///How can anyone with common sense honestly not see the threat Saddam Hussein posed to the United States? Rather than build up a nation with a good economic base from oil, he poured all of Iraq’s funds into developing weapons and, yes, supporting terrorist groups. A man with so much political power – who stood unchallenged because of the sheer fear he inspired into his own people – with access to funds and military equipment is the worst threat to the United States. This person built a career on being a threat from attacking Kuwait to refusing to comply with UN inspectors. The US army should have taken control of Iraq back during the Gulf War. It is a mystery to me why our nation always lets its opponents off so easily. And i will tell you why – because of the international community that you people all value. “America cannot act because the European Union does not support our actions.” ///
Then why did “Daddy” failed in that attempt in the first place? Because of the EU? Come on, are you insane or something?
The first Gulf War back in the early 90s failed to get Saddam because us Americans, under Senior Bush’s direction, refused to step foot on Iraqi soil after the Kuwait liberation. Learn your history my friend. I’m not going to tell you everthing here since you wouldn’t listen to me anyway and I don’t want to waste the time and energy lecturing you on modern political realities, which you can easily learn yourself in any local library.
And you ask why he was “unchallenged”, ask yourself, really you should…. you’re an American citizen right? The Iraqi people are asking you, the great American ‘liberator’, the ones who have the resources and power to ‘challenge’ the regime, why you failed them in 1991? Why you, with the big ideas of getting rid of Saddam, failed the Iraqi people when they were ready to fight for their own freedom, risking their very own lives but in the end were left hanging for certain death when not a single American soldier would intervene in their “cause”? Huh why?
///It is a mystery to me why our nation always lets its opponents off so easily. ///
No not the EU unfortunately Jake.
It’s 100% unequivocally “Daddy’s” fault.
The last comment about all of the dead being included in the Bush picture makes a lot of sense. It also backs up Joseph’s point about war and its atrocities. I don’t feel the need to prove any points as the picture above proves it them all. Anyone who argues with that. Well, it’s just unfortunate. Perhaps someday we will all wake up and realize that the hole only gets bigger when it comes to war and that we’d be much better off if we filled it up with compassion and support for ALL people so that leaders like Osama, Saddam and Bush would never come to be.
I am a future member of the US military and believe that freedom is steeped in the blood of those who perished. I ask PhotoMatt and every other person against the war, you have the stones to ridicule our government but do you have the stones to stand up and defend our country for the right to speak against the government that gives you that freedom.
Ryan.
Yes, I do have the “stones”. But we are not fighting for our freedoms in Iraq. That is the sad point.
///I am a future member of the US military and believe that freedom is steeped in the blood of those who perished. I ask PhotoMatt and every other person against the war, you have the stones to ridicule our government but do you have the stones to stand up and defend our country for the right to speak against the government that gives you that freedom. ///
Ryan, we were attacked on September 11, 2001. I wholeheartedly agree in capturing and killing ALL who are responsible for that attack.
We were attacked in Yemen left a huge hole on the USS Cole and cost the lives of some of our boys and girls in the service. I wholeheartedly agree in capturing and killing ALL who are responsible for the that attack.
Oklahoma City was never the same after 9am April 19, 1995. Over 150 people were killed in that incident. I wholeheartedly agree in capturing and killing ALL who are responsible for that attack.
Now for Iraq. I do not have a problem with the concept of liberating Kuwait. I do not have a problem with the concept of ousting Saddam from power in Iraq.
Yet the reality and history dictates that we succeeded in the liberation of Kuwait but failed in ousting Saddam from power (at least from the 90-91 campaign). The cost of that failure is the mistrust and “hatred” towards the west but Americans in particular from the Iraqi masses. Now fast forward a decade or so later, all of a sudden the son of Saddam’s arch enemy declares a messed up, unorganized, unsupported, quick-to-act, unclear-objective war on Iraq. They say we’re fighting terrorism- but evidence tells us there are more Saddam loyalists than any Al Queda or Al Queda-like operatives in Iraq. They say Iraq has WMDs- and obviously evidence tells us otherwise and now they even changed their wording, basically they have no choice but to eat their own words. And many other failures and blunders that I don’t want to waste my time on.
Now how could I wholeheartedly agree on that?
And most importantly, now that you have a better understanding of where I stand, how can you question my loyalty towards this great country of ours? The “stones” are always there, you just need to realize them.
I HAVE JUST RECEIVED THE RESUME OF GEORGE W. BUSH FOR CONSIDERATION. I have verified that all his statements are true, and indeed are true facts of record.
After careful consideration, I have determined that Mr. Bush is not qualified for the job in question, and therefore must regrettably reject him as a candidate for the position. However, we will keep his resume on file, and should a similar position arise in the future, we may give his resume and qualifications serious consideration once again.
GEORGE W. BUSH
RESUME
The White House,
Washington DC, USA
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:
I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history.
I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.
I set the all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market, in my first year in office.
I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.
After taking the entire month of August 2001 off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.
I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.
I’ve made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.
I withdrew from the World Court of Law.
I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history.
In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.
I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Convention.
I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.
The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).
I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.
Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The ‘poorest’ multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her).
I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president since the advent of television.
I took the world’s sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
I cut health care benefits for war veterans.
I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in US history.
I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.
I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.
I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
I attacked and took over two countries.
I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the Treasury.
I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.
I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.
I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.
I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1).
I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.
I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.
I am the first US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate neighbor, North Korea.
I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.
I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.
In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil war.
I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.
RECORDS AND REFERENCES:
I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).
I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.
I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my father’s library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.
PERSONAL REFERENCES:
For personal references, please speak to my dad or uncle James Baker (They can be reached in their offices at the Carlyle Group where they are helping to divide up the spoils of the US-Iraq war and plan for the next one.)
Bottom line, this is an extremely moving picture. This president has played on our fears from 9-11 to justify attacking Iraq. For those of you out there who just don’t get it, “AL QUAIDA” attacked us on 9-11. Not Iraq. And if you honestly believe Saddam to be the only dictator on the planet to torture and hurt, even kill his own people, you are insane. What about Castro? Hmmm….
As far as the comparisons to WWII, here’s one for you. What if FDR had attacked Mexico after Pearl Harbor instead of the Japenese. Hmmm…..doesn’t make much sense does it?
///As far as the comparisons to WWII, here’s one for you. What if FDR had attacked Mexico after Pearl Harbor instead of the Japenese. Hmmm…..doesn’t make much sense does it? ///
Oh it makes sense alright…. to Jake and Bush Jr it does :p
sorry couldn’t help myself~
Personally, I think it’s very disrespectful to those who died and to their families to use their pictures as a mosaic of Bush’s face. There are thousands of other images they could they have thought of. How about an American flag instead?
I will carry it with me every day. I will thank each and every soldier with a prayer for them and their families. I can’t see the “big picture” maybe it is the medium used to design it…I never liked blood red!
Why don’t you use your time to send care packages or support the troops that are over there, BEFORE their picture ends up on this list… How ignorant to blame Bush. You people are blaming the WRONG MAN. He sisn’t cause 9/11. He wasn’t in office when WE let the terroists into the country… when WE trained them how to fly… He just got left to clean it up and catch the blame… you wanna help? here’s how to help:
The American Red Cross is launching Treasures for Troops, an exciting year round program that offers a way for Americans to brighten the day for deployed men and women in uniform serving overseas. You can provide troops with a gift from home with a $20 donation to the American Red Cross Treasures for the Troops program. Details at: http://www.trianglearc.org/afes/treasuresfortroops.htm
Operation Hero Miles: In September 2003, the Pentagon started giving soldiers stationed in Iraq two-week leave periods in the largest R & R program since the Vietnam War; the soldiers can fly to Germany or Baltimore Washington International Airport for free, but they are responsible for the cost of flights to their final destination. Returning soldiers often have to purchase high-priced, last-minute airline tickets so they can spend time with their family. You can help American troops travel home to spend quality time with their loved ones. For more information, please see: http://www.heromiles.org/index.html
Contribute to “Gifts from the Homefront” Certificates from the Army Air Force Exchange System (AAFES). These allow you to send a gift certificate to a loved one, family member or friend associated with the military. These certificates are redeemable by authorized patrons of the PX/BX and are redeemable at all locations around the world including deployed areas. For more information, please see: http://www.aafes.com/docs/homefront.htm.
Donate to”Operation USO Care Package” at http://www.usocares.org/home.htm.
The Gift of Groceries program at http://www.commissaries.com/certificheck/index.htm helps meet the family needs of our Guard and Reserve troops fighting the war on terrorism.
Donate a calling card to help keep servicemembers in touch with their families at Operation Uplink at http://www.operationuplink.org/
Send a greeting via e-mail through Operation Dear Abby at http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/ or http://www.OperationDearAbby.net
Sign a virtual thank you card at the Defend America Web site at http://www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html
The “Stars and Stripes” newspaper includes a daily “”Messages of Support” section giving family and friends of deployed service members a chance to pass along greetings, announcements, and words of encouragement. Such messages (LIMITED TO 50 WORDS OR LESS) will be printed on a first-come, first-run basis. Messages may be sent to: messages@stripes.com.
Make a donation to one of the military relief societies:
Army Emergency Relief at http://www.aerhq.org/
Navy/Marine Relief Society at http://www.nmcrs.org/
Air Force Aid Society at http://www.afas.org/
Coast Guard Mutual Assistance at http://www.cgmahq.org/
Special Operations Warrior Foundation at http://www.specialops.org/contribute.html
Support the American Red Cross Armed Forces Emergency Services at http://www.redcross.org/services/afes/
Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors at http://www.taps.org
National Military Family Association at http://www.nmfa.org
Purchase a Patriot Bond at http://www.ustreas.gov
Volunteer at a VA Hospital to honor veterans who bore the lamp of freedom in past conflicts.
Reach out to military families in your community, especially those with a loved one overseas.
The support and generosity of the American people has touched the lives of the more than 300,000 service members deployed overseas.
Check #345 — it’s amazing! Very sad too, like picture.
Um… Has anyone sent this image to congress?
Even as an Aussie, I was deeply moved. So senseless.
#350
///Why don’t you use your time to send care packages or support the troops that are over there, BEFORE their picture ends up on this list… How ignorant to blame Bush. You people are blaming the WRONG MAN. He sisn’t cause 9/11. He wasn’t in office when WE let the terroists into the country… when WE trained them how to fly… He just got left to clean it up and catch the blame… ///
Care to explain further? Because it seems to me you’re ambiguous in your line of thought.
I never said Bush was responsible for 911, if he was my sentiment towards him would’ve been the same as how I feel about Bin Laden– capture and execute. But I’ll give you one thing, WE are to blame for intelligence failure and that goes from the very top, The President (regardless of administration) to the average folk like you and I who didn’t really cared or pay any attention about the ‘state of the world’ we were in (before 911 for instance).
HOWEVER!
We ain’t talkin’ about 911! Dammit! Don’t you get it by now? This is about Iraq and the Iraq war. This is about the war in Iraq that nobody can say what the ‘real’ objectives are. Is this about terrorism? Doesn’t seem like it. Is this about WMDs? Doesn’t seem like it. Is this about regime change? I think it is but certainly the Iraqi masses and what the Bush administration told the world before did not think it was the case– thus, I’m still aren’t sure. Is this about oil and greed? Perhaps, I don’t know– everything’s all covered up. Is this about bringing ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ to Iraq? I think it is but Bush’s reasoning for going to war was clearly not that in the first place– else why bother with WMDs or trying to paint Saddam in the worst light possible when you could’ve just rattled the Iraqi masses for change, ie, it shouldn’t had been about Saddam, should’ve been about the Iraqi people and their future. Yet if you read and watch the news coming from post-war Iraq now, their future is uncertain to say the least. The realisation of ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ is still up in the air– not a certainty.
Therefore, because Bush Jr is the one who authorized the first largest warfare of the new century. It is absolutely appropriate and well-suited to point the finger at our current president and his administration for their OWN doing. Me and you or any peace-niks or those in the military or those hard-liner conservatives are NOT to blame. It is only GW Bush, unfortunately.
I really hope you get it.
And you know what? I’ll take the opportunity to use one of your many links and help out with the troops just like you ask us to do. I do appreciate your energetic efforts to support the heros. My hats off to you.
But please please make sure you at least think about your current position on ‘politics’ for I’m really concern that you, just like many out there, have been brainwashed by garbage that needs to be dumped and emptied long time ago. This coming Nov is the time for garbage day. “Anyone but Bush”.
///Personally, I think it’s very disrespectful to those who died and to their families to use their pictures as a mosaic of Bush’s face. There are thousands of other images they could they have thought of. How about an American flag instead? ///
And turn our backs and forget about WHY those men and women died in the first place? Waving our little flags and stare silently in a blank state then before you know it, everyone forgets about this tragedy and move on with our lives only to wait for history to repeat itself again…. and again…. and again…. in an endless ‘stupid’ cycle.
Do you even know why they died? Do you think they died for us or for Bush’s ego? They certainly didn’t die in vain, don’t you worry but they died for a reason. Can you honestly tell me Bush and his friends in Washington aren’t one of the reasons?
Tell me I’m wrong.
God, how good is this pic! i love it. it’s soooo moving and just amazing all round. Can u tell me where to get a copy that i can copy n paste/ print just the one thing.
i love all ye ppl that made this.
lv busy Lizzie B
Even a Belgian is moved by this picture. I’m very sorry for the persons (and their families) who had to die for the principals of one person who claims to be your representative president. This war should stop. Now that Sadam is gone (i didn’t approve him as a president) you notice that it’s getting much worse in Irak. People are dying every day. This picture quit represents it.
Full strength for the families who have suffered an enormous loss.
If not Bush, then who clintons wife. Who else is worth a damm. He needs to clean up this mess or it will never subside.
What a waste of bandwidth! Why don’t you put it on a coffee, mug for all those who are getting chills looking at,to have a hot drink to warm themselves. up?
Get a life. As a Marine “brat” that watched his father serve in Vietnam, these soldiers know the price when they join up and take the money. They know the consequences and if they don’t like it, they shouldn’t have joined. You liberal baby-killing abortionists should talk about how precious lives are.
MESSAGE FOR JOSEPH & JAKE:
You two guys have been going back and forth for a long time now. Take a look at comment # 345 and comment on that — it might put an end to your endless bickering.
and what did they die for? Oil???? to protect Israel??? and how many Iraqies have u killed till now??!!!! the Iraqis want u out of their land
“THE REAL THREAT”? Philip Zelikow, now the executive director of the September 11 commission, served on the National Security Council, was on the Bush transition team, and was a member of the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board from 2001 to 2003. According to the Inter Press Service, he said during a war-on-terror forum at the University of Virginia Law School on Sept. 10, 2002: “I’ll tell you what the real threat [is] and actually has been since 1990 — it’s the threat against Israel. And this is the threat that dares not speak its name because…the American government doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically because it’s not a popular sell.” http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2004/nf20040415_0640_db009.htm
my name is noy and i live in ISRAEL – stop being so naive ! you should look at the whole thing from the root of the matter. the problem here is not Iraq, Afganistan, Iran, the palastinians or any other “Arab” nation. this is a war of religion. it’s the islam agains free humen rights. how can you be so blind ??? haven’t you suffered enough after 9/11, didn’t you have more then plenty casualties ? (3500 people if i’m not mistaken …). your american soldiers are protecting youe free nation to continue to be free without “devil worshipers” islamic fanatic believers. look at how they act in the name of “their” G-od …… you don’t need to be to smart to understand that one day they will want to see you all islamic. my girlfriend is american and we both (and others to) agree that you should understand that if you will not fight for freedom (just like israel !) of religion, faith, believes, land and the persuit of your god (and not in the form of “islamic” “alla”) then you shell lose it all. islamic arabs are not fools. they are already establishing themselves in every country in the world, building themselves and rising more schools, more musks, more prayer institutions, bringing more native (with citizenship ….) children that will grow and multiply in your and any other country in the world, and one day – in the name of “theire” god and “gihad” (holy war) they will take down america and the rest of the world too – without one single bullet fired !. stop being stupid. it’s the world against islam. the sooner you will understand that, the faster you’l get into action, becouse that situation requires massive – non stop action. i feel sorry for every person that is killed but if the normal people will not stand agains evil then there is no hope for life.
noy.
Hats off to #350! You all waste your time complaining & pointing fingers! Why not do something constructive with your time? Help our men & women overseas and at home! To put Bush’s face over the top of our fallen serviceman is distasteful! Who was the one to make the fallen soldiers choice of their cause of death for them? An Idiot in my oppion!
noy I’ll be brief and right to the point,
Everything you said can be applied to any religion including, you guessed it, the Jewish faith. In fact every major city in North America has a synagogue in town. And need I say more about your children and grandchildren living freely and prosper alongside with everyone else?
And if I do follow your logic, now should I be threatened by your Jewish religion? Just like how you feel threatened by “Islam” in your mind.
And what about Christianty? Aren’t you at least threatened by ‘them’?
Afterall, many bible-freaks believing in the rapture and all that ‘jazz’ in America today do really think that the Jewish religion will end one day (I’m putting it nicely). Evangelical Christians in particular believe that those who aren’t converted to their ‘faith’ will perish, no ifs ands buts about it. And you being a Jew, noy, unless you embrace the second coming of Jesus and convert to Christianty, in their mind (and I’m not saying they’re right or wrong, you can judge for yourself on that one) you and your girlfriend are doom.
I’m not kidding.
Look, I sort of understand your anger in the mistrust and frankly ‘hatred’ towards ‘them’. Afterall me being here, thousands of miles away from the “hotzone” and can only rely on the media of TV and newspaper alike to get a better understanding of the situation over there in the middle east, I’m too sick and tired myself, never having set foot in Israel or Gaza or West Bank, I feel helpless, hopeless and somewhat angry too! Of course I can never testify the same as how you feel in the present situation and what it is “really” like. I may never know how to live in that ‘anguish’.
///this is a war of religion. it’s the islam agains free humen rights. how can you be so blind ???///
Let me ask you this and you don’t have to answer but be honest to yourself. IF religion (ie, Islam) is somehow out of the picture in the present conflict between Palestinians and Israel, can you honestly say the war would end? Afterall you said this is conflict of human rights versus ‘Islam’…. and once Islam is out of the picture, does that mean every Palestinian will drop their arms and embrace Israel as if it is a long lost friend? Are you sure race and ethnicity has nothing to do with this conflict? Can you honestly tell me you and your girlfriend hold as much hatred towards an Indonesian muslim or an African American Nation of Islam as any Arab Palestinian or Iranian muslim?
It’s not black and white and I’m certainly not saying I’m right or wrong. I’m giving you food-for-thought. It’s very complicated and the only way to make sense of it all is through the basic understanding of tolerance and understanding. What’s more important? Your religioius faith? Your country? or Your own lives and your children’s?
Look as long as there are mulitple religious groups in the world, the idea of your “god” versus my “god” will endure. Today might be Jews versus Allah. A hundred years from now might very well be Jews versus the Roman Catholic Church. What then? Are we going to start the conversation all over again?
///understand that one day they will want to see you all islamic///
What about you? Wouldn’t you like it for me to convert myself into a Jew? Wouldn’t you like to convert ALL muslims in the world into the Jewish faith? Imagine how many problems that will solve?
Yet it wouldn’t work would it? I’m not saying it wouldn’t work in practice…. converting all muslims into Judaism is not at all impossible but it will take time and ALOT of “revolutions” before that can be realized. Yet that’s not what I meant asking wouldn’t it work. What I mean is if you feel that your religious faith is ABOVE everyone else’s (including the ones with no faith at all) then you’re gulity of judging people, even before you get to know them or giving yourself and those who are of different faiths from yours limited choice and in fact no choice at all to embrace and tolerate this or that religion. It’s all going to be ALL or nothing ALL the time.
That’s how you portray Islam and even though you haven’t realized it, Judaism as well. In fact many religions in the world today are just like that.
I agree with noy.
Why not also put together a mosaic of GW made out of photos of those people who died on 9/11? Of course, you folks wouldn’t want that now, would you?
Joseph, you’re so full of s*hit. How many Israelis do you recall blowing themselves up lately in the name of their Jewish faith? How many Christians can you think of who have strapped explosive belts on their CHILDREN and sent them off to die in the name of Christianity? Can you name any Hindus or Buddists who advocate killing themselves or others because of their religious beliefs?
You’re such an IDIOT. It is ISLAM that views everyone not of their faith as infidels and if you will not convert then you are worthy of death. The guy from Israel is right. This is a religious war that has been thrust upon the world by Islamic fanatics and if we do not fight (or convert) then eventually we will die.
And for the rest of you whining morons, I really do wish the world was perfect, but it isn’t. This is the reality. So we’d better do something to protect ourselves or the freedom we enjoy won’t be around for our kids and grandkids.
///haven’t you suffered enough after 9/11, didn’t you have more then plenty casualties ? (3500 people if i’m not mistaken …). ///
Noy just to add a little bit here.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. This is has everything to do with the war in Iraq and nothing to do with 911. Are you telling me bringing democracy and freedom to the Iraqi people is fighting terrorism and fighting the “devil” religion? There are still plenty of mullahs, with no love lost on Israel, in Iraq who are making things more difficult for our boys serving over there. How do you think we should deal with “them”? Is genocide your ulitmate answer? Afterall thousands if not millions of “them” cling to these so-called mullahs and unless the ulitmate is implemented, your ///understand that one day they will want to see you all islamic/// will always exist…. no matter how hard you fight, no matter how angry you are, no matter what as long as there are a few folks believing in ‘Islam’, the war continues.
Now I’ve stepped on dangerous grounds here. And I’ll be the first to say “genocide” is a definite NO-NO. Short of killing every muslim in the world, what can we, the human community, do to ‘prevent’, ‘stop’, ‘end’ this war of religious/ idealogical/ cultural/ class rivalry?
PS not 3500 but less than 3000…. not that I’m downplaying the tragedy but just to correct some myths clouding your judgement.
why not make one with saddams face and all the iraqis he killed while they were at it? waste of space and time, just like Fox news is FAIR AND BALANCED.
///Joseph, you’re so full of s*hit. How many Israelis do you recall blowing themselves up lately in the name of their Jewish faith? How many Christians can you think of who have strapped explosive belts on their CHILDREN and sent them off to die in the name of Christianity? Can you name any Hindus or Buddists who advocate killing themselves or others because of their religious beliefs?///
Angel Eyes, respectfully I have to make something clear here. Seems to me you guys are not “getting it”.
Palestinian terrorism (and I don’t hide the fact that suicide attacks and other mean of using violence to further their cause is terror and in fact plain o’ murder post #327) IS repulsive IS vile IS disgusting. In THAT context and that context ONLY, I agree with you 100%.
Yet how many “Palestinian” causes are there in the whole wide world? How many muslim extremists are really strapping bombs to their children and do unthinkable crimes?
///You’re such an IDIOT. It is ISLAM that views everyone not of their faith as infidels and if you will not convert then you are worthy of death. The guy from Israel is right. This is a religious war that has been thrust upon the world by Islamic fanatics and if we do not fight (or convert) then eventually we will die.///
You can call me whatever you wish. It doesn’t matter. But please please understand NOT ALL (and I have to stress that because it seems to me you and others like you can’t seem to grasp the concept that not everyone have the same traits) muslims or Arabs feel the way as how you put it, your, ///It is ISLAM that views everyone not of their faith as infidels and if you will not convert then you are worthy of death. ///
Or else if that is really the case, we aren’t only at war in Iraq…. and that means even in Iraq EVERYBODY, every brown skined Arab Iraqi will fight the coalition troops to death, not just sporadic attacks by a few leftover Saddam loyalists….. AND we would be at war with the Saudis, Jordan, Iran, Kuwait, Indonesia, America’s Nation of Islam and every conceivable muslim nation or group you can think of!
Like I said to Noy before, the sole solution (IF we were to follow every word you say) is to implement the strategy of genocide in order to win this thing.
Look, the reason why I have to rebut what you say is because, and I’ll be blunt, muslims are just not like how you described them. Go up to any muslim person when you have the opportunity and chances are 99.999999 percent of the time they wouldn’t wish a hair’s harm to you.
In fact I’ll give you this example. Are you familiar with the Khadr Abdurahman’s case? If not you should watch the PBS’s frontline special coming soon call ‘Son of Al Queda’. I’m not going to tell you the whole story here but I want you to understand that this Khadr kid is, on the surface, as replusive as they come and the very meaning and description you provided me about what and who a muslim extremist is cannot be more true here, afterall Khadr’s dad is Bin Laden’s closest friend and in fact Khadr himself was trained in the Al Queda camps in Afghanistan, just like the ones the hijackers of 911 trained in.
Now in your mind there shouldn’t be any doubts about his ‘apparent’ loyalty and about how we should deal and ‘treat’ this kid. Probably you’re thinking ‘prosecute’ then ‘execute’.
Yet do you know why the government and the CIA let him off the hook and basically he is now running free in North America? Because even though his biography cannot be more fitted to the description of being a “terrorist”, in fact you cannot be anymore direct than having people calling you “son of Al Queda”, he himself has never been in line with the kind of terrorist ideology and philosophy that Bin Laden and all of his ‘terrorist friends’ so adamantly testifies to. Thus he became an informant and he became an ally to the United States, to me and you instead of otherwise.
Now I ask you, Angel Eyes, are you going to condemn him too? He is still a muslim and still cling to his faith. Are you still going to look at him the same as how you put it, ///This is a religious war that has been thrust upon the world by Islamic fanatics and if we do not fight (or convert) then eventually we will die/// or scrutinize his very existence as nothing but ///blowing themselves up…. in the name of their [religion] /// Well are you?
///I really do wish the world was perfect, but it isn’t. This is the reality. So we’d better do something to protect ourselves or the freedom we enjoy won’t be around for our kids and grandkids.///
We are doing something to combat terrorism. The battle is on the Afghan front, not Iraq. And you know what as long as you allow the current administration to do as they please, this “protection” of freedom and democracy will always go on under “their” direction and control and ONLY their control. Not the American public.
They say. You act. They enjoy. You…. you tell me 🙁
///You two guys have been going back and forth for a long time now. Take a look at comment # 345 and comment on that – it might put an end to your endless bickering. ///
Al, seen it read it. Thanks for reminding me. But what do you want me to do? Stop posting? Is that it? From my point of view at least, I hold no grudge against Jake. I’m more than happy to address his arguments, else I wouldn’t be posting what I’ve posted here; hence I wouldn’t call it bickering.
And I don’t feel the exchange between Jake and I is “that” heated. I assure you I’ve been in worse. I don’t feel it is “long” either… from the very first post I wrote to the lastest one to Jake, it was a mere 4-5 days. Frankly I think it’s over anyhow. Even if you want to see it, the show’s over already. Unless, of course, he wants to bring it up again.
#357
///If not Bush, then who clintons wife. Who else is worth a damm. He needs to clean up this mess or it will never subside. ///
It’s your choice. Nobody can make that choice for you. But do you honestly think he will do the cleanin’ and scrubin’ once you’ve given him the opportunity? Sometimes the act of cleaning makes the mess worse…. wrong mix of cleaning agents….. leaving stains behind where it should’ve been cleaned…. making a bigger mess in the act of cleanup than before.
Of course I could be wrong. That’s why I merely provide the questions but not the answers.
You lot keep talking about “what is a threat to the USA”. Umm, excuse me, remember the rest of us idiots who are in there with you fighting, there are many other countries so this is just a quick reminder folks.
[b]It is ISLAM that views everyone not of their faith as infidels and if you will not convert then you are worthy of death.[/b]
Second Commandment: Protestant version:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
To all intelligent people supporting the war, im back…Noy, good job. Dont listen to Joseph. Im starting to think that hes from Iraq himself.
Joseph, my friend, i have to say that i am appalled. Not by your arguments, because you can think what you want, but by the way you talk. You can try being respectful for a change. Where do you see me saying things like:
“/Let me ask you this and you don’t have to answer but be honest to yourself/”
“/Boy, I do hope you get it by now. Sometimes you’re too much./”
And all your annoying “this isnt black and white” comments which you have used time and time again in each one of your articles. And your “can you honestly tell me.” Your ignorant shit (for lack of a better word) irritates the hell out of me. If i didnt “honestly” think so, i wouldnt be telling you! How about you just stick to the arguments.
“/And I don’t feel the exchange between Jake and I is “that” heated. I assure you I’ve been in worse. I don’t feel it is “long” either… from the very first post I wrote to the lastest one to Jake, it was a mere 4-5 days. Frankly I think it’s over anyhow. Even if you want to see it, the show’s over already. Unless, of course, he wants to bring it up again/”
Correction…its far from over, especially now. I wont be the one to back out. Ill counter you on every one of your stupid arguments and verbal tricks, starting from your first response to my last post.
“/Jake I’ll just forget about your opinion on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, since it seems to me your bias has consumed you to the point of senselessness…. so I’ll just talk about your comment on the Iraq war.?
HAHAH. Nice one joseph. I used clear examples to support my stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is a bias, but there are facts. I guess you couldnt come up with anything. But nice trick with the “I wont bother attitude.”
About your take on war (from that same post) you are an idiot, saying all your typical idealist “war is war” “we arent sparing anyone” comments. I dont want to sound like a hypocrite, but ill take a page from your book. Can YOU honestly tell ME that the united states forces in Iraq are waging a no-holds-barred campaign, that they are taking no chances to protect civilians…please. In the first place, do you know what the united states is at full strength? If our troops wanted to, they could destroy the entire country (without even nuclear weapons) in a few days. They could level a city within a hour. And you’re gonna tell me that we are doing that right now? Let me give you a clear example. Do you know what the city of Najaf is? Its one of Iraq’s holiest cities. Well in Najaf, a head of a fiercely anti-american radical militia group (his name is Muqtada al-Sadr) is taking refuge because the United States forces are determined to capture him dead or alive for his involvement in so many US deaths. Can you picture this. He is taking refuge in a mosque. Everyone knows where he is. Outside the city is a force of 25,000 US troops. And they are trying not to enter because they dont want to “damage the city’s mosques.” So is that America at its full power? Does that look like World War II where cities such as Dresden and Berlin were bombed mercillesly night and day until they were levelled to the ground (im not against that of course). Im just trying to show the fallacy of your completely stupid logic. Now, because we are holding out – because we dont just invade the city, bomb the damn mosques, and capture this criminal – we are staying in one position outside the city, allowing rebels to make plans, fortify the city in case of an attack (because they have plenty fo time now) and then ambush our troops later. You see? We are exercising a lot of restraint in Iraq to avoid damage to the nation, and this is in fact what is contributing to so many military deaths. can YOU understand that? Dont even try to compare the scale of destruction in Iraq to that fo World War II.
And now…you mustve brought up one of the dumbest things ive heard so far.
“/You might say Iraqis are ungrateful bastards who take advantage of the situation, we got rid of Saddam for them but we get little in return….. still that is the ‘reality’ of it. We spend billions and billions and our boy’s lives to acheive some goal but don’t think for a second that it will be appreciated with open arms. It’s not black and white./”
Of course youre Joseph so you gotta close with that dramatic “its not black and white.” Yes, that is the unfortunate situation in Iraq. But you seem to take it as if the Iraqis are justified in not liking us? Our troops went into Iraq, liberated this entire nation from an oppressive tryant. The pople claimed to hate this person (i saw them crying on CNN when troops were unearthing mass burials of people killed by Hussein) And then they come out and start fighting their own liberators. We have established an Iraqi council. We have stated our desire to be out by June. We are planning to give over power of their country to them. They have gotten a free damn ride at the cost of our troops, and then you act as if they’re supposed to not like us? “What did i expect?” I expectred them to welcome us with open arms. They cheered when we toppled that statue of Saddam. Forgive me friend. Myabe you can explain to me why all of a sudden they are against us? And then you say weve accomplished our goal – weve gotten rid of saddam. Why dont we just leave? If the iraqis dont like us, lets just leave right? We cant just leave an unstable, war-torn nation. We have a responsibility as protectors of democracy to stay there until the Iraqis can get their nation off the ground. If we leave right now ,those same fundamentalists who we are fighting in Fallujah and Najaf right now will reclaim the country and establish another Saddam-type regime. We first have to eliminate all of those radicals because the Iraqis sure as hell are too scared to fight for themselves. They need us. And furthermore, we came to Iraq to end terrorism, but now that they are there we want to establish democracy – and that means democracy by our standards – separation of church and state, encfranchisement for all citizens, and womens rights. Now, the Iraqis want to establish a constituion founded on the Quran – which means no separation of church and state and no women’s rights. Now, you seem to respect all religions and cultures. You probably feel that, if its their belief, who are we to interfere right? Tell me you dont feel that way. They dont have to think our way, but they must have freedom – freedom for all – freedom of religion. Thus, i have a problem with the constituion right now, and we cant leave until there is freedom there. Only then can the country build up and prosper. And if you truly belief that we have no right to interfere with their “religious beliefs” consider this: the Aztecs of Mexico believed in human sacrifice…should they have been left alone too?
And finally:
“/Then why did “Daddy” failed in that attempt in the first place? Because of the EU? Come on, are you insane or something?
The first Gulf War back in the early 90s failed to get Saddam because us Americans, under Senior Bush’s direction, refused to step foot on Iraqi soil after the Kuwait liberation. Learn your history my friend. I’m not going to tell you everthing here since you wouldn’t listen to me anyway and I don’t want to waste the time and energy lecturing you on modern political realities, which you can easily learn yourself in any local library./”
We refused to set foot on Iraqi soil? What the hell are you smoking? Within 100 hours, we had moved 200 miles north into Iraq from Saudi Arabia and 70 miles east, we practically enveloped all of Iraq’s territory near Kuwait and Saudi Srabia. Our forces bombed Baghdad. They completely destroyed Saddam’s royal guard. His best forces were in shambles. His troops were surrendering to us in mass numbers. And youre telling me that we never went in or that we could not take over Baghdad? The fact is that we had a chance back in 1991. We could have easily taken over the nation. But we let them escape with a cease fire and some UN sanctions. You criticize America’s hasty entrance into the war. I crticize actions like THAT – letting iraq off the hook, not taking advantage of the opportunity that presented itself. Whatever happened to taking over when winning a war?? My only problem is that we did not take over Iraq back then…if we had, we wouldnt be talking about this right now…
I agree with whoever said youre full of shit Joseph. You can come at me with whatever you have. I frankly dont care if noone on this board supports the war. Ill be the rallying point for American patriots and people with common sense and intelligence. Why dont you go move to Iraq and help your friends (and i dont mean our troops)
What the hell are you talking about. Forget it, I’m not going “play” with you anymore, this is the kind of stuff I want to avoid in the first place. If you remembered #240 (the very first post I addressed to you), I clearly stated, ///First off I don’t expect you to listen to me as you have clearly indicated in your post. /// Try to obey your own words.
So I’m just going to point out things from now on that I think should be worth mentioning, any other stuff that is irreverent or just plain “stupid”, I’ll leave out. You can think whatever the hell you want, You can think I’m chicken shit for all I care.
///YOU honestly tell ME that the united states forces in Iraq are waging a no-holds-barred campaign, that they are taking no chances to protect civilians…please.///
Tell that to the victims of those Iraqi family members whose loved ones were massacred at check-points by overzealous coalition troops. Watch 60 minutes sometime. Did you see the bodies of an entire family, father to mother to their infant daughters, riddled with bullet wounds dead in their modest 80s-model car because coalition troops “thought” they were the enemy.
It’s a joke that you come up with the Al-Sadr example as your reasoning and prove for “restraint” (as if that proves compassion from the US side) Are you dumb (and I’m getting pretty tired telling you that btw)? The only reason why they’re backing off in Najaf is for “strategic” reasons, as in trying to win the battle using a plan of strategy. The reason they’re holding off any offensive attack in this case (and I want to stress this case only) is because they DO NOT want to antagonize the Shiite-dominated community/ population situated in Najaf, which Sadr is the leader and prominent figure-head. You’re right they have a high concentration of holly mosques and sites over there and they don’t want to make an already volatile, explosive and difficult situation worse. You see the problem is Al-Sadr is the mastermind and organizer of many of the attacks on coalition troops. He is the problem. Don’t think for a second that senior officials in Washington and those who are in charge of the campaign don’t want this guy dead, as a matter of fact, the sooner the better. But the reality of the situation is we can’t act hastily and certainly we can’t act (ie go into Najaf and blow everything up) without weighing the consequences of more attacks and more resistance.
Do you want to see more portraits of dead American soldiers on that mosaic at top of this page? I don’t think so either. When you’re going into a war, it’s either you or the enemy dead or injured….. civilians compromise the objective. They make things a bit more difficult. Unless technology is advanced enough to allow no human presence on the battlefield then and only then you can say we have the luxury of “restraint” on our side.
Btw tell me the casualty toll on the Iraqi side so far into the war (civilians and fighters included) since March. Now tell me the casualty toll from our side.
Need I say more about “restraint”? And please don’t compare the record of this war to past wars…. at least compare to more recent ones like Gulf or Vietnam. There is just NO comparison between WW1 or WW2 with the current war in Iraq. There is just too big of a discrepancy of time and technology and everything in between!
And if you like to declare yourself the winner of this “debate”, then by all means do it. Hell! You want me to call myself a loser, I’m a loser 🙂 Happy now?
But please read what I’ve written at least, that’s what most important to me and that’s what this should be about.
///I used clear examples to support my stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is a bias, but there are facts. I guess you couldnt come up with anything. But nice trick with the “I wont bother attitude.”///
Read #327 again please and pay particularly close attention to MY explanation on the Israel issue.
Read!
Yeah you sure indicated you didnt want me to listen to you. But you’re ridiculous posts made that hard to do. I think you’re a complete idiot. I know that when you point out facts, you’re supposed to try to be impartial, but you do it to a degree that is outright scary. Reading your posts, one would think that the Iraqis are not only innocent, but victims. You portray your own country in a negative light when America is the greatest country in the world. And at times like this – when the rest of the world hates us so that it can suck up to the Arabs and their oil supply – one would think that at least AMERICANS can support AMERICA. Good job doing that. And the funniest thing is that you can criticize this because you know that, no matter what you say, we will continue to be at war becuase we cant back out now. Thats a relief, isnt it? You can criticize it from thousands of miles away. Go point to that mosaic of our troops. Go act like they died for nothing and use them as part of your anti-war argument. But those troops knew what they were fighting for. They were fighting for freedom and for their country. I dont think they would have wanted to be used as part of a plot to end what they were willing to die for. You can go ahead and let them die in vain. Because if we pull out now – just like we did 13 years ago – in another 13 years we will have to go back in and the problem will start all over again.
Im not even going to respond to what you say because your latest arguments dont harm my case at all. I dont care about winning this debate. It wasnt respectable enough to be happy with victory. It was pathetic listening to your stupid remarks and the way you try to impose your argument upon your opponents (see previous article for details). And you dont have to “play” with me anymore. I was never playing. i can “honestly tell you that.” You called it quits buddy.
///They have gotten a free damn ride at the cost of our troops, and then you act as if they’re supposed to not like us? “What did i expect?” I expectred them to welcome us with open arms. They cheered when we toppled that statue of Saddam. Forgive me friend. Myabe you can explain to me why all of a sudden they are against us?///
I don’t act. This has nothing to do with me. I’m not the one in Iraq, fighting in defence or offence…. you can say then just “shut the hell up” and that’s all valid but because this great country of ours allows freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I’m just exercising my rights. I hope we’re clear on that one.
I’m giving you common sense and most importantly I’m telling you the truth about the situation. There is no playing of words or hiding facts to suit my argument etc etc. Politicans like Bush and Kerry do that, not me…. not here.
The fact of the matter is many Iraqi do appreciate our help in the toppling of Saddam and his regime but do not appreciate our presence being there now. In fact if things get any worse, they want to topple us just as much as they wanted Saddam gone.
I’ve explained to you why they are all “suddenly” against us. And I use the term “suddenly” very losely.
Re-read the posts I’ve already written to you and others in detail.
Pay close attention to #335, 340, 353
///And if you truly belief that we have no right to interfere with their “religious beliefs” consider this: the Aztecs of Mexico believed in human sacrifice…should they have been left alone too? ///
Ask any person with Aztec heritage in his/her blood about being colonized and basically wiped out from history by European settlers. Ask if he/she is happy about that.
It’ll be the first time in my life to hear someone say thank you to Spanish Conquistadors and what their legacy in latin America.
I never said anything about “religious” freedom or any issue like that in all my previous posts on this website. In fact I’ve criticised (dissed) just about every major religion, including Islam, Judasim and Christianty in my previous posts.
Why you’re putting out these ridiculous outrageous comments is beyond me.
///Of course youre Joseph so you gotta close with that dramatic “its not black and white.”///
If I say something different, you wouldn’t get it. The black and white phrase is layman’s term so that you would understand my point of view without having to be confused or think about my sometimes long (but never boring) ideas.
I’m not here to impress you as much as I want to educate you. Alright?
///We refused to set foot on Iraqi soil? What the hell are you smoking? Within 100 hours, we had moved 200 miles north into Iraq from Saudi Arabia and 70 miles east, we practically enveloped all of Iraq’s territory near Kuwait and Saudi Srabia. Our forces bombed Baghdad.///
You know what? You’re absolutely right. You scored a winner on me for technicality. You’re right we did stepped foot in Iraq. So this phrase from moi,
///because us Americans, under Senior Bush’s direction, refused to step foot on Iraqi soil after the Kuwait liberation.///
is technically wrong.
But if you have any intelligence you know too that I’m talking about “stepping foot” metaphorically. That is we never did toppled Saddam back in 1991 when we had the chance. Not whether or not our soldiers did cross the border line in the literal sense.
Look, whose fault was it really for not taken that “opportunity” when it had presented itself?
The International community? The Eu? Really?
You sure it ain’t Daddy’s fault?
Why have the soldiers? Why not the civilians and Iraqi soldiers murdered by the Mad Cowboy and his armies?
Heres to the Coalition of the Willing being thrown out of Iraq!
About your Spanish conquistadors…i applaud them for wiping out a culture based on violence and sacrifice. I dont care about their descendents or how they feel. Their culture was wrong. Unlike you, i dont see myself below being able to judge whether a culture is “good” or bad.” You just seem to support everyone. And you avoided my question….how do you feel about the Aztecs?
And about the Gulf War, no, i dont think its Bush Senior’s fault. It is the EU. Back then we were still listening to Europe. Thats why we never got shit done. You will forgive me if i dont refer to him as “Daddy.”
/// I know that when you point out facts, you’re supposed to try to be impartial, but you do it to a degree that is outright scary. ///
What are you talking about? Giving you facts automatically means I have to be impartial on issues? I can’t give my 2 cents on the issues? Is that it? …..that doesn’t even make any sense!
I point out facts to SUPPORT my argument/ opinion. I never force you or anyone else here to conform to my ideas or anything.
Do you know why you think it is scary Jake? It’s because I’m dissing everything you think of as being the “perfect” “best” “utopian-like” setting that you and many of us have been accustomed to, we call America.
America is a great country but it is far from perfect and the action or the route we’re taking with the direction from the current administration is getting bleak and very much problematic. I’m only a ringer of the alarm bell. You choose to pay attention to that sound is up to you. I cannot force you to listen nor would I want to.
Aztecs? I love them. I think, if we can let bygones be bygones and move forward to modernity– of course this is all done in consent with the decendents of the Aztecs people and I’m clearly not one of them, it would be wonderful to take advantage of an opportunity not only educating the rest of the world about their rich ancient culture but to earn a little something on the side with tourist dollars and whatnot.
Mexico is still very much a third world reality and I think any bit of economic opportunity helps and probably helps with the immigration problems our southern borders face everyday.
Right on Joseph.
///YOU honestly tell ME that the united states forces in Iraq are waging a no-holds-barred campaign, that they are taking no chances to protect civilians…please.///
You know what, you’re right **chuckles**…. they’re not taking any chances to protect them, they have their own to think about. With battle this intense and ferocious, how could anyone care about saving a little boy or girl from harm’s way. No way! Getting those terrorists and resistance fighters are our top priority!
///They have gotten a free damn ride at the cost of our troops, and then you act as if they’re supposed to not like us? “What did i expect?” I expectred them to welcome us with open arms. They cheered when we toppled that statue of Saddam. Forgive me friend. Myabe you can explain to me why all of a sudden they are against us?///
I don’t act. This has nothing to do with me. I’m not the one in Iraq, fighting in defence or offence…. you can say then just “shut the hell up” and that’s all valid but because this great country of ours allows freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I’m just exercising my rights. I hope we’re clear on that one. (response from Joseph)
I’ll just say that in all of this you are right JOSEPH when you said — “I don’t act. This has nothing to do with me. I’m not the one in Iraq, fighting in defence or offence” ……your just using this form to try & show your intelligence, which is none! Get the Facts or Shut your Mouth! It’s people like you who hurt our military men & women when they come home!!!!!! Back off & learn your history!! This site i’m guessing was developed to support our fallin troops, has now become your own political form. You should be as ashamed of yourself as the person who delevoped the picture. Many of our troop back Pres. Bush’s decision. As should you, it’s about your freedom, your loved ones freedom, & people you don’t even know. Get a clue before you spout off your mouth!!!!………Jake thank you for backing up all the right information, so stupids out there like “Joseph” don’t influence people!!!!!!
Macedonians hope for peace for peoples of Middle East. May God harshly punish the warmongers like
Bush, Cheyney and New World Order partners such as Blair.
Jebem ti Amerikansko terrorizmo. Zatvor i smrt za fassititi vo Iraqk.
Kimmie your #390.
So if I assume your words are as good as gold and unequivocally 100% right on every time you open your mouth. Then I should follow your logic. And your logic says anyone who even questions Bush and his view points and his actions is not only wrong but is guilty of heresy, unpatriotic, vile and just plain o’ immoral. Right?
Is that it? I hope I haven’t left anything out from your puny thoughts you call a mind.
God bless America. Correction. God bless Bush’s America. Indeed. (and don’t think I’m being cynical here, the sad thing is that this is really the truth)
/// You should be as ashamed of yourself as the person who delevoped the picture. Many of our troop back Pres. Bush’s decision. As should you, it’s about your freedom, your loved ones freedom, & people you don’t even know. Get a clue before you spout off your mouth!!!!………Jake thank you for backing up all the right information, so stupids out there like “Joseph” don’t influence people!!!!!! ///
Like I said numerous times before, please prove to me I’m wrong! Prove to me I’m worthy of being ashamed! I want to be ashamed of myself! But right now I can’t! How could I when none of you who are attacking me (for no good reason btw) can come up with something for me to be challenging, let alone to allow myself to be ashamed.
You say it’s about my freedom and my loved ones freedom and things like that….. explain to me how do you go from that to telling me to get a clue and calling me stupid? And why would backing President Bush automatically means my freedom? Please expand further or at least explain that part to me. In that sense, I guess you’re right, I have no clue. Enlighten me please. Or you’re just going to tell me to fuck off 🙂
…..sigh ……so predictable
/// You should be as ashamed of yourself as the person who delevoped the picture. Many of our troop back Pres. Bush’s decision. As should you, it’s about your freedom, your loved ones freedom, & people you don’t even know. Get a clue before you spout off your mouth!!!!………Jake thank you for backing up all the right information, so stupids out there like “Joseph” don’t influence people!!!!!! ///
Like I said numerous times before, please prove to me I’m wrong! Prove to me I’m worthy of being ashamed! I want to be ashamed of myself! But right now I can’t! How could I when none of you who are attacking me (for no good reason btw) can come up with something for me to be challenging, let alone to allow myself to be ashamed.
You say it’s about my freedom and my loved ones freedom and things like that….. explain to me how do you go from that to telling me to get a clue and calling me stupid? And why would backing President Bush automatically means my freedom? Please expand further or at least explain that part to me. In that sense, I guess you’re right, I have no clue. Enlighten me please. Or you’re just going to tell me to fuck off 🙂
…..sigh ……so predictable
///so stupids out there like “Joseph” don’t influence people!!!!!! ///
If you think I’m an idiot, dumb, stupid, unintelligent then what are you afraid of? Why do you care so much to what I say? Who did I influence to make you say that? Perhaps…… maybe…… you? I don’t know you’ll going to have to ask yourself and come with an honest answer on that one 😉
God bless America. Correction. God bless Bush’s America. Indeed. (and don’t think I’m being cynical here, the sad thing is that this is really the truth) ~ Quoted from Joseph
From your mouth Joesph……It’s not Bush’s America……so it seem that you admit your truth….(I believe that if your self doesn’t feel something is not right within yourself, you should question it)…so you actually support what is going on in Iraq, to support the freedom of all people…..so why not just stop all this stuff, that is rambling, it is not history or facts….& just give up your true feelings, you support the fact of our military taking & imprisioning Haussain is an effert in stopping terrisiom…..Terrisiom affects us all, no matter what your beliefs, where your are from or where you are centrally located……the fact remains the same terriorist’s attack the “inocents” to prove they’re the “tough guys” ……we are in Iraq to end their capitalatization & to give them the freedom of speech & religion…..It’s a tough job, it’s gonna take a bit to get calm & quite there & people who send out negative responses don’t help our military who are there, they are the one defending “freedom”, regardless of who you are or where you live, let’s help them & not try to predict what “their” policatical stance is…
#395…sorry…forgot to sign it from me…..
I’m having fun so here’s more,
Let’s play “Prove it”, shall we?
///just using this form to try & show your intelligence, which is none!///
Can you tell me how do I use this to try and show my intelligence? Examples? Evidence? And how do you come up with my intelligence being zero– you know I can read and write….. so that at least count for something right? or no?
///Get the Facts or Shut your Mouth!///
Get “WHAT” facts? I’ve explained already why I wouldn’t ‘shut my mouth’ (read #380).
///It’s people like you who hurt our military men & women when they come home!!!!!!///
I never verbally abuse anyone or use phyical harm towards anyone coming home from their tour of duty. Some of my friend’s friends are in the military and I smile at them and they smile back every time we meet. Does that mean I’m hurting them? Is there something I am missed here?
///Back off & learn your history!!///
There I just backed off (you didn’t see it? too bad) …..yes I’m trying to find time to catch up on ancient Hellenic period, particularly I’m interested in Grecian art. The “Agamemnon” Mask, Venus de Milo and Man with Helmet are some of my favorite works from the ancient world…. how about you, what’s your interest in history?
///This site i’m guessing was developed to support our fallin troops, has now become your own political form. ///
I fully support those who are serving in military and those who are in war zones all around the world (not just Iraq) right now “fighting for our freedom”. My sympathies and prayers towards those who have fallen and towards their families who are no doubt having a hard time to cope with their losses.
As for being “political”, I never said anything that is “political”, I merely tell you the truth, as hard and unpopular it may be. And I use truth to support my own opinion. You and anyone else here reading this can choose to accept it or not. I don’t have anything to do with that choice.
So how has this become my own political forum and why you say that is beyond me. Only you can tell me. And of course I’m always here to listen.
///You should be as ashamed of yourself as the person who delevoped the picture. ///
Haha….. that’s all I want to say, that’s all I can say actually.
///so why not just stop all this stuff, that is rambling, it is not history or facts….& just give up your true feelings, you support the fact of our military taking & imprisioning Haussain is an effert in stopping terrisiom….///
Stop ‘WHAT’ stuff? I told you they are my own opinion and they are based on facts. <--- You are the one who should just accept that And I'll say it again, it's your choice to choose to agree or disagree with MY opinion on things. I agree in the capture of Saddam. But I don't agree in kids and families of Iraqi citizens being killed by coalition bullets and bombs. I don't believe we are stamping out terrorism in Iraq or do us any more favors over there, it would be much better if we would just direct our resources towards the "real" problem of terrorism, Afghanistan and many other places around the world (Britain for example with their vulnerability) then I would sleep better at night. Now tell me how is that "rambling" or not history or fact is beyond me. Again please explain to me further.
///so why not just stop all this stuff, that is rambling, it is not history or facts….& just give up your true feelings, you support the fact of our military taking & imprisioning Haussain is an effert in stopping terrisiom….///
Stop ‘WHAT’ stuff? I told you they are my own opinion and they are based on facts (you are the one who should just accept that )
And I’ll say it again, it’s your choice to choose to agree or disagree with MY opinion on things.
I agree in the capture of Saddam. But I don’t agree in kids and families of Iraqi citizens being killed by coalition bullets and bombs. I don’t believe we are stamping out terrorism in Iraq or do us any more favors over there, it would be much better if we would just direct our resources towards the “real” problem of terrorism, Afghanistan and many other places around the world (Britain for example with their vulnerability) then I would sleep better at night.
Now tell me how is that “rambling” or not history or fact is beyond me. Again please explain to me further.
I’m having fun so here’s more,
Let’s play “Prove it”, shall we?
///just using this form to try & show your intelligence, which is none!///
Can you tell me how do I use this to try and show my intelligence? Examples? Evidence? And how do you come up with my intelligence being zero– you know I can read and write….. so that at least count for something right? or no?
no….(I’m having fun so here’s more),…..u spout out whatever u feel is bring contriverse…& i’m sorry it seems to be your problem that it is against our troops….which you already know that u can’t even compreihend….so why try to put your belief’s on those fallin soliders…u have no clue…my husband was in the first Desert Strom…..they (being all the troops there, wanted to accomplish what we have done so far…so DONT even try for one sec put your footsteps in his or they’res…..you have your freedom to speek out…and as so much is rederick…..you need to to there & see what’s happening or recondition your thoughts to help our guys over there…..
In 1990 My husband was over there in Iraq & my friends husbands where there, you have no one close to you who was there or is there, so you spout out your mouth!!! My husband in 1990 -1991 was there in Iraq, my brother-in-law was there before all this on S.I. movements….so you produce something that is either history realative or go home to your comfort zone & leave this to the ones who REALLY CARE!!!! BYE BYE JOSEPH….(get your facts in history straight or SHUT UP!!!!!! & leave the rest to those who REALLY CARE about our military ****A Yelllow Ribbon Hangs from my house 🙂 Semper Fi & to all for the cause of “OUR” Freedom….weather it be USA or Other Countries….We should not be afaird of others & WE SHOULD FEEL SECURE IN OUR COUNTRY….
***sorry that I didn’t Identify myself on comment #400
Dirty War for Dirty Cash of Rich Pockets in head of Devil Force President
sorry…..Jake gives all the facts on #376…Read on & Read People….It’s important….you seem to not have any personal stakes in the military…..it’s unfornutate…..WE ARE PROUD OUR SOLDIERS SERVERING “OUR FREEDOM”……………….you protest…god forbide your not hurting them….I hope that you are wishing them well in their trites…..
Kim your #400
How the **** old are you? You have a husband served in the Gulf? Are you lying to me?
Look the reason I ask is you really doesn’t seem to be an adult. Your words are childish and I don’t mind if you have some spelling errors but you’re typing ‘net’ shorthands annoys the hell out of me….
spout out?
contriverse?
they’res?
rederick?
What are you, 13 years old?
Look, if I seem disrespectful because YOU started it. But at least learn some typing skills before you attack me on the issues.
So what your husband or brother-in-law or whoever serves in the military? My dad’s a viet-veteran….. does that make me special? I don’t think so! What would make it special if YOU yourself are the one serving the country then you can at least get rub that into my face. Until then and until you learn some typing skills and manners (for that matter) don’t talk to me about who I am or what I do or don’t do.
If you’re lonely, get a boyfriend or hang out at clubs or something. Don’t attack me for your misery. I NEVER attacked your husband or anybody who serves in the military. I merely criticize those who are making the “wrong” decisions for our troops…. and if you don’t think they’re wrong then good for you, if you agree good for you as well. I am merely voicing my own opinion. What you think is none of my business. But don’t you dare telling me I can’t even say a word about it….. or else how could I or anyone support to protect a country that doesn’t allow freedom of expression and freedom of thought?
///We should not be afaird of others & WE SHOULD FEEL SECURE IN OUR COUNTRY…. ///
You forget to add, ‘Heil Bush’
Halbaja was the work of persians not the Iraqies it has been a fact that is known to all peoples so I don’t know what the **** that person who wrote reply #16 means . like wake up Mr !!!!! Americans stopped taking Bs news .
we know now facts like never before !!!! like our presedent made us the most hated people on the face of the earth . let us see today the nsab what it says …..which new place we are advised not to go to . I don’t think much of them if any left .
Kim last thing, my beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with fallen soldiers except maybe to prevent ‘future’ fallen soldiers. What you’re telling me and what you’re accusing me of are plain gibberish. The only good reason why I’m still responding to your “shit” is for my own entertainment and perhaps just perhaps you might listen to a different perspective.
Now go on…. “dance” for me…. thaaaaat’s right
Heck, I don’t know what y’all have against the president. I mean, God is telling him to send troops to Iraq- are you really one to question God? We brought freedom there, and every single one of those brown sons-a-bitches are still terrorists. We’re putting in a government of freedom, with a board we picked out, to install democracy and capitalism, which will not only give the people there a non-repressive leader but the ability to support themselves economically without having to conquer other countries, just like what we have.
Yeah, a few of our boys died, but they did it in the fight for freedom. The freedom of Americans to feel safe, and for the freedom of them Iraqis. Hell, 500 people isn’t that many people to die in a war. We have every right to kill all the Iraqis we want if they try to fight us, because it’s for their own good.
MAn are you stupid ….. do you really think you stupid president is driven by god …. geez he doesn’t even listen to his own church …… and by the way it is not because some people doesn’t look like white trash souther trailer park american that they are terrorist ….. you sir should know better … educate yourself and leanr the truth …. i read everyday the scadal that your stupid president creates and i must say i am much more scared of him trowing a few nukes then north korea of iran ….. you are imperialist and as long as your pay less on your gas you would kill everyone of us …… by the way you did not bring order in iraq you brought terror, despotism , tyranny and DEATH DEATH TO YOUR LOVED ONES AND DEATH TO THOUSANDS OF IRAQIS WOMEN CHILDREN AND MEN …. BE PROUD OF YOU STUPID WHERE YOUR COALITION OF THE WILLING IS FALLING APART… WHERE THE WORLD HATES YOU MORE THEN EVER AND WHERE NO ONE TRUST YOU GUYS ….. DOESN’T LOOK LIKE SOMETHING …… NAZI GERMANY…. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS INSTEAD OF PRODUCING A GENOCIDE YOU GUYS CALL THEM CASUALTIES OF WAR …. HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND SUPPORTING ISRAEL ….. SHAME ON YOU ….. I HOPE PEOPLE WILL VOTE KERRY AND CHANGE THIS WORLD FOR THE BEST ….. BECAUSE GOD IS NOT ON YOUR SIDE … HE VOTES FOR PEACE AND NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO CALL ON GOD FOR WAR
Someone here wrote that some pictures, if you do the math, must be used more than once. But I suppose if you had pictures of all the Iraqi citizens (and their children) killed, and figure how many more soldiers will die over there before Bush does something intelligent, you’d have plenty of pictures–maybe even enough to create a mosaic of Cheney and Rumsfeld too.
///maybe even enough to create a mosaic of Cheney and Rumsfeld too. ///
Or the entire portrait of Bush’s cabinet….. naked hehe~~
Kim, Jake and others,
I just noticed a very good very informative post that would put to rest many of your questions and arguments you guys are trying to make against. Read #23
Pay close attention to
///As a former member of the armed forces, as someone who subscribed – and subscribes – to an ideal that includes my death for a cause I deem just and worthy, I don’t think of this mosaic as a “waste”.///
and
///I must, however, as you this one thing – if, as a soldier, I had to chose between someone sending me a care packet and someone lobbying my fellow Americans to show who got us into this mess, hoping the next commander in chief will not deny my request for a kevlar vest and more diplomacy instead of “bring it on“, I would chose the latter.
My morale will improve in either case, yet having a psychologist on staff in my unit, a kevlar vest that could have saved so many lives, and the knowledge that “up there”, someone acts to reduce violence rather than dismissing it as necessary, might do even more the trick.///
Thank you Mr. Luster
Incredible! I am speechless!!
Jake,
/// Go act like they died for nothing and use them as part of your anti-war argument. But those troops knew what they were fighting for. They were fighting for freedom and for their country. I dont think they would have wanted to be used as part of a plot to end what they were willing to die for. You can go ahead and let them die in vain///
Let me jog your memory and check out #354 again.
Pay particularly close attention to this little phrase I WROTE MYSELF,
///They certainly didn’t die in vain, don’t you worry— ///
Now how the F*CK did you come up with me saying I ///act like they died for nothing and use them as part of (my) anti-war argument /// or that I ///go ahead and let them die in vain/// is my question to you!
///Im not even going to respond to what you say because your latest arguments dont harm my case at all. I dont care about winning this debate. It wasnt respectable enough to be happy with victory. It was pathetic listening to your stupid remarks and the way you try to impose your argument upon your opponents (see previous article for details). And you dont have to “play” with me anymore. I was never playing. i can “honestly tell you that.” You called it quits buddy ///
Awww…. so you wants me to be da winna? You know I don’t mind if you admit to defeat and let me shine in the spotlight (despite what I said earlier). Is that what you want? I didn’t call it quits, just frastrated, ie, I was using the “pause” button… but now I feel I can “play” with chew again. **click**
How sad that you are posting this. These men had fought for a noble cause, for something they believed it. And you are using their death to contridict something they died for. How very sad. What a way to honor their death. You shoudl feel ashamed.
this is sick leave these poor people alone they fought for us and died for us and for michael moore to want to post this on his site is sick michael moore you just need to leave the country you will never get the majority to like you
These people’s faces shouldn’t be used for political purpose just because someone hates Bush. It is disrespectful to their memory. These people were proud Americans and they died so we can live our lives without terrorism like they do over in Israel.
i want to see the one of Osama made with all the people that died in the towers. why don’t one of you left wingers make one and post it.
YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THOSE WHO FIGHT OR HAVE FOUGHT FOR YOU. YOU POLITICAL POSITION MAY DOOM YOU TO A LIFE OF HELL, BUT THE REST OF US DON’T NEED TO SEE YOUR TWISTED THOUGTHS.
THIS IS A HEINOUS USE OF TALENT.
This is a HEINOUS waste of talent. I am sickened by this display. This is a disgrace to the memories of our fallen heroes.
Using these fallen heroes for a political statement is disgusting. Whoever did this should be ashamed of themself.
We have an ALL VOLUNTEER force and they knew what the stakes were before enlisting. I am proudly going into
the Army in June and I fully understand what I will be fighting for and the consequences thereof.
Can you say HYPOCRACY??!!! Michael Moore and all of you other people who are in awe of this “mosaic” are the same ones who cried foul when President Bush used the picture of one flag draped coffin of a fire fighter. That is so typical. Just like John Kerry crying and blaming Bush for sending jobs overseas while their family has the majority of their companies overseas. HYPOCRITES, everyone of you.
It is shocking to see parents sending their kids to invade another contry and die. Some seem to be motivated by revange, which is disgusting, others for just believing any propaganda from the current administration and others, motivated by ultra right think tanks, believe that we need free access to oil in order to face China and/or EU in the coming years.
Nonetheless, if the motivation is revange, plain foolishness or greedy, disguised with a grand economical view, our soldiers and Iraq civilians are paying the price of our actions, or should I say inaction. Does anyone really believe that in the XXI century a whole country is going to accept being invaded/”libarated” by another one and things will be get smoothier after a while?
Well, as long as we debate that, people will continue to die and some pundits keep talking about Democrats X Republicans as though the whole world centers around these two American parties.
Some times I wonder how close to the truth Michael Moore is when he states we are stupid!
That is sick. Taking images of people who have died and use them to form something that they have no say in is sick. Who gives you the right to do this? Those people served honorably for their country and deserve some respect after they have given their life. Why do you stoop too such disgusting levels to gain attention for your opinion? It really discredits you. You should also be seeing yourself in that picture. You posses the same qualities to manipulate others for your gain. You are sick.
I look at it this way since were in war, i would rather it be anyone but us. Thats how they looked at it when all of the bombings took place (cole, us barrects, towers,twice and others). You guys have been jarring for the last couple of days it was fun (for a while). Just had to put my two cents in. Its all starts sounding the same after a while. How bout something new, know one is going to back off, unless your head explodes Ha. Agree to disagree. Yess YEss i know you have a point but your not going to change the way people think. You both have very good shit to say. It’s been fun to read both of your post.
I think this picture is the worst thing I have ever seen. My husband just got back from being over in Iraq for 14 months. If he would have lost his life over there and someone used his picture to make such a stupid statement, I would be outraged! I am just sickened! These people lost their lives for this country and for your freedom to post such crap. Why do we have to politicize everything? What is this world coming to??
This is a wonderful concept, and it’s moving to see the faces of our beloved troops. Sadly, the images creator chose to make it political instead of making a tribute to those who have given their lives. How much more moving would it have been to use these same pictures to create an image of the Statue of Liberty.
Please… give yourselves a perspective check when considering our Iraq situation. The war on/with Terror cost us 3,000 civilian lives in one day when it was brought to our soil. It’s cost 700 of our volunteer, professional soldiers since we took the war to the terrorists in Iraq. I truly don’t see how some people separate the Iraq Front from our larger war on terror with any intellectual honesty.
God bless and keep our troops.
How sad. This war in Iraq is bigger than revenge for 9/11. It’s bigger than “war for oil”. It’s bigger than Iraqi freedom. The big picture that should be displayed is peace in the Middle East. That is the ultimate goal.
As long as there are dictators killing their own people, terrorists regimes that perpetuate the problem with the teaching of terrorism to their children, countries full of scared civilians, women forced into oppression, and mad tyrannical leaders running around with the ability to create and use WMD, America will never be truly safe.
If America didn’t have to worry about misquided religious zealots trying to enforce their beliefs on everyone (if we aren’t of that same religion, we are infidels), then maybe sending our heros to the East wouldn’t be necessary. If 9/11 didn’t show you that PREVENTION is key, then the lesson is lost and those deaths are only a sad story of our times.
Much like putting a “Beware of Dog” sign in your front yard to warn off thiefs – if there isn’t a dog – it is only a matter of time before the thiefs come around. If you have something of value in your home, they will want it or hate you for having it. America is that home. We had a reputation for being tough and protective. Previous terrorist attacks (World Trade years ago, the bombing in Yemen, the story of Black Hawk down) was the thief checking to see if we really had a bad dog that would attack. They thought our dog was a puppy and attacked us in 9/11. If we don’t show we’ve got the dog, the thief will be back with all of his friends. If we sick the dog on the thief and his friends, we get rid of the thief and put a stop to terrorism for awhile.
There hasn’t been another attack on our soil since 9/11. Why? Because we let the dogs out. We flexed our muscle. But with so many of the inhabitants of our own home shirking the responsibility of protection (for a myriad of reasons), the thief is starting to get emboldened again – and they will be back. Directly after 9/11, America was ONE voice and WE WERE tough – no one could hurt us then. But our voice has lost it’s strength – and the terrorist hears it.
Bush said this fight would take years. He said this during his “Axis of Evil” speech. We are fighting an ideal – we are fighting oppression. We will win – as long as we stay strong and stay the course. It is a war that has never been waged before. There is NOTHING that we can compare it to – NO OTHER WAR OR CONFLICT. This is something new and waiting for another 9/11 simply isn’t an option in my book. Pre-emptive strike is the most logical solution there is – regardless of WMD or not (and some WMD has been found and was actually trying to be used in other countries – (the chemical WMD came from Syria – the country that has been suspected of “holding” saddam’s stuff and abetting saddam’s plans).
The flexing of our muscles has shown other Middle East countries that we mean business. Iran, Syria, Jordan – they have had to take good look at themselves and their relationship to us. As long as they respect us and our freedom, then I don’t really care if the LIKE us. The terrorists from the Middle East came to us with violence – and have been attacking for quite a few years. Now is the time to put an end to it – BEFORE it happens again. And putting an end to it is to go down the path of Middle East peace. When those countries (Iraq and Afghanistan) start experiencing real peace and freedom over there, it will catch like wildfire and spread. The more freedom spreads over there, the more peace we have over here.
Somehow, the big picture seems easy to see to me. America is right – we have done nothing wrong but progress. And apparently other countries hate us for it.
To them I say: GOD BLESS AMERICA!!! LAND THAT I LOVE!!!
Bush and the upper echelon of his government are war criminals. I hope they hang.
Although I am not an American, I am grateful to the Americans who are willing to sacrifice their own lives and those of their loved ones for cheaper oil and an American controlling stake in that crucial area of the Middle East. Though, I have to admit, I would never offer my own life for such a cause, oil is still obviously tremendously important for the global economy, from which I am a direct beneficiary. I am hopeful that recent progress in solar thermal power generators (see this week’s New Scientist), will eventually put an end to our reliance on oil, but I doubt that will make any difference to the problems of terrorism.
GREAT JOB ON THE SHADING EFFECTS. I WONDER IF THEY COULD MAKE SAME PICTURE WITH SADDAM OR OSAMA, HUM!
I am a veteran who volunteered for the draft in 1967. I understand completely the sense of indigination some other vets and their families feel about the use of the pictures of dead soldiers for this piece. I also feel that Bush is directly responsible for their murder, and a traitor to the USA and our citizens, because: he did not fully utilize international pressure and alliances before launching the attacks; he used our men as sacrifices to avenge the planned attempt on his father’s life; he has billed us all for the costs through taxes and reallocation of national resources,which results in more profit for oil companies while sending our citizens to their deaths and their families to debt; he chose the country adjacent to the one with real nuclear research and capabilities, rather than the one that might actually threaten us; he is a shirker and dishonors our uniforms when he wears a flight jacket; and he has helped further divide this great country by instituting a war without sufficient ground forces to maintain order and supply chains in a country of 25 MILLION (try holding back California alone with the number of troops we have: ha!). What we have is a President who is a murdering coward, clear and simple, with a wife who killed someone in a car by tearing through a stop sign and was never fully investigated or charged, and two kids, one of whom, like dad, is just a basic drunk. That all of these young and hopeful faces have been sacrificed on his word and inept planning and malfesance is really a war crime. Now, just like his father’s betrayal that resulted in the death of thousands of the Kurds, he’ll pull us out in June to save his re-election and the result will, again, be the mass murder of civilians in the area.
Comment by Jennifer: “If America didn’t have to worry about misguided religious zealots trying to enforce their beliefs on everyone “……
Guess what Jen, we don’t!
It wasn’t our place to go into IRAQ, not without the backing and help of the UN. What really bothers me is how many people still believe that the war in IRAQ is a war on terrorism!!
This has been called the war for oil because the connection between IRAQ and Osama is non-existent, though we may have created a nice fertile field for Alquida now that we are there.
Bush is in this war for what he can gain for his big oil buddies.
George W. Bush “cut and ran” when it was his turn to go to Viet nam. What a war hero, more like a war wimp. If this war is such a great idea, GWB, Cheney (another draft dodger), Karl Rove, et al should send their kids,their nieces and nephews first, instead of sending other people’s children to die.
Any artist who would use dead American soldiers to make fun of the president is a piece of shit.
To those responding to this mosaic who believe we should not criticize the President, the following quote from President Theodore Roosevelt is apt. It was part of an editorial he wrote for the “Kansas City Star” during World War I.
“The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”
“Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star”, 149
May 7, 1918
Comment # 434 by Carol.
You have just proven how ignorant the left and it’s walking, talking zombies are. You really should inform yourself before you go and put your “left” foot in your mouth. The only reason people like you want to see these images is to tear down this great country and its leadership. People like you laugh and joke with President Clinton about his shortcomings and antics while the rest of the world laughed at us, including the UN. If you want a socialist form of government move to one. I’m sure the French would love to have you.
Each of the individuals in this image are dead due to this man’s vision. What is that vision and why are we there? This is what we know now. 1. There were no weapons of mass destrucion. 2. There was no Iraq terrorist link. 3. There was no terrorist presense in Iraq – we created that after we attacked. 4. We are not there for oil because the cost of the war is greater that the amount of money we could logistically recover. 5. Sadam was an evil dictator among many in the world that are far worse – why pick him? Bottom line is we have no legitimate reason to allow our young men and women to die. We should all be ashamed for allowing this to happen. One thing this war shows us is how much Americans have absolutely no idea of what is gong on in their own government and the world around them.
Each of the individuals in this image are dead due to this man’s vision. What is that vision and why are we there? This is what we know now. 1. There were no weapons of mass destrucion. 2. There was no Iraq terrorist link. 3. There was no terrorist presense in Iraq – we created that after we attacked. 4. We are not there for oil because the cost of the war is greater that the amount of money we could logistically recover. 5. Sadam was an evil dictator among many in the world that are far worse – why pick him? Bottom line is we have no legitimate reason to allow our young men and women to die. We should all be ashamed for allowing this to happen. One thing this war shows us is how much Americans have absolutely no idea of what is gong on in their own government and the world around them.
You ultra-conservative zealots should realise that you are the sole cause for the hatred against America. It is yoyu who sent those soldiers to die, it is you who are causing the situation in teh middle east to become unsustainable and it is you that a causing the slow but steady downfall of the United States as the only superpower. You should learn from us Europeans: instead of diving, we are trying to unite. We do not devote ridiculous amounts of money to senseless military spending, we try to make better use of it. When the EU completes its integration there will be a new economic superpower which will use diplomacy and common sense instead of (stupid) brute force to solve conflicts.
And please dont call us cowards, our people had to face two world wars on their own land, which is exactly why now we are opposing thsi war.
From a European who happens to be Italian.
Comment # 437 by Rick.
First, Roosevelt would most likely have supported everything done to date in this war on terror and your sir would likely face his wrath at the use of his words to subvert the government of the United States. He would never have supported making the needs of the US subservient to the desires of the UN. You sir, and Carol should try to get group rate tickets to France. They should be one way of course.
apologies for the many spelling mistakes
Comments # 439 and 440 by Ken.
History will prove you ignorant of the facts and a fool.
I’m right there with you Kimmie. Maybe “Joseph” didn’t catch on when you said your husband was in the desert storm. Yes, my father is a viet vet as well and my husband is a semper fi who will be going over there. These men know why they are fighting. Sad news today about Tillman who was killed, but he went over there knowing what could happen. He gave up pro football and lots of money to do good because it was something he really believed in. I wish “Ultric Couture” would shut up and move out of this country. Our president is christian and he’s doing what he feels is right and I support him 100% as do MOST of our troops!!! Why would anyone vote for Kerry- oh, for peace. So everytime we are attacked we can turn our heads the other way, I mean, Why not- Clinton did it. Why in the world would we want that kind of president.
If you don’t like this country and you don’t support freedom- THEN GET OUT!!!!
You go “Go Bush”. From: A form Navy dependent and current AD Air Force member.
To #345 “T. Jefferson”
Your list is full of lies, damn lies, propaganda, and spin. Where do you get your information from, “The Onion”?
You have epitomized the problem we have here in America today with your rant. Uninformed people will read your list and not know where you have taken facts and twisted them and where you have actually made things up that bear no resemblance to reality. Not one single thing on your list is an honest and straight forward statement of the facts. Where you do actually list something factual – you blame President Bush for something that he either has no power over, had nothing to do with – or is something that is actually a very good thing that you try to make sound bad.
It is propaganda, like you spewed, that has divided this country. You and your ilk cannot win the hearts and minds of the American people with the Truth, so you take advantage of the fact that most Americans are terribly uninformed, and you use it in a despicable way to try to bring people over to your side with mis-information, and it does harm to ALL of us! What you have said discredits you and is a disservice to all Americans. Shame on you.
President Bush inherited most of the problems you want to blame him for and I think he has done a VERY good job of dealing with the mess left behind by Clinton. Your side has taken many of the best things he has done and tried to poison the minds of the American people by your relentless twisting of the facts.
If you were watching at all on September 11th, and the days and weeks therefafter, you should know that President Bush showed many acts of courage, bravery and strong leadership. He had to override Secret Security (which has it’s own rules of what to do and how to protect the POTUS in times of attack or danger) and insisted on going back to the White House over their protest. They didn’t want him anywhere near D.C.
I loved it when President Bush flew onto the aircraft carrier. I thought that it (once again) showed his bravery, and courage. And in case you weren’t paying attention, it WAS the “end of major combat”, which is what he said. He never once said the war was over. Your side began a damage control campaign immediately to take that event off the table for future use during campaign season, because that seems to be all you care about, and you know how incredibly powerful an image it was – which was more of your self serving disinformation that harms America. Showing a culture which holds the macho man image in high esteem that the President of the United States is a strong man is a good thing for our saftey – yet your side has done everything it can to undermine him, to the detrement of us all.
The Iraq War still to this very day has had less casualties than most wars have had on any single given day. Germany didn’t attack us either, but Iraq, under Saddam Hussein, has long been a very dangerous enemy of America.
Here is the part that you appeasers don’t get: President Bush has taken a very responsible, very intelligent, long term view of national security. If, in 50 – 100 years, Iraq has even come close to being more democratic, even if only bringing the people out of the barbaric 14th century to somewhere near the 18th or 19th century, if the madrassas have been stopped from teaching every generation to hate America, even in just this one country, in this very volatile part of the world – how can that be anything but good for our future national security?
Long term planning is what we should expect from our government and from our President, not just reacting to the next event. Maybe your grandchildren and great grandchildren won’t face the dangers that America faces today BECAUSE of the vision of THIS President.
Liberals always and only look at the short term. If it feels good today – do it – never mind the consequences of tomorrow, and if it’s too hard, DON’T do it.
I am very proud of George W. Bush, and I am very grateful every single day that he is our President at this crucial time. I believe we have been in WWIII for years, and I’m glad that he and his brilliant team has the intelligence to know it. YOU still don’t get it. And what is worse is that those of you who have not been paying attention to what has been happening out there in the world over the last decade that led up to September 11th – STILL don’t get it.
Clinton played at being President (taking hundreds of his closest friends on taxpayer funded vacations to every single country on the planet – some he visited 2, 3, 4 times or more) ‘while Rome was burning’, and you loved him because times appeared to be good on the surface. Trouble was brewing out there in the world and HE DID NOTHING TO DEAL WITH IT!
It is a FACT that he was not interested in National Security or Foreign Relations and he pretty much washed his hands of anything to do with these vital parts of his job as President and gave them to Al Gore to do. Read the “Cox Report” (it’s online and I’d recommend the Summary).
WHILE Clinton was President, the corrupted UN was skimming money from the Iraq “Oil for Food Program”, and France, Russia, and China were being bribed by Hussein. Wasn’t “No War For Oil” one of your favorite anti-war slogans? Who knew you guys meant that literally?! It really was a “no” vote, on the UN Security Council – FOR OIL MONEY – going into their own pockets!
Where is your outrage at the UN’s votes being bought and paid for?! Where is your outrage at France, Russia, Germany (also bought), and China for selling out the United States, thier “long time ally” and friend for oil money?! Do any of you have the moral integrity to be able to admit YOU were wrong about who was not being a friend to who? NO!
On the “15 million” (wildly inflated number) who protested the war – why don’t you break it down for the folks and tell us how many were Communits, Socialists, and Muslims? That’s a messy little fact the “liberal” media always leaves out. 20% of the population of France is now Muslim (enough to change now and begin soon taking over their government).
When will you people get who the enemy is? It is NOT the President who is trying with all his might to protect this country and each and every one of us.
“Japs”? Come on.
As I read all of the comments from everyone, I see a lot of comments from people either IN the military or related to someone in the military. Those are all of the people that are supporting Bush and agree with what he is doing. These people who are proudly serving over there, KNEW that something had to be done after we were attacked. When there was a possibility of nuclear weapons over in Iraq- WE HAD TO FIND OUT. What would you people that are so against Bush do. Would you wait until we were attacked and then what would you do. When would you finally say enough is enough>???
#433
Of all the flood of newbies coming in here, Mr Falcon, you’re the one who makes the most sense, here here!
I’m so impressed by your words, I just have to repost it for all the see again,
/// I am a veteran who volunteered for the draft in 1967. I understand completely the sense of indigination some other vets and their families feel about the use of the pictures of dead soldiers for this piece. I also feel that Bush is directly responsible for their murder, and a traitor to the USA and our citizens, because: he did not fully utilize international pressure and alliances before launching the attacks; he used our men as sacrifices to avenge the planned attempt on his father’s life; he has billed us all for the costs through taxes and reallocation of national resources,which results in more profit for oil companies while sending our citizens to their deaths and their families to debt; he chose the country adjacent to the one with real nuclear research and capabilities, rather than the one that might actually threaten us; he is a shirker and dishonors our uniforms when he wears a flight jacket; and he has helped further divide this great country by instituting a war without sufficient ground forces to maintain order and supply chains in a country of 25 MILLION (try holding back California alone with the number of troops we have: ha!). What we have is a President who is a murdering coward, clear and simple, with a wife who killed someone in a car by tearing through a stop sign and was never fully investigated or charged, and two kids, one of whom, like dad, is just a basic drunk. That all of these young and hopeful faces have been sacrificed on his word and inept planning and malfesance is really a war crime. Now, just like his father’s betrayal that resulted in the death of thousands of the Kurds, he’ll pull us out in June to save his re-election and the result will, again, be the mass murder of civilians in the area. ///
It looks like Laurel Endicott is an avid FoxNews watcher. That is a healthy source of information. Maybe the solution to the Iraq issue is to broadcast FoxNews in Iraq and soon they will realize how some of us are enlightened. Laurel isn’t that true? Long Live FoxNews!!!
As I was saying before, the people that actually are putting there lives on the line- they are wanting to be over there and they are in full support of Bush. As I read I see Joseph has a lot to say- well thats wonderful, I just feel so lucky to be living in a place that supports freedom of speech and have our own points of views. Not everyone will agree and that is why, you Joseph will NEVER defend our country. You aren’t brave enough to walk in our soldiers shoes over there. After 9/11 Bush AND Mayor Juliani were the 2 most strongest people!! I respect both of these great men because there are many people out there that could not handle it as well as they did. I AM SO GLAD WE ARE FIGHTING BACK!! This war is affecting the military and the military families the most and the funny thing is- is they are all of the ones that are supporting it!
Saddam had EVERY CHANCE to prevent war …
Saddam/Iraq had the responsibility to PROVE FULL COMPLIANCE with UN resolutions. (ceasefire agreement) They never fully complied.
“…Iraq declared that it had no biological weapons programme. When that claim was no longer tenable, Iraq provided a series of disclosure statements all of which have been found by international experts, on multiple occasions, to be neither credible nor verifiable…”
href=”http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/sres98-920.htm
To prevent war, Saddam was given 48 hours to leave Iraq.
US Public Law 105-338 ( The Iraq Liberation Act ) of 1998
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c105:4:./temp/~c1057LEGw2::
Saddam’s Atrocities (Human Rights):
UN doc 1
UN doc 2
UN doc 3
Laurel Enicott- your words were touching and so VERY TRUE!! I THINK EVERY PERSON OUT THERE SHOULD READ “DERELECTION OF DUTY” What Laurel said was So very true. Our president is still cleaning up the mess made by CLINTON!!! That book is written by Clintons right hand man (also known as the automic football carrier) he writes that Clinton had so many chances to catch Osama and he passed it up many times and turned his head after the USS Cole. This is a guy that NEVER left Clintons side. He also writes that they were so close to bombing where osam was and the planes were overhead and they needed the “GO AHEAD” from Clinton and clinton says “CALL BACK- I”M in the middle of a GOLF GAME” What kind of prick is clinton???? Yes, Clinton and Kerry are for Peace and not cutting back money for military. Do you know that while Clinton was in office- Hilary MADE all of the military Marines wear civilian clothes b/c she didn’t want to see any uniforms in the white house. I had a friend that served in the white house during all of this and most military Hated Clinton. The military is proud of there uniforms and it was very disrespectful to them!!
The picture is not complete-there are thousands more Iraqies that would have loved freedom only if they had not been killed by the same people who brought them freedom. To all those “Go Bushe”s-America was made by people who had to escape from europe because they had different ideas and now the same america can not stand different ideas. The mosaic is good, but like I said there shuld be much more faces…
Sorry- I meant they ARE for cutting the military budgets. Every person out there that is just so inlove with Clinton and thinks the world would be a better place if he or even his wife was in charge- really needs to read “derelection of duty” Please read it- you might learn something!!
IRAQI REGIME ADMITTED TO STATE OF WAR SINCE 1991
Commission On Human Rights 56th session (Geneva) April 7 2000.
“…Mr. AL-DORI (Iraq), referring to the statement by the representative of the United States of America, said it was a well-known fact that the United States had been in a STATE OF WAR WITH IRAQ SINCE 1991…”
Many Iraqi regime leaders have written to the UN stating similar hostilities. (ie daily attacks in no-fly zones)
DAILY HOSTILITIES evidenced by UN IRAQI LETTERS
Mohammed Mahdy Saleh, Minister of Trade (March 22 2002)
“…in addition to the continued daily aggression of the US and British warplanes in the so-called no-fly zones…”
http://www.un.org/ffd/statements/iraqE.htm
Naji Sabri, Minister of Foreign Affairs (Nov. 14 2001)
“…The daily aggression launched by American and British aircraft’ against Iraqi towns and villages within the so-called No-Fly Zones…”
http://www.un.org/webcast/ga/56/statements/011114iraqE.htm
SADIE T. ABBAS, Minister For Labour & Social Affairs (June 8 2000)
“…the accompanying daily acts of military aggression committed by the U.S. and U.K. aircraft within the illegal No-Fly zones…”
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/followup/beijing+5stat/statments/iraq8.htm
Well Mr. Yelo, Iraquies didn’t have freedom before we got there. Instead the women were hiding behind veils, there was no dancing, no laughing- children were attending schools where bombs were being made in the basement.
///As I read all of the comments from everyone, I see a lot of comments from people either IN the military or related to someone in the military. Those are all of the people that are supporting Bush and agree with what he is doing. These people who are proudly serving over there, KNEW that something had to be done after we were attacked. When there was a possibility of nuclear weapons over in Iraq- WE HAD TO FIND OUT. What would you people that are so against Bush do. Would you wait until we were attacked and then what would you do. When would you finally say enough is enough>??? ///
THEN DO IT RIGHT! DO IT IN AN HONORABLE WAY! DON’T DO A HALF-ASS JOB AND LIE TO THE WORLD TO WHAT YOU’RE DOING IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Do you even know what EXACTLY are our objectives in in the war in Iraq are? Getting rid of Saddam? Yeah right after the fact you say so but what about before? What about saying going to find WMDs? You know I’m not suprised we haven’t find dip shit! But then just admit we made a mistake… is that so f***ing hard to do? Bringing democracy and freedom to the Iraqi people? I’m not here to make judgements and in fact I ain’t an Iraqi citizen suffering from coalition humiliating searches, bombs, fire-fights that are dangerous to my and my family’s lives, so I’m not the one that is problem here! You should ask that question to those who are suffering it– the Iraqi masses at ground zero. And the fact of the matter is they ain’t happy! The “facts” are there and frankly it’s not hard to grasp or to understand. I said it before and I’ll say it again, my role in the forum is merely a ringer of the alarm bell. You choose to listen is entirely up to you. I can’t make you listen nor would I want to do that.
Now what I have a problem is the fact that many of you are condemning me and my words for NO GOOD REASON at all! I want to be ashamed of myself…. I want anyone of you to prove to me I’m an idiot, I’m unpatriotic, I’m full of shit, I should be ashamed of myself etc etc. But the fact of the matter is I just can’t say that about myself!!! Everything negative that has been said about me or about my words have NO substance and NO good reason to back it. So are you saying I should lie about my own position just to satisfy your own biases and prejudice? Should I just abandon my own thoughts and jump on this bandwagon of pro-Bush, pro-republican, pro-everything-about-America-even-though-I-know-damn-well-things-are-bad-and-might-very-well-harm-our-country-but-choose-to-hide-it-anyway…. is that it?
Many of you talked about how being NOT political about this….. but I ask you aren’t YOU being poltical yourself for endorsing Bush so adamnatly? As if he’s God? The perfect being who doesn’t have one fault about him? And the mere fact somebody here use the screen names of “Go Bush” or “Go Freedom” (ie, vote Bush 2004) clearly makes it VERY POLITICAL! In fact you couldn’t make it anymore politcal than that!
What about me you might ask? Am I being political here? No I’m not. Show me one sentence I’ve written on this website so far that proves I’m in favor of ANY political party…. yes I’m anti-Bush but that is it. I don’t endose Kerry or Libertarians or Ralph Nadar or anyone else. I don’t want to and I don’t need to. Me being here is purely to educate you, the reader, on some interesting issues and hopefully we may have an exchange of ideas on some topics. But clearly sometimes some of you wouldn’t allow me to do that.
Look, have any of you who think I’m an idiot listen to what I’ve said so far? I’ve posted tons and tons here and to those I’ve addressed, I’ve listened carefully and fully… even the ones I know it’s not worth responding to because it’s too childish and too senseless…. nevertheless I tried to listen and offer my own opinion. But no…. you guys have to get into a ‘shouting match’.
From the very beginning, the first post I made here #240 I’ve clearly give you my position about what I expect from offering my opinion here, I’ve said,
/// First off I don’t expect you to listen to me as you have clearly indicated in your post.///
That was an address to Jake’s comment specifically but I think all of you ‘haters’ out there should learn as well.
I’ve said what I wanted to say, you choose to listen it’s up to you.
Until next time.
Response to #456 by Yelo
We are helping to provide freedom to the Iraqi civilians. Do you seriously think that they were living happily as Saddam had them lined up and shot, beaten and tortured in rape rooms?? What about the athletes who were killed when they didn’t do well in their sport and lost? Why do people ignore the good that we are doing?
This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently:
(Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that
your paper is producing)
-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.
-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.
-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that
were stored there so education can occur.
-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from
ships faster.
-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
-The country had it’s first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the
war.
-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before
the war.
-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in
place.
-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with
US soldiers.
-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to
prevent the spread of germs.
-An interim constitution has been signed.
-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Text books that don’t mention Saddam are in the schools for the first
time in 30 years.
Sure does seem that we are just in it for the oil, right?? Whatever! Get a clue people.
And to the people that say we should have waited for the UN – When do we start letting other countries tell us what to do? Doesn’t sound like freedom to me. That’s not why my husband and thousands of other brave men and women put their lives on the line. And isn’t it the UN that traded rotten food for oil in that wonderful scandal?? When are we going to wake up and take a stand?
GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS AND THEIR FAMILIES!!!!
George Bush is my president. He’s not perfect, but then no-one is. He has restored honor, faith and integrity to the White House after they were absent for 8 long years. To those, who in keeping with their liberal agenda, see fit to tear him down with lies, half-truths and opinion…history will be the judge, not you.
this is pure democatic bs
Reason why UN did NOT ENFORCE it’s resolutions:
Several countries, with VETO POWER within the UN Security Council, were trading with Iraq.
(Coincidence?)
ALL (France, Russia, & China) HAD GREAT OIL DEALS with Saddam AND ALL were against ANYTHING that could possibly lead to military action.
(Coincidence?)
“…Prior to the toppling of Iraq’s Ba’athist regime, the country reportedly had signed several multi-billion dollar deals with foreign oil companies mainly from China, France, and Russia. …”
Also, it appears the UN had interests in keeping the “oil for food” gravy train rolling.
UNSC Veto Nations:
http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/unsc_members.html
US Dept. Of Energy:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html
UNITED WE STAND ?
Andrea, I hope you don’t mind but I actually forwared your quote. People need to see what good is coming out of Iraq because of the presence of our troops. Stuff like that is not shared on fox news, etc and the people need to be informed of the good. Many liberals are so quick to judge and turn there heads at our President and those are the same people who would never go to war and have no back bone. Those people are cowards that think obtain peace is so simple and those people are living in a dream world.
God Bless our troops!
Laurel your #448,
///The Iraq War still to this very day has had less casualties than most wars have had on any single given day. Germany didn’t attack us either, but Iraq, under Saddam Hussein, has long been a very dangerous enemy of America. ///
Long been? As in what? couple of years? a decade? two decades? three decades?
Go check out The National Security Archive,
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm
And read the captions of that picture–
///Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets (shakes hand) Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983///
Hello?!!!!!! 1983, that’s just a little over 2 decades old and not even a decade old to the first Gulf War. And you call Iraq a long-standing dangerous enemy? The Soviets are the ones whose long been our enemy. Get your facts straight!
If you had a kid in 1983, he or she would only be 20-something years old…. in fact it would be several years after 1983 (closer to the date of America declaring war on Saddam after he invaded Kuwait) that America considers Iraq the “enemy”. That is what happened.
Modern wars have “less casualties” because of the advancement of technology and the simple fact of modernity. It has little to do with “Daddy’s” tough stance or something special that the administration had done just for that war. Military expenditure has always been a high priorty in the USA, regardless of administartion. From Carter to Bush Senior to Clinton to W Buch, every administration every president has supported the research and development of advanced military technology… and not surprisingly this R&D pays off tremendously in modern warfare(s) but we still have a long way to go if we want clean and bloodless battles to be a reality.
Deriliction of Duty written about Clinton was a wonderful book. Anyone that thinks Clinton is a great man now will have second thoughts after reading this book. It’s very disturbing.
Poignant portrait there. For those complaining about using pictures of our fallen soldiers to make a political statement (personally I’d call it a personal statement against one man, GW Bush), keep in mind that these soldiers died due to skewed ideology, politics, and financial interests of President Bush, and his neo-conservative cabal. While they died patriots for doing their duty, their duty in this case was NOT one of self-protection of America, of advancing the causes of freedom. If you criticize the maker of the portrait for using soldiers’ lives for a selfish or foolish purpose, you should in turn criticize President Bush 1000000x as much for the same reasons.
The creator of that portrait didn’t send 700 soldiers to Iraq. Didn’t spend $100 billion+ for the right to go and die. Didn’t lie and strectch the truth to the American public. Place your blame where it belongs.
Regarding the “new” rationale for the war as espoused by GW, the “freedom” of Iraqis and bringing of Democracy to the Middle East, a few points. First, Democracy (assuming it actually is achieved in Iraq) is not new to the Middle East. Several ME countries have, largely on their own, gradually been reforming over the last decade and more to greater Democracy. Post Yemeni Civil War, Yemen pursued it and has gone through growing pains. Syria has long been a pseudo-Democracy/pseudo-Military dictatorship. Most ME countries allow for at least direct elections for Parliament or “Congress”, some directly for the President and/or Prime Minister. Ironically the least Democratic state has been the US’ strongest ally over the last decade–Saudi Arabia allows for ZERO elections at all, being a hereditary Monarchy/dictatorship. Kuwait is also very limited Democracy, allowing for only 10% of its citizens to vote, and that merely for the legislative branch. And do keep in mind that our second big ally in the region today, Pakistan, is a dictatorship, whose current President orchestrated a military coup of a Democratic rule. If the US is adamant about turning the ME into a Democracy, it’s going about it a strange way.
Second, regarding the freedom of Iraqis. Sure, Saddam is gone and that’s a good thing, don’t think many would argue against that. However the history of the US doesn’t demonstrate that Iraqis of the future (10, 20 years) will be any freer than Iraqis of the past. Since Mossadeq, the Shah, Hussein himself, we’ve a history of supporting dictators and/or overthrowing more popular-minded leaders. In the past the rationale was stopping Communism (which was not a dictatorship–democracy war but rather a communism–capitalism war, but that’s another subject Just see Chile for a quick example).
Our recent history doesn’t seem too much better. The warlords are still firmly in control of much of Afghanistan, the Taliban and al qaeda, if they were ever wiped out there, have begun growing again. Karzai is the half-leader of a half-controlled country, with little public support due to a tainted loya jirga. The opium fields are as strong as ever and funnelling monies directly to ne’er-do-wells. At best I’d say we’ve achieved a temporary status quo of a technically democratic state. At worst, as soon as US troops leave, the country will quickly fall into a collection of fiefdoms, with warlords controlling most and Karzai et al controlling only a few big cities. The Taliban will grow again, etc.
Oh, but are we “serious” about sticking around in Iraq as opposed to Afghanistan? Well, considering our current President, I wouldn’t count on it. I’d count on a quick shift in focus (and commitment) from Iraq, in favor of attacking a new psuedo-threat, probably Syria, less-so Iran (Iran is a much harder military conquest). If you noticed, as the initial military push into Iraq was winding down, Rumsfeld and others began making threats to Syria and Iran. A precursor to what could well come if Bush gains reelection. Democracy in Iraq, and free Iraqis? Better to ask that question in 10 years.
The most important thing to be gained from the portrait of Bush is that if we do nothing to stop his reckless, warrantless belligerence, in 5 more years of his rule it could be made of thousands more photos of our soldiers. Soldiers used as puppets in his idiotic campaign.
Finally, the motivations of the Bush Administration are several. Primarily, the neo-con agenda requires continuing strife (or at best a tenuous peace) in the oil-rich Middle East, to serve as a quick excuse for military action should we ever desire to do so. A lasting, peaceful, Democratic ME is actually the neo-cons’ worst nightmare, as it would prevent an easy “justification” to the credulous American public to intervene. We cannot rely on the ME to set it’s own course, gain a regional hegemony, or OPEC to be any stronger than it is. Not that we rely on ME gas so much ourselves, but for the world economy we must be the largest presence in the ME, able to pressure countries at the drop of a dime; at least that’s the neo-cons’ views.
Second, Bush is a religious nutcase. Several times he’s alluded to his being chosen by the Almighty, to do the things he’s doing. With a higher justification, he’s unable to apply real-world logic to his actions and decision-making. He references God and Jesus in many speeches, and references America as God’s chosen country to lead the world to freedom and whatnot. While GW may not pursue the neo-con agenda firmly, his gullible religious leanings make him easy to control and persuade by Cheney, Wolfowitz, and others.
Additionally, post-Afghanistan Bush had nowhere obvious to go in the War on Terror, except for…Pakistan (which we never should’ve allied with for the Afghan War). The most ludicrous aspect of the Iraq War and leadup was the Bush Adminstration’s attempts to paint this as a piece of the War on Terror. Completely ridiculous, Iraq had no more ties to terror than Turkey, Saudi Arabia, hell perhaps even Trinidad & Tobago. Saddam has never given an organization outside his own Ba’ath party and state a single handgun, much less “weapons of mass destruction”. His payments to the families of suicide bombers in Palestine were post-bombing, and whether then given to facilitate more terror up to the families. Who, of course, automtically have their homes destroyed by IDF bulldozers. Abu Nidal sought haven in Iraq, but was hardly supported by Iraq, hell they almost certainly killed him! Ansar al-Islam was in Northern Iraq, in the No-fly zone, and outside Iraq proper’s jurisdiction. Saddam and al-Islam were perhaps standoffish, but did he fund them? Doubtful. Ironically the only real example of harboring terrorists is MEK, an anti-Iranian theocracy group that based from Central Iraq. And which the US, after conquering Iraq, did not even disband or jail! They are currently free to operate from within a compound, and several US Congresspeople want them removed from our State Dep’t’s Foreign Terrorist Organizations list, so that they can be funded and used to apply pressure to Iran. That’s right, a group on our freaking FTO may well become a fair-weather ally, continuing the long, long history of hypocrisy and idiocy in the Middle East. Finally, Saddam’s Iraq was secular, and anathema as such to Osama bin Laden. Any ideological ties or cordiality between Iraq and al qaeda did not exist; at best they tolerated each other but they would never be major allies.
Finally there are the sets of conservative and liberal politicians who buy that our consistent mission is to bring freedom and democracy to the ME, and that if war can achieve this, even as a secondary action, it’s good enough. These people are utter fools, hypocrites, and blind.
Bottom-line: Criticizing the artist of the above portrait, when there are SO many more valid criticisms of Bush & US actions which have led, and will lead, to more faces available for such portraits, is hopelessly naive and off-point.
My suggestion: For the US to quit screwing up the Middle East by withdrawing significant political and military presence, and simply going for a goal of cordiality. Some seem to want for the ME to simultaneously love the US and respond to US threats, to be democracies, yet only if they’re friendly to us, etc. Decades of failure should let us know that the ME is its own beast, and we should approach it and its resources the same as about 180 other countries–as entities to be tolerated, aided at times, but not inflamed via intrusive policy. We’ve dug ourselves a huge hole in the region through these decades, one that it may be impossible to climb out of (particularly with our one-sided support of Israel, support which neither Bush, Kerry, nor any future US leaders show signs of abating). Face it: The Middle East will not likely love us, and if we don’t radically shift policies in the region, will not even be merely apathetic to us–they will actively hate us, anti-US groups will gain more and more recruits, states will grow more and more defensive and complicit in anti-US dogma and actions, and we will be screwed. Three Crusades couldn’t displace regional sentiment and soveriegnty, and Bush’s Fourth Crusade sure as hell won’t either.
Mr. Sam, though you know more about the situation in Iraq than me, I heard that Sadam pushed Iraq to 20th century by bringing eletricity and education to many remote vialges in Iraq (A&E series on 5 worst dictators in the world). I also tought Iraq was a better example, in terms of personal freedom, in that part of the world. I am aware of many Kurds whome Sadam poisoned, but Turky (our buddy) killed even more Kurds. If Sadam pushed Iraq to 20 century, we pushed them back to 19 century. I am sorry, I don’t see any good we brought to Iraq…
Hey #434, if we went to war for oil, why is it $2.50 a gallon? You are a dope.
Timmy boy, because the Bush family and Cheny family can earn extra bonuses with those prices.
It’s call business profits. You’ll know when you have a chance to own a business.
/// George Bush is my president. He’s not perfect, but then no-one is. He has restored honor, faith and integrity to the White House after they were absent for 8 long years. To those, who in keeping with their liberal agenda, see fit to tear him down with lies, half-truths and opinion…history will be the judge, not you ///
Telling me about he is this or he is that…… or flaming me about me being a liberal or as how you put it, /// keeping with their liberal agenda, see fit to tear him down with lies, half-truths and opinion /// doesn’t mean anything to anybody.
What EXACTLY did Bush do that is honorable? War? Economy? Social issues?
How the f–k can you tell that I’m liberal? What did I say that shows I’m a liberal? So I criticize Bush and that automatically makes me a liberal, is that it? You said he’s not perfect…. you’re a liberal, stupid!
How do I see fit to tear him down? Was I not telling you the truth? Was I not making sense?
Which ones I said are half-truths?
And tell me what is wrong with my opinion?
You’re wrong. I’m not judging at all. If Bush f–ks up the country, we all suffer. If we don’t at least voice our concern about a problem, we lose. History is history. It will happen whether Iraq will eventually become a democratic country or not (the most in my estimate is Iraq becoming a country like Jordan, which is still short of a democracy). So why you’re flaming me about the word “history” is beyond me.
You should’ve said Bush is the judge. That sounds more valid and makes better sense.
This dork that made this stupid mosaic should be sued. If I was a family member of one of these soldiers then I would sue this person for using a picture to make some false point about our president. Most likely many of these soldiers respected our President and would be outraged to have there picture in some sort of tasteless collage.
I would like to see this “so called artist” in a real battlefield but instead he would probably be cowaring behind some desk. In our history books it talks about many wars and battles where many people have lost there lives- well guess what people- it’s not going to stop here. I am sure we will have many more wars in the future and we will lose more people. It’s not a pleasant thought but harsh reality.
Yes, until the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq was economically and socially progressive. In particular their women’s rights were among the best in the region. Interesting that there’s a possibility for a place for Sharia law in the new Iraqi Constitution in a couple years that could again place Iraqi women as second-class citizens. Of course, Saddam was a bastard too.
To those saying “if you Bush-haters had your way Saddam would still be in power”, yeah no shit. Iraq sucked and Saddam was a bastard but so are a lot of countries and a lot of leaders. You Bush-lover having your way means Kim Jong-il is still in power too, eh? How about Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Francois Duvalier, Fidel Castro, Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin, Nicolai Caecescu, etc? Should I blame you for keeping them in power, or blame our traditional (and globally accepted) policy of not intervening in every crappy country?
Historically the best response to tyranny is a popular coup or uprising. It sucked for Iraqis under Saddam’s regime, but was it our responsibility to overthrow Saddam? If so, and by your words I assume you think so, what do you suggest we do about the dozen or so other current countries with similar bastardly rulers? Or do you merely support freeing the Iraqi people as a cause unto itself simply because that’s the only war Bush undertook? If granting freedom to oppressed people is your single justification for war, you’d better be damned consistent and apply it universally.
In reference to Joseph- take a look at the weeks after 9/11 and you will see how honorable and strong our President is. He went back to the white house when he was warned not to go. I was at Miramar base when the President came to speak- if you would have seen the crowds you would know how much respect he gets and he has earned it. When he landed on the air craft carrier, that showed his gratitude to all of the soldiers. You might find this hard to believe but many people actually respect him and he has done a hell of a job cleaning up after Clinton.
Cleaning up after Clinton? Uh, how so? Certainly not economically…
Yes, Bush did a great job for about four months after 9/11, I certainly respect him for that. The entire Iraq War however was a boneheaded, needless, cowboy affair and we’re paying in blood and money for it. And after those four months, Afghanistan was almost completely ignored and has fallen back into a wild state.
His flight deck appearance is meaningless as a commentary on the decision to war in the first place. Or would you feel respectful if he’d done the same thing after declaring war on say, Brazil or Canada? Stupid is stupid, and no ballsy determination PR is going to change the stupidity of the context.
You want to know how he cleaned up after clinton- GO READ “DERELICTION OF DUTY” and you will find out the mess Clinton made!!
#462
///-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.
-Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.
-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that
were stored there so education can occur.
-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from
ships faster.
-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
-The country had it’s first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the
war.
-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before
the war.
-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in
place.
-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with
US soldiers.
-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to
prevent the spread of germs.
-An interim constitution has been signed.
-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Text books that don’t mention Saddam are in the schools for the first
time in 30 years.///
Hello? Iraq isn’t Africa!
Don’t think for a second people would buy into the crap you put out. 4.5 million people drinking clean water for the first time? Ha! If you are going to lie to me at least come up with something more plausible. Iraq isn’t a dirt-poor third world country….. it has a rich oil-economy even during Saddam’s days…. Baghdad is one of the most vibrant cities in the middle east. It is comparable to Cario or Bangkok or even smaller cities in the States.
The situation in Iraq is bad but not as bad as, for example, what happens in Afghanistan…… now if you tell me 4.5 million Afghan people have clean drinking water for the first time, I would believe you and I would say that is MAJOR progress. But again Iraq is NOT Afghanistan.
///Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to
prevent the spread of germs.///
WTF? Do you sreiously think the Iraqis are kindergarteners?
All the infrastructure you pointed out there is valid but most of them have been in existence during Saddam’s reign. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it’s hard to believe a large segment of the population would experience basic modern needs for the first time, like how you put it….. though I have no problems believing a small tiny part of the population would fit that description.
I guess the only one on that list that I find not to be curious is this,
///Text books that don’t mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years///
Yay! Coalition troops!
///In reference to Joseph- take a look at the weeks after 9/11 and you will see how honorable and strong our President is. He went back to the white house when he was warned not to go. I was at Miramar base when the President came to speak- if you would have seen the crowds you would know how much respect he gets and he has earned it. When he landed on the air craft carrier, that showed his gratitude to all of the soldiers. You might find this hard to believe but many people actually respect him and he has done a hell of a job cleaning up after Clinton. ///
Did I ever say anything about Bush not being honorable after 911? Or anything about 911 recently?
You’re right he has done a hell of job right after the disaster and my hats off to him….. but unfortunately that’s just about the only honorable thing he did in the 4 years in office.
And speaking of being honorable, where was HE on September 10, 2001? What did he choose to do right after the daily briefings on terrorism (among other agendas of the day) days before 911?
You want to talk about 911, tell the whole story.
I think its sick you used dead american soldiers to make a mosaic to make your point about Bush Couldnt you have found another way. THose very same men and women had respect for Bush and wouldnt like what youve done nor would they have appreciated your use of their pictures. I find this disgusting and low very low
RESUME
George W. Bush
The White House,USA
EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE
LAW ENFORCEMENT: I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine in 1976
for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and
had my driver’s license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record
has been “lost” and is not available.
MILITARY: I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I
refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By
joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in
Vietnam.
COLLEGE: I graduated from Yale University. I was a cheerleader.
PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:
I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.
I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas in 1975.
I bought an oil company, but couldn’t find any oil in Texas. The company
went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.
I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal
that took land using taxpayer money.
With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil
industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected Governor of Texas.
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR:
I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies,
making Texas the most polluted state in the Union.
During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most
smog-ridden city in America.
I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of
billions in borrowed money.
I set the record for the most executions by any Governor in
American history.
With the help of my brother, the Governor of Florida, and my
father’s appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after
losing by over 500,000 votes.
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:
I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of
over one billion dollars per week.
I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S.
Treasury.
I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S.
history.
I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in
any 12-month period.
I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of
the U.S. stock market.
I am the first president in U.S. history to enter office with a
criminal record.
I set the the all-time record for most days on vacation in any
one year period.
After taking-off the entire month of August, I presided over the
worst security failure in U.S.history.
I am supporting development of a nuclear “Tactical Bunker
Buster,” a WMD.
In my State Of The Union Address, I lied about our reasons for
attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.
I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S.
president.
In my first year in office over 2-million Americans lost their
jobs and that trend continues every month.
I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month
period.
I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any
president in U.S. history.
I set the record for least amount of press conferences than any
president since the advent of television.
I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and
refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was
revealed.
I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.
I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a
cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families — in war
time.
I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to
simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people) shattering the
record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
I’ve broken more international treaties than any president in
U.S. history.
I’m proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any
administration in U.S. history. My “poorest millionaire,”Condoleeza
Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.
I am the first president in U.S. history to order an unprovoked,
pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign
nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S.
citizens, and the world community.
I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest
bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.
I am the first president in U.S. history to have the United
Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.
I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.
I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. prisoners of war”
detainees) and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.
I am the first president in history to refuse United Nations
election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).
I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the
most corporate campaign donations.
My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best
friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over thelargest corporate bankruptcy fraud
in U.S. history. My political party used the Enron private jets and
corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court
during my election decision. I have protected my friends at Enron and
Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was
spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent
investigating one of the biggest corporate ripoffs in history.
I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade
Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated
country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.
I am first president in history to have a majority of Europeans
(71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.
I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be
awarded government contracts.
I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin
Laden and Saddam Hussein to justice.
RECORDS AND REFERENCES:
All records of my tenure as Governor of Texas are now in my
father’s library, sealed, and unavailable for public view.
All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my
Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and
unavailable for public review.
Why is it sick, Nadine? Are they Bush’s private property? Is it easier to see mutilated corpses in Africa (people we did not help because they didn’t have oil)? Not to mention that I am sure that many of them did not support Bush’s war.
You know what nadine? Don’t think of the mosaic as something against the president. Think of it as something that honors Bush. You said it yourself, ///THose very same men and women had respect for Bush /// and I couldn’t think of anything more respectable and honorable than having your own pic plastered on part of a greater image of your ‘favorite’, ‘respectable’ idol.
I know I would like my dead portrait to be part of a Britney Spears mosaic…. I would like to be part of her lips…. Mmmmm
A Texan, it’s been posted already…. but good one nonetheless.
“A Texan” that is just stupid. People have been trying to take shots at him, his wife, his family. Why take cheap shots? We all make mistakes- no one is perfect. And to answer Yelo- Africa wasn’t a threat to us, the thought of weapons of mass destruction was. That is a direct threat to the U.S. and I am SURE many of those people were in support of Bush’s war. How do I know that- well I live on a military base. Those pictures are WRONG!!
Yo Rachell:
Those pictures are RIGHT!!
THEY CAN’T GET NO RIGHTER
Learn proper english!
Those pictures are a lash at our President and they are done in very poor taste.
#462
///Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.///
BTW while you’re at it, why don’t you list everything what the schools are teaching these kids in Iraq.
Students are taught to watch both ways before crossing the road to prevent pedestrian injuries
Students are taught to raise their hands before asking a question to keep discipline in the classroom
Students are taught Algebra to advance their math skills and maybe someday become a mathematician
Students are taught to do jumping jacks to prevent obesity and unhealthy bodies
Students are taught to use condoms during sexual intercourse to prevent AIDS
……….
🙂
Learn proper english!
Those pictures are to take a lash out at our president and the pictures are done in poor taste and our soldiers deserve a lot more then that.
Now we’re into prophecies and conspiracy theories….. oh boy! And you guys are telling me America has no problems and everthing is on the up and up….
If you people get a chance you should go to sports illustrated (si.com) and read the article by Tim Layden. He wrote an entire article on Tillman- what a heroe. He turned down money to defend our freedom which is more then I can say about a lot of you. He has morals, like our president. He knew what it was to be a loyal person. He turned down 9 million dollars that was offered to him to switch teams but he wanted to be loyal to his team- so he walked away from the money and the greed. Clinton was bought out- he would do things for money and money is the root of evil. OUR president, Mr. Bush is a loyal and respectful person. He does things that he believes is right – not because of money!!
The families of these fallen heroes are probably proud that portraits of the fallen heroes are being used to make such a morbid political statement. NOT!
///And to answer Yelo- Africa wasn’t a threat to us, the thought of weapons of mass destruction was. That is a direct threat to the U.S. and I am SURE many of those people were in support of Bush’s war. How do I know that- well I live on a military base. Those pictures are WRONG!! ///
Then why are there not as much Americans migrate to Africa, Congo, Ivory Coast, Sudan for instance, as how many have imgrated towards Brazil or Japan or England? Do you know if you step foot in many of those countries your life is threatened, you might get kidnapped, robbed, murdered? And you tell me that is not a threat? Of course as long as you don’t travel over there, nothing’s going to happen. And of course as long as it is “them” killing eachother off, it’s none of our business. The thing is as long as there is a large discrepancy between the rich and the poor or rich nations and the poorer ones or the haves and the have nots, the threat of a rebellion or challenge from the poor will sooner of later happen eventually…. look at Iraq, look at North Korea…. they started off just like today’s tiny African nations with nothing but once their political destiny is determined with nobody challenging corruption, brutality, poverty, basically dictatorship then we can expect another Saddam, another Kim Jong Il born in the African continent. It’s only a matter of time and a matter of who’s dictator is the most brutal and powerful enough to be able to challenge the United States. Get ready for another mosaic of the president…. that would be years down the road so it probably will not be Bush.
And speaking of mosaic. Take a look at what I wrote to Nadine (post #485)
I’m sure you’ll change your mind about the pic after reading that :p
Iraq Anniversary Poll
70 % of Iraqis say things overall are going well for them
71 % expect their lives to improve over the next year.
54 % say their security is better now than it was before the war.
77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces.
( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative. )
US LED INVASION
48 % say US was right
39 % say US was wrong
13 % have no opinion
ATTACKS ON COALITION
78 % say Unacceptable
17 % say Acceptable
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
Poll was conducted for ABCNEWS, ARD, the BBC and NHK by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England
///If you people get a chance you should go to sports illustrated (si.com) and read the article by Tim Layden. He wrote an entire article on Tillman- what a heroe. He turned down money to defend our freedom which is more then I can say about a lot of you. He has morals, like our president. He knew what it was to be a loyal person. He turned down 9 million dollars that was offered to him to switch teams but he wanted to be loyal to his team- so he walked away from the money and the greed. Clinton was bought out- he would do things for money and money is the root of evil. OUR president, Mr. Bush is a loyal and respectful person. He does things that he believes is right – not because of money!! ///
Speak for youself…. or should I say Tillman….. Cut funding to these soldiers or marines or whatever and tell me nobody’s going to complain? And ALOT of ‘volunteers’ are in for EXACTLY that— the money. With the economy all f–ked up (thanks to Mr Bush) people will have to find ways to earn a living. And in fact study shows military recruits comes majority from poor income families, basically poor kids with little education, unable to find steady jobs so they have no choice but to choose the military route as an opporunity or as a “way out”. Now I’m not saying that is necessarily a bad thing but it does, to a degree, take advantage of the poor. You wouldn’t see Bill Gates having gun battles against resistance fighters in Baghdad but what you would likely see is your high school buddy going into Iraq to do just that.
Oh boy! I trust ABC with my life! Thanks Doughboy…. or should I say Doh!Boy
You know what doh!boy…. go ahead and stay in Iraq as long as Bush wants…. in fact don’t leave that place and let the polls do the talking. Forget about what I have to say. Forget about what Iraqis have to say. Forget about what individual soldiers have to say.
Listen to your almighty. Listen to your infallible immaculate righteous president Bush.
IRAQI BLOGs
http://www.iraq-iraqis.blogspot.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
NOTE: Poll was by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England (not ABC)
#345 commets, You forgot to say that when it rains,snow, or thessun shines that it was all W’s fualt. GROW UP! Get off the MTV channel and start reading newpapers and listening to UNBIASED reporting. You sound like a whiney liberal who is still upset about Clinton!
(USAID) Iraq Reconstruction Accomplishments: A Brief Overview
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/
Coalition Provisional Authority: Weekly Reports
http://www.cpa-iraq.org/weeklies.html
///NOTE: Poll was by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England (not ABC) ///
I know that I was referrin’ to this
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
You did offer that on the post didn’t you? ABC website? Hello?
///Props to Bush. I just returned from Iraq. Killed those damn bastards. I support the war completely. Vote Bush. ///
Yes vote Bush so that you’ll going have to go back again…. and again and again…. I salute you hero. Oh yea and good luck!
Notice after I put out this statement ///Forget about what individual soldiers have to say. ///
All of a sudden there is a flood of Iraq veterans leaving comments here…. it’s a curious thing isn’t it? You guys would make pinocchio proud.
“/Yes vote Bush so that you’ll going have to go back again…. and again and again…. I salute you hero. Oh yea and good luck! /”
Very nice Joseph. Now you take is upon yourself to insult an American soldier. So much for your “i totally support our troops stance.” That man deserves a hundred times more attention than you. You only talk. He acts. Props Joe.
Oh Jake…. I thought you were thru with me already? My fat and ugly wife says hi, she also says she wants to divoice me because she had such a good time last night. She wants her seconds. And I don’t just mean the strawberry angel food cake.
I’ll be at my lawyers if you need me. Wish you guys all the best!
///Very nice Joseph. Now you take is upon yourself to insult an American soldier. So much for your “i totally support our troops stance.” That man deserves a hundred times more attention than you. You only talk. He acts. Props Joe. ///
What insult? What did I say that was an insult? Wasn’t I telling you and him the truth? As long as Bush is in office he wants and frankly NEEDs to clean up the mess in Iraq and it’s only logical that any soldier coming back from their tour has to go back some time to finish it. It’s not like the war is over or anything my friend. I said good luck and I saluted him….. what the hell more do you want me to do? Kiss his ass, literally (that’s unsanitary btw)?
Yes go figure….. why you’re telling me about your sexual escapades is beyond me and frankly kind of creeps me out.
I’m over her and frankly I have a girlfriend so that means I’m over the soon to be ex.
BTW my “wife” is not the only one getting seconds….. if you f–ked her you are getting seconds after ME 😉
Don’t worry I don’t think I have any herpes or anything…. Good luck with your new relationship!
http://www.rebuilding-iraq.net
(see News & Events)
http://www.export.gov/iraq/businessops/businessguide_current.html
(donations & currency issues)
http://www.iraqibusinesscenter.org/
(contracts)
On a day such as this, upon finding out about the loss of a true American Hero, Pat Tillman (Arizona Cardinals, NFL)
A man who knew the risks, leaving a wife and family behind, a man who walked away from a $9,000,000 contract to serve his country, to preserve the freedoms of this twisted twit creator of the Bush mosaic and the moronic Michael Moore (go buy some teeth you idiot). I am both saddened an inspired, saddened because these selfish boobs would rather would rather denorgrate these fallen heros and wait around for the next 9-11 and do everything they can to get the mealy-mouthed John Kerry elected and turn our freedoms over to the UN and the World Court. I did say inspired too, didn’t I? Inspired because everyone of these 600+ heros all went voluntarily, not drafted, not kicking and screeming hiding behind their so called religion ala Cassius Clay, aka Mohammad Ali. God bless these hereos for preserving the Freedoms we enjoy in this Great Country of ours and God bless their families for producing such fine young people. In closing let me extend my heartfelt thanks to President Bush, the epitome of a leader a man who is led by his beliefs not public opinion polls!
Iraq Anniversary Poll
70 % of Iraqis say things overall are going well for them
71 % expect their lives to improve over the next year.
54 % say their security is better now than it was before the war.
77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces.
( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative. )
US LED INVASION
48 % say US was right
39 % say US was wrong
13 % have no opinion
ATTACKS ON COALITION
78 % say Unacceptable
17 % say Acceptable
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
Poll was conducted FOR ABCNEWS, ARD, the BBC and NHK BY Oxford Research International of Oxford, England
RESPONSE TO #509
> > I know that I was referrin’ to this
> > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
> > Comment by JOSEPH — Friday April 23, 2004 @ 7:26 pm
Don’t like ABC? You still have a choice of news agencies: ARD, the BBC and NHK. (do a google search)
Iraq Anniversary Poll (BBC – pdf version)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf
enjoyed seeing so many die for my sake.
Doh!Boy, about your poll…
70 % of Iraqis say things overall are going well for them
71 % expect their lives to improve over the next year.
54 % say their security is better now than it was before the war.
If you asked me that is fair rating but not good enough…. we’re supposed to bring democracy and freedom, do you think low 70s and 60s reflect what this mission should result? Saddam IS gone for god sakes! There shouldn’t be NO MORE threat…. it’s like the head of the dragon has been severed but somehow, and many of you still don’t realize it, the rest of the dragon’s body is still putting up a good fight!
What does that mean? That means whatever we’re doing now is only substandard, it means we failed in our planning of the campaign. It means whoever’s making the decision at the top failed and made some serious mistakes and miscalculations etc. And the ones who are paying the price are first, the Iraqis (hundreds of thosands of them) then the coalition troops (casualty toll mount day by day) and third, is the administration itself, which is under fire for its ‘mistakes’.
77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces.
( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative. )
So 80 percent is untouched is what you’re saying. And that’s ‘good’ news actually but I would think this has to do with military strategy and the advancement of technology than good o’ white house policy.
US LED INVASION
48 % say US was right
39 % say US was wrong
13 % have no opinion
If you were to add 13 and 39 that comes out to 52, give or take 2 percentage points and you beat the 48 percent. Now I’m not saying I’m definitely right about this but to me it seems this poll is skewed to favor “US was right”…. again this is only speculative and I could very well be wrong. But I tend to think polls are published only when they are favourable to a certain outcome and thus not entirely unbias and accurate.
ATTACKS ON COALITION
78 % say Unacceptable
17 % say Acceptable
Of course people are going to deny any involvement in the attacks. Why would you resist someone or something that is bigger, more powerful than you. You’re going to have to be pretty brave and pretty ‘ballsy’ to resist the coalition troops. And yet we do see this happening right now. Then you must question the effectiveness of the coalition…. are they implementing a wrong strategy or just plain weak?
Just some things to think about.
BBC’s story on mosaic
(bottom of page)
An American anti-war activist, Joe Wezorek, has published a stark mosaic image of President George W Bush composed from photos of US service men and women killed in Iraq.
Anti-war protest: Joe Wezorek’s image of President Bush
The picture, called “War President,” appears on Mr Wezorek’s website, American Leftist.
He describes it as “a satirical commentary, informed by the whole project of using the dead as political props”.
“I’m not making a dime off the image, and never will attempt to do so.
“Given this lack of financial or other crass motives, other recent instances of the politicisation of the dead strike me as more morally questionable: the coffins of the victims of 9/11 showing up in a political advertisement, the continued suppression of images of the funerals of those lost in Iraq from the mainstream American media, and images of the 9/11 disaster in a campaign ad,” he says.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3652171.stm
SATIRICAL ?
(Lately, it seems lots of people are hiding behind that term.)
/// the loss of a true American Hero, Pat Tillman ///
You know what? He’s a true American hero. Hands down. RIP.
///Lately, it seems lots of people are hiding behind that term ///
Does that include moi? Me, I’m dead serious. But those who are giving me a hard time here are the ones who have become satirical. I offer you my opinion based on facts but all I get is “you’re an idiot”, “you’re full of shit”, “I screwed you wife”, or you’re this or that……. now how could I respond to these ridiculous insults without abandoning the issues which we were supposed to be talking about in the first place?
Hence, why do I write what I’ve written on this board.
National Survey of Iraq
Fourth Wave
Following the first ever nationally-representative survey of Iraq in October/November 2003, Oxford Research International is planning a third wave.
In Wave One, clients included the University of Oxford, a payment card company and a major public international broadcaster. The second wave ran with ARD, German Network TV, ABC News, New York, the BBC and Japan’s NHK. It produced global headlines. Building on the solid foundations of Wave One, corporate strategists and planners in NGOs now have an opportunity to gauge markets and social circumstances at an early phase of development of post-war Iraq. There is no comparable service offered by any other research organisation at this time.
Sampling
Oxford Research International plans to survey min. 2,500 respondents in all parts of Iraq.
Sampling will be based on a multi-stage random probability routine. Each stage will target administrative sub-units in the order of their size. Interviews will be allocated proportionate to population size (PPS). At settlement level, households will be targeted by random-route, random-interval procedures. Baghdad and Basra will be automatically included in the sample. All sampling is guided by the 2001 Statistical Abstract of Iraq (based on the 1997 census) and UN population data from January 2003.
Interviews and Quality Control
All interviews will be face-to-face in respondents’ homes. To ensure accurate targeting Oxford Research International operates a three call-back system and never replaces unavailable respondents within the same household. Oxford Research International will validate ca. 20% of all completed interviews (back-checks) and run elaborate checks on the data file (SPSS) to detect inconsistencies and emulated/fake interviews
Interviewers
All interviewers are educated at tertiary (university) level and have received 60 hours of intensive training by University of Oxford staff in fundamental ideas of social research, interviewing techniques, sampling, data analysis, etc. In addition all fieldworkers have completed ca. 85 interviews during Wave One
Management
All stages of the research process will be managed and supervised by Oxford Research International staff
University Support
Oxford Research International has secured the support of universities in Baghdad, Iraqi Kurdistan Region and Oxford (England)
The Questionnaire
The questionnaire will include ca. 60 variables plus demographic and socio-economic variables
Timing
Fieldwork is planned for May 2004. The data should then be available in June/July.
http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq.html
IRAQI POLL RESULTS:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3514504.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf
Perhaps you should create a mosaic of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians that Saddam tortured and murdered before they were liberated because of sound decision making on the part of our president. Whoever posted this picture is truly a sick human being; imagine how the families of those brave men and women feel about the use of their memories to make a political statement, an invalid one at that. American soldiers fight and die so that your right to express your opinions, however disgusting and intellectually dishonest they may be, is protected. God bless them.
>>my heartfelt thanks to President Bush, the epitome of a leader a man who is led by his beliefs not public opinion polls!
Bush is lead by his wallet and the wallets of the people who paid his way into office. The only thing he cared about liberating in Iraq was the oil.
///Perhaps you should create a mosaic of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians that Saddam tortured and murdered before they were liberated because of sound decision making on the part of our president. ///
Which president are you talking about? I don’t recall any president having Iraqi civilians ‘best interest’ in mind.
Not ‘Ray-gun’, not ‘daddy’, not Clinton nor Bush Jr…..
Why did ‘daddy’ failed in helping hundreds of willing Iraqi “freedom” fighters ready to topple Saddam at a moment’s notice right after the liberation of Kuwait? Where were the “Americans” when the Iraqis needed help the most? There were probably hundred of needless deaths right after the 91 Gulf war, all because of ‘daddy’s’ indiscretion. And now the son repeats itself. Can you tell me what EXACTLY is/ are the objectives of the war on Iraq 2003-04? Don’t tell me it’s getting rid of Saddam because that is NOT what was declared before the war…. only after we got ourselves into the mess that we had to produce “something” for the rest of the world in order to justify our stand. What about those WMDs? Do you want to talk about them? I don’t, as an American I’m ashamed of it too! What about fighting terrorism as an objective? Soldiers are fighting more Saddam loyalists than foregin terrorists like Al Queda in some of the heaviest fighting in Iraqi cities. We definitely know Bin Laden and other senior terrorist operatives are NOT in Iraq. What about bringing democracy and freedom to the Iraqi masses? Dad had failed them once and now junior cannot afford to failed them again. So it’s only logical why many Iraqis have an inherit mistrust against us. The polls doh!boy gave us shows my point. And like someone said before, time will tell if we had suceeded or failed. I would think we shall celebrate victory but not the kind of victory the pro-Bush crowd would like it to be (ie it will put a huge large dent in the economy).
>>Doh!Boy, about your poll…
70 % of Iraqis say things overall are going well for them
71 % expect their lives to improve over the next year.
54 % say their security is better now than it was before the war.
>>If you asked me that is fair rating but NOT GOOD ENOUGH. we’re supposed >>to bring democracy and freedom, do you think low 70s and 60s reflect >>what this mission should result? … (rant about Saddam & dragons)…
RESPONSE:
Not good enough? On what knowledge/facts do you base your opinion?
(military/political training ?)
What do you think the rates were WHILE SADDAM was in power?
>>What does that mean? That means whatever we’re doing now is only >>substandard, it means we failed …
RESPONSE:
This appears to be a VERY DEFEATIST ATTITUDE.
(or just political wrangling)
77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces.
( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative. )
>>So 80 percent is untouched is what you’re saying. And that’s ‘good’ >>news actually but I would think this has to do with military strategy >>and the advancement of technology than good o’ white house policy.
RESPONSE:
The POLL FOUND that the majority (77 %) of Iraqis had NO CONTACT with coalition.
(policy to to thwart feelings of occupation? )
US LED INVASION
48 % say US was right
39 % say US was wrong
13 % have no opinion
>>If you were to add 13 and 39 that comes out to 52, give or take 2 >>percentage points and you beat the 48 percent. Now I’m not saying I’m >>definitely right about this but to me it seems this poll is skewed to >>favor “US was right”…. again this is only speculative and I could very >>well be wrong. But I tend to think polls are published only when they >>are favourable to a certain outcome and thus not entirely unbias and >>accurate.
RESPONSE:
You may call it speculating .. but to be FAIR & UNASSUMING .. would you not need to evenly divide the unknowns? ( Right: 54.5 % to Wrong: 45.5 % )
I sincerely doubt the poll was/is intentionally skewed or “biased”.
( polling techniques: http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq.html )
ATTACKS ON COALITION
78 % say Unacceptable
17 % say Acceptable
>>Of course people are going to deny any involvement in the attacks. Why >>would you resist someone or something that is bigger, more powerful…
RESPONSE:
You seemed to have misunderstood this.
(It doesn’t have anything to do with “involvement”.)
The responses are about Iraqi attitudes toward coalition.
( 78 % do not endorse/favor attacks on coalition )
>>Comment by JOSEPH — Friday April 23, 2004 @ 9:04 pm
Iraq Anniversary Poll
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
I only wonder if the families were asked if they wanted their loved one on a political statmen. To me i find it sad that some one would use thir deaths in this way.
The same person posting as “Jake” also posted dozens of comments under several different names, mostly agreeing with himself. These fraudulent comments have been deleted. These comments included ones posing as soldiers and veterans.
IN RESPONSE TO POST 539:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Friday April 23, 2004 @ 9:57 pm)
“…Why did ‘daddy’ failed in helping hundreds of willing Iraqi freedom fighters ready to topple Saddam at a moment’s notice right after the liberation of Kuwait?…”
The UN granted permission to remove Saddam from Kuwait. (NOT FROM IRAQ)
Wasn’t Bush Sr. abiding by the UN & the will of the Arab coalition partners?
“…Don’t tell me it’s getting rid of Saddam because that is NOT what was declared before the war…”
Removal of Saddam became LAW/POLICY Oct. 07,1998
Public Law 105-338 (“The Iraq Liberation Act”) ( unanimously supported)
“…Iraqis have an inherit mistrust against us…”
You are somewhat right … After the 1991 backlash from Saddam, many Iraqis felt betrayed. (It’s now up to the US to GAIN/EARN trust.)
Going by the poll, I’m somewhat suprised by how much the Iraqis appear to trust us now.
“…What about those WMDs? Do you want to talk about them? I don’t, as an American I’m ashamed of it too!…”
“…Iraq declared that it had no biological weapons programme. When that claim was no longer tenable, Iraq provided a series of disclosure statements all of which have been found by international experts, on multiple occasions, to be neither credible nor verifiable…”
href=”http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/sres98-920.htm
“…We definitely know Bin Laden and other senior terrorist operatives are NOT in Iraq…”
Saddam supported terrorists. (support – $25,000 to families of “martyrs”)
Remember terrorist camp in Northern Iraq? (harbored)
Since when has the “WAR ON TERRORISM” ONLY included Al Qaeda?
(those who harbor & support … like the Taliban)
SADDAM COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS WAR
At anytime Saddam could have shown FULL COMPLIANCE to UN resolutions. (& ceasefire agreement)
To prevent war, Saddam could have left Iraq within the 48 hours given him.
Doh!Boy….. what do you want me to say? The war’s over is great, we won, we got victory, we shouldn’t say anything more about it! Is that it? Everybody’s happy…. the Iraqis, the soldiers, the international community, our citizens back home…. we should just forget about what I’ve been saying so far and throw a big huge party for everyone to celebrate! Afterall we won! We met our ‘objectives’ We got Saddam….. what more do we want? We couldn’t ask for more….. right?
Come on….. right?
I said right? Duh!Boy……. Why aren’t you celebrating? Why aren’t you in the party mood? Why am not I hearing or seeing anyone coming back from the Iraq tour, not a single person so far– not on this board or in real life, having celebrations and breaking out champaigns? Why are we, both the pro and anti-war crowd, in such a somber mood? We got victory…. we triumphed over evil and we got freedom and democracy, it’s basically a done deal! What are we complaining about? RIGHT?
Doh!Boy can you honestly agree on everything that has been just said? No? Why not? Are you saying we’re not done? Are you telling me we don’t have victory? When is this “victory” going to happen then? Is this ever going to happen?
Look, sure you can stick your polls and rub them right into my face…… and you have every valid right to be. I couldn’t refute those numbers even if I tried.
You response to me was very well thought out and when I have the time I’ll address them one by one. But overall, you ‘got me’ (so to speak).
Yet those are only numbers. And even if you put up those numbers for the Iraqis to see, they will continue to say they’re being “occupied” and if you asked them, not in a polling sense, but as a sit-down relaxed conversation, they would most likely indicate their dismay in the present situation rather than or more than just praise for what has gotton them. Of course the conversation would be regionally different and depends on where you are having that conversation, you are likely to get vastly different answers (Kurd’s happiness about their present situation versus Sunni’s unhappiness about their ordeal).
What’d you think? I think this is interesting.
///The same person posting as “Jake” also posted dozens of comments under several different names, mostly agreeing with himself. These fraudulent comments have been deleted. These comments included ones posing as soldiers and veterans. ///
Thank you Matt. I’m a member of SE meself btw… hehe
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH — Friday April 23, 2004 @ 11:10 pm )
“…Look, sure you can stick your polls and rub them right into my face and you have every valid right to be. I couldn’t refute those numbers even if I tried…”
The polls were to illustrate some of the views of Iraqis.
(Not to “stick” or “rub” anyone in anyway.)
I don’t see this as a political “gotcha” game.
IMO, the topic deserves REAL DISCUSSION.
The “mindless” slogans (and polictal wrangling) should be abandoned.
“…You response to me was very well thought out and when I have the time I’ll address them one by one. But overall, you ‘got me’ (so to speak)…”
I appreciate your kind words, BUT
you still appear to see the topic as a “game”.
Politics aside, PEOPLE are in harm’s way.
UNITED WE STAND ?
“American soldiers fight and die so that your right to express your opinions, however disgusting and intellectually dishonest they may be, is protected. God bless them.”
Uh, no they don’t, not in Iraq, which was not and would not be a threat to domestic American’s right of free speech. Quit tossing around that little tired chestnut; it’s true in very few cases when it comes to war. Us being nearly impregnable to a land invasion and all.
“I think its sick you used dead american soldiers to make a mosaic to make your point about Bush Couldnt you have found another way. THose very same men and women had respect for Bush and wouldnt like what youve done nor would they have appreciated your use of their pictures. I find this disgusting and low very low”
I suppose you feel the same about Bush’s use of 9/11 victims’ coffins for his political commercial? How arrogant, disgusting, and low very low to assume that a dead 9/11 victim would want his coffin used in a political ad supporting a particular candidate. Couldn’t they have found another way?
Latest on our oh-so diligant protection of Americans from WMD and WMD derivatives, and terrorist acquisition of same:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/16/iraq.nuclear.ap/index.html
“Some Iraqi nuclear facilities appear to be unguarded, and radioactive materials are being taken out of the country, the U.N.’s nuclear watchdog agency reported after reviewing satellite images and equipment that has turned up in European scrapyards.
…The United States has virtually cut off information-sharing with the IAEA since invading Iraq in March 2003 on the premise that the country was hiding weapons of mass destruction.
No such weapons have been found, and arms control officials now worry the war and its chaotic aftermath may have increased chances that terrorists could get their hands on materials used for unconventional weapons or that civilians may be unknowingly exposed to radioactive materials.
According to ElBaradei’s letter, satellite imagery shows “extensive removal of equipment and in some instances, removal of entire buildings,” in Iraq.
In addition, “large quantities of scrap, some of it contaminated, have been transferred out of Iraq from sites” previously monitored by the IAEA.
In January, the IAEA confirmed that Iraq was the likely source of radioactive material known as yellowcake that was found in a shipment of scrap metal at Rotterdam harbor.
…The IAEA has been unable to investigate, monitor or protect Iraqi nuclear materials since the U.S. invaded the country in March 2003. The United States has refused to allow the IAEA or other U.N. weapons inspectors into the country, claiming that the coalition has taken over responsibility for illicit weapons searches.”
Jesus, do some people need the word “incompetent” stamped on George Bush’s forehead to get the picture?
///The UN granted permission to remove Saddam from Kuwait. (NOT FROM IRAQ)
Wasn’t Bush Sr. abiding by the UN & the will of the Arab coalition partners?///
Yes the UN granted permission but the question remains, where were the Americans then? You grant permission to remove Saddam and then you don’t act. What does that say about ‘daddy’?
///Removal of Saddam became LAW/POLICY Oct. 07,1998
Public Law 105-338 (“The Iraq Liberation Act”) ( unanimously supported) ///
Ok you’re right in one sense but still wrong in the other. You’re obviously right because if that is true then the law is the law. I can’t refute that. However, did Bush Jr use that law as his main reason for going into the current war in Iraq? I’m pointing out the fact he was ambiguous in his original rationalization to go to war in the first place. One day is because we want to fight terrorism. Another might be to find WMDs. And yet another is for regime change. And further yet we want to install democracy to Iraq.
///You are somewhat right … After the 1991 backlash from Saddam, many Iraqis felt betrayed. (It’s now up to the US to GAIN/EARN trust.)
Going by the poll, I’m somewhat suprised by how much the Iraqis appear to trust us now. ///
Take a look at what my reponse is to Doh!Boy about his poll.
/// “…Iraq declared that it had no biological weapons programme. When that claim was no longer tenable, Iraq provided a series of disclosure statements all of which have been found by international experts, on multiple occasions, to be neither credible nor verifiable…”
href=”http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/sres98-920.htm ///
So we agree the administration made a mistake to use WMD as the objective for war.
///Saddam supported terrorists. (support – $25,000 to families of “martyrs”)
Remember terrorist camp in Northern Iraq? (harbored) ///
Hello? I said senior! I don’t deny Saddam had supported in his lifetime and certainly his regime’s lifetime those terrorist bastards. But if our sole objective for the war in Iraq was to eliminate terrorism then we’ve made the biggest mistake/ blunder since 911 or since the war on terrorism started. How could we have squandered bilions and billions on basically killing Iraqis (innocents and otherwise) just to get a handful of Al Queda operatives working in Iraq? Is as if you bought a gatling gun to combat your rat problems at home. It’s a waste of cash and energy…. not to mention the human toll cost. Deaths and injuries.
/// Since when has the “WAR ON TERRORISM” ONLY included Al Qaeda?
(those who harbor & support … like the Taliban) ///
And people say I write too much. Of course I know the war on terror doesn’t just merely include Al Queda or just Bin Laden and his pals…. I know terrorists are terrorists…. wherever they are and in whatever shape or form they are….. in fact please take a look at what I wrote on post #344 to Ryan. I hope that clear things up a little.
Look, the reason I just wrote Al Queda is because I don’t want to make a long list covering all that I can think of just to make some small point about terrorism. I would think you’re intelligent enough to know what I meant by terrorists.
/// SADDAM COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS WAR
At anytime Saddam could have shown FULL COMPLIANCE to UN resolutions. (& ceasefire agreement)
To prevent war, Saddam could have left Iraq within the 48 hours given him. ///
No shit. I know your mother must be female. It’s a given and if you think that counters whever arguments I’m making, you’re just a bit slow in the head than I thought.
Look, what’s mere 48 hours to anyone…. let alone Saddam? If you had the biggest most powerful military muscle, the creme de la creme of authority, already spending billions on troops and equipment and planning etc etc, and they are just right at your doorstep ready to wipe you off the face of the earth. What do you think Bush would’ve done if Saddam were just lose everything and basically give up his own life? We NEEDed to fire at least one bullet to make this “campaign” worthwild! It’s all about economics. In order to spend military cash, we needed a war, we needed to fire at something, we needed to start the engine of the tanks, we needed to fly those planes in order to spend that money. We know darn well Saddam’s not going to have a choice in surrendering given the ridiculously short amount of time, 48 hours…. He wouldn’t know where to go…. he couldn’t go anywhere…. he loses the moment he is out of power– because at the very least he could fight (by that I mean his regime standing ground for him) and hope for a miracle. In fact that is what happened. But in the end he loses. Yet this is brilliantly done by Bush’s camp, being able to spend that cash and get their prize. It’s absolutely brilliant! Unfortunately the rest of us “naive” public pays for that “game” not only with our own pockets but robbing our conscience about what really this is about– which is politics, nothing but a poltical strategy from the administration’s point of view, because a miltary victory or a war victory will no doubt boost Bush’s chance for re-election and not only re-election, it will boost his power to the nth degree and basically do whatever he wishes with no regard to accountability. Look at our current policy on Palestinian- Israeli conflict….. we are basically saying to the Palestinians, the hell with you all. And Arafat was a guest to Camp David, what, a year or two ago?
/// UNITED WE STAND ? ///
If standing means Bush is out of the picture (no pun intended)- then yes
/// Politics aside, PEOPLE are in harm’s way. ///
How many times do I have to tell you guys this is not about politics….. I don’t endorse politcs, I don’t endorse Kerry nor any political party for that matter. You vote whatever the hell you want. I only give you my opinion and an opinion unfortunately that is not favourable to Bush. I don’t deny that. But Bush has only himself to blame for my opinion…. not the dead soldiers fighting for us in Iraq an elsewhere…. not you Doh!boy, not Jake not anyone but Bush and his administration to blame for my stance or what you guys often call “ramblings” or “bullshit”
Got it?
You are the one who should leave those dead soldiers alone. I don’t address them to form my opinion about issues so how would/ could I disrespect them is frankly a mystery to me. You guys put words in my mouth, you guys use insults against me and my words…. everything negative you said about me is made up by you.
I offered everyone to prove to me that I am this or I am that…. but nobody would take that challenge because it is garbage in the first place! I’ve been stupid to even address them in the first place. I should’ve left Jake’s and others comments alone. I know I shouldn’t have bothered.
But I don’t think it’s too late to refresh and restart this baby.
Did you ever ask their families how they felt about using these pictures to state your “opinion”? did every family want their lost love ones on here? Like it or not it Iraq needed to be done, and it should have been done in 98. like it you not you state this is political by your rant about Bush in the post when you are saying it’s not. I find it odd that no one cares about the people who serve dieing till they have a political message. the people who serve are in harms way every day, hundreds are killed in training every year. No one wants to die but thats the risk of traing to use weapons and defend freedom.
Doh!Boy, let me get a little bit more in detail of your response of the polls,
/// Not good enough? On what knowledge/facts do you base your opinion?
(military/political training ?)
What do you think the rates were WHILE SADDAM was in power?///
I based my opinion on being plain o’ self! Look, I’m an American and I live in America all my life, I know what is freedom and democracy. I know exactly what it is. And if you asked me and my fellow countrymen with the same polling questions, I guarantee you we get a much much higher result….. ie,
things overall are going well– at least in the range of 90s
expect their lives to improve– at least in the range of 90s
security is better– at least in the range of 70-90s
Again these are just speculative but I would think they aren’t too exaggerated to be invalid….
Now Iraq is not America…. I know that BUT then what are we fighting over there for? For, that’s right, bringing democracy and freedom to the country of Iraq. To the people who, in theory, should be able to enjoy the SAME kind of democratic freedom as you and I am enjoying now! In theory (all else and extremities aside) then, Iraqis should be 99.99 percent happy about their present situation…… I say that because they go from basically nothing but chains around their ankles to freedom and opportunity like never before…. ever…. so they should be extremely happy…… ie, 99 percent approval rating or the “good enough” reason I talked about earlier.
Getting the idea now?
/// This appears to be a VERY DEFEATIST ATTITUDE.
(or just political wrangling) ///
If and only if you think what I said earlier, /// If you asked me that is fair rating but NOT GOOD ENOUGH/// and /// do you think low 70s and 60s reflect what this mission should result? /// are valid or what you believe as well then I just don’t see anything defeating about my feelings nor am I playing politics because if the fact is not good enough, then it is not good enough….. doesn’t matter how I feel about it.
/// The POLL FOUND that the majority (77 %) of Iraqis had NO CONTACT with coalition.
(policy to to thwart feelings of occupation? ) ///
Like I said if they had no contact with coalition because of modern technology…. they just need to drop a 500 pound bomb over a target from 200 miles away for example versus bringing an entire legion of troops to the same target, meaning they need to cross and interact and come in contact with hundreds and hundred of civilians along the way…. yet like I said before, public sentiment is a curious thing…. even if you show these Iraqis that you meant them no harm, they still think you’re “harming” them or “occupying” their space…. tons of news coverage nowadays support my belief. People will always be suspicious of governments and that cannot be more true of the US government…. the rest of the world can really testify to what I mean.
/// You may call it speculating .. but to be FAIR & UNASSUMING .. would you not need to evenly divide the unknowns? ( Right: 54.5 % to Wrong: 45.5 % )
I sincerely doubt the poll was/is intentionally skewed or “biased”.
( polling techniques: http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq.html )///
First off thank you for showing me your references on the polls. They are what makes the polls a bit more respectable. You think it’s biased but like I said before, I must respectfully disagree.
Look, hear me out. Assuming I’m correct about the bias, then the “wrong” numbers must be deliberately cut short to make the bias. Therefore, the “no opinion” numbers must be the missing ones that had been taken out from the “wrong” numbers in the first place. And we need to only add those numbers together to put back what was originally intended– the 52 percent.
Of course to be fair, it could very well be skewed the other way. Making the “right” more favourable than first thought.
But you’re wrong about dividing them evenly…. because it wouldn’t prove this “theory of bias” if we were to add EVENLY to both the “right” and “wrong” values.
ie, “right” is already leading the pack and if you add to the same value of number (doesn’t matter how much at this point) as to the “wrong”, which is a bit behind in the first place… then the position of both categories will remain the same or unchanged- thus no bias was ever intended.
look it another way,
if we split 13 evenly which = to 6.5
and we add 6.5 to “rights” category AND “wrongs” category
48 + 6.5 = 54.5
39 + 6.5 = 45.5
Only both category’s numbers changes bigger, the ratio between them or the the ratio of percetage points between them remains unchanged. No biases intended.
The same thing happens if you add any number to both categories ‘evenly’.
Alright? Got it?
/// You seemed to have misunderstood this.
(It doesn’t have anything to do with “involvement”.)
The responses are about Iraqi attitudes toward coalition.
( 78 % do not endorse/favor attacks on coalition ) ///
If it’s only attitudes then I’ve explained my position on that one. Re-read above.
I’m sorry Brad but you’ll have to skim over every post I made here… I’m too tried to address your post. I’m sure I made a post or two somewhere addressing exactly what you said. Go search for it if you really want my answer.
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 12:13 am
RESPONDING TO MY POST: Comment by DoughBoy – Friday April 23, 2004 @ 11:41 pm)
Yes the UN granted permission but the question remains, where were the Americans then? You grant permission to remove Saddam and then you don’t act. What does that say about ‘daddy’?
The UN resolution stated REMOVAL OF IRAQI FORCES FROM KUWAIT.
(The resolution DID NOT ALLOW OUSTING SADDAM FROM IRAQ.)
Bush Sr. followed the UN despite crys from the US to get Saddam.
BTW: The US held back from entering Kuwait … to allow Arab coalition partners to enter first. ( To allow them to save face? )
…did Bush Jr use that law as his main reason for going into the current war in Iraq?…So we agree the administration made a mistake to use WMD as the objective for war.
No. The whitehouse made a decision based upon the information they had at the time.
(Clinton, Kerry, Bush, UN, & Global Intell – ALL cited WMD threats)
The Iraqi Liberation Act (1998) illustrates US policy.
(If you read it – you’ll see that the US found Iraq to be a THREAT)
UN 1441 ALSO stated Saddam was a THREAT.
P.L. 107-243 (H.J.Res. 114). To Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq. Authorized the President to use armed force to defend the national security of the United States against the THREAT posed by Iraq and to enforce all relevant U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq. (Became public law: October 16, 2002)
…I don’t deny Saddam had supported in his lifetime and certainly his regime’s lifetime those terrorist bastards. … How could we have squandered bilions and billions on basically killing Iraqis (innocents and otherwise) just to get a handful of Al Queda operatives working in Iraq?
So we agree Saddam dealt with terrorists?
(Reportedly, Iraqi documents have been found in Afghani caves)
How many people could a “handful” of Al Qaeda terrorists kill with a WMD attack?
(“conventionally”, 19 terrorists killed 3000)
…I know the war on terror doesn’t just merely include Al Queda or just Bin Laden and his pals. I know terrorists are terrorists. wherever they are and in whatever shape or form they are…
So you use the term “Al Queda” as a generic term for ALL terrorists?
No shit. I know your mother must be female. It’s a GIVEN and if you think that counters whever arguments I’m making, you’re just a bit slow in the head than I thought…
So we agree? SADDAM should have complied or left the country to enjoy “his” billions of dollars.
(I bet Russia, France, or Syria would have taken him.)
…Look, what’s mere 48 hours to anyone. let alone Saddam? …
What do you think Bush would’ve done if Saddam were just lose everything and basically give up his own life?…
Saddam had billions of Iraq’s money, he COULD HAVE SPARED the Iraqis and vacationed the rest of his life. (Saddam ALWAYS kept large amounts of cash around)
http://www.forbes.com/2000/06/22/feat.html
…We NEEDed to fire at least one bullet to make this “campaign” worthwild! It’s all about economics. In order to spend military cash…
(ranting)…he loses the moment he is out of power– because at the very least he could fight…
The Iraqis fled the battlefield in 1991 (also in 2003) …
Don’t you think Saddam knew that would happen?
UNITED WE STAND ?
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 12:33 am )
I ONLY GIVE YOU MY OPINION and an opinion unfortunately that is not favourable to Bush. I don’t deny that. But Bush has only himself to blame for my opinion. not the dead soldiers fighting for us in Iraq an elsewhere. not you Doh!boy, not Jake not anyone but Bush and his administration to blame for my stance or what you guys often call “ramblings” or “bullshit”…
YOUR OPINION might be more persuasive if you were to base it on facts.
( Provide CREDIBLE sources/links to why you opine the way you do )
Your Ad Hominem (name calling) attacks just belittle whatever shot at reasoning you attempt.
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 1:42 am)
…Iraqis should be 99.99 percent happy about their present situation…
You appear to be “at odds” with some of your previous posts.
FROM:
Comment by JOSEPH – Wednesday April 21, 2004 @ 11:56 am
The cost of that failure is the mistrust and “hatred” towards the west but Americans in particular from the Iraqi masses…
AND FROM:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Friday April 23, 2004 @ 9:57 pm )
So it’s only logical why many Iraqis have an inherit mistrust against us. ..
So in YOUR OPINION, are the Iraqis supposed to be happy while mistrusting the US?
Iraq Anniversary Poll
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
How poll is conducted:
http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq.html
Iraq Anniversary Poll
70 % of Iraqis say things overall are going well for them
71 % expect their lives to improve over the next year.
54 % say their security is better now than it was before the war.
77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces.
( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative. )
US LED INVASION
48 % say US was right
39 % say US was wrong
13 % have no opinion
ATTACKS ON COALITION
78 % say Unacceptable
17 % say Acceptable
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
Poll was conducted for ABCNEWS, ARD, the BBC and NHK by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England
http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq.html
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
IRAQI BLOGs:
http://www.iraq-iraqis.blogspot.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
/// So in YOUR OPINION, are the Iraqis supposed to be happy while mistrusting the US? ///
NO, NOT ‘while’…..
Look, contrary to what most of you haters here believe, I want the BEST for my country. I want the BEST for America.
And that means I want the war in Iraq to suceed. I want the Iraqis to be happy, to prosper, to enjoy freedom and democracy just like I am enjoying right now.
Yet the reality is our historial record in terms of having the Iraqi masses’ best interest in mind, is shady at best! From ‘Ray-gun’s’ era of allying with Saddam to ‘Daddy’s’ failure to help what was a golden opportunity (hundreds of unnecessay deaths by Saddam’s goons right after the Gulf doesn’t make up any blame for EU, UN or otherwise) To Clinton’s inaction on top of useless sanctions, which makes it seem like hiding the problem than facing it. And now the blunder in the current war on Iraq (the death toll, on both sides, is not subsiding anytime soon)
Now you tell me, if you were in the shoes of an Iraqi over there, would you trust the “Americans”? Would you be happy about your present situation?
I want the Iraqi to trust us, but I understand perfectly why they don’t….. YOU seem not to understand that.
///77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces.
( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative///
That means that more than 6 million Iraqis had an encounter with coalition forces!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Know what you’re saying!!!!!!!!
/// YOUR OPINION might be more persuasive if you were to base it on facts.
( Provide CREDIBLE sources/links to why you opine the way you do )
Your Ad Hominem (name calling) attacks just belittle whatever shot at reasoning you attempt ///
You know what? I do apologize for calling you Doh!Boy but you must realize you’re just about the ONLY “hater” here (or those who hates my guts for some reason or hates what I’ve been saying on the board) who isn’t attacking me for who I am but giving me a valid exchange of ideas on the issues. Yet it seems at first I misjudge your sincerity towards wanting to discuss these issues seriously– if you had a chance to take a look at the exchange I had with Jake or Kimmie or some other brat who just doesn’t make any sense at all… and if you talk to them not only once and but again and again and again (the option of ignoring isn’t an option since if I stop talking to them they say I’m a “chicken” or that I lie or I can’t back that up etc.) you’ll get frastrated too! So I hope you understand why I’m being quite defensive or I seem to be unfriendly in my remarks especially in recent posts.
As for providing credible sources and links….. I always say go to your local library and learn the history yourself…. of just pay a little bit more attention on current events or just use plain o’ common sense. I’ve been an advert news program watcher since high school…. and not just from TV, newspaper and the net too. And besides show me ONE thing that I’ve said that needed sources and links? The ones that are purely my opinion I say so or I would put out a disclaimer and say “I’m unsure if I’m 100% correct on that”…. For instance, if I say Iraqis tend to mistrust us– are you going to tell me that is not true? Are you going to tell me they trust us with no uncertainty? Are you going to use your polls to tell me otherwise? Can you honestly tell me the trust between Iraqis (generally) and Americans has the same degree as between the British and Americans? What about yourself? Do you trust the Iraqis? It’s a valid question because trust goes both ways…. that’s why you make friends with someobdy or call someone a friend– because you trust them. Can the “polls” prove that? Can any sources or links? Don’t you think it’s a bit redundant?
Again you must understand. I not here to bash America. Perhaps bashing the president but definitely NOT towards the country or towards my fellow countrymen/ women.
If you still can’t see that then I guess it’s too bad really.
America and Israel is the New al qaeda and Taliban in the modern world. Israel armed with Zionist protocol, and USA with ‘Project New America’ project is bent on taking overall the world in stealthy manner, just as hitler began his anti jewish campain in stealth. America says it believes in democracy, yet Yasser Arafat a democratly elected president is being ignored by USA. USA says it wonts to stop spread of WMD, yet its letting Israel have them and develop them. USA wants to wage war on ‘terror’, yet it hides behind heavy fortified bunkers in iraq and lets all the troops from poor countries to their dirty jobs. USA is contradiction, everything Bush says, he later contradicts with actions. USA stands for mass murders, double standards, opression, slavery, genocide. America no longer stands for the values it once stood for. America today is about building an empire in stealth using terms like ‘america is democracy loving nation, it stands for freedom, it stands for rights of people, it stands for peace and justice’, all those things are nothing but lies.
adam from UK
It’s a sad day when people will use the images of dead American’s to make a picture as a political statement.
It doesn’t influence me to lose my support of President Bush and the War on Terror.
Don
/// The UN resolution stated REMOVAL OF IRAQI FORCES FROM KUWAIT.
(The resolution DID NOT ALLOW OUSTING SADDAM FROM IRAQ.)
Bush Sr. followed the UN despite crys from the US to get Saddam.
BTW: The US held back from entering Kuwait … to allow Arab coalition partners to enter first. ( To allow them to save face? ) ///
Was it you who talked about politcal wrangling? or somebody else? But anyway tell me what results in the end– hat truly matters here. THE IRAQI PEOPLE! Are they better off because “Daddy” complied with UN rules? Should they feel better and sleep better at night because “Daddy” did everything he could short of saving their own lives or saving some of their own body parts getting severed? I’m not only pointing my fingers at only one administration. Clinton is just as worse if not worser.
Get a clue, citizen! You’re a citizen of the world, not just within a land with borders, we call America. The Iraqi living in Baghdad IS your family, IS your friend…. it’s call human compassion. It’s called caring for others. We pour bilions into this military machine that does a half-ass job… and frankly only a small part of the same billions are spent on helping with the so called “reconstruction”…. if we did have the Iraqi people’s best interest in mind then whatever we spend on the military campaing should match the same amount towards humanitarian aid– the cost of war so far 162 billion (The cost of war: One year on, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3603923.stm ) and counting now if you just come up with another 162 unconditionally just for the Iraqi citizens themselves…. I would say then the war is worth it. Getting rid of Saddam doesn’t do them any good if they remain in poverty and in substandard living– what’s freedom and democracy in a getto? It’s going to hurt our pocket books NO doubt… but if we really want to do the honorable thing and the “right” thing, we can’t just do a half-ass job…. regime change is only half the work the other half or reconstruction, the most important one I would say is going to be long and hard. WE, me and you, must pay the price for it in owe to the Iraqi people. You might say they can depend on their own oil economy to deal with their own cost of reconstruction. But it shouldn’t be our choice of making the decisions for them. It’s their choice of whether or not to use those oil profits for thier own advantage and to develop their own economy. If they’re smart folks, they should just abandon those oil reserves and find other ways of developing their own economy without depending on “dirty” money…. or to satisfy the greed of Bush and his friends in the oil business with more “winfall”. Besides, the need for reconstruction is urgently needed right now this very minute, and waiting for the oil economy to get developed takes months if not years….. and nobody can go without food and shelter for that long.
/// No. The whitehouse made a decision based upon the information they had at the time.
(Clinton, Kerry, Bush, UN, & Global Intell – ALL cited WMD threats)
The Iraqi Liberation Act (1998) illustrates US policy.
(If you read it – you’ll see that the US found Iraq to be a THREAT)
UN 1441 ALSO stated Saddam was a THREAT.
P.L. 107-243 (H.J.Res. 114). To Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq. Authorized the President to use armed force to defend the national security of the United States against the THREAT posed by Iraq and to enforce all relevant U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq. (Became public law: October 16, 2002) ///
Might as well ask me for donations to the Republican campaign! Of course these “Acts” and “Laws” and formalities are going to be presented to the public and to the international community as a whole before the war…… Of course you’re going have to need “them” to make a case in order to have any chance of going into war. You know damn well you should present a case that is at least decent and “sellable”. That is why Bush used WMDs and any other thing he could think of just to get this war started. Whether or not they are true and valid is another question. But ‘selling’ is one thing, selling at the price of Iraqi lives and our soldiers’ lives is just, to me, unacceptable! Can you honestly tell me you’re confortable with that? That you’re fine with what Bush has done to us and to the Iraqis?
/// So we agree Saddam dealt with terrorists?
(Reportedly, Iraqi documents have been found in Afghani caves)
How many people could a “handful” of Al Qaeda terrorists kill with a WMD attack?
(“conventionally”, 19 terrorists killed 3000) ///
Yes Saddam dealt with terrorists and like I asked before, should we use deadly force to deal with these terrorists knowing darn well it’s not only their lives that we’re going “end” but hundreds and thousands of Iraqis lives, who have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism? Well are we justified doing that? Iraq is not Afghanistan. It is not a place of the “wild west”, Iraq is a civilized modern country. Their cities are just like our cities. They have schools, business buildings and other modern amenities that is very similar to the US. The anology of going to war against Iraq is as if we are going to war against France for example…. Baghdad, like Paris, is going to jeopardize the lives of millions of civilians, not in mud huts or “jungle” setting but in modern urban setting. Throwing a 500 pound bomb into Iraq is not the same as throwing the same bomb in Afghanistan.
I guess the bottom line is to ask yourself, does the end justify the means? And looking at our different opinions on things, I would say to each his own.
///So you use the term “Al Queda” as a generic term for ALL terrorists? ///
Sure. Just as you are ambiguous about the word “terrorists” from this statement of yours, /// So we agree Saddam dealt with terrorists?///
Are you talking about Saddam harboring the IRA or Al Queda? …..Give me a break! Shessh!
/// So we agree? SADDAM should have complied or left the country to enjoy “his” billions of dollars.
(I bet Russia, France, or Syria would have taken him.) ///
And end his life, as he knows it for over 30 years now, in an instant? I don’t think so. Not a chance. I told you he’s nothing but a coward and he’ll stall however long it would take to avoid capture or losing everything…. until the very last moment. Do you think he had the best interest of the Iraqi people in mind? No! He wants to use them as shields to save his ass! In fact you know what? If my memory serves me right, I think Saddam wanted to negoiate with Bush after the war broke out for a few days….. since he knows darn well he’ll lose the war, I think he wanted to surrender and go into exile….. but of course Bush refused since the money is already rolling with the tanks and bombers and stopping the battles then would not be “economical”.
/// Saddam had billions of Iraq’s money, he COULD HAVE SPARED the Iraqis and vacationed the rest of his life. (Saddam ALWAYS kept large amounts of cash around)
http://www.forbes.com/2000/06/22/feat.html ///
Giving me the link to the rich people web site doesn’t mean anything. Like I said, Saddam’s a f–king coward and he have absolutely no regard for his own subjects. You have to think about what his situation back then was like and what that moment of 48 hours was like for him, what’s the best option, in his mind, he could’ve took to hold off his own demise– whether that’s his own phyical body or his own power that he had or his wealth etc etc.
And I can only go so far here. YOU have to ask him what he was thinking at the time. I’m NOT him.
/// The Iraqis fled the battlefield in 1991 (also in 2003) …
Don’t you think Saddam knew that would happen? ///
Then tell me why didn’t flee? Since you’re such an expert on him. What the point for staying in Iraq then? You say I’m wrong with my assessment…. what about you? I’ve said enough anyways.
///…Iraqis should be 99.99 percent happy about their present situation…
You appear to be “at odds” with some of your previous posts. ///
If you’re going to f–king quote me, quote the whole f–king thing!!! Do you know WHY I said “Iraqis should be 99.99 percent happy about their present situation”? Tell me please. If you can’t then that mean YOU have no f–king idea to what you youself is talking about, since I clearly stated my position from that post.
I’m not at odds with my thinking. It’s just that you’re taking out little phrases to suit your own biases. It’s the reason why I wrote the statement that is important, NOT just the statement itself.
Got it Doh!Boy? No? then go ahead and reread this,
/// How many times do I have to tell you guys this is not about politics….. I don’t endorse politcs, I don’t endorse Kerry nor any political party for that matter. You vote whatever the hell you want. I only give you my opinion and an opinion unfortunately that is not favourable to Bush. I don’t deny that. But Bush has only himself to blame for my opinion…. not the dead soldiers fighting for us in Iraq an elsewhere…. not you Doh!boy, not Jake not anyone but Bush and his administration to blame for my stance or what you guys often call “ramblings” or “bullshit” ///
Got it? Ok?
Liberals; You people make me sick. Thanks to people like you & crap like this website. This war on terror will take a long time to win. We should wipe out the terrorist in our own country as well as overseas!! If we want to win. You liberals GIVE the ISLAMIC wacko’s fuel for their fire. Just like JOHN KERRY & HANOI JANE did in nam. Your either for us or against us JOHN KERRY as president ? GOD HELP US. Defeat Terrorism Defeat Liberalism. LIBERALS ARE TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/// Defeat Terrorism Defeat Liberalism. LIBERALS ARE TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ///
Don’t tell me what it is. Tell me HOW? How are you going to defeat terrorism? Branding everyone in the world with either “terrorist”, “muslim” or “liberal” stamp and create genoicde against them? Is that it? Burn all the mosque in America… is that it? Burn all democratic offices around the country…. is that it? Short of doing those things I don’t see how we can defeat these “terrorists”, “muslims” and “liberals”
/// Defeat Terrorism Defeat Liberalism. LIBERALS ARE TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ///
Don’t tell me what it is. Tell me HOW? How are you going to defeat terrorism? Branding everyone in the world with either “terrorist”, “muslim” or “liberal” stamp and create genoicde against them? Is that it? Burn all the mosque in America… is that it? Burn all democratic offices around the country…. is that it? Short of doing those things I don’t see how we can defeat these “terrorists”, “muslims” and “liberals”
US Soldiers killing the innocent children, women, old men…Snipers open fire to the ambulances who try to save the lives of the wounded…(I thought that USA was there to save the people or not?) US forces bombing the mosques and killing the innocent local people whose intention is only to practice their religious belief. (Uppsss I thought that you guys were saying in your national currency “IN GOD WE TRUST” Am I mistaken?)…. Two men, one aged about 70, the other about 50, both shot in the forehead, in an area controlled by the US. Two man lying dead in front of their house, because the family did not dare step outside to retrieve the bodies. (Guess why? Are they afraid of the tyranian Saddam regime?)
US is there just to get out of the worst economic recession of the history since the 30’s. Those soldiers who were brought there with order of the world’s existing biggest TYRANT (Mr.BUSH) are killing the local people just to have the ownership of the energy resources… And looking in to the eyes of the world people they still can say that they invaded IRAQ just for democracy and world peace.. So is this how you maintain the democracy?… Don’t make me laugh… TO THE HELL THESE MODERN TYRANTS OF THE MODERN AGE… Poor Iraquis, poor US soldiers who are just brought there with the orders of these tyrants poor soldier families… THEIR SONS ARE DYING IN THE DESERT JUST TO FEED THE GREEDY STOMACHS OF THESE TYRANTS…
SOURCE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3653223.stm
Have you no SHAME?
“Liberals; You people make me sick. Thanks to people like you & crap like this website. This war on terror will take a long time to win. We should wipe out the terrorist in our own country as well as overseas!! If we want to win. You liberals GIVE the ISLAMIC wacko’s fuel for their fire.”
Whoa, back up a moment there–if you want to wipe out terrorists in our country and are going to throw generalities around based on a few terrorists religion or race, you’d better be citing Christian, Conservative, and/or White wacko’s too for your great wiping out.
Atlanta Olympics bombing: White American
Oklahoma City bombing: White Christian Conservative Americans
Unabomber: White American
Anthrax letters: Probably white American
Abortion clinic bombings: Mostly white Christian Conservative Americans
Lynchings, rapes, killings of blacks and homosexuals: White Americans, mostly Christian and Conservative
Tree spikings, destruction of animal testing facilitiies: Mostly white Americans, and finally for your premise, liberal
Finally, Islamic terrorists: Radically conservative
Like most you’ve ignored domestic terrorist acts over the last 30 years because the perpetrators didn’t offer you a nice easy group to generalize and hate; as soon as “Muslims” or “Arabs” join the wide variety of terrorist bastards you immediately target them and only them for your derision, and for some odd reason try to tie a lack of “wiping them out” to liberalism. Here’s a clue: a decent liberal (about as many of those as decent conservatives I admit) will have a two-prong wipe-out attack on specifically anti-US terrorism derived from Middle East angst. First, military forceful attacks on established terrorists, while following the guidelines of the Geneva Convention and international standards of engagement. Second, attacking the root of the problem by massively altering our foreign policy in the ME to not continually screw over its people by supporting folks like Hussein and Musharref, and by dealing more evenly with Israel-Palestine. All the conservatives seem to do is the former, and guess what? That will never stop new generations of US-haters based on crap-ass foreign policy from joining or creating new terrorist groups. The “plan” of GW is an simplistic neandertalic plan–reminds me of the carnival game where you have to keep trying to smash groundhogs that pop up with a mallet. The plan that will actually solve anti-US terrorism for the long term (and for the most part), is taking apart that game beneath the surface and fixing the works so the groundhogs stop popping up altogether.
I guess you conservatives can continue to lament that our army just isn’t big enough to invade, occupy, and regime change 180 other countries at once though. Too bad, if it did your “plan” may have actually worked!! Heck, go ahead and blame the liberals for this!
“Damned liberals screwed up our military and now we can’t kill everyone in the world. Dammit!”
IN RESPONSE TO: (Comment by some1 – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 9:16 am)
///77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces. ( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative///
That means that more than 6 million Iraqis had an encounter with coalition forces!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Know what you’re saying!!!!!!!!
Actually if you take 33% of 25,000,000 it would be 5,750,000. (NOT more than 6 million) I expect the Pollsters know what they are saying.
IN RESPONSE TO:(Comment by JOSEPH – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 9:17 am )
You kno what? I do apologize for calling you Doh!Boy but you must realize you’re just about the ONLY “hater” here …
I accept your “apology”. (It would mean MORE if you hadn’t called me a “hater”.)
IN RESPONSE TO: (Comment by JOSEPH – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 10:50 am )
/// The UN resolution stated REMOVAL OF IRAQI FORCES FROM KUWAIT. (The resolution DID NOT ALLOW OUSTING SADDAM FROM IRAQ.)
Bush Sr. followed the UN despite crys from the US to get Saddam. BTW: The US held back from entering Kuwait to allow Arab coalition partners to enter first. ( To allow them to save face? ) ///
Was it you who talked about politcal wrangling? or somebody else? But anyway tell me what results in the end hat truly matters here. THE IRAQI PEOPLE! Are they better off because “Daddy” complied with UN rules?
Political wrangling? Is it not historically true?
Didn’t you previously say:
As for providing credible sources and links.. I always say go to your local library and learn the history yourself.
Time to go to the library?
UNITED WE STAND ?
IN REPSONSE TO:
(Comment by DoughBoy — Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 2:26 pm )
Yes … I’m responding to myself….
The response to (Comment by some1 – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 9:16 am)
should have read 23% not 33%
TYPO
PRESIDENT BUSH RANKS LOWEST IQ IN 50 YEARS OF US PRESIDENTS.
The Lovenstein Institute of Scranton, Pennsylvania, detailed its findings
of a four-month study of the intelligence quotient of President George W. Bush.
Since 1973, the Lovenstein Institute has published its research to the educational
community on each new president, which includes the famous “IQ” report among others.
There have been twelve presidents over the past 50 years, from F.D. Roosevelt to
G.W. Bush, who were rated based on scholarly achievements, writings that they
produced without aid of staff, their ability to speak with clarity, and several other
psychological factors, which were then scored using the Swanson/Crain
system of intelligence ranking.
The study determined the following IQs of each president as accurate to within five percentage points:
In order by presidential term:
147 .. Franklin D. Roosevelt (D)
132 .. Harry Truman (D)
122 .. Dwight D. Eisenhower (R)
174 .. John F. Kennedy (D)
126 .. Lyndon B. Johnson (D)
155 .. Richard M. Nixon (R)
121 .. Gerald Ford (R)
175 .. James E. Carter (D)
105 .. Ronald Reagan (R)
098 .. George Bush (R)
182 .. William J. Clinton (D) – twice as smart…
091 .. George W. Bush (R) – or just a half wit.
The six Republican presidents of the past 50 years had an average IQ of 115.5, with President Nixon having the highest at 155. President G.W. Bush rated the lowest of all the Republicans with an IQ of 91.
The six Democrat presidents had IQs with an average of 156, with President Clinton having the highest IQ, at 182. President Lyndon B. Johnson was rated the lowest of all the Democrats with an IQ of 126. No president other than Carter (D) has released his actual IQ, 176.
Among comments made concerning the specific testing of President GW Bush, his low ratings are due to his apparently difficult command of the English language in public statements, his limited use of vocabulary (6,500 words for Bush versus an average of 11,000 words for other presidents), his lack of scholarly achievements other than a basic MBA, and an absence of any body of work which could be studied on an intellectual basis. The complete report documents the methods and procedures used to arrive at these ratings, including depth of sentence structure and voice stress confidence analysis. “All the Presidents prior to George W. Bush had a least one book under their belt, and most had written several white papers during their education or early careers. Not so with President Bush,” Dr. Lovenstein said. “He has no published works or writings, which made it more difficult to arrive at an assessment. We relied more heavily on transcripts of his unscripted public speaking.”
The Lovenstein Institute of Scranton Pennsylvania think tank includes high caliber historians, psychiatrists, sociologists, scientists in human behavior, and psychologists. Among their ranks are Dr. Werner R. Lovenstein, world-renowned sociologist, and Professor Patricia F. Dilliams, a world-respected psychiatrist.
More soldiers, much less civilians, have been killed since the start of this dirty little oil war than were killed by the same point during Vietnam. therefore, if trends continue, more soldiers will be killed in Iraq than were killed by the end of Vietnam. I would also like to see a montage of images of all of the Iraqi civilians laid over Bush’s image.
For those who harp about a fight for freedom, this ain’t it. It is about oil and money for Bush buddies. How interesting that we only “fight for freedom” in those places where we can make a buck by taking theplace over. Shortly after this slaughter began, I saw photos of dead Iraqis. the one that tore me apart was a father lifting the dead body of his young daughter, ripped to shreds, legs and feet missing, covered on blood, from a charnal heap of bodies. If I were that father, I would hate us too.
Challenge to those who say Iraq is better off now that Saddam is gone: How many people were killed in the last year of his reign? How many in the past year? the number is much much higher.
Premediated and cheap shot.
This February Rod Paige, President Bush’s Secretary of Education, called America’s largest teachers union a “terrorist organization.” That kind of sick distortion alone should disqualify him from being our nation’s top education official.
But the truth is Rod Paige’s comments are only the most obvious example of a “slash and burn” national education policy. Financial aid and open access to higher education has been a primary target of the Bush administration. Once again, Bush is sacrificing our future for his short-term interests, and as parents of present and future college students it’s time we demand some accountability.
Go to this link to demand that President Bush fire Rod Paige:
http://www.firepaige.org/index.asp?ms=cba
Here’s a summary of Bush and Rod Paige’s record on higher education:
Pell Grants are the most important federal aid program to disadvantaged students. Bush promised to raise the maximum Pell Grant scholarship by over 25%. However, the Bush team hasn’t even *proposed* such an increase. Pell grants now cover only 15% of private tuition and 38% of public tuition (down from an average of 80% in 1975.)
And in 2003, Bush proposed cutting $270 million from Pell Grants — cutting off help for about 84,000 students.
In 2001 Bush and Rod Paige launched a campaign to deny all federal education assistance for students with any drug related convictions in their lifetime. To date, Paige has successfully prevented approximately 54,000 young people, trying to use education to build a better life, from going college.
Bush and Paige’s proposed 2005 education budget will either slash or freeze vital federal assistance, including Pell Grants, Perkins Loans, Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grants, and Federal Work Study.
While cash for the war in Iraq and massive tax breaks for millionaires flows freely, George Bush and Rod Paige are penny pinchers on education. And all this from the self proclaimed “Education President.”
— Source1: http://www.clickbackamerica.org
— Source2: http://www.firepaige.org
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by T. Jefferson – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 2:49 pm )
LOVENSTEIN INSTITUTE IS AN URBAN LEGEND
I thought you’d like to know …
your “story” is a just that .. a story.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bliq-bush.htm
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm
BOGUS WEBSITE:
http://www.lovenstein.org/report/
WHOIS INFO
http://reports.internic.net/cgi/whois?whois_nic=lovenstein.org&type=domain
Site Created On:07-Aug-2001
The Lovenstein Institute
Lovenstein Plaza
Scranton, PA 18503
webmaster@lovenstein.org
ph 570-555-1212 (FAKE)
Address AND phone number are FAKE.
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by Dr Dan – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 3:21 pm )
Challenge to those who say Iraq is better off now that Saddam is gone:
How many people were killed in the last year of his reign?
How many in the past year? the number is much much higher.
I don’t know what your basing your statement on … (link?)
BUT let’s try to figure this out …
Saddam came into power (as Iraqi “president”) on July 18, 1979.
Let’s say his power ended in mid March 2003.
This would make his reign approximately 23 years & 8 months.
(23 * 12) + 8 = 284 months as Iraqi “president”
Reportedly, Saddam’s death tolls of Iraqis
range between 250,000 to 1 million.
1,000,000 / 284 months = 3,521 (average per month)
250,000 / 284 months = 880 (avg. per month)
Translating monthly to daily (using LOW) >>
880 / 31 = 28.387 >> round down
>> 28 deaths per day on avg.
Translating monthly to daily (using HIGH) >>
3,521 / 31 = 113.581 >> round up
>> 114 deaths per day on avg.
IN CONTRAST:
Reportedly, Coalition death tolls of Iraqis
range between 8,918 to 10,769.
10,769 / 13 months = 828 (avg. per month)
8,918 / 13 months = 686 (avg. per month)
Translating monthly to daily (using LOW) >>
686 / 31 = 22.129 >>
rounding up >> 22 deaths per day on avg.
Translating monthly to daily (using HIGH) >>
828 / 31 = 26.709 >>
rounding up >> 27 deaths per day on avg.
COMPARISONS:
Saddam High vs. Coalition High
114 vs. 27 (per day on avg.)
Saddam Low vs. Coalition Low
28 vs. 22 (per day on avg.)
DISCLAIMER:
Granted, these numbers are but estimates.
(But they do tend to show your claim as
possibly being faulty.)
IF you have a CREDIBLE source …
I would appreciate a link to such.
TIA
URBAN LEGENDS AND FOLKLORE POLL: G.W. Bush’s IQ
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bliq-bush.htm
Would you be surprised to learn that G.W. Bush has a lower IQ than previous presidents?
Yes. (26,029) 45%
No. (29,204) 51%
Ask me about Clinton’s. (1,953) 3%
Total Votes: 57,186
URBAN LEGENDS AND FOLKLORE POLL: G.W. Bush’s IQ
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bliq-bush.htm
Would you be surprised to learn that G.W. Bush has a lower IQ than previous presidents?
Yes. (26,029) 45%
No. (29,204) 51%
Ask me about Clinton’s. (1,953) 3%
Total Votes: 57,186
Doh!Boy,
/// — Was it you who talked about politcal wrangling? or somebody else? —
Political wrangling? Is it not historically true?
Didn’t you previously say:
As for providing credible sources and links.. I always say go to your local library and learn the history yourself.
Time to go to the library?
UNITED WE STAND ? ///
Did I ever say anything about your “Laws”, “Act” or whatever the hell you quoted from the original as being false or untrue? How about this then, stupid, your quotes on the Laws and Acts ARE true facts, I don’t deny them, but at the same time the fact of the matter is they are ALSO liable for “political wrangling”….. why? because the info you give me,
/// No. The whitehouse made a decision based upon the information they had at the time.
(Clinton, Kerry, Bush, UN, & Global Intell – ALL cited WMD threats)
The Iraqi Liberation Act (1998) illustrates US policy.
(If you read it – you’ll see that the US found Iraq to be a THREAT)
UN 1441 ALSO stated Saddam was a THREAT.
P.L. 107-243 (H.J.Res. 114). To Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq. Authorized the President to use armed force to defend the national security of the United States against the THREAT posed by Iraq and to enforce all relevant U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq. (Became public law: October 16, 2002) ///
Plays right into president Bush’s favor to go to war against Iraq. And especially the “P.L. 107-243 (H.J.Res. 114)” which if you look at the date, 2002, is exactly around the time when Bush was trying so hard to push his own agenda (ie, going to war against Iraq) and basically neglected everything else that should’ve been taken care of– the real fight against terrorism or the domestic economy among many issues!
Are we clear?
Sometimes YOU need to think on your own….. don’t just rely on articles and materials to ‘think for you’! Another advice from moi.
And you know what? I don’t need to go to the library, YOU are the library.
/// UNITED WE STAND ? /// ……to go against the Bush administration, of course! I’ve reserved a space for you to stand beside me, come on.
btw,
/// Actually if you take 33% of 25,000,000 it would be 5,750,000.
(NOT more than 6 million)
I expect the Pollsters know what they are saying. ///
It’s called basic math. It’s call ’rounding’.
The number in question is 5,750,000
you round up from 5 to 6 because the digit (the number 7 in this case) being rounded is greater than or equal to 5
therefore, 6,000,000 is correct
Have you forgotten how it felt that day??? (9-11) This mosaic looks like someone is blaming George Bush for the soldiers death. Why not a mosaic of Bin Laden??? He’s the criminal here.
Why isn’t this mosaic on top of Clinton. He’s the one who left things so screwed up that we ended up in a war in the first place. IF Clinton had done something about it you’d be screaming for a fourth term now having given him a third already!
/// Why isn’t this mosaic on top of Clinton. He’s the one who left things so screwed up that we ended up in a war in the first place. IF Clinton had done something about it you’d be screaming for a fourth term now having given him a third already! ///
Hear hear! But you haven’t gone far enough. I say we make a mosaic of Reagan, Bush Senior, Clinton and Bush Jr together! Actually let’s make the mosaic the map of America– j/k
What’s sad is, while right now there are about 3 times as many photos as there are dead soldiers, in a few more months’ time, those two numbers will be the same I bet.
I know there used to be a time when war was only fought when necessary- when we had a real reason to fight, and we did so with honor. Those of you who defend the Commander in Chief and the honor of the military would do well to remember that WE NO LONGER LIVE IN THOSE TIMES! We have nothing but respect for your predecessors’ and the spirit in which they and you serve, but that spirit, that willingness to fight and die for the country’s good, that spirit has been ABUSED!
Now we turn against other nations for disagreeing with us, we spit on the UN and the President spits on his Congress when they dare protest him. Now we send these men and women – who enlisted to DEFEND us – to die for OIL. To die for MONEY and POWER that will be concentrated in the hands of men so greedy that not even spilled blood satisfies their thirst.
What honor is in a death like that? To blast a mother’s son into his component molecules so that a black line on a ledger can be a little bit higher, that a stock quote can have that little “up” arrow next to it, that a rich man gets richer?
We send them to die “for freedom” but who is free? We are NOT free at home, not when the Patriot Act exists, not when there are spies in our bedrooms and bank accounts! We are NOT free when we fear every other living being on the planet! When you look at an Iraqi child, and see not a child but a terrorist that must be imprisoned, WHO IS THE PRISONER? YOU ARE THE PRISONER! You are a prisoner of FEAR!
WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF?
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 7:09 pm )
///…P.L. 107-243 (H.J.Res. 114). To AUTHORIZE the Use of United States Armed Forces AGAINST IRAQ. Authorized the President to use ARMED FORCE to defend the national security of the United States against the THREAT posed by Iraq and to enforce all relevant U.N. resolutions regarding Iraq. (Became public law: October 16, 2002) ///
Plays right into president Bush’s favor to go to war against Iraq. And especially the P.L. 107-243 (H.J.Res. 114) which if you look at the date, 2002, is exactly around the time when Bush was trying so hard to push his own agenda (ie, going to war against Iraq)…
BOTH houses of Congress found SADDAM TO BE A THREAT.
To use your phraseology; “Deal with it!” … They did.
(Bush is an evil genius/mastermind?)
Are we clear?…
AS MUD. ( your favorite projectile? )
Sorry … I couldn’t resist. (due to your ad hominems)
🙂
Sometimes YOU need to think on your own.. don’t just rely on articles and materials to ‘think for you’! Another advice from moi…
My Advice: Start reading & researching for yourself. (As I do) Try original sources like un.org (UN) or doe.gov (Dept. of Energy). Don’t just “parrot” something you’ve seen or heard from TV/press.
And you know what? I don’t need to go to the library, YOU are the library…
That was almost a compliment…
😉
…
I changed 33% to 23% as it should have been
/// Actually if you take 23% of 25,000,000 it would be 5,750,000. (NOT more than 6 million) I expect the Pollsters know what they are saying. ///
It’s called basic math. It’s call ’rounding’
The number in question is 5,750,000
you round up from 5 to 6 because the digit (the number 7 in this case) being rounded is greater than or equal to 5
therefore, 6,000,000 is correct
Please reread the post.
It said MORE THAN 6,000,000…
HOW can anyone round 5,750,000 to MORE THAN 6,000,000?
One might read with a little more care?
As for your “attack the intellect” strategy, I find it has NO MERIT.
MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA
just remember all you who value what humanity demands- the price for freedom is eternal vigilance…
as such, people will fight; and some wil die so that many will live. To put this into perspective, please reference the deathe tolls from WW1 and 2- 100’s, even 1000’s, are nothing in comparison to the previous wars; realize that in war, people WILL die- theirs, ours, ….
as for all you naysayers, if it weren’t for patriotics like forefathers who didn’t wuestion, you would not be able to seat your pasty faced little ass in a seat of non-conformity to deny and degrade all that we have strived for (and accomplished) in the last 200 years as a nation. I have one example to lay credence to the necessity of our precendence (and the hopefully the next action) in the middle east- since WW2, has their been a potential recurrence of war between the U.S. and Japan since the bombing? I think since the event I am refering to, both parties realize the worth and significance of human life. Perhaps it is time to educate the middel east in this matter (manner)?!?
/// BOTH houses of Congress found SADDAM TO BE A THREAT.
To use your phraseology; “Deal with it!” They did.
(Bush is an evil genius/mastermind?) ///
Both Houses passed so what? Are you telling me somehow because the democrats approved of the ‘reasoning for war’ or rather the fact that Saddam was a threat that automatically makes me jump right into their (or should I say Liberal) bandwagon, that I blindly follow whatever rhetoric they preach?
How many times I’m going have to repeat myself????? How the f–k do you people come up with labeling me (and indirectly inferring is just as bad as calling me straight up) as liberal or democrat by merely criticising president Bush? Even Pat Buchanan has criticsed him in the past, does that make HIM a liberal? WTF! Give me a break!
Deal with what? My position still stand. It hasn’t changed from your weak but persistent attempts to say otherwise.
/// Bush is an evil genius/mastermind?/// Are you yanking my chain? If so then I got nothing to say, I’ve said enough about this. If not then good for you…. you finally at least realised Bush is exactly how you described him.
/// Sorry � I couldn’t resist. (due to your ad hominems) ///
And now you have your own ad hominems, welcome to the club, idiot! 😉
/// My Advice: Start reading & researching for yourself. (As I do) Try original sources like un.org (UN) or doe.gov (Dept. of Energy). Don’t just “parrot” something you’ve seen or heard from TV/press. ///
Me parrotin’ something? Yeah rrrrright! Other than that one link I gave you about the $ cost of war in Iraq, I’ve never ‘parroted’ anything….. not as much as your-royal-parrot-self, ie, almost every post you’ve written here so far is consist of either some stupid article links making some irreverent points or stupid weak polls that tells me little to nothing about what the issues are really about!
And why would I want to research something I already know the answer to? Why would I want to research for something that is impossible to find? How do you research for materials that vindicate Dubya’s clumsiness/ failure? YOU go ahead and research that shit! You just can’t!
Go ahead and stand up for a jackass, that’s what you’re really doing pal!
BTW what’s the difference between me posting a link to a respectable journalistic-media website like the bbc and your links to UN.org or DOE’s website? Are you telling me that somehow you’re superior because of it? Good god you like to stick it anywhere you see fit with no regards for intelligence nor modesty….
/// That was almost a compliment�///
That WAS a compliment! Can’t you tell? I gave you plenty of compliments and you never appreciated me~ tisk tisk!
/// Please reread the post.
It said MORE THAN 6,000,000�
HOW can anyone round 5,750,000 to MORE THAN 6,000,000?
One might read with a little more care?///
Hey you know what, you’re right, my bad….. I guess I never really cared about a little numbers game you and the other guy are playing around so serious. That’s right… go ahead and argue for your right to correctly interpret those polls, 5,750,000 is it? Hence, saying “more than 6,000,000” is definitely going against the will of god and thus that dude who says it must be wrong and therefore he is a numbers-heretic…. punish him!
You win Doh!Boy (another compliment for ya) congrats!
/// realize that in war, people WILL die- theirs, ours, …. ///
Now why can’t Bush be the one 6 feet under….. Clinton for that matter? (see I’m not pro-democrat either)
IN RESPONSE TO: (Comment by JOSEPH – Sunday April 25, 2004 @ 12:53 am)
Both Houses passed so what? Are you telling me somehow because the democrats approved of the ‘reasoning for war’ or rather the fact that Saddam was a threat that automatically makes me jump right into their (or should I say Liberal) bandwagon, that I blindly follow whatever rhetoric they preach? How many times I’m going have to repeat myself????? How the f–k do you people come up with labeling me (and indirectly inferring is just as bad as calling me straight up) as liberal or democrat by merely criticising president Bush? Even Pat Buchanan has criticsed him in the past, does that make HIM a liberal? WTF! Give me a break!
WHO is politically “labeling” you? If by chance I’ve politically “labeled” you, show me the post. Personally, I don’t care what your political affiliation is. BUT… from your posts… you seem to think everyone labels you a liberal/democrat.
(It appears you are starting to border on being paranoid.)
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by AnimatyrSatyr – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 11:46 pm )
>>as such, people will fight; and some wil die so that many will live. To put this into perspective, please reference the deathe tolls from WW1 and 2- 100’s, even 1000’s, are nothing in comparison to the previous wars; realize that in war, people WILL die- theirs, ours,<< Although sad, you make a good point. And as you suggest, I'll research those who have fallen.
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by AnimatyrSatyr – Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 11:46 pm )
>>as such, people will fight; and some wil die so that many will live. To put this into perspective, please reference the deathe tolls from WW1 and 2- 100’s, even 1000’s, are nothing in comparison to the previous wars; realize that in war, people WILL die- theirs, ours, >>
Although sad, you make a good point.
And as you suggest, I’ll research those who have fallen.
AnimatyrSatyr your #574,
/// as for all you naysayers, if it weren’t for patriotics like forefathers who didn’t wuestion, you would not be able to seat your pasty faced little ass in a seat of non-conformity…. ///
And I’ll stop right there because it’s interesting that you use the word “non-conformity” or non-conforming because are you telling me that America, the beautiful, the freedom country, the democratic country, essentially the very meaning of what a democracy should be is preaching the need to conform? Basically are you telling me that it is our duty and obligation to conform to the ‘majority’ or whatever is ‘popular’ of the day?
Hummm that sounds awfully like something I’ve read in the history books. Ah! I remember now…. 1949, the year when Mao spearheaded the Chinese Communist Party and established the People’s Republic of China.
Now I ask you, do we need to limit or even suppress individuality or independent thought through an imposition on the individual to conform to society, satisfying the idealistic notion of sacrificing the individual in favor of the collective? Is that what you want to do AnimatyrSatyr? Is that what you would like to see America do?
Are you telling me that by not conforming to whatever’s the popular opinion is and in my case, criticising the president is as unpopular as it gets here or just take a look at all the criticisms direct at one simple mosaic artwork, that me and that artist who created the mosaic are somehow treacherous, disloyal, unpatriotic and not worthy of being in this country?
Come on now! Think about it!
Yet if you really think like that then I got nothing to say. I couldn’t argue with you further.
The Chinese model can easily be applied here and on this country…. when there are enough of “you-s” out there to change the very essence of what America is about, then what you’ve said,
/// ….to deny and degrade all that we have strived for (and accomplished) in the last 200 years as a nation. ///
is going to happen. No doubt about it.
/// since WW2, has their been a potential recurrence of war between the U.S. and Japan since the bombing? I think since the event I am refering to, both parties realize the worth and significance of human life. Perhaps it is time to educate the middel east in this matter (manner)?!? ///
Huh…. what happened to the phrase “never again”? What happened to that phrase probably repeated by your own grandparents or parents who lived in those times to tell us about it? Oh sure, we can easily drop two big ones right smack in the middle of the entire region and everything’s not going to be the same again. Mind you, the world today is not the same as it had been during your parents or grandparent’s days. Atomic technology is as common as cruise missles and ICBMs and many countries got them in their arsenal and even smaller hostile groups can easily get their hands on them if they try hard enough. And once US uses it anywhere in the world, the cat’s out of the bag and every country and every terrorist group and every bad and good guy for that matter, will scramble for the same or similar technology ALL in the name of defence— NK would immediately change their placid state to one of highly agitated and the threat of first strike (against SK or even an attack on the continental US) would be very real and horrifying! Since little’ Kim would no doubt not wanting to take any chances and strike us first before we can say “regime change”….. and what would be more scarier than that scenario is for terrorists like Bin Laden or BL-like terrorists to actually acquire that kind of technology and use it against us (with all the justification on his holy war of jihad because afterall we would’ve striked muslim o’ plenty middle east first) …..I wouldn’t want to wait around to see how that would transpire tho.
/// WHO is politically “labeling” you?
If by chance I’ve politically “labeled” you, show me the post.
Personally, I don’t care what your political affiliation is.
BUT … from your posts .. you seem to think everyone labels you a liberal/democrat.
(It appears you are starting to border on being paranoid.) ///
Then what the hell’s the meaning of you saying /// BOTH houses of Congress found SADDAM TO BE A THREAT. ///
I never asked for anyone to question my own political affiliation….. so what has ‘BOTH houses’ got to do with what I’ve said originally? You seem to imply that I should take away the blame from Bush and smear it on the democratic side or at least lighten the blame-load to give your precious Jr president some breathing room. Not a chance!
And if you still deny it then tell me why you said ///BOTH houses of Congress found SADDAM TO BE A THREAT. /// What’s does that have to do with what I say?
everyone does realize that nobody reads down this far, so your post won’t be read unless you’re just sniping with someone else , right?
Of course we support and yearn over our troops. Knee jerk reactionary flag wavers should bother to read and think about the reasons we, the USA, were attacked and are still threatened and hated by more people every day.
The Muslims resent our military bases in Saudia Arabia, their holiest of lands. We should get out. Our support of Israel despite the fact that that country illegally occupies land that belongs to the Palestinians is the other major thorn in the side of the Islamic world. Think about it. Would we want to have the Nazis or any other nation occupy any of our land? No wonder we are hated. Such hubris and arrogance provokes war against the USA.
It’s a shame that people are so disrespectful of the President and the efforts he has taken to safeguard both our country and our service personnel. We are in a war to safeguard the innocent around the world, to insure that savage sneak attacks like those against our country never happen again, and take every effort to protect those brave men and women in uniform. To those who state that the President hasn’t attended the funeral of even one serviceman killed in action – which one would you like him to go to? And what should be said to the rest of the families whose son or daughter died and he can’t go? And what answer shall be given to the nation when asked “why are you spending all your time doing that and not dealing with the war and issues at home?
President Roosevelt is waiting for your answers…. and he thanks you for your kind thoughts during this time of war.
i have read a lot of comments like whate about photos of pepole died in 9/11 and pepole killed by Sadam
My comment is this a normal result of american policy, all those killed people should be added under Bush
Both Von Sponek and Dennis Halliday, both former chiefs for the UNs Oil for food program, said that US and UK sanction policy was a genocide and that US and UK was responsible for blocking food, medicine and equipment provided to repair and purify the water supplies that UK and US constantly destroyed with bombs (violating the Geneva convention). Now, who are you going to believe- Bush and Bliar- or these gentlemen who both resigned after over 30 years work for UN because they didn´t want be a part of a genocide? And (and this is the crucial point) how are you going to convince the Iraqis that the serial liars -Bush and Bliar- are telling the truth but these gentlemen are lying. Would you consider, lets say an Iraqi regime that killed about six million US children (considering that US has a population thats about 11 times bigger then Iraq) as liberators if they invaded USA? Let´s face it -the Iraqis hate you and they have good reasons to do so! If you want a time line and the history of Iraq follow the link and learn!
I wonder how many pictures of dead Iraqis since last year could make up a map of the US. Could never find that many photos.
This page looks messed up… But anyway, check this out.
/// This page looks messed up… But anyway, check this out. ///
When I click on that link, the pictures.. the way it was presented reminded me of 911. But instead of terrorists responsible for their deaths, Bush is (largely).
Too bad the resolution keeps getting better. Good luck keeping up with it.
Everyone of these brave soldiers where Proud to serve this President and the American people back home. Re-Enlistment is higher than expected even among those who have gotten wounded in action. God bless those who serve proudly while cowards back home undermine their efforts and the presidents.
Strange Bedfellows:
US Contractor in Iraq Helped Fund Al Qaeda
by Laura Rozen
One reason the Bush Administration gave for going to war in Iraq was Saddam Hussein’s alleged ties to terrorists. So it is ironic that one of the partners in a big Iraqi firm being used by US contractors in Iraq is also a founding partner in an organization that’s been identified as helping fund Al Qaeda. So far, however, neither the government nor the contractors have shown much concern.
Sadoon Al-Bunnia is one of three principals in one of Iraq’s oldest companies, the Al-Bunnia Trading Company. The Iraqi firm has become a major subcontractor for US firms working under US government contracts in Iraq. But, as documents obtained by The Nation from the Lugano office of the Swiss Federal Commercial Registry show, Sadoon Al-Bunnia is also a founding partner of a Swiss-registered firm called the Malaysian Swiss Gulf and African Chamber (MIGA), which the US government and the United Nations Security Council have designated as funders of Al Qaeda.
MIGA is one of fourteen businesses controlled by Ahmed Idris Nasreddin and Youssef M. Nada. Then-Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill said in an August 29, 2002, news release that businesses in the Nasreddin-Nada network “appeared to be providing a clandestine line of credit to a close associate of Usama bin Laden and as of late September 2001, Usama bin Laden and his Al Qaida organization received financial assistance from Youssef M. Nada.” (Attempts to reach the Al-Bunnia Trading Company in Baghdad were unsuccessful.)
Asked about the Al-Bunnia-Al Qaeda connection, Treasury spokesman Taylor Griffin said the law is unambiguous. “The basic story is this: MIGA was designated, Al-Bunnia was not,” said Griffin. By “designated,” Griffin was referring to the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists compiled by Treasury’s Office of Foreign Assets Control. American individuals and firms are prohibited from doing business with any person or organization on the list. “Certainly [Al-Bunnia’s] association with MIGA should raise some due diligence concerns,” Griffin said. “But it is not necessarily wrong for a US company to do business with him, and it is certainly not illegal.”
Agreeing with that assessment is Bechtel, which signed up the Al-Bunnia Trading Company as its first Iraqi subcontractor to work on the reconstruction of Iraq’s Al Mat bridge. “Al Bunnia was vetted through the [US-led Coalition Provisional Authority],” Bechtel spokesman Howard Menaker said in an e-mail. “During the background investigation, there was nothing found that indicated we could not work with Al Bunnia. Further, there were additional informal discussions with other individuals and advisors to us but again nothing indicated wrong doing nor that we would be precluded from doing business with Bunnia.” Another firm with close ties to the White House that’s angling to help clients win Iraq contracts, GOP lobbyist Haley Barbour’s New Bridge Strategies, proudly announces on its website that its local partner in a consortium bidding on a contract is “led by the Al-bunnia family who are a leading commercial group in Iraq with over 80 years experience in Iraq.”
To be sure, who gets put on Treasury’s “terrorist” list is not exactly a strict science, legal experts say. Georgetown law professor David Cole notes that “groups are designated behind closed doors, in a secret process, without any notice, without any hearing and even without any substantive criteria for what counts as a Specially Designated Global Terrorist. It’s just a term the Bush Administration made up.” Nonetheless, it does seem odd that the US government cares so little about its own efforts to break the chain of Al Qaeda’s financing. But then, the boondoggle that is postwar Iraq appears to operate under a different logic from that used by the Administration to justify the war.
Laura Rozen is a journalist who covers national security issues from Washington, DC.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1025-03.htm
ter-ror-ist (ter’er-ist): noun
1: One who engages in an act or acts of terrorism.
2: One who leads an armed group that kills civillians as a means of political intimidation – unless he terrorizes while on the CIA payroll, as did Haitian death squad leader Emmanuel Constant, in which case the US refuses to extradite him to Haiti.
3: One who targets civillian airliners and ships – unless he blows up a Cuban civillian airliner, killing 73 people, and fires at a Polish freighter, like Orlando Bosch, in which case he is paroled by the Bush Justice department and his extradition is blocked.
4: One who leads a group that engages in kidnapping and murder – unless the victims are Hondurans attacked by CIA-backed death squad battalion 316, in which case Battalion architect Gustavo Alvarez becomes a Pentagon consultant.
5: One who uses rape and murder for political purposes – unless the victims are four US churchwomen sexually assaulted and killed in 1980 by members of El Salvador’s US-backed military, in which case excuses and distortions pour forth from UN Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick (“these nuns were not just nuns; they were political activists”) and Secretary of State Al Haig (the nuns “may have tried to run a roadblock.”)
6: One who designates civillians as “soft targets” to be attacked in the cause of political transformation – unless the targets are Nicaraguans killed by Contra guerillas armed and directed by the US
7: One who facilitates a massacre of civillians – unless the victims are 900 Palestinians shot and hacked to death in the Sabra and Shatila camps by Lebanese Christian militia as Israeli soldiers stood guard.
The preceeding was taken from an essay by Jeff Cohen, nationally syndicated columnist, Crossfire cohost, News Watch panelist, and MSNBC commentator.
It’s not the actions of our country that upset me – it’s the hypocrisy of our foreign policy, supporting terrorist groups when politically convenient and abandoning them when their usefulness has run out. Remember, it was Reagan who sold the Iranians the explosives used in the Marine Barracks bombing in Libya, it was Reagan who sold Saddam the chemical weapons he used to murder his own citizens, it was Reagan who trained Osama Bin Laden to be a terrorist. I wonder how many of the conflicts we’re now sending troops overseas to die in could have been prevented if Reagan had just NOT armed dangerously-unstable radical Islamic groups back in the eighties. And it was some neo-con poster who said that it’s us liberals who never consider the long-term effects of our actions? There’s that “history” thing again, rearing up to bite you in the ass.
I READ ALMOST ALL OF THE COMMENTS AND I STILL HAVE A QUESTION THAT REMAINS UNANSWERED… CAN SOMEONE TELL ME PLEASE:
1. WHERE ARE THOSE CHEMICAL AND NUCLEAR BOMBS THAT IRAQ WAS SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING?
2. WHERE IS THIS MONSTROUS TERRORIST CONNECTION THAT SADDAM HAD WITH 9/11 ? WHERE IS THE PROOF THAT MAKES SADDAM AND IRAQUIS GUILTY OF 9/11?
3. WHAT ARE THOSE U.S. SOLDIERS DOING THERE? IF IT IS AN ACT AGAINST A TYRAN WHY IS U.S. STILL THERE? DIDN’T THEY CATCH HIM? WHY ARE THEY KILLING INNOCENT WOMEN, CHILDREN, OLD MEN? WHY ARE THE U.S. SOLDIERS BOMBING THE HOLY PLACES? IS THIS A WAR AGAINST ANOTHER CULTURE AND RELIGION? IS THIS THE MODERN CRUSADE?
4. WHAT IF ANOTHER COUNTRY COMES TO U.S. AND TRIES TO FREE (!) THEM, LIKE THEY FREE (!) VIETNAM, PANAMA, IRAQ? WOULD AMERICAN PEOPLE WELCOME THESE FOREIGN SOLDIERS? WOULD THEY CLAP THESE PEOPLE WHEN THEY BOMBE THEIR CHURCHES, KILL THEIR CHILDREN, WOMEN AND OLND MEN? WOULD THEY THANK THAT COUNTRY IF THEIR BELOVED ONES BRAIN WAS SMASHED WITH A SNIPER BULLET?
5. IS THERE ANYONE HERE WHO CAN STILL DEFEND THIS MASACRE THAT U.S. IS DOING?
Best regards…
In post #583 Glenna said “The Muslims resent our military bases in Saudia Arabia, their holiest of lands. We should get out.”
Our military cannot leave Saudi Arabia. Remember, this was the only solid political demand that Osama Bin Laden made to justify his attacks on the United States. We cannot leave!
But Wait! Now that the “fog of lost news” is clearing, I remember that the real reason that the United States military cannot leave Saudi Arabia is that they are no longer there. They relocated to Iraq, Quatar and Kuwait and now there are no military forces remaining in Saudi Arabia.
Does anybody else remember news when it is older than the last news cycle? It seems like our resolute “War President” has already caved-in to the terrorist demands. Nobody has called our “War President” on this! It’s like nobody in the United States want to remember this. But let me tell you, the people in the rest of the world know this and they see the mismatch in American rhetoric and American actions and they are no longer favorably impressed with the United States.
Stay online and read English versions of foreign newspapers. Then ask the questions that need to be asked. If you are afraid of translators, then read British, Australian and Canadian newspapers. Then ask the questions that need to be asked.
You might as well save your breath. All these little blogie-queer boyz are the same. They see life from behind a keyboard where the world is beautiful and everyone deserves free ice cream. They know nothing about the real world. Their only goal in life is to rub all the butts in their little clique’s.
“Oh Dave Shea you’re the best, no no Scott Andrew you’re the best, here’s some pics from my little lunch between Eric Meyer and Tantec…we were joined by zeldman who was kissing Steve Champion who was stroking Simon Willisons rump. I just couldn’t get over those great drop shadows from that sexy Dunstin, who has been stalking
Dan Cederholm who has been sleeping with that gay Russell Beattie who just had dinner with that fat idiot from siBlog…The best part though was when Dive into Mark came over and told all about his addictions…..and next week we’re all going to a really cool CSS conference in Dallas, I think Dave Winer got us a back stage pass to see God..
..AKA Eric Meyer.”
I thank you the recent posters for some of the most insightful comments for a change, hear hear!
We’ve made the same kind of picture,
But we have not so many ‘pixels’, cause we made the poster in October. We’ve used only 274 pictures.
We’ve made a playcard, the Joker, with it.
Joker.
PIEK!
This is a beautiful picture. This just goes to show how heroic those men were, they risked their lives to save others. And just think, there are more out there willing to fight for our country. What a beautiful thing.
Wow. What a powerful picture. Thanks for posting it.
Ok, I think understand what Bush mean with democracy. Iraq is going to have freedom to lie about other countries WMD (etc) and have the freedom to occupy these countries. Because that’s what democracy is all about, Of course Iraq is not entitled to take other countries oil- that’s undemocratic- unless US does it – then its democracy.
Wars HELL and I hate it, Vietnam VET !!!!
I find it apauling that some of you use the word “only” when talking about death. It’s like saying oh well thats not as bad as say 2,000 deaths. Each one of those who have died for our freedom had a life beyond. Their families are mourning the loss of their loved one while many are celebrating that we have this number of deaths. Saying we have ONLY 500 600 deaths is like saying that the ozone layer is ONLY 50 percent destroyed. We are still being damaged by the rays of sunlight , just as we are still being hurt by the deaths of our soldiers. PS. I like that you have made a mural, I don’t like that it is of President Bush..maybe rethink it..make the picture into the American Flag ..or a peace sign or something along those lines.
I feel sad thinking about families of US soldiers who died but I feel even more sad when I imagine about the multiplier factor for counting Iraqi men, women & children who are killed by US army.
I wish Bush abondon his father’s mission & leave world in peace.
IN RESPONSE TO: (Comment by JOSEPH – Sunday April 25, 2004 @ 2:39 am )
“… /// WHO is politically “labeling” you?
If by chance I’ve politically “labeled” you, show me the post.
Personally, I don’t care what your political affiliation is.
BUT … from your posts .. you seem to think everyone labels you a liberal/democrat.
(It appears you are starting to border on being paranoid.) ///
Then what the hell’s the meaning of you saying /// BOTH houses of Congress found SADDAM TO BE A THREAT. ///
I never asked for anyone to question my own political affiliation.. so what has ‘BOTH houses’ got to do with what I’ve said originally? You seem to imply that I should take away the blame from Bush and smear it on the democratic side or at least lighten the blame-load to give your precious Jr president some breathing room. Not a chance!
And if you still deny it then tell me why you said ///BOTH houses of Congress found SADDAM TO BE A THREAT. /// What’s does that have to do with what I say? …”
Either you have MISUNDERSTOOD again …
OR possibly you are politically wrangling.
CONGRESS IS COMPOSED OF TWO HOUSES … THE SENATE and THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES .. (BOTH FOUND SADDAM TO BE A THREAT)
HOW is that politically labeling? (It appears you are ARE being paranoid.)
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by Glenna – Sunday April 25, 2004 @ 3:13 am)
“..The Muslims resent our military bases in Saudia Arabia, their holiest of lands. We should get out. …”
This is very true. UBL has cited the Saudi Arabia base as a sacrilege.
Last I heard, this base was to be shutdown.
Now that the Iraq no-fly zones don’t exist, the base isn’t needed to patrol the nfz’s.
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by US war on Terra – Sunday April 25, 2004 @ 8:14 am)
“…Let´s face it -the Iraqis hate you and they have good reasons to do so!…”
Iraq Anniversary Poll
70 % of Iraqis say things overall are going well for them
71 % expect their lives to improve over the next year.
54 % say their security is better now than it was before the war.
77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces.
( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative. )
US LED INVASION
48 % say US was right
39 % say US was wrong
13 % have no opinion
ATTACKS ON COALITION
78 % say Unacceptable
17 % say Acceptable
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html
Poll was conducted for ABCNEWS, ARD, the BBC and NHK by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England
http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq.html
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
IRAQI BLOGs:
http://www.iraq-iraqis.blogspot.com/
http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
As an american soilder myself,I can say that my heart truly goes out to those who have fallen in this fruitless war.I was intially for going into Iraq,because I was led to believe that the state was a threat to the U.S.To simply say I’ve changed my views is an understatement.regardless what is put out in the media I can tell you from personal experiance,after doing a 1 year tour in Iraq that the only reason the U.S. is still there is to secure a permant “hand in the cookie jar” when it come to the oil in Iraq.
Iraq Anniversary Poll
70 % of Iraqis say things overall are going well for them
71 % expect their lives to improve over the next year.
54 % say their security is better now than it was before the war.
77 % of Iraqis say they personally never have had any encounter with coalition forces.
( Of those who had, half call it a positive encounter; half, negative. )
US LED INVASION
48 % say US was right
39 % say US was wrong
13 % have no opinion
ATTACKS ON COALITION
78 % say Unacceptable
17 % say Acceptable
these polls figures may be true to a certain degree,but remember polls are ver subjective.The question to ask is who was polled? (the rich? poor? middle class?) Im sure these dont represent the people of Fallujah.Basically a poll can be tailored to what the person wants it to say ie.
If I ask 100 peopl who smoke cigarettes does smoke bother them Im sure most will say no,but ask that same question to those who dont smoke and the number of people that it bothers will be vastly different then that taken of the first poll
To DoughBoy
Let´s say Iraq killed 6 million US children, would you love Iraqis then? If USA was occupied and people were killed daily in your surroundings and someone how claimed to be from an Arab newspaper asked if you liked their occupation or not would you trust him? Don´t you think that you would give him the answer he want´s (out of fear)? Would you trust a poll that was conducted by the arabs occupying USA? You are naive! Or as Goethe put it -“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.”
To Jason – I share your grief!
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by Jason – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 10:16 am)
“…”hand in the cookie jar” when it come to the oil in Iraq…”
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
SADDAM’S ANFAL CAMPAIGN (1988)
by Kenneth Roth (executive director of Human Rights Watch)
“…With this extraordinarily detailed evidence of genocide, Human Rights Watch launched a campaign to bring Saddam to justice. At the time the U.N. Security Council was creating special tribunals for Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia, but there was NO CONSENSUS for similar action on Iraq. FRANCE and RUSSIA, each with EXTENSIVE BUSINESS INTERESTS IN IRAQ, threatened to wield their VETO. CHINA, worried about analogies to its treatment of Tibetans, was disinclined to support an International Criminal Tribunal for Iraq. With no International Criminal Court then in the works, and the Pinochet option of exercising universal jurisdiction in national courts not yet widely recognized, the prospect of criminal PROSECUTION WAS REMOTE…”
France, Russia, and China REFUSED to support legal action against Saddam.
http://www.hrw.org/editorials/2002/iraq_032202.htm
“…Prior to the toppling of Iraq’s Ba’athist regime, the country reportedly had signed several multi-billion dollar deals with foreign oil companies mainly from China, France, and Russia…”
US Dept. Of Energy:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html
France, Russia, and CHINA had VETO power within the UN security council. (They were against ANY military action on Saddam.)
It appears that Saddam was being protected by “cookie monsters”.
I am arabian so please forgive me for the spilling and my week expression.
i am not agianest Americans but i am againest the American policy, and i believe that the count down of America had begun, the reason is very simple, to buid a tower the lower parts should be stronger than the uppers,
the vectory can be done only if we are fighting for a fair and real case, so the leaders are usually more satisfied with their case more than their solders, they are always in the front of the army, and they have no hidden targets.
America was built on 20 millions killed perosns , the killers became leaders , the American leaders (cow boyes )has their own targets (oil, money, firms) and they are creating a false cases (terrorism, freedom, weapons … etc) to convence their people to fight, actually the great part of american people were apsent minded now they started to understand the situation,
There is no reason to fight Iraq, Afghanistan or Palastine, like Before, there was no reason to fight Vitnam
THERE IS NO CASE TO FIGHT FOR, SO THE FAILURE IS COMMING SOON,THANKS GOD.
To DoughBoy
I see Rumsfelds cozy business deals with Saddam slip into your memory hole – convenient! (you are doing the same trick as Stalin did when he started to erase Trotsky from all pictures). 567,000 children died caused by the sanctions that US was responsible for. Von Sponek and Dennis Halliday, both former chiefs for the UNs Oil for food program, said that US sanction policy was a genocide (far worse then anything Saddam pulled of)- once again it slip through your memory hole. USA supported Saddam when he was doing his worst crimes (memory hole again?) and gave Saddam passive support when he did slaughter the shiites after the uprising following gulf”slaughter”war1. Gore Vidal use to call USA the “United States of Amnesia” – I do think it´s harder to manipulate the Iraqis and erase the history- I don´t think they are as easily brainwashed!
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by US war on Terra – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 10:46 am )
“…Let´s say Iraq killed 6 million US children, would you love Iraqis then? If USA was occupied and people were killed daily in your surroundings and someone how claimed to be from an Arab newspaper asked if you liked their occupation or not would you trust him? Don´t you think that you would give him the answer he want´s (out of fear)? Would you trust a poll that was conducted by the arabs occupying USA? You are naive!…”
I TRY to love ALL people.
(However, I don’t necessarily love all people’s actions or ideologies.)
The POLL indicated that MOST IRAQIS have not met ANY coalition members.
Half of the 23% that did, found it to be negative. (11.5 %)
AS FOR THE POLL, it was conducted by Oxford Research International of Oxford, England. (Link was provided.)
Please check their polling techniques for yourself.
http://www.oxfordresearch.com/Iraq.html
As for a pro US BIAS, it doesn’t seem likely seeing as 4 different news agencies sponsored it. (from various countries)
To DoughBoy !
You still don´t answer my question: Would you trust a poll that was conducted by the Arabs occupying USA? I don´t think so! Would you trust a pull that was conducted by Aljazeera? After all they didn´t fill you with lies about WMD, Iraqi links to terrorism, Iraqi links to 9/11 as FOX and the rest of your so called “free” press did! What did you president told you – “Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me” and you keep on asking for more lies- amazing!
From Orwell´s 1984 -“It needed also a sort of athleticism of mind, an ability at one moment
to make the most delicate use of logic and at the next to be unconscious of the
crudest logical errors. Stupidity was as necessary as intelligence, and as difficult
to attain.”
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by US war on Terra – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 11:12 am)
“…US sanction policy was a genocide (far worse then anything Saddam pulled of)- once again it slip through your memory hole. USA supported Saddam when he was doing his worst crimes (memory hole again?) …”
The “sanctions genocide” was primarily due to Saddam using the money for his military and his lifestyle.
Many (non Iraqis) don’t know/REMEMBER how Saddam used FOOD RATION COUPONS as a TOOL OF COOERCION.
FOR NON BATHIST
To recieve food rations, the person would have to go to a government office. Initially they were interrogated and quite frequently they were then tortured. Often, whole families were “requested” to come in.
(This was well known amongst the non bathist.)
US SUPPORT
The US did “support” Iraq in the past.
(Among others, France did as well)
AT ONE TIME, Saddam was known as a progressive leader.
(he was heralded for building schools and infrastructure)
To DoughBoy!
Go to http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/042004_goff_timeline.html and try to fill tour “memory holes”. Go to http://www.radio4all.net/ search for Halliday or/and Sponek and listen to them and ask yourself who you are going to believe- Bush and Bliar- the serial liars -or these gentlemen who both resigned after over 30 years work for UN because they didn´t want be a part of a genocide?
Last but not least -TRY TO THINK BY YOUR OWN!
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by US war on Terra — Monday April 26, 2004 @ 11:35 am)
Didn’t Orwell also write: “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” (from Animal Farm ?)
It seems the quote most fittingly applied to Saddam.
AFTER ALL,
SADDAM HAD EVERY CHANCE TO PREVENT THE WAR.
Saddam/Iraq had the responsibility to PROVE FULL COMPLIANCE with UN resolutions. (and ceasefire agreement) He NEVER fully complied.
UN
AND
To prevent war, Saddam was given 48 hours to leave Iraq.
(SADDAM could have spared everyone by leaving with “his” $ billions.)
It is sad that some people view this as a way to bend minds to the left or right. I’m sure when each of these people signed up for duty, their wish was not for their face to be made up to make a picture of a President. Their only job was to ensure our freedom. Some people have no respect for the dead and for the people who serve diligently. Most of those said people would not lay down their lives for their country. I say they are cowards. And yes, I HAVE already served.
Anyone that has not read this timeline needs to do so,it is very incitefull.If you can still support this war,then you really have some personal issues.This war has never been about keeping the American public safe.It has never been about WMD’s or liberating Iraq.it is about money,power,control and the ability to influence the middle eastern countries with bully tactics.
The American soilders in the picture above gave thier lives for a cause that is not just.
Iraq only became America’s enemy when it was conveint for the president
to doughboy,
you stated that China,France,and Russia all had veto power’s and were all against going to war with Iraq.Implying that because of their recent oil deals with Iraq was the reason they were against war,but whats your point?There veto power’s and objections to the war did not stop the US from invading.
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by US war on Terra – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 12:05 pm)
“…Go to http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/042004_goff_timeline.html and try to fill tour “memory holes”…ask yourself who you are going to believe…Last but not least -TRY TO THINK BY YOUR OWN!…”
MICHAEL C. RUPPERT
It appears his FORTE is within the DRUG war of the late 1970’s.
He is a former Los Angeles Police narcotics detective who was forced out of LAPD in 1978.
He graduated as a POLITICAL SCIENCE major from UCLA. (honors)
He also testified before senate about CIA during the Iran-Contra era.
It appears that he POLITICALLY MOTIVATED and that he has a strong interest in SELLING PRODUCTS. (hired lecturer ?)
HE SELLS DVDs & even has a catalog of all his products.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/ftw_catalog.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/books.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/videos.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/backissues.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/subscribe.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/packagedeals.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/new_prods.html
I would be VERY CAREFUL in taking this source seriously.
I urge you to look at the map! Iraq is not a part of USA! Are you going to defend your freedom to lie about WMD, Iraqi links to terrorism, Iraqi links to 9/11 and rigth to break international laws?
“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism” – Thomas Jefferson
IN RESPONSE TO:
(thetruth – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 12:49 pm)
“…China,France,and Russia all had veto power’s and were all against going to war with Iraq.Implying that because of their recent oil deals with Iraq was the reason they were against war,but whats your point?…”
The point is: Saddam’s non compliance should have been dealt with much earlier. Human Rights Watch could not even garner support for legal action against Saddam’s crimes against humanity.
IN MY OPINION:
If Saddam had been dealt with earlier, the odds of there being a war would have been much less.
(At least, there would have been less Iraqi suffering.)
Saddam was “enabled” by other’s (France, Russia, China) economic interests. The economic interests were knowingly purchased at the expense of the IRAQI PEOPLE’S SUFFERING.
http://www.hrw.org/editorials/2002/iraq_032202.htm
to DoughBoy
Have you anything to dispute whats written on the site? Is that the best you can do? Trying to discredit Michael Ruppert? His a wonder of credibility compared with Bush, Blair and your WMD (etc) lyiing “free” press.
You can get the same history from other sites as well: the well known journalist John Pilger http://pilger.carlton.com/iraq Robert Frisk http://www.robert-fisk.com/ and so on. The history is there. And I see that Halliday and Sponek sliped into the memory hole.
This is a great mosaic, and I’m hoping to close those italic and bold tags…
“…Is that the best you can do? Trying to discredit Michael Ruppert?…”
I merely restated what is readily available on his own site.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/about.html
If you find it discrediting …
you might want to rethink your sources.
IMO, I would be VERY CAREFUL in citing it as a source.
Saddam’s non compliance should have been dealt with much earlier. Human Rights Watch could not even garner support for legal action against Saddam’s crimes against humanity. -Doughboy
Saddam’s non compliance has never been an issue,it’s a scape goat George W. Bush used
1)First of all, many of the top leaders of the current administration, particularly Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney, happily embraced Hussein’s dictatorship in the 1980s when Iraq was the enemy of our enemy (Iran), and thus considered our de facto friend. Under the so-called “tilt” toward Iraq, the Reagan-Bush administration decided to assist Iraq in its war against Iran during the Iran-Iraq War of 1980-88.
2)Under Reagan, Iraq was removed from the list of countries that support terrorism, thus permitting the provision of billions of dollars’ worth of agricultural credits and other forms of assistance to Hussein. The bearer of this good news was none other than Rumsfeld, who traveled to Baghdad and met with Hussein in December 1983 as a special representative of President Reagan.
3)Further, the United States has developed close ties with the post-Soviet dictatorships in Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan – all ruled by Stalinist dictators who once served the Soviet empire. And there certainly is nothing even remotely democratic about Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, two of America’s other close allies in the region.
4)Other motives must be at work. Control of Iraq could give the United States de facto control over the Persian Gulf area and two-thirds of the world’s oil – an unrivaled prize in the historic human struggle for power and wealth
Seems to me like countries are allowed dictatorships as long as America can dictate them.
The only military action the U.S. should be aggresively partaking in,is the capture of Osama Bin Laden.
To answer robert Smiths question- no we have not found nuclear weapons YET- but we have found many missiles and explosives in schools. What if they did have it and then it was used on us. Isn’t BETTER to actually go in and find out? I think it is and I am quite glad we are there making SURE that they do not have anything. Mr. Smith, you might find this hard to believe and maybe you wouldn’t know it until after talking with a Soldier but the Iraq people and civilians actually like us there! The women and kids come running up to the soldiers THANKING THEM EVERY SINLGE DAY! We already know that you would not want to sacrafice your life for this country but why don’t you take a look at Aundrea’s statement from earlier. We are actually doing a lot of good there!
And I also loved what “Jennifer” said!
This picture is awful- why would anyone use pictures of fallen soldiers to take a stab at our president.
I’ve never believed that my God is a vengeful God. However, on the day that George Bush meets his maker, God is going to have one hell of a vengence on him…….
Doh!Boy
/// Either you have MISUNDERSTOOD again …
OR possibly you are politically wrangling.
CONGRESS IS COMPOSED OF TWO HOUSES …
THE SENATE and THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ..
(BOTH FOUND SADDAM TO BE A THREAT)
HOW is that politically labeling?
(It appears you are ARE being paranoid.) ///
I ask you yet AGAIN, what has THAT got to do with what I’ve been addressing? I never did deny this, ///BOTH houses of Congress found SADDAM TO BE A THREAT /// to be untrue! I never said that is not a fact….. and you’re basically telling me that I am denying that “fact” in order to somehow suggest (or to show me evidence to suggest) that Bush or the republicans are not the only ones in line with your own agenda (opinion) but also to a certain degree democrats as well. As if somehow I would feel better if democrats are on on the page on the issue of “threat” as Bush Jr is. Now if you’re telling that’s not accusing me of political wrangling, I don’t know what is!
HOWEVER!
The issue we’ve been discussing here is not merely the question of “threat”…. it is a question of “war” than anything else! The reasons for going to war, including the reasoning of “threat”, is weak at best! That’s what I’ve been talking about all along here and that is what our discussion here is about.
Look, whether democracts agree with Saddam being a threat or not doesn’t apply here, the ultimate decision to go to war or not lies on Bush’s hands. And on his hands ONLY. He’s the one who’s created this ‘mess’, he’s the one who “made” up all the reasons for going to war, he’s the one who’s “selling” this war to the whole world, for god sakes! Not you doh!boy, not the democrats, not clinton, not kerry, not ralph nader, not blair (afterall if America didn’t even suggest the possiblity of war in Iraq, I highly doubt Britain would take Baghdad on their own), not the EU, not the UN but Bush and his administration themselves of creating this “WAR” in Iraq.
NOW, are YOU going to deny that simple fact?
IN RESPONSE TO:
(thetruth – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 2:25 pm)
///Saddam’s non compliance should have been dealt with much earlier. Human Rights Watch could not even garner support for legal action against Saddam’s crimes against humanity. -Doughboy///
“…Saddam’s non compliance has never been an issue,it’s a scape goat George W. Bush used…”
NEVER ?
Operation Desert Fox of Dec. 1998.
(American & British bombing campaign – Clinton & Blair)
More than 200 cruise missles were launched.
Over 100 “targets” were bombed.
Two aircraft carriers were sent to the region.
(USS Enterprise and the USS Carl Vinson)
REASON:
Saddam did NOT ALLOW inspectors to do their job.
(as per UN resolutions)
Lindsey your,
/// I find it apauling that some of you use the word “only” when talking about death. It’s like saying oh well thats not as bad as say 2,000 deaths. Each one of those who have died for our freedom had a life beyond. Their families are mourning the loss of their loved one while many are celebrating that we have this number of deaths. Saying we have ONLY 500 600 deaths is like saying that the ozone layer is ONLY 50 percent destroyed. We are still being damaged by the rays of sunlight , just as we are still being hurt by the deaths of our soldiers. PS. I like that you have made a mural, I don’t like that it is of President Bush..maybe rethink it..make the picture into the American Flag ..or a peace sign or something along those lines. ///
I can only speak for myself and I never had nor will I ever trivialize the death toll of soldiers and all other victims of war for that matter. What I’ve been talking about so far on this board is all about Bush and his policies only. I don’t care if the democrats (or any of his political opponents) would agree or disagree with him and his actions/ policies, in fact that doesn’t matter to me. What matters to me is what he has done in reality and if what he has done deserves praise I will certainly say so, if not I will speak otherwise (like I’m currently doing now). My interest lies in what’s best FOR America and in fact FOR this little planet call earth. Bush imho, isn’t looking out for either of that.
You even said it yourself Lindsey,
/// We are still being damaged by the rays of sunlight , just as we are still being hurt by the deaths of our soldiers. ///
We are damamged and it’s mostly the fault of our current administration, let by none other, George W Bush. HE is the only person who owes those soldiers an apology. Not any of his critics.
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 3:08 pm)
“…the ultimate decision to go to war or not lies on Bush’s hands. And on his hands ONLY…”
I believe you are TOTALLY MISTAKEN.
The decision to go to war lies with the CONGRESS.
(AS PER THE CONSTITUTION – congress is supposed to declare war)
Article 1 – Section 8 – Clause 11
/// As an american soilder myself,I can say that my heart truly goes out to those who have fallen in this fruitless war.I was intially for going into Iraq,because I was led to believe that the state was a threat to the U.S.To simply say I’ve changed my views is an understatement.regardless what is put out in the media I can tell you from personal experiance,after doing a 1 year tour in Iraq that the only reason the U.S. is still there is to secure a permant “hand in the cookie jar” when it come to the oil in Iraq. /// from Jason.
It’s unfortunate, but it’s one of many similar sentiments on the current war in Iraq. But the question remains, what are we going to do about it? ANYONE but Bush should be a good start.
/// I believe you are TOTALLY MISTAKEN.
The decision to go to war lies with the CONGRESS.
(AS PER THE CONSTITUTION – congress is supposed to declare war)
Article 1 – Section 8 – Clause 11 ///
Yea but who the hell had veto power? And I told you even if democrats unanimously agreed to go to war, that doesn’t mean shit here! The fact that we ARE going to war is the issue here. The ONLY way you want me to “be quiet” (so to speak) about this is NOT going to war in the first place!!!!!
Don’t YOU get it by now?
And you honestly tell me Bush has got nothing to do with the current war in Iraq??? Is that it (from what you said /// I believe you are TOTALLY MISTAKEN /// )?
You’re even denying the simple fact…. I’m… speechless
/// these polls figures may be true to a certain degree,but remember polls are ver subjective.The question to ask is who was polled? (the rich? poor? middle class?) Im sure these dont represent the people of Fallujah.Basically a poll can be tailored to what the person wants it to say ie.
If I ask 100 peopl who smoke cigarettes does smoke bother them Im sure most will say no,but ask that same question to those who dont smoke and the number of people that it bothers will be vastly different then that taken of the first poll ///
You have a valid point but doh!boy here would think otherwise. And I’ll be frank and fair about this, polls, depending on who’s taking them and HOW, can be somewhat reliable in terms of getting the feel of the general sentiment of the issue in question. That’s why we have polls in the first place or else if polls are all nothing but lies why would we need them? Why would we need to study them and why would we need to study statistics?
And to doh!boy’s credit, he got a good source. Unless you have something against Oxford, I don’t think you can outright dismiss the validity of the polls.
Yet still, the details of the polls (ie how it was conducted, and to whom it was conducted, rich? poor? demographics? etc.) is still in question here…. Oxford or not.
I really like the mosaic but instead of it making a picture of George Bush it should have made some kind of a sign that would have showed how these people gave up their lives to serve the mankind not only President Bush!
doh!boy,
/// France, Russia, and China REFUSED to support legal action against Saddam.
http://www.hrw.org/editorials/2002/iraq_032202.htm
“…Prior to the toppling of Iraq’s Ba’athist regime, the country reportedly had signed several multi-billion dollar deals with foreign oil companies mainly from China, France, and Russia…”
US Dept. Of Energy:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html
France, Russia, and CHINA had VETO power within the UN security council. (They were against ANY military action on Saddam.)
It appears that Saddam was being protected by “cookie monsters”. ///
And yet doh!boy, you never finished this story did you?
What’s the status of Iraq now? Is it still in Saddam’s hands? Or “Coal-American-ition” hands?
Now that France, Russia and China failed in their attempt to secure their share of “cookies”, Bush and Cheney can now secure all the “cookies” themselves without opposition (well what’s a little resistance here and there by “terrorists” nowadays right?) and most importantly, with the approval of most of Americans (ie mainly the pro-war crowd and those who want a hand in that cookie jar) ……yeeeha!
IN RESPONSE TO:
(JOSEPH – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 3:34 pm)
Face the facts.
Most all US officials involved with going to war,
found Saddam to be a threat.
They then acted upon their findings.
If you feel you must blame someone …
shouldn’t ALL parties share in your disdain?
(Or are you only allowing for your feelings for Bush?)
Regardless, Saddam could have easily prevented war.
/// AND
To prevent war, Saddam was given 48 hours to leave Iraq.
(SADDAM could have spared everyone by leaving with “his” $ billions.) ///
sure it’s none of my business what you write in responds to sombody else’s comment… and I would like to apologize personally to you right now if you find this uncomfortable….. but you and I covered THAT particular issue (of Saddam sparing everyone’s lives) ALREADY!
That goes for the ‘polls’ business……. the issues on getting reliable “sources” (remember the library advice I gave you) and your repeating themes on same weak arguments- or as what Mr T would call them- jibber-jabber! I pity the fool! (Indeed)
You know your problem is you won’t allow yourself to be wrong, no matter what….. I, on the other hand, have conceded many times at my mistakes or if you proved me wrong, I would say so and acknowledge it. Thus, because you refused to let-go of your own set of dogmatic beliefs (even go as far to provide often unnecessary and frankly useless links or sources to make your, already weak, point), you aren’t allowing yourself to see the other side of the coin. And ulitmately you’re hurting yourself by supporting or believing in “bullcrap” or “lies” or ineffecitive policies, which the whole country is suffering and in fact the world too….Is that what you want? I mean seriously is it?
Aquestes persones han mort per insteressos economics, fins quan?
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 3:54 pm )
“…Bush and Cheney can now secure all the “cookies” …”
Going by your post, I’m guessing that you are referring to Halliburton.
IF SO,
Please tell me what you know of them.
LIKE
Which subsidiaries of Halliburton are in Iraq ?
etc…
I have 4 sons spead all over the world. I am very proud of all of them. The youngest is in Iraq, 3rd tour there. Went in to fight Osama? This isn’t the war America agreed with. So far my sons aren’t in the war prez picture, thank God. The longer we fight there, for what ever reason, Bushy’s picture will become more and more clear. Someone needs to stop this guy before there’s a draft, even higher gas prices, no wilderness left, more sorrow and more attacks on us. We haven’t won the war, as bush says, it’s just begun. Believe it or not, read your bible, Bush, Osama, Saddam are all there.
“…You know your problem is you won’t allow yourself to be wrong, no matter what…”
I tend to take great care in WHAT I “say” …
and HOW I “say” it .
(I find personal research to be paramount in forming opinions.)
BUT …
Like everyone, I occasionally make mistakes.
🙂
FOR EXAMPLE:
IN POST 555
I mistakenly typed 33% instead of 23%
BUT IN POST 556
I corrected the post.
SEE: (Comment by DoughBoy — Saturday April 24, 2004 @ 2:38 pm)
/// Face the facts.
Most all US officials involved with going to war,
found Saddam to be a threat.
They then acted upon their findings.
If you feel you must blame someone …
shouldn’t ALL parties share in your disdain?
(Or are you only allowing for your feelings for Bush?)
Regardless, Saddam could have easily prevented war ///
Please explain in detail. One by one. Because at this point I think you’re simply ignored what I’ve been responding to your comments.
/// Face the facts. /// I did and ALL the time now why are you still not believing in that or say otherwise about this simple concept I’ve given to you and to everyone on this board who is reading my posts: My own opinions based on facts….. is just beyond me! It’s almost unbelievable how “ignorant” you’ve become! Yes, ignorant of my posts.
/// Most all US officials involved with going to war,
found Saddam to be a threat.
They then acted upon their findings. ///
So Congress passed the bill to war so that automatically means president Bush has absolutely nothing to do with the creation, the reasons, the promotion, the selling, the go-ahead, the support or the encouragement of it! Basically since the rest of the government says to support it, Bush just goes along with their opinion. Is that it? Or even telling me that it is the popular public opinion (which imo counts the most) who says to get Saddam and occupy Iraq…. forget about Afghanistan, forget about the war on drugs in Latin America, forget about the civil wars in Africa….. even before Bush and his administration ever thought about this very concept (of war in Iraq). Is that it?
It’s pathetic!
No American, from an intellectual to just a plain o’ naive one, in public would endorse or promote going to war against Iraq. I don’t think anybody would strike, would make signs and putting their jobs on hold to march and protest in favor FOR war….. BEFORE the government even thought about the concept of war in Iraq.
It is the only government that promotes this. And you don’t get anymore government than Bush himself, who currently holds office in the country.
/// If you feel you must blame someone …
shouldn’t ALL parties share in your disdain?
(Or are you only allowing for your feelings for Bush?) ///
Should I use your advice and blame everyone in Washington about this, sure I could. As well I should. But what do you think that would do? To lighten the blame-load away from Bush? To lessen the blame-responsibility away from our commander-in-chief? I told you already- NOT A CHANCE IN HELL!
And in a sense, you’re right. I’m allowing my feeling for Bush and him only. And I never hide that fact either.
Notice I don’t really take issues with the Republican party as much as I have Bush personally. Or that I’ve from time to time do blame Clinton and the democrats for their share of mistakes…. ie, politics in all my discussions is irrelevant!
/// Regardless, Saddam could have easily prevented war ///
Now why would Saddam needed to prevent a “war” in the first place? Did he initiated it? Why would he need to have an option of going into exile if there is no conflict, no war, no nothing against him and Iraq?
/// Like everyone, I occasionally make mistakes.
🙂
FOR EXAMPLE:
IN POST 555
I mistakenly typed 33% instead of 23%
BUT IN POST 556
I corrected the post. ///
Exactly what I’m saying. You’re pathetic!
/// “…Bush and Cheney can now secure all the “cookies” …”
Going by your post, I’m guessing that you are referring to Halliburton.
IF SO,
Please tell me what you know of them.
LIKE
Which subsidiaries of Halliburton are in Iraq ?
etc… ///
And have a (probably) meaningless discussin about “Halliburton”? Maybe later but not now!
Besides are you admitting to that I’m right? That since France, Russia and China are out of the picture, we, America can now do whatever we wish to that “cookie jar”?
I don’t forget easily and certainly will not detract from the very issue we’re supposed to be discussing! Nice try!
yet still I’ll probably address your ‘Halliburton’ comments soon.
/// It is sad that some people view this as a way to bend minds to the left or right. I’m sure when each of these people signed up for duty, their wish was not for their face to be made up to make a picture of a President. Their only job was to ensure our freedom. Some people have no respect for the dead and for the people who serve diligently. Most of those said people would not lay down their lives for their country. I say they are cowards. And yes, I HAVE already served. ///
So you’re basically saying, let the soliders run the country. Me, being a civilian, never wore a uniform, should just shut up, be quiet and know my role…. Sounds awfully like Chile, Peru, Congo and another other country with a history of military dictatorship!
I guess Heil Bush!
Thank you doughboy for your insight- everyone felt Sadam to be a threat and we had to go in and find out. What was it Joseph said earlier- he feels that Bush is even responsible for 9/11?? That is the MOST ludicrious thing I’ve ever heard!!!
When is this site finally going to be shut down- enoughs, enough!
Jospeh don’t you have a job or something else to do then comment on everyones comment? I see your name on every other one and it’s ridiculous. I liked what #650 was originally saying until you distorted it and ruined it. People that wear uniforms and protect yours and I’s freedom- we should have respect for. They have earned it and they DESERVE respect. It’s as simple as that- they DON”T deserve to have there pictures plastured all over and used to make stabs at the president. I really don’t think you could EVER be a soldier!!
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 4:56 pm)
“…Now why would Saddam needed to prevent a “war” in the first place? Did he initiated it?…”
In a sense… YES!
Saddam invaded Kuwait …
he was then ousted from Kuwait…
upon which he agreed to a conditional
cease fire agreement … (UN resolution)
in which he NEVER met the conditions.
(it was Saddam’s responsibility to comply)
THAT is why Operation Desert Fox was implemented in Dec. 1998.
During the years of his “protected” (by France, Russia …) reign,
SADDAM massacred hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. (if not more)
Iraqi death tolls are between 250,000 to 1 million.
THROUGH INACTION their blood is on ALL OUR HANDS.
MY QUESTIONS:
Should we have allowed a “sanctions-free” Saddam to become a nuclear power?
(Keep in mind, the Iraqi regime had tried to invade TWO countries, used WMD on it’s OWN PEOPLE, AND already considered us to be AT WAR.)
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
How many Iraqis should we have allowed to die before Saddam was removed from power?
(Or do Iraqi lives not matter?)
(rachelle – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 5:48 pm)
“…Thank you doughboy for your insight…”
You are most welcome.
: )
/// Jospeh don’t you have a job or something else to do then comment on everyones comment? I see your name on every other one and it’s ridiculous. I liked what #650 was originally saying until you distorted it and ruined it. People that wear uniforms and protect yours and I’s freedom- we should have respect for. They have earned it and they DESERVE respect. It’s as simple as that- they DON”T deserve to have there pictures plastured all over and used to make stabs at the president. I really don’t think you could EVER be a soldier!! ///
Read the stuff I’ve said again. In fact let me quote it again for you,
/// So you’re basically saying, let the soliders run the country. Me, being a civilian, never wore a uniform, should just shut up, be quiet and know my role…. Sounds awfully like Chile, Peru, Congo and another other country with a history of military dictatorship!
I guess Heil Bush! ///
Where did I ever say that I don’t have respect for the soldier? That guy (forgot his name) who said the original quote,
/// It is sad that some people view this as a way to bend minds to the left or right. I’m sure when each of these people signed up for duty, their wish was not for their face to be made up to make a picture of a President. Their only job was to ensure our freedom. Some people have no respect for the dead and for the people who serve diligently. Most of those said people would not lay down their lives for their country. I say they are cowards. And yes, I HAVE already served. ///
Is basically telling me, being a non-soldier, to f–k off! To stop what I’m doing now…. to stop my (in your eyes) “rantings”, “bullshit” etc etc…… simply because I ain’t a soldier! Tell me he’s not saying that?
In fact, I do agree with his earlier point,
/// It is sad that some people view this as a way to bend minds to the left or right. I’m sure when each of these people signed up for duty, their wish was not for their face to be made up to make a picture of a President.///
That I tend to agree. It is disrespectful, no doubt…. yet who’s ultimately to blame for it? The artist? No! It’s the president himself because it is of his own doing!
/// People that wear uniforms and protect yours and I’s freedom- we should have respect for. They have earned it and they DESERVE respect. It’s as simple as that- they DON”T deserve to have there pictures plastured all over and used to make stabs at the president. I really don’t think you could EVER be a soldier!! ///
I’ve said nothing that disgreed with that.
Let’s break it down.
///People that wear uniforms and protect yours and I’s freedom- we should have respect for. ///
I upmost agree. I respect any soldier.
/// They have earned it and they DESERVE respect. ///
Yes they HAVE earned it and derserved it.
/// It’s as simple as that- they DON”T deserve to have there pictures plastured all over and used to make stabs at the president. ///
Of course they don’t deserve it, they’re dead and we should at least have some respect and leave them alone on it. But yet still I ain’t that artist who created that….. I am not him or her! But I also know I respect artists just as I respect those soldiers. Art is supposed to be controversial. It’s simply a fact. Go to any art gallary and talk to an expert and they’ll tell you about the controversy in art.
I’m not defending the guy who did the mosaic as much as I’m telling you like it is.
Thus, on the issue of the mosaic, to each his own. Some might like it, some don’t. But don’t attack ME, who has absolutely nothing to do with that, if you agree or disagree!
/// I really don’t think you could EVER be a soldier!! ///
And probably not. But what’s in it for you? Are you me? Do you want to know me? The issue here is about the respectability of soldier….. and the issue around the respect of soldiers. Not me.
/// MY QUESTIONS:
Should we have allowed a “sanctions-free” Saddam to become a nuclear power?
(Keep in mind, the Iraqi regime had tried to invade TWO countries, used WMD on it’s OWN PEOPLE, AND already considered us to be AT WAR.)
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
How many Iraqis should we have allowed to die before Saddam was removed from power?
(Or do Iraqi lives not matter?) ///
The grass is green. It’s a GIVEN!
I never deny Saddam’s atrocities. I never deny the right to act against those atrocities. I never say anything that support Terrorism, terrorists, or Saddam!!!!!
I told you guys before…. and perhaps you’ve never seen it because it’s so far in previous posts…. I WANT the war to succeed. I want the best for the Iraqis and I want the best for America!
Your questions about how ///Should we have allowed a “sanctions-free” Saddam to become a nuclear power? /// or /// How many Iraqis should we have allowed to die before Saddam was removed from power?
(Or do Iraqi lives not matter?) /// are NON-questions because I’ve already made it very clear that Saddam is a threat. Saddam should be stopped and punished for his crimes! Nobody in the world is denying that.
Yet at the expense of what? Our own American pockets? Our own American soldiers? The Iraqi people (ie wars are not clean, people WILL die no matter what we say, no matter how justified the sacifice is….. you might say ok (acceptable) if some Iraqi family is wiped out from the face of this earth but to their friends and family they aren’t, not ever…. that goes for those who have fallen fighting for our country)? And at the expense of our isolation from the rest fo the world? At the expense of our efforts in the war on terror ont he Afghan front? At the expense of being dividing up this country on this very issue (ie, what you guys are doing to me right now)?
And look, I don’t have all the answers….. perhaps if we waited for another year longer for UN approval. Perhaps if we use covert operations to remove Saddam from power instead of conventional war….. perhaps we should continue sanctions…. or otherwise……
BUT what I know is what we’re doing now is problematic. Is wrong. Is serious. Is a waste.
And I’ve always say I’m merely a ringer of the alarm bell. The sound of warning those problems is there. You choose to listen is ONLY up to you. Not me.
And all I know is it is more or less attributed to Bush and his decisions. That’s why I’m so critical of him and him only so far.
doh!boy and others,
Are you familiar with the exchange I had with Jake? If not you can go back and take a look….
but what I want to say is I don’t care who is winning or not winning this debate (just like what I’ve said to Jake)….. if you like to be the winner then let me help you, I declare YOU the winner. You win and you’re the better man than I….. that goes for anyone who’s reading this.
My one and only concern is that you UNDERSTAND what I’m talking about. That you at least read and think about what I’ve been saying so far.
rachelle,
/// What was it Joseph said earlier- he feels that Bush is even responsible for 9/11?? That is the MOST ludicrious thing I’ve ever heard!!!
When is this site finally going to be shut down- enoughs, enough! ///
OMG! Now you’ve done it. I want to avoid this but no it has to come up with these discussions.
SHOW ME A F–KING post that I’ve written that says Bush is indeed in reality responsible for 911.
If you’re not going to f–king quote me on that then don’t say I said it!
/// What was it Joseph said earlier- he feels that Bush is even responsible for 9/11?? That is the MOST ludicrious thing I’ve ever heard!!! ///
I agree it is ludicrous! Next thing you know I’ve said Clinton is the prime minister of Great Britain or the country of India is on the African continent or that the earth is a octagon!
F–k off!
A haunting but fitting image to spark discussion. I have perused the comments above concerning the image and find it interesting that there is the charge of exploitation of the dead for political purpose. That is exactly what the current Presidential administration has done since September 11, 2001. In regards to the liberation of Iraq. The most overused statement was “He gassed his own people.” As if anybody parroting those words as ajustification for the U.S. invasion and current application gave a shit. (Pardon my French err- Freedom.)
I suggest that anyone who thinks the Bush regime has the best interests of the United States turn off FOX news, and start reading up on the history of this President, his family and friends.
U.S. combat death toll ?? Anyone know if this includes those who died in Hospital in Germany and US after being airlifted?
이라크에서 죽어간 많은 희생자들을 애도하며… 부시는 언젠가 그들의 악몽에 시달리다 고통스러운 후회를 하게 될 것이다. 배부른 인간 부시.. 한국에서도 당신을 저주하는 사람들이 아주 많다는 것을 반드시 기억해라!!
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by JOSEPH — Monday April 26, 2004 @ 6:52 pm )
“…doh!boy and others,
Are you familiar with the exchange I had with Jake? If not you can go back and take a look…”
You frequently suggest to reread your posts …
I suggest you give a timeframe to whatever it is you
wish people to look over.
(specifics would be nice – seeing as there’s nearly 700 posts here)
Otherwise, one can’t know WHAT point you are trying to make.
(Also, one might disregard these requests based on your not taking the effort to provide specifics.)
Hooray~ Humoruniversity~~~~~~~~
I think this is an awesome tribute to those that have fought and died during this invasion. We most certainly will not get to know them and see their lovely faces on mainstream media. The Pentagon and the media seek to downplay the fact that loved ones ARE coming home in caskets. One need only see how the two that photographed the caskets and recently published them were fired from their jobs, to know this is true.
Thank you “Joe” for honoring these souls in such a beautiful way.
Peace
Just thought I’d run #661 through the translator – Korean to English:
It will die from Republic of Iraq and for it will grieve it will annoy
after, sliced raw fish and some day it blows to their nightmares and
and the many sacrifice sleeping field and. Full human being Bush.. The
people who curse you even from Korea are many remember the thing quite
certainly! !
I couldn’t have said it better myself
– Dr. Matthew P. Rimsley, Society for Excellents
IN RESPONSE TO:
(Comment by hancock paine – Monday April 26, 2004 @ 7:41 pm)
“…The most overused statement was “He gassed his own people…”
I don’t think you quite understand the severity of Saddam’s Halabja attack.
Halabja was the largest-scale chemical weapons (CW) attack
against a civilian population in modern times.
Allow me to share some discomforting information you may be unaware of.
The following comes from the testimony of Dr. Christine M. Gosden before the
Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government
and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. (April 22, 1998)
“…The CW attack began early in the evening of March 16th, when a group of 8 aircraft began dropping chemical bombs; the chemical bombardment continued all night. According to Kurdish commanders on the scene, there were 14 aircraft sorties during the night, with 7 to 8 planes in each group, and they concentrated their attack on the city and all the roads leading out of Halabja. The chemical attacks continued until the 19th. Iraqi planes would attack for about 45 minutes and then, after they had gone, another group would appear 15 minutes later…”
“…this was not the first chemical attack by Saddam Hussein. Previous attacks had been launched by Iraqi aircraft against 20 small villages in 1987…”
“…The occurrences of genetic mutations and carcinogenesis in this population appear comparable with those who were 1 to 2 kilometers from ground zero in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and show that the chemicals used in the attack have a general effect on the body similar to that of ionizing radiation…”
“…These weapons can kill, maim and produce life-long damage on the populations they are used against and, if mutagenic and carcinogenic chemicals are deployed, can damage future generations, long after the immediate effects of the attack have appeared to recede…”
“…the serious long term effects of these weapons…
1. Respiratory Problems
2. Eye problems
3. Skin problems
4. Neuropsychiatric problems
5. Cancers — Head, neck, respiratory tract, skin, gastrointestinal tract, leukemias and lymphomas
(especially in children), and reproductive (including breast and ovary)
6. Congenital abnormalities
7. Infertility
8. Miscarriages, stillbirths, neonatal and infant deaths…”
For 3 days Halabja was bombarded with a cocktail of chemical weapons including mustard gas, and the nerve gas sarin, tabun and VX. Between 5,000 and 7,000 people were killed immediately and a further 30,000 to 40,000 were injured, many severely. No one knows how many people have died in the ensuing 11 years, nor is there any information about how many people are now suffering long-term effects.
Video featuring Dr. Christine M. Gosden in Halabja:
Saddam’s Secret Time Bomb: 40-minute program on the long-term effects of chemical weapons used against the Kurdish city of Halabja in 1988.
http://homepage.mac.com/weblink/.Public/videos/98S-Time-Bomb_300.html
OR
You may witness the atrocity through images:
Google Image Search
why doesnt someone do one of bill clinton’s face with all the september 11 victims, okcity victims, original wtc victims, etc……
and maybe another one where we have all the people who agree with the french pm, and the new spanish pm and put all the victims of terrorism in that picture.
stop making the dead say stuff they wouldnt, thank them and let them Rest in Peace. Unfortunately they sacrafice so that you could exploit them.
why doesnt someone do one of bill clinton’s face with all the september 11 victims, okcity victims, original wtc victims, etc……
and maybe another one where we have all the people who agree with the french pm, and the new spanish pm and put all the victims of terrorism in that picture.
stop making the dead say stuff they wouldnt, thank them and let them Rest in Peace. Unfortunately they sacrafice so that you could exploit them.
666 comments as I read this…………come on Folks………..get a life………Do you REALLY believe that the time you have spent typing these wonderful, eloquent and well researched reponses make ANY difference at all? AT ALL? The mosaic is a tribute……….and a statement……..let it GO!!! Do your country and yourselves a REAL tribute……..get away from that keyboard………make a difference…………and VOTE!!! Repblican or Democrat………..just do something that MATTERS! These 666 posts, you MUST admit ………..will change NOTHING………your minds or your country……follow your American Heart.
The war is evil
// I don�t think you quite understand the severity of Saddam�s Halabja attack.
Halabja was the largest-scale chemical weapons (CW) attack
against a civilian population in modern times.//
Ok people let’s take a look back int time;
Did Saddam gas his own people
YES!!!
was he wrong
Yes!!!!
but guess what?
The US not only KNEW about this attack but SUPPORTED it
yes our US government knew and supported this event
these were not a random uses of chemical’s to wipe out his own people.This were planned attacks against the Iranian army;
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
As far as 9-11 I will have to say that the Bush adminstration is to blame;
“The briefing item reviewed past intelligence reporting, mostly dating from the 1990s, regarding possible al Qaeda plans to attack inside the United States. It referred to uncorroborated reporting that from 1998 that terrorists might attempt to hijack a U.S. aircraft in an attempt to blackmail the government into releasing U.S.-held terrorists who had participated in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. This briefing item was not prompted by any specific threat information. And it did not raise the possibility that terrorists might use airplanes as missiles.” Dr.Rice 9-11 testimony
Now if you do your own research and (I will help you out with a link) the US govenment itself,had plans back in the 1960’s to fake a terrorist attack against the US by hijacking our own planes and flying them into buildings,as an excuse to invade cuba this was none as OPERATION NORTHWOODS
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
Now for Dr.Rice to say they never considered the possibility for a plane to be used as a missle is a dead lie!
the bottom line is
The goevernment knew terrorist were in the country(you can blame the Clinton admin. for that)
They knew who they were
They knew they were taking flight and flying lessons
They knew about plans to hijack atleast one plane
They knew the outrageous history of this network(as if we had actually realeased there members they were gonna peacefully land the plane and give it back to us,assuming they used it as ransom as Dr.Rice stated)
These are our leaders with all this evidence a 10 year old (my daughter actually helped show me some of the connections) could have figured that some kind of attack was coming from the air,and even if you dont know from where security should have been stepped up nationwide until all of the hijacker and terrorist related to al qaida had been apprehended
REGARDING DOUGHBOY.
Thanks for the review of the Sadamm chemical attacks on the Kurds in Halabja. I think it’s worth exploring the time period in which these attacks occurred. What was the policy of the Presidential administration at that time regarding Saddam. I think it is edifying to openly discuss that policy and the individuals responsible for it’s implementation.
REGARDING SOBER
You’ve slipped quite a bit have you not son? Careful with that elbow now.
All I have to say is the war is NOT over and not close to being over. What will happen if we do find nuclear weapons???? All of you- EVERY single one of you that is against our president will be eating your words. It doesn’t matter that Sadam was killing his own people and it needed to stop. Everyone is upset b/c we havne’t found any “weapons of mass destruction” all of you have nothing better to do then to bi*ch about our president. Our military men and president is assuring YOUR freedom, even some of you that don’t deserve it. It comes down to for OUR saftey- we had to go in there and find out if they had anything that could destroy this country!!!
Well “the truth” maybe Clinton should have done something about it in the beginning instead of leaving office with everything in chaos! So Let me get this straight- everyone is ticked b/c Bush should have done something BEFORE them striking at 9/11. Kind of like what he’s doing now- HE IS DOING SOMETHING BEFORE they strike AGAIN and everyone hates it. This is a lose, lose situation and durning 9/11 YOU said he didn’t do enough and now everyone is saying he’s doing too much. This is such a screwed up society!
He had viable evidence to support actions pre 9-11,and we are not talking about a hostile take over of another country we are talking about stepping up internal security measures.
So far all the “intel” on Iraq has proven wrong.
With Saddam in captivity there is noway they can not have discovered the locations of any existing WMD’s,yet we still have none.
//HE IS DOING SOMETHING BEFORE they strike AGAIN //-Go Bush
When you say they I’m assuming you mean the terrorist that attacked us.That being said you are reffering to Al Qaeda.”They” have nothing to do with Iraq.”They” publicly denounced Saddam and his regime, calling them a non Islamic government
While we are over in Iraq the leader of “They” is still free,and planning more attacks against the US.
1)(CNN) — The man believed to be the top al Qaeda operative in Saudi Arabia has threatened to hit Saudi security forces hard after they said they had him cornered with three others.
2)AMMAN, Jordan (CNN) — Jordanian authorities said Monday they have broken up an alleged al Qaeda plot that would have unleashed a deadly cloud of chemicals in the heart of Jordan’s capital, Amman.
George Bush initially did a great job after 9-11 mobilizing and going after the terrorist network,but the prospect of making himself,his freinds and his families oil companies more prosperous has made him lose sight of what really must be accomplished.
Your absolutly right Clinton and his people need to be held accountable for 9-11 to a certain degree.
And in my personal opinion concerning Bush, I dont care for him as president but I dont care for Kerry either.
//we had to go in there and find out if they had anything that could destroy this country!!!// Bush supporter
Should we go into Japan,N.Korea,and Iran also.
Obviously you believe so by that statement,but we wont know why? Theres no prophit in invading any of them
I know “they” is a very general term and I know we are talking about 2 totally different things (9/11 and sadam) I was just making a comment that Bush was trying to stop Sadam of using WMD’s against us. What if we never went over there to stop Sadam and then something happend and then people would be saying Bush should have done something about it. The threat was out there and Sadam could have stopped the war before it started. Bush gave him ample of opportunity to stop it.
Go Bush, heres a scenerio
Your at home(Saddam)
Im across the street with a buddy of mine(Bush,Blair)
Me and my friend believe you hav a gun and we tell you to get rid of it
You say I dont have any
Myself and my buddy get the police to go in and search your place(UN Inspectors)
You agree and give them proof of everything in your place(Weapon list given to UN by Iraq)
You refuse to let the police talk to your kids about whether or not you have a gun(Iraq scientist)
Me and my friend claim that although there is no physcal evidence against you that you must be hiding a gun because the you wont allow the police to interview your kids
Me and my freind tell you,you have2 days to leave your house and take your family or we will come and beat you up throw you out and conduct our own search of your property
Does that really sound like the US was trying to avoid war? They (we) were going in one way or another,and as you can see even without Saddam in power blood is still being spilled.
One other thing,I dont want anyone to think im a Saddam simpithizer or anything like that.
He was a very cruel leader and needed to be replaced,but that was a world problem.
The US does not have the right to invade a country,because they dont like the leader
Our complete effort should be focused on the terrorist that actaully ATTACKED us,and bring them to justice
I’ll run my response #331 again for all of you who missed it,
I talked specifically about 911 commission,
—–
The thing is just like what you have said, the “action” already took place and because we can never turn back the clock to undo what’s done or (still) doing…. we can only do our very best and hope for a better outcome in a very difficult situation. Sympathy and support for the troops are only natural and certainly deserved.
Yet the problem I’m trying to raise is, let’s be blunt about this, when are we going to stop voting for Bush? When are we, as the American public– the ultimate decision maker, going to prevent some dumbass making stupid decisions at the expense of us (our own pockets, our own lives, our own children, our own economy, our own freedom etc etc.)
You mentioned political failure…. you’re right but you also failed to mention how that failure came into place and you hadn’t gone far enough to realize that very failure should be and is the focal point here ….. answer me this, are YOU going to vote for Bush in office in the coming election? Because if you are then everything you pointed out about supporting the troops and all that ‘jazz’ are nothing but lies and frankly pointless.
Look, political failure is the problem here. If Bush hadn’t directed resources and troops to Iraq…. if Bush had waited (for another year for example) for UN approval and backing of the international community….. if Bush hadn’t squandered whatever the last remaining “surpluses” we had from the Clinton handover…. if Bush wasn’t too keen on satisfying his obligations to (his) God more than his obligations to the greater American public…… if Bush is doing his job as what a president is supposed to be (ie, at least competent) then perhaps I wouldn’t be as critical of him as I am now. In fact the country wouldn’t be as divided and “f–ked up” as it is now…. pardon my language.
Why do you think we have the 911 commission? Why do you think the whistle blowers finally come out from under the rocks and go public with their books to finally tell the truth….. I can tell you right now it has little (or nothing) to do with the events of 911 or the war on terror…. it has everything to do with the war on Iraq. The blunder on Bush’s decision to go to Iraq is what sparked the 911 commission…. everybody, deep down inside, knows we could never have prevented 911 with the kind of inefficient system of the CIA or FBI or whatever intelligence community we had in place in those days and frankly from top to bottom everyone failed in some way and everyone was responsible but nobody would be stupid enough to admit to anything… let alone finding the gulity through some ad hoc committee. If Bush had been more competent and intelligent enough to do a better job on the Afghanistan front, ie, perhaps by now we would’ve killed or captured Bin Laden and other senior members of Al Queda, the 911 commission would never have been necessary. If all our resources had been directed towards the ‘noble’ cause of (really) fighting terrorism then 500 plus soldiers wouldn’t had died on Iraqi soil and billions would’ve been saved or maybe directed towards the Afghan front.
The bottom line is the replacement for W Bush’s presidency is as easy as going to your next door neighbour and have him or her to run for the country. I’m pretty sure the country is going to get better because of it.
—–
CLINTON
Could someone give a intelligent and factual arguement regarding Bill Clintons culpability for 9-11?
The former President was hounded by shameless corrupt Republicans for his entire tenure. How quickly many of you forget that the biggest concern of the “Right Wing” was not terroris, but Bill Clintons sex life.
George Bush was in office for 9 months (Well he was president for nine, spending the month of August in Crawford, TX) when “9-11” happened.
I suggest you research the Bush administration’s policy regarding terrorism. It was not a priority. That will become obvious. It’s pathetic to blame Clinton for “9-11″. Again, I suggest turn off FOX news, Rush”hapy pills” Limbaugh and the other agents of stupidity for a month. Learn to use your brains.
/// You frequently suggest to reread your posts …
I suggest you give a timeframe to whatever it is you
wish people to look over.
(specifics would be nice – seeing as there’s nearly 700 posts here)
Otherwise, one can’t know WHAT point you are trying to make.
(Also, one might disregard these requests based on your not taking the effort to provide specifics.) ///
You know what I’m gulity of here? I’m gulity of writing too darn much…. so telling you guys to go back to the pieces I wrote would be quite a challenge, no doubt. But at the same time, all the facts are there, everything I’ve said and everything that I told you to read what I’ve said is all on this webpage. If you or anyone elses here take the time to review every posts I made, I think it would save me time for repeating myself and my “critics” (like you doh!boy) wouldn’t feel as pressured.
The fact of the matter is, and I’ll be frank, I don’t even want to go back past posts. It’s a chore to find what I said to make some little point in my response (the same idea of going to find web links or your so-called sources). That’s why I often omitted the post number but just to say that “I’ve said it before”. And if you really want to take a look, I’m afraid, you’re going have to find it yourself. Again the “evidence” is always there, YOU just need to fine it.
/// Otherwise, one can’t know WHAT point you are trying to make.
(Also, one might disregard these requests based on your not taking the effort to provide specifics.) ///
If you find what I’m saying “bullshit” then go ahead and find it “bullshit”, but don’t raise unnecessary debate with me about whether that is “bullshit” or not. I’ll certainly be happy to do that with you if you really want to dwell on it further but I think woudl be a highly waste of time and it would be useless.
If you want the FACTS about Clinton- why don’t you go read “DERELICTION OF DUTY” you will see plenty of facts that might not make you like Clinton anymore. It’s great reading!! It tells you how many times Clinton turned his head from terrorists b/c he was too busy in a golf game or just to scared to do anything that big and contrisersial.
/// If you want the FACTS about Clinton- why don’t you go read “DERELICTION OF DUTY” you will see plenty of facts that might not make you like Clinton anymore. It’s great reading!! It tells you how many times Clinton turned his head from terrorists b/c he was too busy in a golf game or just to scared to do anything that big and contrisersial. ///
Hummm, if you change the words “golf game” to “ranch”, I think we could say the same thing to Dubya! But nonetheless, you’re absolutely right. Clinton’s no angel and he’s not guilt free.
Gaddafi to West: Don’t Force Us Back to Bombing
By Marie-Louise Moller and Paul Taylor
BRUSSELS (Reuters) – On a turbulent maiden visit to the European Union (news – web sites), Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi (news – web sites) appealed to the West Tuesday to seize his offer of peace and not force his country back to its bad old days of the gun and the bomb.
Cheered on by African drummers and chanting supporters who outnumbered human rights protesters, Gaddafi took another step toward international respectability with talks at European Commission (news – web sites) headquarters on his first visit to Europe since 1989.
European Commission President Romano Prodi hailed Libya’s decision to break with its violent past and renounce weapons of mass destruction, and said the EU executive was committed to integrating Tripoli into its Euro-Mediterranean dialogue.
But the aging Arab radical showed flashes of his firebrand style in a 45-minute harangue to a joint news conference, at which questions were barred, under the watchful eye of four of his women bodyguards in blue camouflage uniforms on the podium.
“I hope that we shall not be prompted or obliged by any evil to go back or to look backwards,” Gaddafi said, after defending his past support for militant Third World “freedom fighters.”
“We do hope that we shall not be obliged or forced one day to go back to those days when we bomb our cars or put explosive belts around our beds and around our women so that we will not be searched and not be harassed in our bedrooms and in our homes, as it is taking place now in Iraq (news – web sites) and in Palestine.”
He did not directly ask to join the EU’s so-called Barcelona process, a trade, aid and culture pact with 11 south and east Mediterranean neighbors, including Israel. But EU officials said they expected a formal application during his two-day stay.
POLITICAL THEATER
Vaunting his five-year dialogue with Gaddafi dating back to a time when the Libyan leader was still an international pariah, Prodi broke with protocol to welcome Gaddafi at the airport.
The EU chief did not mention human rights or democracy at their joint media appearance but praised Libya’s pledges to promote peace, stability and development in its region.
Prodi said he was sure Libya would settle “open issues” with Germany and EU candidate Bulgaria in the next few weeks.
“I am confident that, on this basis, the enlarged EU will stand ready to work with Libya for the common good in the Mediterranean and beyond,” the former Italian premier said.
Germany wants compensation for a 1986 bombing of a Berlin discotheque used by U.S. soldiers. Sofia wants freedom for six Bulgarian medics detained since 1999 and accused of deliberately infecting Libyan children with HIV (news – web sites).
In a red fez hat and a sweeping brown robe, Gaddafi gave a clenched-fist salute to more than 200 singing, dancing supporters who greeted him outside Commission headquarters.
A smaller group of about 50 Libyan exiles protested nearby, chanting “Gaddafi terrorist” and holding a banner proclaiming “Gaddafi is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.”
The landmark trip was another reward for Libya’s payment of compensation for the Lockerbie and UTA airliner bombings and its ending of nuclear, biological and chemicals weapons programs in a rapprochement with the United States and Britain.
Gaddafi will stay the night in a black Bedouin tent complete with satellite dish, pitched in the grounds of a Belgian state residence.
There was some discomfort in the Commission at Prodi’s effusive welcome for a leader whose 30-year rule has been marked by authoritarianism at home and erratic radicalism abroad.
In a statement timed for the visit, human rights group Amnesty International said Libya continues to jail, torture and execute political prisoners.
“The European Union has first of all to take care of the human rights issue,” said Libyan protester Saeed Khaled, a former defense engineer, exiled since 1998 in Switzerland.
“Nothing has changed in the country. The region is still the same. The changes he’s making are only in foreign policy.”
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20040427/ts_nm/eu_libya_dc_8
/// In a statement timed for the visit, human rights group Amnesty International said Libya continues to jail, torture and execute political prisoners.
“The European Union has first of all to take care of the human rights issue,” said Libyan protester Saeed Khaled, a former defense engineer, exiled since 1998 in Switzerland.
“Nothing has changed in the country. The region is still the same. The changes he’s making are only in foreign policy.” ///
Hear that Bush? It’s always a mystery to me why the administration would use Libya as an example to score points for their own political agenda. As if somehow Bush did something to change Libya’s political stance…. and now even that stance is still in question. Go figure.
On Clinton
I think you guys might find this interesting,
Karen Hughes on CNN’s LK http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0404/06/lkl.00.html
/// HUGHES: But what I am — I think what I think is most distressing, Larry, is that I think what he said has led to a misplaced sense of responsibility. Based on everything I know, I don’t — you know, as you know, I’m an advocate for the Bush administration and I am not an advocate…
KING: No kidding.
HUGHES: … for the Clinton administration. But I’m willing to stand up for the Clinton administration on this, too. Based on everything I know, I think that had anyone in the Clinton administration or the Bush administration been able to put together the pieces before the horror of September 11 in a way that would have prevented it, I know they would have. I know President Bush would have done everything in is power. And so I just disagree with him that…
KING: So what you’re saying is it absolutely was not preventable?
HUGHES: Well, his apology made it appear that someone in our government was responsible. That’s why I say there is a misplaced sense of responsibility.
KING: Well, somebody had to make a mistake somewhere?
HUGHES: No, al Qaeda is responsible. What happened is al Qaeda declared war on our country. Just as Japan declared war on our country when they attacked Pearl Harbor. And I think it’s very important that we be very clear about just who is responsible. It’s not our government. It’s al Qaeda. ///
So put it to rest people….. nobody could’ve prevented 911, except maybe if the intellignce community was a bit more competent. Not Clinton, not Bush. This is classic political wrangling if I ever saw one!
OMG, INSTEAD OF THOSE SOCI COMMI LIBERAL SOBS SUPPORTING THE TROOPS THEY USE THEM TO MAKE A POLITICAL STATEMENT. SHAME ON ETHOS EBASTARDS I HOPE THEY DIE IN HELL!!!!!!!!
Hey Bush i have supported up till now it’s time to bring our troops home and let the Irag people take care of their country from here on.
I am still amazed by people who believe the Bush regime’s lies to justify the occupation of Iraq for financial gain by American corporations. They remain ignorant of the fact that this is a class war, fought by the middle and lower class for the rich. *Note-How many rich politician’s sons or daughters are fighting for lies in Iraq? Iraq tied to Osama? Weapons of mass destruction?Are those corporations (tied to members of the Bush regime) making money? Get a grip Americans.
Honor those who sacrificed for a corrupt and mean U.S. administration, then bring the rest home. Then also grieve for the 10.000 + innocent Iraq citizens ( men, women and too many children) who have lost their lives.
I’m re-posting these—
#412
…..noticed a very good very informative post that would put to rest many of your questions and arguments you guys are trying to make against. Read #23
Pay close attention to
///As a former member of the armed forces, as someone who subscribed – and subscribes – to an ideal that includes my death for a cause I deem just and worthy, I don’t think of this mosaic as a “waste”.///
and
///I must, however, as you this one thing – if, as a soldier, I had to chose between someone sending me a care packet and someone lobbying my fellow Americans to show who got us into this mess, hoping the next commander in chief will not deny my request for a kevlar vest and more diplomacy instead of “bring it on “, I would chose the latter.
My morale will improve in either case, yet having a psychologist on staff in my unit, a kevlar vest that could have saved so many lives, and the knowledge that “up there”, someone acts to reduce violence rather than dismissing it as necessary, might do even more the trick.///
Thank you Mr. Luster
…..and…..
#433
/// I am a veteran who volunteered for the draft in 1967. I understand completely the sense of indigination some other vets and their families feel about the use of the pictures of dead soldiers for this piece. I also feel that Bush is directly responsible for their murder, and a traitor to the USA and our citizens, because: he did not fully utilize international pressure and alliances before launching the attacks; he used our men as sacrifices to avenge the planned attempt on his father’s life; he has billed us all for the costs through taxes and reallocation of national resources,which results in more profit for oil companies while sending our citizens to their deaths and their families to debt; he chose the country adjacent to the one with real nuclear research and capabilities, rather than the one that might actually threaten us; he is a shirker and dishonors our uniforms when he wears a flight jacket; and he has helped further divide this great country by instituting a war without sufficient ground forces to maintain order and supply chains in a country of 25 MILLION (try holding back California alone with the number of troops we have: ha!). What we have is a President who is a murdering coward, clear and simple, with a wife who killed someone in a car by tearing through a stop sign and was never fully investigated or charged, and two kids, one of whom, like dad, is just a basic drunk. That all of these young and hopeful faces have been sacrificed on his word and inept planning and malfesance is really a war crime. Now, just like his father’s betrayal that resulted in the death of thousands of the Kurds, he’ll pull us out in June to save his re-election and the result will, again, be the mass murder of civilians in the area. ///
Thank You Mr Falcon
Also,
Read #353 on my explanation on 911.
In reference to #690,
I asked the question why Bill Gates isn’t there fighting the resistance in Falluja or wherever in Iraq. I have yet to get a answer.
btw #666 on doh!boy….. how appropriate 🙂
hey it’s the first day you know I’m rude!
it’s not…. first day (sometimes I type too fast)
bill gates is too busy playing pac man somewhere to be fighting in falluja or wherever
#558 Dr Dan,
/// More soldiers, much less civilians, have been killed since the start of this dirty little oil war than were killed by the same point during Vietnam. therefore, if trends continue, more soldiers will be killed in Iraq than were killed by the end of Vietnam. I would also like to see a montage of images of all of the Iraqi civilians laid over Bush’s image.
For those who harp about a fight for freedom, this ain’t it. It is about oil and money for Bush buddies. How interesting that we only “fight for freedom” in those places where we can make a buck by taking theplace over. Shortly after this slaughter began, I saw photos of dead Iraqis. the one that tore me apart was a father lifting the dead body of his young daughter, ripped to shreds, legs and feet missing, covered on blood, from a charnal heap of bodies. If I were that father, I would hate us too.
Challenge to those who say Iraq is better off now that Saddam is gone: How many people were killed in the last year of his reign? How many in the past year? the number is much much higher. ///
Thank You Dr Dan
Ok, so with just about 700 posts I haven’t quite read them all, but the first couple of hundred prove interesting reading.
Yes it is a tragic image (that of the 829 coalition deaths, at present, that could possibly help to compose the mosaic of Bush), but surely it would be a far more tragic image if the coalition were to pull out from Iraq now (as Spain will have done by the 27th May), without finishing the job? What a waste of those soldiers’ lives if we all run away, tail between our legs, admitting we might have made a mistake or giving into the threats of terrorists (*cough*, Spain). For then it really would have been 829 pointless and needless deaths.
Thankfully the policies of Bush and Kerry aren’t too dissimilar, and so troops will remain in Iraq for as long as it takes to help the country reach a state of self-governance without the need of assistance from the US or UN. Surely there can’t be many educated people who are unable to understand this? Isn’t it in the interest of the whole World to see Iraq helped to her feet and able to conduct business with whomever she pleases for the first time in years? A military presence is essential for this, and unfortunately the inevitability is that there will be more deaths on both sides. (A sad fact, and not because the coalition troops are going out of their way to kill, but because the relatively few militants are.)
Although there may be a good number of you who are vehemently opposed to Bush at the moment, I think in years to come there will be rather a larger number who look back and are thankful for what took place under his guidance. The global situation is certainly a tentative one at present, I’m sure there is no one who disagrees. However so long as we stick with Iraq and concentrate our effort on rebuilding the country, both in the minds of the people and in the economic and physical infrastructure, then everyone will be able to see what can be achieved when we all put
So don’t rant against what your President has done, even if you do find it so objectionable. It is very easy to criticise. Be constructive and put all your great minds together (I am sure there must be one or two out there), and come up with possible solutions to the problem. Help your country be loved rather than join with those who hate it.
(btw, sorry if some of my English clashes with your understanding of it. I am English, and so I guess I speak it properly. :-D)
Oh yes, and ‘John’, #63, if it hadn’t been for your “grandfathers and uncles” I would be speaking German, so does that mean I actually have the grandfathers and uncles of my Japanese friend to thank? Or maybe it should be the Germans who deserve thanks, as I’m sure the Japanese would never have attacked you had the Germans not been at war in Europe. Oh, but then I suppose I should thank my “grandfathers and uncles” for being part of a country that, lacking in foresight, tried to appease the Germans for so long and so who failed to stop the War before it started. Although had they tried to stop the war before it started, they would probably have been shouted at and demonstrated against by Liberalists and Bush-Opposers.
Good night!
(ooops, cut a bit out. this is what it should read:)
*… everyone will be able to see what can be achieved when we all put our efforts together to help a nation in need, – a resounding success that will have beneficial implications worldwide.
The solution to this problem is simple! The American people just have to REALISE! that we have been under the control of international banking thugs & thieves for over 100 years! The years between 1913 & 1933 were some of the most dispicable years in our history. You have to go back & dig up the (REAL) history & then it becomes very clear as to who needs to HANG! WW-1 WW-2 Viet Nam & most other (wars) were PLANNED!!!!!! by these folks & the Bush Crime Family has ALLWAYS!!!!!! had a BIG! hand in the (LIES) Problem-Reaction-Solution. Look up (Oporation Northwoods) it’s now de-clasified info. Get ready to be sick ! Of course, you could just go back to your cold beer & hot pizza & say: Naaaaa, they? wouldn’t do that! The word to remember is ZIONIST. Not to be confused with Jews. If you get all your news from the ZIONIST owned & controled media, you are being mind controled! WAKE UP!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!
There are those who want to know why the images of our fallen should not be released (I.E.- the flag draped caskets returning from Iraq and Afghanistan).
Now you know why!
It is a crying shame that these men and women sacrificed just so some nit-wit could use their images to make a bit of “art” that really is nothing but an Anti-Bush political statement. If those shown in the images of this “art” knew that they were being misused in such a way, and that their deaths were being trivialized just so a few morons could get their hate-filled rocks off, they’d be spinning in their graves!
When judging my comments, please know that I am not a “Bush cheerleader”. I am a former Marine with ten years service and I am now a Soldier serving in the U.S. Army. I freely volunteered, with eyes wide open, to once again serve in the military after “9-11”. I did so in order to do exactly what my Bothers and Sisters in Arms chose to do, and what cost them their lives.
I am also very savvy regarding the media and politics.
Some of you may pull the wool over other people’s eyes, with your mock sadness and thinly veiled outrage towards President Bush and the United States, but you don’t fool me. You also won’t fool too many people outside of this little online pity party you are having, while worshiping this abomination of all things good. Fortunately for all of us, there are good people in this country, like those who have been misused for this pathetic political protest, who still know the meaning of honor. Obviously, many of you do not. For those of you who fit that description, you do not deserve to see the images of these people – for they had honor in life. Too bad you cannot recognize that and honor them in death.
Perhaps one day you will wake up and see the errors in your ways.
Perhaps you will then be ashamed of your behavior.
Perhaps….
/// Yes it is a tragic image (that of the 829 coalition deaths, at present, that could possibly help to compose the mosaic of Bush), but surely it would be a far more tragic image if the coalition were to pull out from Iraq now (as Spain will have done by the 27th May), without finishing the job? What a waste of those soldiers’ lives if we all run away, tail between our legs, admitting we might have made a mistake or giving into the threats of terrorists (*cough*, Spain). For then it really would have been 829 pointless and needless deaths.
Thankfully the policies of Bush and Kerry aren’t too dissimilar, and so troops will remain in Iraq for as long as it takes to help the country reach a state of self-governance without the need of assistance from the US or UN. Surely there can’t be many educated people who are unable to understand this? Isn’t it in the interest of the whole World to see Iraq helped to her feet and able to conduct business with whomever she pleases for the first time in years? A military presence is essential for this, and unfortunately the inevitability is that there will be more deaths on both sides. (A sad fact, and not because the coalition troops are going out of their way to kill, but because the relatively few militants are.)
Although there may be a good number of you who are vehemently opposed to Bush at the moment, I think in years to come there will be rather a larger number who look back and are thankful for what took place under his guidance. ///
Thank you Richard for your insight.
Just a quick pointer here. I’m not, how to say this, against the title of the presidency (even tho I diss just about every president of the past 3 decades), I’m against the person (people) who is CLEARLY incompetent at his job. And job that is arguably the most imporant in the world.
Look, ANYBODY could “guide” and “act” to oust Saddam one way or another…. ANYBODY who is lucky enough to hold the Presidency can declare war against this country or that country or against this group or that group…. it is the HOW (to go about it) that is the trick and that is in question here!
If (Gore) Kerry was president instead of Bush, we might have a different approach on the Saddam issue. We might still go to war against him but with much more support from the international community, for instance. If your next door neighbour ran and won the presidency, he or she might deal with the Saddam yet a different way. If Arnold was president, he might do a better job than Bush is now…. since he has both Democrats and Republican influence.
And yet the fact of the matter is we have an incompetent president sitting in the white house now and the rest of the world, not just America, is suffering because of it.
I understand perfectly the need to respect and support our troops in times of trial and in times of need. I neve did deny that (despite what some of you say) but let me criticise Bush let me voice my own opinion on what’s going on here…. and I’ve been very careful to not cross the line of playing “politics” here or taking advantage of our service men and women to prove a point or anything in that effect.
/// What a waste of those soldiers’ lives if we all run away, tail between our legs, admitting we might have made a mistake or giving into the threats of terrorists (*cough*, Spain). For then it really would have been 829 pointless and needless deaths. ///
You’re right we gots to finish it. However, what’s done is done and what’s going to happen still (if we keep on doing at the rate that we’ve been doing) is guaranteed casaulties (more deaths or otherwise) ……so if we know that then at the very least let folks like me to voice our opinion and voice our concern over this and let us criticise the person who made the mistake and who miscalcuated the whole thing. Can’t I have that right at least? The thing is we’re very close, awfully close to call those deaths as “pointless”….. we are. And if that doesn’t alarm you, I don’t know what will.
Look, the June or July (let’s just call it the summer) handover from the coalition to the Iraqi sovereignty is very near and close. And most people would say we’re nowhere close to being able to resolve the problems there to meet that objective- a smooth, uneventful transition. IF things get any worse now or even after the handover, then I’m afraid the deaths of those soldiers can only be remembered for the capture of Saddam and killing of his sons but not anything else more– not liberation, not reconstruction, not fighting terrorists.
Jonas…as another former vet who served in operation desert shield and enduring freedom……….Youre full of shit. And that is that.
In #697 Richard said:
“Although there may be a good number of you who are vehemently opposed to Bush at the moment, I think in years to come there will be rather a larger number who look back and are thankful for what took place under his guidance. The global situation is certainly a tentative one at present, I’m sure there is no one who disagrees. However so long as we stick with Iraq and concentrate our effort on rebuilding the country, both in the minds of the people and in the economic and physical infrastructure, then everyone will be able to see what can be achieved when we all put
So don’t rant against what your President has done, even if you do find it so objectionable. It is very easy to criticise. Be constructive and put all your great minds together (I am sure there must be one or two out there), and come up with possible solutions to the problem. Help your country be loved rather than join with those who hate it.
”
When I went to New York on February 15th, 2003 to join the millions who said “No to this War,” my sign said “Build Strong International Institutions Not Empires!” Bush showed contempt for the concept of international institutions which are necessary to support thriving democratic institutions throughout the world. The institutions that we have are not perfect, but, without them the world cannot provide a framework for justice.
As the results of our failed search for WMD has hilighted, the International Institutions that we employed to keep Iraq from developing and deploying WMD were 100 percent effective. (Remember that the chemical weapons used before sanctions were used BEFORE SANCTIONS not after – and the Reagan/Bush administrations were complicit in their use.)
If you want to support justice … support strong international institutions. Bush’s claim that we needed to go into Iraq to make the UN credible is just so Orwellian that I can’t help cracking a smile when I hear it!
For the Christians out there that support Bush’s war: Remember, Jesus said, “Those that live by the sword shall die by the sword” Matthew 26:52
Also Ghandi said: “Without justice, there can be no peace.”
Support strong international institutions! The International Criminal Court would be a good start.
/// It is a crying shame that these men and women sacrificed just so some nit-wit could use their images to make a bit of “art” that really is nothing but an Anti-Bush political statement. If those shown in the images of this “art” knew that they were being misused in such a way, and that their deaths were being trivialized just so a few morons could get their hate-filled rocks off, they’d be spinning in their graves!
When judging my comments, please know that I am not a “Bush cheerleader”. ///
But you will still vote Bush in the next election? Or you will continue to refuse to criticise his policies? If so then nothing’s going to change. Remember NOTHING’S going to change. As in NOTHING! And I’ll stop there since I don’t want to be accused of or perceived as being ungratful to the army, navy or the airforce! Sheesh!
To Clockwise in Post No. 701 (and I suppose many others) I have a question.
How long does a solder need to be dead before we can remember them in public? A day, a week, 20 years, when nobody can remember them anymore, when they become only a forgotten name on a wall?
I built a memorial wall that uses the faces of the coalition casulties to bring us “face to face with one of the costs of the war.” Is this memorial offensive to you too?
http://www.tariffville.org/iraqmemorial.htm
To me, this Memorial Wall speaks of great tragedy.
What bothers me is the fact that we went into Iraq for faulty reasons. Had we declared that we were going into Iraq for the sake of those who live there, it would be a completely different story. However, we did not and we have lost the lives of 600 soldiers in Iraq. Very very sad.
/// Support strong international institutions! The International Criminal Court would be a good start. ///
Hear hear! But what do think that will do to our policies on the rest of the world? First off we are the ones who will vehemently oppose to such a court (in fact if my memory serves me right we already have) since “protecting us” is above all else our top priority— even at the expense of denying justice, denying “atrocities” (yes those things do not only happen in third world dictatorships) or denying fairness (ie, we are seen as above everyone else, above justice)
Secondly, those in power (ie Bush) would be susceptible to such trials if it were ever took place (even tho the chances of that is next to nil). Ther mere fact it COULD take place, scares the hell out of the government. Therefore, we will take no chances.
Third, unless we fundamentally change our psyche on the rest of the non-American world or that we trust foreigners more then I’m afraid the US participating in an international court is not going to happen.
/// Jonas…as another former vet who served in operation desert shield and enduring freedom……….Youre full of shit. And that is that. ///
One’s bullshit is another’s golden goose egg.
Now I’m full of shit! hehe
Yeah, it’s a nice little picture, you obviously dont’ seem to get the big picture. Those brave men and women put thier lives on the line to protect your right to do things such as this. Why not thank these brave soldiers instead of trivialising the sacrafices they have made to prove a political point. So you don’t like our president, don’t exploit our brave men and women for your political agenda. Are you familiar with the term hero? Those faces all have familes and loved ones behind them…… have a little compassion and respect.
すごいですね。
本当に殺人犯人見たい
Wow, that picture is utterly ridiculous. The problem with people who do art such as this is that they forget the fact that TERRORISTS are the ones killing American Soldiers. I could make a much much more impressive and larger mosaic of all the dead iraqis saddam has killed in the past. I could also make a much bigger one of all the people Al Qaeda killed on Sept 11.
You should be ashamed you are using people who are dying for you to perpetuate your pathetically unitelligent political agenda. How many of those soldiers do you think would approve use of their pictures to make George Bush look bad? Very few I bet. I can guarantee you most of their families would never consent to this.
To everyone who asks these ludicrous questions I will have a little FAQ session:
Why did we go into Iraq without Un approval!!? Bring the world into it!!!
-The UN became irrelevent when it passed resolutions requiring Saddam’s regime to destroy weapons left over from Desert Storm and afterwards. Also, to turn over certain documents. The UN determined Iraq was not living up to the resolution-yet, they decided to play with their thumbs instead of holding Saddam accountable. When the US brought up the proposal of invading Iraq top UN officials quickly squelched that idea because they were receiving cheap oil through the food for oil program with Iraq. Top UN officials made millions off these illegal dealings. Saddam not in power=No more illegal oil. Additionally, other countries were receiving oil as well from Saddam (France, Russia).
Why does the middle east hate us? They hate us because they are led by religious leaders who generally have total control over the people. A democracy in the middle east scares them. Do you think Iran wants to be sandwiched between Afghanistan and a democratic Iraq? I THINK NOT
Why should I not vote for John Kerry?
John Kerry’s biggest problem is that he cant make up his mind. Two days ago he told the auto workers in Michigan he has lots of SUV’s and supports them by owning these large vehicles. Then today, during an environmental conference he says he doesnt have any SUV’s-his family does. What the hell is that? Kerry approved troops to be sent to Iraq then didnt vote for additional tools to be sent to keep our soliders alive. He can’t make up his mind. Kerry is one of the most liberal people ever to serve in UN Govt as a democrat. He consistently votes to the extreme left.
WHy does the US want to invade iraq?
-People are so dumb. Everyone is so quick to blame the United States for playing policeman of the world. But you know what, the world has asked for it. Whenever there is a huge conflict, the US has to lay down its hand to restore justice. Germany seems to have no recollection of what happened 60 yrs ago in their backyard and how Americans and British liberated them. Then to top it off we completely rebuild they country that they destroyed. But alas, no appreciation. Its similar In korea..all the older Koreans welcome the American troops on the peninsula but the radial unexperienced younger generation views americans as invaders in their country. Its even worse there-they dont even realize if the US left south korea, north korea could have a field day across the DMZ.
Bottom line:Appeasement never works. Lotta democrats and liberals seem to love appeasement.
I believe the terrorists have won… when we as Americans are unable to simply visit the statue of liberty because it is closed as a result of 9/11 then terrorists win. I am so tired of hearing about 9/11 and how terrorists attacked our country when we live in a nation where we are murdered and raped by fellow Americans on a daily basis. I think we need to clean up our own country first before we go patrolling the world condemning everyone else. Maybe al-qeada is acting out much like george washington did with the british… But the fact is just the mere sight of our current president and his idiotic smirk and retarded look makes terrorist want to attack… Anybody but bush 2004!
Maybe if America would quit getting involved in other countries and taking sides then American soldiers would be less likely sent to clean up the mess…. Saddam use to be supported by the US in fact we are the country responsible for supplying Iraq with the chemical weapons he used to kill Iranians and his own people with… we never said anything about that at the time in fact we gave him more weapons to kill with… America creates the problems then back peddles to correct it and it gets our troops dead.
oh yes osama was trained and supplied by the USA to kill russians in afghanistan… now he is killing us. Maybe america would be better off not supplying our enemies to begin with.
I once volunteered to put my face on such a mosaic. Unless you’ve done that, you just don’t get it! I love my country and my President! I still have my medals! I would never disgust my fellow soldiers by slighting their signifiance! I support George Bush!
It’s very sad to see how many americans die in Iraq… In Russia we had the same with Chechnya… The problem is that Chechnya is our territory, our country and we are fighting against separatism and what are US soldiers are doing in Iraq? It was one of the calmest country in the Middle East. Even Saudy Arabia did much more for the Al-Qaeda, but USA don’t touch it because it’s official “friend” and you have military bases there… And Iraq had only oil, a lot of oil… And company Halliburtun with the Texas president (also from oil family) decided to enlarge their oil-fields…
In Afganistan I hope US will be able to destroy Al-Qaeda, but in Iraq, I’m sorry I hope it’ll be the second Vietnam.
//OMG, INSTEAD OF THOSE SOCI COMMI LIBERAL SOBS SUPPORTING THE TROOPS THEY USE THEM TO MAKE A POLITICAL STATEMENT. SHAME ON ETHOS EBASTARDS I HOPE THEY DIE IN HELL!!!!!!!!//
Completely ignorant statement!!
The fact of the matter is this; we are in Iraq now and we have to remain,if we pull out now the country will fall into uncertain civil war.The world will look to the U.S. as the cause of this.
The issue with Iraq has always been a UN problem,when they aggreed to a cease-fire it was with the UN not the US.
Regardles of how “soft” Bush felt the UN was being on Iraq,it was thier responsibility to deal with the country.
Instead of waiting for the rest of the world to help with this situation Bush jumps the gun and invades.
This war(undeclared) has cost over 100 billion dollars and counting.
This war has cost many soildiers,civilians,kids,ederly there lives,homes and families.
Do you people supporting Bush realize that there are talks of another DRAFT.
Do you people realize how thin the military is spread,god forbid N.Korea invade S.Korea because guess who is bound by contract to protect them?
The president we have now is a coward plain and simple and now he is using the military to help his family and friends richer at the expense of soilders lives
//I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1).
I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.//-post 345
The sad thing is everything mentioned in post 345 is TRUE.
And this is the guy “diligently leading” our nation please if any danger came within 2 miles of him he would stick his head
As Iv’e said in another post of mine I am not a big Kerry fan,but Bush has proven himself incapable to run the country
to anyone of you big time Bush supporters PLEASE read post 345 discredit 1 claim and then List 1 thing he has done during his term that hasnt brought some kind of turmoil excluding Afgan.(that was his one good deed)
Remember vote in september 🙂
Anybody but Bush
Send Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Powell, Baker, Christopher, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Feith, Kristol, and all those neocon bastards to the front lines.
Anybody but Bush is a pretty good second choice. But I still prefer NONE OF THE ABOVE.
ONLY 600 PEOPLE?! Do you have a child? Imagine your child, and 599 of their friends and school mates being murdered. Imagine that their death could have been prevented! what would you do?
*716
Dimitry…..Russians fight for oil aswell…what’s the difference then?? you can call it “fight against separatism” … are sure about that?
I just think that they are young guys and girls fighting and dying in a country so much far from their home. I really hope that their sacrifice would be not vain.
According to Woodward’s interview, Bush has no remorse over his actions in Iraq. Therefore he must feel that the investment in over 800 American lives is worth whatever he is hoping to accomplish. Bush is going to save the Iraqi’s whether they want it or not. He is a Uniter not a Divider. The trouble is he’s uniting the people who hate America and creating a larger base of enemies. My question has always been, what threat did Iraq pose to this country? The Bushies answer in abstacts about what Saddam might have done or how many of his own people he killed. HOW MANY AMERICANS DID HE KILL!!!!! We are investing the lives of our young to accomplish a goal that I’m not even sure that the Iraqi people want so is it worth the investment? I believe not. He is becoming a despot and because of the attack on the trade towers Americans are allowing it to happen. Americans needed a villain after the events of 9/11 but not a scape goat. Saddam was a horrible ruler and cowardly old man who committed atrocities against his own people but I ask again, with no WMD and no ties to the terrorists of 9/11 where was the threat to this country?
Speaking of no remorse
http://www.officialspin.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=1404
To John Richmond.
“Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear—kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor—with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant funds demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real.”
—General Douglas MacArthur1
By the way, can anyone tell a year when USA DIDN`T fought a war during the last 100 years? A peace loving country isn`t it!
We have fought wars, we have lost wars and won wars. War is in human nature and we cannot deny that. War has traditional been over money and land and used religion as a scapegoat. This war is no different from any other, Bush wants the oil in the middle east as im sure every other economy in the world would love to have. We are the ones willing to fight for it, like lions fighting over a kill in the desert we are the only ones fighting for that piece of meat. Except we are fighting townspeople who dont want us here. As im sure ANY one of you would do if the Iraqi Army or any army came into your town and was going house to house robbing, burning, bombing, and arresting your fathers, brothers, sons, uncles. Destroying your cars, crops, right to bare arms, religious views, ways of life, and ultimately your life its self. I doubt anyone is reading this being so far down on a page of concerns from people around the world. But if anyone is reading this do your part and vote against presdient bush fore this will soon be the beginning of a long painful point in man kinds history only for gold and riches. As we will start a draft soon you who said this war is just and people are over there to help will soon find your self in a nieborhood on the other side of the world thinking about some fo the things I have said here. Than can you really blame themn for shooting back at you? For taking away the only leader who could control the middle east, granted he was a harsh man and he killed alot of people, we have managed to double his rate of deaths per day every day we are over there. He was a harsh man who had no intentions of taking iver the US or any other country because Sadamm had no army after 10 years ago. Now like vietnam we are finding ourselfs on the break of a new vietnam but the stakes are higher and if we lose this war we sell the farm. So ask yourself look back at vietnam, would you want to bet your life or your sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts life upon this?…
I like this picture, but what about dead Iraqi ? Too many to make a mosaic…
Perhaps one could try with just the children under 10 ?
I’d like to see a mosaic of Bush and all the dead Iraqi civilians….. What is it up to, 10,000???
Definitivamente conmovedor… ojal sirva a los americanos para pensar mucho su voto en noviembre, se les desea que sea lo mejor porque sin duda lo que hace “El gran gigante” nos afecta a todos. good luck in november!!!
The Passion of USA by Bush
Owned
I am a real American Soldier………I pray that if I die in a fire fight tonight that my picture is not dirtied by it being placed into an image such as you have made. It would be a dishonor and a disservice to my name and family. SSG Hooah – US Marine / US Army Paratrooper. http://ourworld.cs.com/dlastfirebase/myhomepage/personal.html
Clever collage.
People that try and justify this war (to put themselves at ease) are simply and FOOLING THEMSELVES. Sadly some have become so indoctrinated that they are at a stage where they will blindly follow the American government, no matter how sinister it’s intentions.
Where were the “freedom forces” just over 10 years ago when ~ ONE MILLION Rwandan people died in unimaginable genocide? That what I’d like to know, and WHY.
Greed. Energy Crisis. Secularization. Globalization. Capitalism. Acculturation.
^ Chose your Iraq War II descriptor(s) using your own FREE WILL. You won’t hear these reasons on the *ahem* “News”.
CBS 60 Minutes II tonight
many questinos on Iraqi sentiment are answered on the program
In Russia we even have a theory that air atack on twin-towers was planed by CIA to justify war in Iraq, again “terrorism”. And actually I won’t be very surprised if it’s true. USA really did everything to start this war… and there is a theory of “new things”. Everything new is rather agressive, because it has to fight for the place under the sun. Islam – is a new religion, and they are very agressive. USA is a new country… We have a saying (like a joke) that Russian were fighting with Mongols for 200 years and Columb still had revealed the America.” So you are very agressive also but covering with the democracy shield.
But the funny thing is that you can’t go away. If I was an american in this situation I would support Bush just becouse you don’t have way out. First of all you’ve already spent SO MUCH money! (about 110 bln if im correct, and pentagon needs more 90bln, just imagine how this money could be spent) so you need Iraq oil to cover military expences and ofcourse to earn something. Then, if you go away – it will show that you were wrong starting this war and Bush should be juged by the International Court. Then it’ll be a huge hit for American ideology of unbeatable country… you have super missiles, ships, inviseable airplanes, commandos (in every movie one commandos can kill half of the Iraq, so you just need a couple of them) and Iraq people have only AK-47 and granades… And spaeking about terrorism, which you are fighting with. Before the war with USA it was usual country with strong leader who controlled all kinds of religions. Now it’s really a territory for agressive islamik movements, after they fight with you they will fight with each other, it’ll be like Afganistan.
By the way another russian joke: What is the difference between Iraq and USA? One is terroristic country with the blody, greedy, agressive leaders, and the second one is a state in Middle East.
Do you really think (believe) that Iraq was an enemy ? FOOL !
Saddam never attacked western countries ! The islamists were his enemies, US and other western countries helped him since 20 years, even when he killed about 50,000 of his own people and joyfully when he attacked Iran (which is a democracy ! – isn’t that strange in that part of the world ?).
Now, as was obvious, Iraq has been given to the islamists.
And remember : the US helped the islamists (Bin Laden’s talibans) in Afghanistan against the Soviets, while Europe tried to promote Masud, whom the talibans killed (with a camera-gun). You know what happened after that…
And also : who was the ally of all US governments during the last 50 years in Middle-East ? The WORST dictatorship in the world imho, I mean wahabbit Saudi Arabia (see how they treat women and non-muslims) – who trained all muslim teachers that went over the world ; just see the result now.
Etc… Nothing left to do for us but cry and despair.
무고한 이라크 민중과 젊은 청년들을 죽음으로 몰아넣은 부시대통령은 각성하라!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-gallup-iraq-findings.htm
A poll that say that the Iraqis want USA out of Iraq. Note that 36% say they are not freer to speak their mind and those who say they are freer to speak their mind may very well say this because their are afraid of the consequences if they spek their mind (imagine what answer you would give if an arab occupying your country if you where given the same question). If arabs had done this poll (without the controll of the occupying force) the outcome would doubtlessly been even more significant.
Guess the corporate patriots (in contrast to the real patriots, those who follow Thomas Jefferson and see “Dissent is the highest form of patriotism” ) have to fake up a new reason to occupy Iraq (and pretend it got nothing to do with oil).
see 733.
Hundreds of years ago, your forefathers rolled into the vast frontier and called it your own. Now, you Americanised the world and called it freedom, democracy etc. Its true when they said that history has always been written by those in power. Someday I hope some other power will occupy US in the name of another political ideology. And if that day ever happens, please do not form resistance and be suicide bombers, cos then you are no different from those that you labelled today.
FR
126 dead soldiers in April.
Too bad they didn’t wait til now, they could have added a “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED” banner in the background
with the new faces !
Might be worth mentioning, that all of the pictures must be on there two or three times (There are 31 across by 47 down which means 1457 pictures.) I believe there have �only� been around 500-600 soldiers that have died. It�s still a moving image, though.
Comment by Andrew � Wednesday April 7, 2004 @ 7:05 am
I think that, if George isn’t stopping that war soon, there will be enough pictures of victims to update this portrait without multiple uses of mosaic parts. Today are already enough victims (735 right now) to use them just twice for that mosaic. But other than that, it is a waste of those mosaic parts, to render a portrait of that guy! This is really sad! 🙁
The Iraq problem:
1. With the cooperation of the CIA, Saddam Hussein killed the communist leader of Iraq in a coup.
2. Iraq attacked Iran in favor of Western states so that 2 strong middle-eastern powers would demolish themselves militarly and economically.
3. During this bloody conflict, Western states supplied Iraq chemical weapons(United States,Great-Britain,France).
4. In 1988 , the Iraqi regime started operation “Anfal” of ethnic cleansing of the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Here Iraq(Saddam Hussein) used 13 chemical attacks on Kurdish inhabited areas killing an estimated 100.000 civilians.
Also during this operation 180.000 Kurds were captured and even today their faith is unknown.
5. In early 1990 the United States is willing to improve relations with Iraq. This after the chemical warfare of Iraq earlier.(so it didn’t bother the US).
6. In mid-1990 Iraq occupies Kuwait because of accuses of oil-theft from the southern Iraqi Oilfields.
The USA now had a perfect reason to destroy Iraq as the only middle-eastern/arab superpower with a smart population.
(Note: Iraq had more than a million soldiers by then creating the 4th largest army in the world)
7. As history tells us that the USA is Israel-sided and Israel feared of Iraq being a superpower because it is an Arab state. That the 1991 Gulf war was on behalf of Israel.
8. During the 6-week mass bombing of Iraq and Kuwait, the coalition destroyed electricity plants,water supplies,medicine factories,telecommunication centres…. etc. to destroy Iraq so that it wouldn’t bother Western states in the future economicly. The US didn’t help the uprising of the kurds and shias not because of keeping the rules of the UN( they didn’t respect it now in 2003), Their mission was to “remove Iraqi troops from Kuwait”, not to bomb Baghdad and entire Iraq!!! They just didnt want the uprisings because Iraq would have a normal government which could get very rich. USA wants Iraqi oil, not that iraqis get their own oil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
9. The sanctions that were put on Iraq was that the West didn’t want Iraq becoming a rich country , a powerful country.
It killed an estimated 1.500.000 Iraqis, with more than the half children.
Baby birth defects because of Depleted Uranium(you all heard of the Gulf War syndrome) .
Cancer rates went up 7 times higher than before sanctions.
And at last think about it, IF IRAQ USED A WMD AGAINST WHOEVER, IT WOULDNT KILL AS MUCH PEOPLE AS THE SANCTIONS DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10. The lie about WMD: Israel also had weapons of WMD (in 1986 Vanunu told media about his discoveries). Pakistan and India also have. They don’t get any sanctions.
By late 2002 , North korea was 100x a bigger threat to the USA than Iraq: North Korea was working on a nuclear program, has ballistic missiles which can reach San Francisco and Los Angeles and all of Alaska and Hawaï. These missiles can carry nuclear warheads.
North Korea dismissed all IAEA inspectors and removed all camera’s from their reactors.
Iraq let inspectors in for more than 12 years, destroying every factory. In 2002 they accepted resolution 1441 and in early 2003 Iraq destroyed it’s al-Samoud missiles that can reach 150km.
Iraq has the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world, north Korea not.
So why would the US attack Iraq?
11. If the US is wanting to help the Iraqi people then they are too late. Saddam killed,raped,gassed,tortured,burned,hung millions of his own people for 35 years, and now they come? So they don’t want to help Iraqi people.
Last point: As the USA wants it’s biggest embassy in Iraq, Iraqis will not taste their oil for I don’t know how long.
This describes how a new imperialism-era is beginning.
This is a wonderful picture. But it seems that everyone is looking at the negative of the picture. Instead of thinking of the soilders that were killed from the war. Maybe look at it as the soilders that willingly gave their life in support of the cause. Maybe instead of blaming the president, you should wonder about the way the soilders felt when they gave their lives.
/// SADDAM COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS WAR
At anytime Saddam could have shown FULL COMPLIANCE to UN resolutions. (& ceasefire agreement)
To prevent war, Saddam could have left Iraq within the 48 hours given him. ///
Do you think that America deployed 250.000 along with thousands of tanks, planes, helicopter numerous boats , warships………………………………….., to the last 48 hours , if mister Hussein says, here i am?
Forget it, besides the US said no matter if he surrenders on the last 24 hours
Must be true what has been said about a picture and a thousand words…
#744
Just to add more point,
12) even if the only reason for war in Iraq is for their oil then why are we failing that miserably? Gas prices at the pumps are at a all time high! Make you wish we didn’t go to war in the first place.
“748
Oil is a finite resource and the production will soon peak. After that there will be less and less oil. The consequences of this will be imense. Controling the worlds second largest reserves in the world (which happened to be in Iraq) will be an enormuos stratigic advance. Go to http://www.peakoil.net/ (or search Googles for peak oil)
Now that really sets one’s hair on fire!
Unfurl a copy of this across from MSG when the GOP invades NYC so every one of ’em have to see the fruits of their little war.
Behind evry phony president (not to mention: brave, decisive, talking of courage, sacrifice and valor without really serving shoulder to shoulder, steadfast, hatefully angry, armed with personal vendetta and lots of unearned dollars, in the name of terror, boundless arrogance, disregard for American values) – there are many many innocent sacrificed and likely ignored except in a photo-op. Here is one more to the glory of GWB, and Make No Mistake About It. The picture speaks for itself. All the brave soldiers and the artists – America is ever indebted to you.
Ironic isn’t it…
DEAD soldiers making up the image of their KILLER !!! 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁
Bush says he talks to God ……….. God says … Bush, you got some splaining to do !
As we sit here post and argue about the knowledge of the leader of our country, someone somewhere around the world is dying because they are doing the same thing. Take a good look at those faces, they understood that. If you were a citizen in Iraq you would fear for your life doing exactly what you’re doing now, if Saddam was still in power. Think before you post. As sorry as I am for the loss of life of our soldiers in Iraq, i’m even sadder that people don’t think about the cause for their death.
In responce to post #752.
How dare you. You have just degraded the life and death of every single one of those soldiers. BUSH DIDN’T KILL THEM THEY GAVE UP THEIR LIVES FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU. Think of all their families whose only comfort is knowing that their loved ones died for a cause and you don’t have the decency or respect to honor those people. How do you sleep at night? Wheather you support Bush or not you should at least support the soldiers.
Iraq bodycount stand at atleast 8800 lives. We’ve lost over 800 of our men. SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! VOTE BUSH OUT OF OFFICE LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD! Being able to voice my opinion is why my ancestors fought at the Battle of Yorktown in the American Revolution. I can love this country AND VILLIFY the un-president! visit http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com
753,754:
the soldiers pictured died fighting for their beliefs, no different than a suicide bomber. the only difference, the motivations of a suicide bomber are a result of their homeland being attacked.
How people can think that thir soldiers defend thier country in thounds killomitres from motherland?
Usually “defend” means that you are fighting within the borders of your country… everything the rest is called – “invaision”.
Bush family didn’t like Saddam, and they decided with the lives of the US soldiers to take him away…
OK, I don;t like Bush, so I have to ask president Putin to atack USA?
The most terrible thing is that you already have next targets: North Korea, Iran, Syria…
So the more Iraq will fight with USA – the better for the rest of the world. After Vietnam it took you rather long time to kill again…
Ok people it’s time to upgrade your knowledge
Watch PBS’s Frontline tonight,
Frontline: The Jesus Factor
To what extent do the president’s personal beliefs influence his political decision-making
/// Oil is a finite resource and the production will soon peak. After that there will be less and less oil. The consequences of this will be imense. Controling the worlds second largest reserves in the world (which happened to be in Iraq) will be an enormuos stratigic advance. Go to http://www.peakoil.net/ (or search Googles for peak oil) ///
You are still avoiding the question, Why are the gas prices so damn unusually high? I mean are you telling me the war has nothing to do with it? I’m not saying I know alot about the issue but isn’t it curious that gas prices rise at the same time period as when a war is happening? Couldn’t the all time high happen in 2000? 1998? Before the war? Right?
Gas Pump Prices Hit All-Time High-AAA
NEW YORK (Reuters) – U.S. average retail gasoline prices hit an all-time high on Tuesday as a tight-fisted OPEC policy and rising demand constricted supplies, according to the American Automobile Association.
The average price for regular gasoline at the nation’s pumps was $1.738 per gallon, up less than a cent from the previous record hit last September, according to the motorist group’s survey of more than 60,000 stations.
Energy prices have been on the rise in recent months, with U.S. stockpiles near their lowest levels since the 1970s while an economic recovery spurs higher demand.
Oil producer group OPEC, which controls roughly half of the world’s exported crude, is mulling whether to further cut global supplies starting April 1, adding to a series of production cuts that have brought oil prices to nearly $40 a barrel.
The U.S. government on Monday showed gasoline prices less than half a cent from the all-time high, and predicted prices would average a record $1.83 per gallon in April and May during the run-up to the summer driving season when Americans typically take to the road.
The head of the Energy Information Administration, Guy Caruso, said at an oil industry meeting in San Antonio on Monday that he was “really concerned” about thin U.S. gasoline inventories, which are running about 13 million barrels lower than the agency had projected.
The volatile gasoline landscape has drawn the attention of lawmakers from both political parties, making it a likely issue in this presidential election year.
Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden of Oregon on Monday reintroduced a bill requiring the Federal Trade Commission to act on what he called anti-competitive industry pricing policies.
The FTC earlier this month opened an informal probe into California’s retail gasoline prices — the highest in the nation — at the urging of Democratic Sen. Barbara Boxer of California.
Oil and gas refiners have denied using any anti-competitive practices, instead blaming high prices on tight supplies caused by dozens of different gasoline-blending rules for metropolitan areas and the lack of enough imports of the motor fuel.
Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa said soaring gasoline prices are a good reason for the Senate to pass a stalled energy bill.
AAA is the largest motorist and travel group in the United States, with about 44 million members.
http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/123831%7Ctop%7C03-23-2004::10:45%7Creuters.html
Comment by Little Voice — Thursday April 29, 2004 @ 6:19 pm wrote,
As we sit here post and argue about the knowledge of the leader of our country, someone somewhere around the world is dying because they are doing the same thing. Take a good look at those faces, they understood that. If you were a citizen in Iraq you would fear for your life doing exactly what you’re doing now, if Saddam was still in power. Think before you post. As sorry as I am for the loss of life of our soldiers in Iraq, i’m even sadder that people don’t think about the cause for their death.
CORRECTION. THOSE SAME IRAQI CITIZENS FEAR EVEN AFTER SADDAM IS GONE! AND THEIR TORTURE IS JUST AS WORSE AS HOW SADDAM WOULD DO IT- THAT’S RIGHT PAL, I’M TALKING ABOUT AMERICAN TROOPS
TAKE A LOOK
http://www.livejournal.com/users/throwingstardna/513278.html
AND HERE’S WHAT AUTHOR WROTE ABOUT IT,
The Face Of The Occupation Just Got Uglier
Last night, CBS’ 60 Minutes Two aired allegations—supported by numerous photographs and witnesses—that document ( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml ) numerous cases of torture and abuse of Iraqi prisoners inside Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
Amongst the photographs were pictures of prisoners with wires attached to their genitals, prisoners stacked in a pyramid, prisoners forced to simulate oral sex on others, and prisoners who appear to have been beaten to death.
The New York Times is now covering this story ( http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/29/politics/29ABUS.html ). A total of 17 soldiers, including a brigadier general, have been removed from duty as a result ( http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.guard29apr29,0,6084344.story?coll=bal-home-headlines ), and Court-Martials are in the works for at least six soldiers. At least one of those charged blames the military for staffing the prison with reservists, not providing them with procedures for running the facility, and not educating them on the proper treatment of prisoners.
More bad and potentially inflammatory news at a bad time. The pictures are already circulating out there and other articles are already in the works, so it’s a safe bet that the pictures will be broadcast on Arab television very shortly—just like they were on CBS.
Of course, there is deafening silence over at conservatism and the other bastions of righteousness, although you can rest assured that if our POWs were ever treated like this, they’d be howling like rabid banshees—as would I.
Like Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt very correctly stated: “If we can’t hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can’t ask that other nations do that to our soldiers.”
Coalition forces are nothing but bought and paid for killers, defending the system of beliefs they are brainwashed and trained to truly-believe in.Every employed bio-bot serving the military-industrial-pharmaaceutical-educational-political-religious complex is equally guilty as the one who pulls triggers to engage death, for a living.
War is a racket…
~~smedley butler, usmc general
What is called for, on a grass roots level, is a shift in perspective away from political-business as usual. A common amorphous enemy needs to be identified. That common enemy is money. Simply put, money enslaves everyone and everything IT touches, in order to control the destruction that money creates…by design.
We purchase our CULTure. We buy into our own slavery to what enslaves us…money.
Monied reality is an empty reality built of monied lies, death, war, hate, poverty, crime, greed, destruction, denial…etc., practiced religiously.
In short, money causes ALL problems known to humanity.
The reason is because money CREATES all the problems known to humanity.
Yet many knee-jerk defend what is causing their problems, in deep denial because what they have become is too ugly to look at. Instead, the act-out as bit players on a royally inspired monied dream…playing make-believe throughout their lives. Politicial actors playing their part as patriotic true-believers…soldiers protecting slavery to money.
Nothing less than a call to freedom from monied slavery is required to beat the monied beast imho…
To hell with the soldiers of fortune…
Abolish money and live in freedom…or die a slave to money.
Its a choice each of us has to make.
1 Timothy 6:10
Life-death choices for the eternal soul.
Money is the tooled-machined root for all evil.
Salvation for the soul is not cash-based…
David Roblee
North Pole Ak
#759
I agree -it is a complex matter but lets examine some factors. 1) Euro has risen against dollar quite drastically during the last years. Partial y this is due to Arab countries switching from dollar to Euro (Iran and even Iraq had done this- an often overlooked cause for the US occupation of Iraq- one of Bush first actions was to chance Iraqs oil trade back to dollar). In any case the oil price in Europe has been pretty stable. 2) China is growing in an immense pace- competing with US and the western world about the dwindling oil production. 3) The oil producer over estimate their reserves – the depletion goes faster then they want to admit. 4) Iraqi oil has not risen to it´s previous hight (even though US claim it now is about the same- a doubtful statement). You can find more interesting facts at http://www.peakoil.net/Newspapers/Aarticles.html .
Peace
I must be an asshole, because you all say how deeply moved and touched you are, but to me it’s just a clever image.
Rob (702): I could live with an argument. With a critical assessment of my perceived mistakes. Maybe of one that simply outlines your disagreement. Your way of reasoning, however (“I am …, you are …”), which seeks to establish legitimation and then uses none of that legitimation to actually make a point other than to blanket-statement an opinion, is non-conducive to any discussion and a disgrace to soldiers and former soldiers anywhere.
If you believe the current command is a good one, if you believe we are doing food work in Iraq (and don’t even get me started on the ‘we are doing G-d’s work’ idiocy), if you think those deaths were for something good – then say so. Contradict me.
You, of all people, should know that any command that so grossly bases on hubris, miscalculations, and personal preferences, would get the commanding officer an Art. 32 and more. In this case, the commander has misled his superiors (“We, the people of the United States of America..”, and has sent his subordinates into a situation that was based solely on the factors above. Without that hubris, without the personal preferences, with more time to prepare, to gain international support, and to fill in the blanks, some of those who have died needlessly, disarming a Dictator who needed no disarmament, could still be alive.
Saddam posed no immediate threat to the world, the region, and most importantly to America. We have wasted and reversed the goodwill, the heartfelt support, of the world over a few men and women’s personal crusade. We are endangering our brothers and sisters in arms in Afghanistan by diverting huge amounts of logistics and manpower to Iraq, and we have created a situation that will remain a boiling pot of violence for decades to come, endangering our allies in the region as well as the people of Iraq to a much bigger extent than they were. Had we waited, had we given it thought and had we remained calm, we could have created a free Iraq – with military means, yes, and through the sacrifice of soldiers – and could have done so in a way that would have made sense.
This is my opinion. One that I stand behind with a full name and means to contact me. One that I will defend with the same fervor and zeal I will defend my belief in the necessity of military actions in some cases, the right of the fallen to have a voice, and the right of the people of the United States of America, to know the truth. I am pitting those things against you, someone who neither states his name, nor gives me a chance to contact him off-band. I am a soldier. I will not hide cowardly. Take me to task, if you will, but take me to task with the same honors as I extend to you.
tHE SOURCE OF TERRORISUM IS AGRESSION BY CERTAIN COUNTRY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THAT DOESN’T LET PALESTINIAN ESTABLISH THERE OWN COUTRY. ONLY THAT ISSUE MUST BE ADRESS TO ELIMINATE TERORYSUM. EVERYTHING ELSE IS JUST CRAP AND PROPAGANDA. I DOUBT IF HERE YOU COULD EXPRESSED FREELY YOUR THOUGHTS.
tHE SOURCE OF TERRORISUM IS AGRESSION BY CERTAIN COUNTRY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THAT DOESN’T LET PALESTINIAN ESTABLISH THERE OWN COUTRY. ONLY THAT ISSUE MUST BE ADRESS TO ELIMINATE TERORYSUM. EVERYTHING ELSE IS JUST CRAP AND PROPAGANDA. I DOUBT IF HERE YOU COULD EXPRESS FREELY YOUR THOUGHTS.
I am against this war. I think the photos of the dead soldiers should be shown. But I am still offended by this image, not because the mosaic forms Bush’s face, but because dead young soldiers are being used to make a political statement. It’s a neat-o effect that I have seen used in United Way ads … but in this case it is in extremely poor taste. Whether the cause was worthy or not, many of these young soldiers thought it was and they sacrificed their lives for it. We should honor them by using constructive means to end this, not by using their deaths as fodder. This image is opportunistic, cynical, immature and divisive … things we have plenty of already.
This war is not on Iraq. It is a safety precaution. If you don’t have the sense to realize that, you don’t deserve to have your rights protected by these brave soldiers. There is no draft. All of these soldiers were volunteers. They knew what they were signing up for when they took that oath. If they were not over there protecting your liberties, you would be hearing of attacks like 9/11 all the time.
This war is not on Iraq. It is a safety precaution. If you don’t have the sense to realize that, you don’t deserve to have your rights protected by these brave soldiers. There is no draft. All of these soldiers were volunteers. They knew what they were signing up for when they took that oath. If they were not over there protecting your liberties, you would be hearing of attacks like 9/11 all the time.
Someone on this forum stated that we had to go to war with Iraq to stop a dictator who killed his own people and took away their rights. Using this logic, does this mean that America should expect to be invaded by another country for the same reasons? I come from a military family. Every branch of the armed services has been represented by members of my family. My partner is a navy vet. My brother and cousin served during the first Gulf war. I love my country. However, I know that patriotism is not blindly following whatever your president says. The current policy of glossing over our fallen soldiers disturbs me. There is an old saying that goes ‘out of sight, out of mind’. Our lost soldiers have been reduced to statistics, and that isn’t right. If it were my son, my brother or sister, my friend (one of whom was killed in Afghanistan), I would want to world to know of their life and their sacrifice. I wouldn’t want them to be forgotten. I love my country. I support our troops and those of our allies, but I fear our government.
#761
So you’re basically saying (and there is evidence of it since you direct attention on those sites you gave me) this war in Iraq is because of oil, to secure “oil”.
Now my question is what do you think that says to the average Iraqi citizen who thought “liberation” and “freedom” was supposed to be the reason, not merely a ‘side-effect’ of an entirely different and selfish cause?
/// Money is the tooled-machined root for all evil.
Salvation for the soul is not cash-based…
David Roblee
North Pole Ak ///
You know David, I’ve been thinking along the same lines as well. And I do very much agree with you that ‘Money’ is the ‘evil’ of the world. Just look at how happy cashless based societies are living (and by cashless I don’t just mean paying for products and services with your mom and dad’s credit card, I mean the elimination of all forms of curreny as we know it), from the bushmen of southern Africa to remote regions of the Siberian nomads…. generally speaking they live happier carefree lives than the rest of us– worrying about our next bill payments than anything else.
However, at the same time, the advancement of technology, the way we’re living now, the houses we live in and the buliding we work in, essentially everything we know what we know about living in the modern (civilized) world are all due to, one way or another, money! Your house or apartment you live can be build because of decades, actually centuries, of research and refinment and technology all funded by the almighty dollar (or gold or silver or shilling) ….your rooftop, your wind-proof, rain-proof, snow-proof windows, your garage, your toilet, the amenities in your home– the chair, the sofa, the fork and plate designs, the wallpaper –all of them are due to the power and influence of money. The saying ‘Money Makes The World Go Round’ couldn’t be more true!
At the same time tho, as many advantages and benefits that money provides for the world, there are equally as many disadvantages and harm that money brings to the world. The atomic bomb for instance, the “diamond” trade, the “arms” trade, war-basically…. and not just any small battles with small arms and relatively bloodless fights but I’m talking about WW2, vietnam, Gulf, Kosovo, Rwandan civil war, which sophisticated modern technologies are used to maximize damage. And corruption and greed and other criminal acts can often be attributed to money.
Thus, if you step back and examine the issue of money, the one question you might want to ask is when is “enough is enough”? We know the world has benefited immensely from the funding of modern technology and all technology we’re enjoying now, from the car you drive to the theme part rides in Disneyland, is due thanks to money. On the other side of the coin, we also know money corrupts, it breeds hatred, it breeds jealousy, it hurts people, it also murders!
And one would ask what if we were to abandon money altogether? To say “enough is enough”… of course the conventional answer would be No Way Jose! That wouldn’t practical and it would be counter productive etc etc…
But then if we keep on going at the rate we’re going, sooner or later, that negative part about money grow every more bigger, ever more uglier…. the depletion of oil today might very well be trees tomorrow, might be water the next, and air next after…. as long as we are “rich” enough to buy off those things versus the ones who isn’t rich enough to afford them. And what I’m getting at is that I’m not at all denying the benefits that money gave us, the techonology that money brings to the world, the knowledge and knowhow (I’m not saying to throw all that in the garbage) but I’m saying since we know alot already, we know how to bulid efficient houses, confortable houses, how to bulid cars, how geomentry works, how sciences work, how to mass produce food supply, basically how to live the way we live now….. if we were to take money away from the everyday equation, in my humble opinion and all else remains the same, it could work! Go ahead and work as the way we do now…. less wages and salaries…. but then what do you do with the food and shelter problems. We use alturism as a community…. as local communities to help eachother out. If our neighbour needs a home, we all chip in and build him/ her a home with his/ her specification, sort of like habitat for humanity…… someone need repairs, go fix it…. soemone need food? need vegetables? give portions from farms or distribute food supply just like what we’re doing now, in markets, except instead of buying foods, people can grab a ration or grab whatever they need that day, if I want vegatable soup for dinner, just take vegatables and leave the meats out…. etc etc etc.
No end in sight and no plan in sight. No logical forethoughtin sight. If it doesn’t seem sensless, check your premises.
Bush is the biggest disgrace of president since Nixon, but even Nixon didnt say words like, “nucular” and “strategery”. At least Nixon wasn’t a fumbling, hand held, frat-boy-moron! I can’t wait till he’s gone this year!
Great Mosaic,
It is sad what have we accomplished in FIL mission in Iraq, our boys honorably gave their lives and I think this Mosaic should be posted on Arlington National Cemitary in Washington D.C.
It’s sad that we use pictures of falen comrades to decorate the portrait of Chief in Staff of US Military, however It is great done job. May God Bless all of troops expecially comrades who gave their lives in Iraq, their families and friends.
Funny that the “yawning boy” incident didn’t make it to the national news. Although, CNN and Letterman certainly talked about it. It is beyond hysterical to watch this young boy yawn and carry on behind ole GW while he does his speech. This is the link:http://www.local6.com/news/2969328/detail.html
here it is y’all! yawning boy behind bush as he speaks
http://www.local6.com/news/2969328/detail.html
to: Sam
poor americans…. morrendo por ordem de um estúpido….
I can’t read these anymore……..the lot of you make me ill. Lets just turn it all over to the UN…yes the UN the very same ones that brought us Bosnia, Rowanda, Mogodishu(however you spell it) and left them at our (USA) doorstep. The very same UN that couldn’t run a ‘Meals-on-Wheels’ program without graft and corruption.
Yes you idiots, we did it for the oil…. thats why we’re paying $1.80 per gallon.
Wake up, pull your collective heads out of your asses and smell the anthrax.
Kiss my ass, good-bye and may God bless.
as I look at this picture it hurts my heart. I just put both of my boys to bed. One is 9 and the other is 5. I can not imagine how the parents of the boys and girls are feeling tonight. For God said that children are a gift from him….we just never know how long we have them. I hope each of these family members find peace in God for their loss and for their futures.
Americans appoint Saddam lookalike
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=494092004
IN the old days, just the sight of his drab green uniform was enough to strike fear into rebel Iraqi hearts.
As a commander of Saddam Hussein’s elite Republican Guard, General Jassim Mohamed Saleh was part of the army that crushed countless insurrections.
Yesterday, though, in a remarkable case of poacher turned gamekeeper, United States forces named the former Baathist as the leader of a 1,000-strong Iraqi force to quell the insurgency in Fallujah.
Last night, as marines rolled up their barbed wire blockades before pulling out of the city, he was preparing to take over after a day with local tribal leaders. He also met US commanders while clad in his old military fatigues, garb he last wore in front of Saddam’s brutal son, Qusay, who was head of the Republican Guard.
Washington officials claim to be surprised at the decision by marines in Fallujah to cede power to a former regime member. But according to commanders there, political niceties have been sacrificed to simple battlefield pragmatism. After three weeks of fighting that killed up to 800 people, they have decided they have neither the local knowledge nor the local credibility to tackle the 2,000-odd militants there.
Cynics, however, wonder whether Washington is really so out of the loop as it claims to be, pointing out that today is more than just another day in Iraq’s post-war calendar – 1 May, 2003, was when George Bush, the US president, officially declared combat operations over. The sight of US marines battling it out in Fallujah exactly a year later might make glum viewing back home.
But while the move might cheer those in the US, what remains of his fan club in Iraq is less happy. Although Gen Saleh was not on any US-wanted list of Baathist war criminals, he was a dyed-in-the-wool part of the old regime and his public rehabilitation appalls some.
“The US has slipped into the swamp in Iraq and now they are trying to hang on any rope to get them out,” said a colonel who knew Gen Saleh. “They do not care whether he was in the Baath Party or not. All they are interested in is suppressing the militants.
“What message does this send out? That the Americans have no principles – they just want to keep their own a**** safe.”
A prominent figure in the al-Jubouri tribe, which has its power base in the old Sunni heartlands around Fallujah, noted Gen Saleh was a level-two Baath member, a position of power and privilege normally only earned by paying more than lip service to Saddam. And in 1991, when Shiites rebelled, he was among those ordered to crush it by all means necessary.
It is perhaps no coincidence that Iraq’s civilian governor, Paul Bremer, announced a scrapping of the ban on top level Baath Party members from public life just two weeks ago.
However, sorting out who was a real villain and who merely followed Saddam’s orders is not easy. Many Iraqi commanders who carried out brutal operations are respected today. Only those such as Saddam’s cousin, “Chemical” Ali Hussein al-Majeed, who applied a personal gusto to their work, are reviled. Gen Saleh belongs largely in the former category, say officers who knew him. “He was a tough guy, but a gentleman, who was a general because he was properly trained, not because he was close to Saddam,” one said.
re war dead mosaic
Mandatory viewing for all who still don’t get it!
Let me begin by stating that I have been against this second war on Iraq before, during and ‘after’ the war. Not because I’m pro-Saddam, left-wing, or pacifist. Not because I have an adamant belief that Bush went to war to further his or his friends interests. I am and have been opposed to the war simply because the decisionmakers to a large extent ignored the principles that *must* apply to any decision regarding warfare made by a democratic state adhering to the rule of law:
1. The war must have ample justification
2. The war must be legal
3. All relevant information should be as publically available as possible
4. The decisionmakers must not only be held accountable for their decision, but should also of their own volition take responsibility for both the good and the bad.
Did the war have ample justification? Not really:
Only a very small number of countries, most notably the US, believed that Saddam posed an immediate threat to the world. The UN as an institution certainly didn’t believe so, seeing as it’s inspectors asked for more time and professed hope for the cooperation of Iraq; neither did the majority of the members of the Security Council, nor the vast majority of the countries in this world. In essence the US pretty much unilaterally made the decision to wage war on a people, and it did so based on very uncertain intelligence reports, which in some cases were proven to be outright fabrications.
The coalition was more intent on removing Saddam than on any real long term security. It invaded and occupied a country, in which a very big part of the residents for various reasons hate the US, and it did so knowing that because of the lack of international support, the vast majority of the ‘peace-keeping’ forces would be US forces – despite the fact that those forces, while excelling in attack strategies, are unsuited for such a job. And yet there weren’t any worthwhile plans to reduce post-war tensions; to reduce the risk of Iraq turning into just another Iran (which would make it more dangerous than a Saddam-governed Iraq); to rebuild an Iraq, whose infrastructure and people were brought to their knees by wars and sanctions; to increase the democratic views in a people, that has never known democracy. All the coalition had was the unjustified hope, that if just Saddam was removed, the Iraqi people would embrace both democracy and the Western world. The Iraqi people is currently only marginally better off in terms of violent deaths, and while we have no way yet of knowing if the security issue will improve, the lack of plans has greatly attributed to opposing this.
While the ideal of changing the Iraqi form of government from dictatorship to democracy might be seen as ‘noble’, as a *justification* it implies double standards on several levels: Firstly, the vast majority of dictators will not be dealt with. Secondly, the US will continue to directly or indirectly support various dictatorships. And thirdly, and this cannot be stressed enough, the justification of changing the form of government would work for islamists (caliphat in stead of democracy), communists (communism in stead of democracy), etc. as well.
In essence the justification was lacking in merit, which is probably the reason the coalition countries keep changing the ‘real’ reason for the war.
Was the war legal?
The coalition argues that the combination of Security Council resolutions 1441 (2002), 687 (1991), and 678 (1990) legitimizes the war. At the same time both the Security Council and the UN weapon inspectors *opposed* that the situation should call for war, thereby clearly leaving the coalition attack without a UN mandate. Furthermore *very* few lawyers versed in international law agree with coalition statements – see for instance http://www.the-rule-of-law.com/.
In essence, the war was unlawful because Saddam didn’t pose a serious enough threat to warrant war – but at the same time neither the Security Council nor the Worldcourt can condemn it, because the US shall ‘veto’ any attempt for the to do so.
Was the relevant information available for people to make up their own minds in a democratic manner? No:
None of the doubts expressed in intelligence reports were ever made publicly available. In stead coalition countries all as one emphasized only the ‘proof’ of Saddam’s WMDs – proof that to a not insignificant extent has been proven to be *fabricated* for the occasion. Furthermore even after intelligence repports to a large extent are now only of historical relevance, coalition countries still to the largest degree possible try to keep them suppressed. Bush and Blair were brought to their knees before agreeing to commissions, and in several other coalition countries, the governments have still managed to avoid this.
In essence the shown behavior goes against *everything* democracies should in fact be trying to protect.
Have the decisionmakers shown the responsibility we should expect of them with regards to a decision as grave as waging war on a people? No:
They keep changing the ‘real’ reason for the war. They keep hiding behind a UN mandate that doesn’t exist. Some of them use the morals of christianity as an excuse, while negating the fact that Christ would *never* under any circumstances condone the killing of anyone, much less innocent people.
I started by saying I was and am against the war, and that is true. However, I do believe that Saddam was a problem, and I would’ve supported the war if he had been more of a threat – as I supported the first Gulf war – or if the UN had believed in the necessity of the war. Lacking this, I would still probably have accepted the war if the coalition had in fact found WMDs or at least had the common sense to have made plans concerning the post-war situation. As it is, the war was totally unjustifiable, and may still prove to cause a greater risk to world security than if no action had been taken. And this is contradictory to any principles of a democracy that adheres to the rule of law and to human rights.
—
Apart from the above, the mostly unilateral decision of the US has caused a great rift in the Western society. The populations of Europe are in increasing numbers starting to believe that the countries of Israel and the US are *the* two countries posing the greatest danger to world peace. Firstly, the US has had and to some extent still has a counter productive policy of supporting dangerous people: Terrorist organisations, dictators, etc. Secondly, the US seemingly cares *only* about US interests – not world interests. For instance the country wages wars unilaterally. It opposes the International Criminal Court. It opposes necessary environmental treaties like the Kyoto Agreement, etc. It opposes the same weapon inspections that it demanded of Saddam and demands of other states. And it blindly supports Israel in the Israel-Palestine conflict. In essence the largest and richest democratic state of this world is increasingly so proving to be a security risk to the world. Should the rest of the world then mobilize its forces and attack the US? Should they ignore the country? One should believe that one lesson learned from the current war, was that the US cannot in the long run ignore the rest of the world, but only time shall tell if that lesson has truly been learned.
—
Now to some of the earlier comments on this site:
DoughBoy,
what exactly is the relevance of the survey you keep bringing up? Most of the Iraqis hated Saddam, and they’re glad to be rid of him. They are of course in some ways more free now, but at the same time the security issue is *not* improving there, and there’s a great risk that they’ll simply switch to a new totalitarian regime in the form of Islam. Furthermore, this risk is increased by the only – in this context – relevant point in that survey: Of the Iraqi people that have actually met coalition forces, half of them deems it a negative experience. *Half*. The longer the US forces stay, the more of this fraction shall join the uprising – and maybe even some of the other fraction. The later survey, that focused much more on Iraqi involvement with coalition forces, is much more relevant – and much more frightening.
DoughGirl & Andrea,
What relevance does the RE-building of Iraq have in this context? Justifying the war with the fixing of problems that were in the main caused by the war and the sanctions on Iraq is simply distasteful to say the least.
Rachelle,
no, everyone certainly didn’t feel that Saddam posed *enough* of a threat to justify the killing of innocents that is *always* and invariably a part of war. He was a threat, yes, but he was a *contained* threat, which was why the weapon inspectors were in fact able to ask for more time.
As to the continuation of bringing up 9/11,
Saddam and 9/11 had nothing to do with eachother for the simple reason that the 9/11 attack was caused by the Al Quaida network, which opposed Saddam. As a bythought as well: The attack itself was on US soil, but the majority of the people *killed* at that attack were Europeans – so arguing that Europe wasn’t influenced by 9/11 is pure and simply idiocy.
As to the war(s) reducing the threat from terrorists,
Muslim extremists believe that they’ll go straight to ‘heaven’ if they die while acting on Allah’s wishes. In other words, unless they’re *all* killed the threat doesn’t go away, and the war is *increasing* their number – not decreasing it. The simple reason that there has not (yet) been another attack on US soil after 9/11 is that all attempts have thwarted, nothing else. Make no mistake though, at some point they *shall* succeed again.
And lastly there are some things I simply don’t get:
How can *anyone* believing in Christ think that Christ condones the killing of anyone? How can *anyone* believing in any kind of ‘good’ god think that such a being would condone the killing of innocents? How can *anyone* believing in the concepts of goodness and righteousness think that war can be justified as anything but the last resort? And how can anyone with even the semblance of a brain not see that if the US can justify this war as being the will of God, then it’s equally permissible for Muslim extremists to justify *their* war on the Western world in exactly the same way?
Furthermore, what does supporting our troops have to do with endorsing the decision to go to war? Once the decision was made, the troops had no choice but to go. If they misbehave (as in the recent example from an Iraqi prison) they should be brought to justice. If they act in accordance with the principles of democracies and the rule of law, they are entitled to all the support they can get. But this support should *not* be extended to decisionmakers that in my opinion clearly made a wrong choice, causing the deaths of both coalition forces and Iraqi people for no real reason. It should *not* be extended to decisionmakers that have increased, rather than decreased, the threats to world peace.
Anyways, those were my 2 cents (or more).
– Peter
I am Muslim , it is every body duty to find out the facts before giving gudgment on islam, islam dos’nt order muslims to kill non converters to islam, this is a Jewish saying, islam orders muslims to fight the invaders till death, America & Israeal are invaders.
Me my selfe i believe that the right has to remain and the wrong has to go
I believe that Iraqis have right to fight Americans Invadors
I believe that dirty Amercan policy will lead America and its cowboyes leaders to hell
I will remind all of you very soon after failure of ununited Mafia of America
If the current deaths are shown as 743, then why does this picture include almost 1410 photos? just curious.
This is an amazing mosaic. I have noticed that some people are commenting on the number of pictures compared to the actual number of deaths. I do not believe that any number of deaths is acceptable, especially in a war that the President miss calculated in under estimating his enemy. This is Vietnam with one main difference and that is that so far it is on a smaller scale.
Dev: There are many duplicates. From the original mosaic creator’s comments: “I did the image with I think 609 photos. The grid of ‘War President’ is 30 columns by, I think, 47 rows. I couldn’t get good results with a smaller grid, so you know 30×47 = 1410 which means there was going to have to be repeats. I tried a version in which each image was used only twice but I liked this version better; it was a trade off.”
768 – //This war is not on Iraq. It is a safety precaution. //
Thank-you! I did not realize that! Now that all the world hates us I DO feel so much safer…..
great Howard Stern bit on the “bad american president” . Good for a laugh.
http://www.howardstern.com/sounds.html
Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. In the name of the Allah (name of God) , the most merciful, the most gracious. I am sorry for the people who were brought to fight to Iraq against muslims if they were not willing to fight. For the others, who want to fight against muslims, I say that, with the help of Allah, Muslims are going to defeat these American kuffahr and I hope that this the end for that kuffahr Israel. This is the religion of God, Islam, and Allah is going to protect people who are surrendered unto Him, the muslims. Allah is in favor of mujahidins on His way.
Re: 788
Thank you, kindly, for the explanation. Andy, You and any other helpers deserve a very special appreciation for helping with this “Live” memorial as the disaster is in still ongoing, and help many to salute these soldiers remotely. Have you considered a larger “Quilt” (may be called, Of Quilt and Guilt) based on this arrangement? It can also go on a tour!! If any funds needed, where can one forward a contribution? OR a set of permanent image on ceramic tiles, that will allow a permamnet or at least a long-term display as a memorial. It also helps immortalize a “mortal (however imperfect he may be)” through the blood-price paid mortally by many. Thus, potential supporters of the man in image, as well as plain Americans caring for the sacrificed Americans – as well as potential protesters should help this project. It may help heal everyone and bring common-sense in the main stream.
I am just astounded at the starkness of the image. I saw this pic for the first time in my local arts paper. I was astounded then, as I am now. I didn’t know it was all the pictures of the soldiers who died, but I thought as much. It shocks me that this man is responsible for all of their deaths. A fitting representation.
I am iraqi and i am happy that the amercans came to invade iraq, they thout that they can beat iraqis using technology and advanced weapons. now we will give the stupids another lesson
THE TECHNOLOGY AND THE ADVANCED WEAPONS CAN BE USED IN YOUR MOVIES ONLY.
THERE IS NOTHING CAN BEAT THE HUMAN INSISTENCE SPECIALLY IF THEY ARE RIGHT.
This is a very sad portrayal and very moving. That arrogant “bugwit” that we have for a president and his band of idiots, theives and liars all put together are not worth the life of even one of those brave soldiers that have made the ultimate sacrifice. Then refusing to let the media photograph their flag-draped caskets being unloaded here in the U.S. is the final insult to these honorable martyrs. Pretty sorry stuff coming from a bunch of “chickenhawk” tough guys that never served in the military and made damned sure that their children never did but were very eager to send our kids off to war on trumped-up circumstances that for the most part have proven to be something most people call LIES. A war that has turned into such a mess now that the troops over there have no clue when they are going to be coming home. They’ve been lied to enough. My son is there now and my nephew just returned. Vote for a change in November and let’s get some smarter people running the show for a change and bring an end to this terrible mistake one way or another.
Great picture!!! now I wonder if we use the civilians casualties killed by the US army in Iraq how many portraits can we have? I bet we can make family pictures of all these American soldiers and their families!!!
Ihsan
From the original mosaic creator’s comments: “I did the image with I think 609 photos. The grid of “˜War President’ is 30 columns by, I think, 47 rows. I couldn’t get good results with a smaller grid, so you know 30×47 = 1410 which means there was going to have to be repeats. I tried a version in which each image was used only twice but I liked this version better; it was a trade off.”
Comment by Andy Baio “” Saturday May 1, 2004 @ 11:43 am
Ben’s response: –> Don’t worry!! At the rate this sorry-assed-excuse-for-a-war is going, we’ll have the “requisite” number of photos (1410) in another few months. (“They’ll be welcoming us with FLOWERS.” –> ROTFLMAO!!!).
From the original mosaic creator’s comments: “I did the image with I think 609 photos. The grid of “˜War President’ is 30 columns by, I think, 47 rows. I couldn’t get good results with a smaller grid, so you know 30×47 = 1410 which means there was going to have to be repeats. I tried a version in which each image was used only twice but I liked this version better; it was a trade off.”
Comment by Andy Baio “” Saturday May 1, 2004 @ 11:43 am
Ben’s response: –> Don’t worry!! At the rate this sorry-assed-excuse-for-a-war is going, we’ll have the “requisite” number of photos (1410) in another few months. (“They’ll be welcoming us with FLOWERS.” –> ROTFLMAO!!!).
American leaders are mafia bosses, American soldiers are hairelings, they are all deserve killing, the american people are brinwashed by the mafia’s media
why we feel sorry for the murderers while we not feel sorry to the victims.
we have to feel sorry for iraqis killed civilain people, they did not attack a single american, american soldiers attacked them in favor of their mafia bosses.
NOW IS THE TIME TO ADJUST THE INVERTED PICTURE
wow, that’s pretty disturbing, not the image…the way you seem to talk of the technical detail of the image….those are people, not some pictures to be exploited, and complained about when “I couldn’t get good results” “trade off” “repeats” how about a little dignity for the dead….ohhh yeah, one more thing, if you’re opinions are so strong (and by the way each of you write, always correct) do something about it rather than bitch….
It makes no difference if one photo of a soldier is used or multiples. One is too many for this nightmare. Bottom line.Bush should be impeached. John. Viet Nam Vet 1969-1970
i want to see the picture of Bin Laden with his face maded up of people that died in 9/11. anyone remember that picture
LAUGH or CRY
“Ariel Sharon of Israel is a Man of Peace” (sharon committed Sabra and Shatilla massacre and many others)
George W. Bush
“General Musharraf of Pakistan is a Democrat”
George W. Bush
“The inhabitants of Greece are the Greecians”
George W. Bush
“The French don’t have a word for ‘Entrepreneur'”
George W. Bush
“The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country.”
George W. Bush
“If we don’t succeed, we run the risk of failure.”
George W. Bush
“One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Governor, and that one word is ‘to be prepared’.”
George W. Bush
“I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future.”
George W. Bush
“The future will be better tomorrow.”
George W. Bush
“We’re going to have the best educated American people in the world.”
George W. Bush
“I stand by all the misstatements that I’ve made.”
George W. Bush
“We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe.”
George W. Bush
“A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls.”
George W. Bush
“We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur.”
George W. Bush
“For NASA, space is still a high priority.”
George W. Bush
“Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children.”
George W. Bush
“It isn’t pollution that’s harming the environment. It’s the impurities in our air and water that are doing it.”
George W. Bush
“It’s time for the human race to enter the solar system.”
George W. Bush
“Public speaking is very easy.”
George W. Bush
It is a very unique image and very creative. I’m sure that the “artist” was simply trying to bring comfort to the families of those featured. I find the mosaic to be very disrespectful of the troops that died and their families. I wonder if this is a copy write infringement?
Bruce
I don’t think it’s disrespectful to the troops at all. Keep in mind that Bush has not attended the funeral of a single one of those who have died in Iraq. I see it as anti-Bush, as if he is responsible for their deaths, and I think its a wonderful piece of work that should be delivered directly to his desk.
Yes many died in Vietnam and if you look back that War was also fought for no reason. I feel that this war was in haste. We should have waited to get more information about WMD.
Also if you had a relative fighting over there or who has been killed…you would support the troops, but not necessarily the war.
Steve J wrote:
…(4) It is noted that there are far more photos than there are casualties. This is deceptive. Why the deception?
Comment by Steve J “” Monday April 12, 2004 @ 5:18 pm
Ben’s response:
Don’t worry, Steve. The mosaic only has 1410 squares. As of this writing, 760 Americans are already dead. At the current rate, in four and a half more months, there will be enough dead guys to give each his VERY OWN SQUARE in the mosaic. Why don’t you come back then and show your outrage?
I’ve read the article about Iraq POW and the torture were made by american soldiers… Even I had a wish to take a gan and to kill a couple of US dogs…
I’m not talking about torture of men… I suppose it’s usual thing, I’m talking about pregnent Iraq women, whose children are mulattos… And because of religion these women can’t go hame any more… some of them commited suicide…
Only death peanalty for those sucurity guard US soldiers may excuse USA.
Each soldier is a part of the Prime Minister, right?
Over ten thousand Iraq citizens killed by U.S. soldiers will be the same as them.
Without going back their home town.
The American economic system is not able to live alone, it has to absorb a lot of external resources, Iraqis Resistings are able to stop this absorbtion system, they are not only able to destroy the American army, they are also able to destroy all of America.
The president’s real goal in Iraq
The official story on Iraq has never made sense. The connection that the Bush administration has tried to draw between Iraq and al-Qaida has always seemed contrived and artificial. In fact, it was hard to believe that smart people in the Bush administration would start a major war based on such flimsy evidence.
The pieces just didn’t fit. Something else had to be going on; something was missing.
In recent days, those missing pieces have finally begun to fall into place. As it turns out, this is not really about Iraq. It is not about weapons of mass destruction, or terrorism, or Saddam, or U.N. resolutions.
This war, should it come, is intended to mark the official emergence of the United States as a full-fledged global empire, seizing sole responsibility and authority as planetary policeman. It would be the culmination of a plan 10 years or more in the making, carried out by those who believe the United States must seize the opportunity for global domination, even if it means becoming the “American imperialists” that our enemies always claimed we were.
Once that is understood, other mysteries solve themselves. For example, why does the administration seem unconcerned about an exit strategy from Iraq once Saddam is toppled?
Because we won’t be leaving. Having conquered Iraq, the United States will create permanent military bases in that country from which to dominate the Middle East, including neighboring Iran.
In an interview Friday, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld brushed aside that suggestion, noting that the United States does not covet other nations’ territory. That may be true, but 57 years after World War II ended, we still have major bases in Germany and Japan. We will do the same in Iraq.
And why has the administration dismissed the option of containing and deterring Iraq, as we had the Soviet Union for 45 years? Because even if it worked, containment and deterrence would not allow the expansion of American power. Besides, they are beneath us as an empire. Rome did not stoop to containment; it conquered. And so should we.
Among the architects of this would-be American Empire are a group of brilliant and powerful people who now hold key positions in the Bush administration: They envision the creation and enforcement of what they call a worldwide “Pax Americana,” or American peace. But so far, the American people have not appreciated the true extent of that ambition.
Part of it’s laid out in the National Security Strategy, a document in which each administration outlines its approach to defending the country. The Bush administration plan, released Sept. 20, marks a significant departure from previous approaches, a change that it attributes largely to the attacks of Sept. 11.
To address the terrorism threat, the president’s report lays out a newly aggressive military and foreign policy, embracing pre-emptive attack against perceived enemies. It speaks in blunt terms of what it calls “American internationalism,” of ignoring international opinion if that suits U.S. interests. “The best defense is a good offense,” the document asserts.
It dismisses deterrence as a Cold War relic and instead talks of “convincing or compelling states to accept their sovereign responsibilities.”
In essence, it lays out a plan for permanent U.S. military and economic domination of every region on the globe, unfettered by international treaty or concern. And to make that plan a reality, it envisions a stark expansion of our global military presence.
“The United States will require bases and stations within and beyond Western Europe and Northeast Asia,” the document warns, “as well as temporary access arrangements for the long-distance deployment of U.S. troops.”
The report’s repeated references to terrorism are misleading, however, because the approach of the new National Security Strategy was clearly not inspired by the events of Sept. 11. They can be found in much the same language in a report issued in September 2000 by the Project for the New American Century, a group of conservative interventionists outraged by the thought that the United States might be forfeiting its chance at a global empire.
“At no time in history has the international security order been as conducive to American interests and ideals,” the report said. stated two years ago. “The challenge of this coming century is to preserve and enhance this ‘American peace.’ ”
Familiar themes
Overall, that 2000 report reads like a blueprint for current Bush defense policy. Most of what it advocates, the Bush administration has tried to accomplish. For example, the project report urged the repudiation of the anti-ballistic missile treaty and a commitment to a global missile defense system. The administration has taken that course.
It recommended that to project sufficient power worldwide to enforce Pax Americana, the United States would have to increase defense spending from 3 percent of gross domestic product to as much as 3.8 percent. For next year, the Bush administration has requested a defense budget of $379 billion, almost exactly 3.8 percent of GDP.
It advocates the “transformation” of the U.S. military to meet its expanded obligations, including the cancellation of such outmoded defense programs as the Crusader artillery system. That’s exactly the message being preached by Rumsfeld and others.
It urges the development of small nuclear warheads “required in targeting the very deep, underground hardened bunkers that are being built by many of our potential adversaries.” This year the GOP-led U.S. House gave the Pentagon the green light to develop such a weapon, called the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator, while the Senate has so far balked.
That close tracking of recommendation with current policy is hardly surprising, given the current positions of the people who contributed to the 2000 report.
Paul Wolfowitz is now deputy defense secretary. John Bolton is undersecretary of state. Stephen Cambone is head of the Pentagon’s Office of Program, Analysis and Evaluation. Eliot Cohen and Devon Cross are members of the Defense Policy Board, which advises Rumsfeld. I. Lewis Libby is chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Dov Zakheim is comptroller for the Defense Department.
‘Constabulary duties’
Because they were still just private citizens in 2000, the authors of the project report could be more frank and less diplomatic than they were in drafting the National Security Strategy. Back in 2000, they clearly identified Iran, Iraq and North Korea as primary short-term targets, well before President Bush tagged them as the Axis of Evil. In their report, they criticize the fact that in war planning against North Korea and Iraq, “past Pentagon wargames have given little or no consideration to the force requirements necessary not only to defeat an attack but to remove these regimes from power.”
To preserve the Pax Americana, the report says U.S. forces will be required to perform “constabulary duties” — the United States acting as policeman of the world — and says that such actions “demand American political leadership rather than that of the United Nations.”
To meet those responsibilities, and to ensure that no country dares to challenge the United States,the report advocates a much larger military presence spread over more of the globe, in addition to the roughly 130 nations in which U.S. troops are already deployed.
More specifically, they argue that we need permanent military bases in the Middle East, in Southeast Europe, in Latin America and in Southeast Asia, where no such bases now exist. That helps to explain another of the mysteries of our post-Sept. 11 reaction, in which the Bush administration rushed to install U.S. troops in Georgia and the Philippines, as well as our eagerness to send military advisers to assist in the civil war in Colombia.
The 2000 report directly acknowledges its debt to a still earlier document, drafted in 1992 by the Defense Department. That document had also envisioned the United States as a colossus astride the world, imposing its will and keeping world peace through military and economic power. When leaked in final draft form, however, the proposal drew so much criticism that it was hastily withdrawn and repudiated by the first President Bush.
Effect on allies
The defense secretary in 1992 was Richard Cheney; the document was drafted by Wolfowitz, who at the time was defense undersecretary for policy.
The potential implications of a Pax Americana are immense.
One is the effect on our allies. Once we assert the unilateral right to act as the world’s policeman, our allies will quickly recede into the background. Eventually, we will be forced to spend American wealth and American blood protecting the peace while other nations redirect their wealth to such things as health care for their citizenry.
Donald Kagan, a professor of classical Greek history at Yale and an influential advocate of a more aggressive foreign policy — he served as co-chairman of the 2000 New Century project — acknowledges that likelihood.
“If [our allies] want a free ride, and they probably will, we can’t stop that,” he says. But he also argues that the United States, given its unique position, has no choice but to act anyway.
“You saw the movie ‘High Noon’? he asks. “We’re Gary Cooper.”
Accepting the Cooper role would be an historic change in who we are as a nation, and in how we operate in the international arena. Candidate Bush certainly did not campaign on such a change. It is not something that he or others have dared to discuss honestly with the American people. To the contrary, in his foreign policy debate with Al Gore, Bush pointedly advocated a more humble foreign policy, a position calculated to appeal to voters leery of military intervention.
For the same reason, Kagan and others shy away from terms such as empire, understanding its connotations. But they also argue that it would be naive and dangerous to reject the role that history has thrust upon us. Kagan, for example, willingly embraces the idea that the United States would establish permanent military bases in a post-war Iraq.
“I think that’s highly possible,” he says. “We will probably need a major concentration of forces in the Middle East over a long period of time. That will come at a price, but think of the price of not having it. When we have economic problems, it’s been caused by disruptions in our oil supply. If we have a force in Iraq, there will be no disruption in oil supplies.”
Costly global commitment
Rumsfeld and Kagan believe that a successful war against Iraq will produce other benefits, such as serving an object lesson for nations such as Iran and Syria. Rumsfeld, as befits his sensitive position, puts it rather gently. If a regime change were to take place in Iraq, other nations pursuing weapons of mass destruction “would get the message that having them . . . is attracting attention that is not favorable and is not helpful,” he says.
Kagan is more blunt.
“People worry a lot about how the Arab street is going to react,” he notes. “Well, I see that the Arab street has gotten very, very quiet since we started blowing things up.”
The cost of such a global commitment would be enormous. In 2000, we spent $281 billion on our military, which was more than the next 11 nations combined. By 2003, our expenditures will have risen to $378 billion. In other words, the increase in our defense budget from 1999-2003 will be more than the total amount spent annually by China, our next largest competitor.
The lure of empire is ancient and powerful, and over the millennia it has driven men to commit terrible crimes on its behalf. But with the end of the Cold War and the disappearance of the Soviet Union, a global empire was essentially laid at the feet of the United States. To the chagrin of some, we did not seize it at the time, in large part because the American people have never been comfortable with themselves as a New Rome.
Now, more than a decade later, the events of Sept. 11 have given those advocates of empire a new opportunity to press their case with a new president. So in debating whether to invade Iraq, we are really debating the role that the United States will play in the years and decades to come.
Are peace and security best achieved by seeking strong alliances and international consensus, led by the United States? Or is it necessary to take a more unilateral approach, accepting and enhancing the global dominance that, according to some, history has thrust upon us?
If we do decide to seize empire, we should make that decision knowingly, as a democracy. The price of maintaining an empire is always high. Kagan and others argue that the price of rejecting it would be higher still.
That’s what this is about.
“Rebuilding America’s Defenses,” a 2000 report by the Project for the New American Century, listed 27 people as having attended meetings or contributed papers in preparation of the report. Among them are six who have since assumed key defense and foreign policy positions in the Bush administration. And the report seems to have become a blueprint for Bush’s foreign and defense policy.
Paul Wolfowitz
Political science doctorate from University of Chicago and dean of the international relations program at Johns Hopkins University during the 1990s. Served in the Reagan State Department, moved to the Pentagon during the first Bush administration as undersecretary of defense for policy. Sworn in as deputy defense secretary in March 2001.
John Bolton
Yale Law grad who worked in the Reagan administration as an assistant attorney general. Switched to the State Department in the first Bush administration as assistant secretary for international organization affairs. Sworn in as undersecretary of state for arms control and international security, May 2001.
Eliot Cohen
Harvard doctorate in government who taught at Harvard and at the Naval War College. Now directs strategic studies at Johns Hopkins and is the author of several books on military strategy. Was on the Defense Department’s policy planning staff in the first Bush administration and is now on Donald Rumsfeld’s Defense Policy Board.
I. Lewis Libby
Law degree from Columbia (Yale undergrad). Held advisory positions in the Reagan State Department. Was a partner in a Washington law firm in the late ’80s before becoming deputy undersecretary of defense for policy in the first Bush administration (under Dick Cheney). Now is the vice president’s chief of staff.
Dov Zakheim
Doctorate in economics and politics from Oxford University. Worked on policy issues in the Reagan Defense Department and went into private defense consulting during the 1990s. Was foreign policy adviser to the 2000 Bush campaign. Sworn in as undersecretary of defense (comptroller) and chief financial officer for the Pentagon, May 2001.
Stephen Cambone
Political science doctorate from Claremont Graduate School. Was in charge of strategic defense policy at the Defense Department in the first Bush administration. Now heads the Office of Program, Analysis and Evaluation at the Defense Department.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2319.htm
This image belongs on the cover of Time or Newsweek, and would really move many people to realize the real cost of this (Bush’s) war.
Maybe the author of this mozaic should have done a mozaic of Saddam and all the people he’s killed !
I feel very sorry for USA and sorry that not more free countries would fight for freedom. Remember that Sadam was the biggest weapon of mass destruction.
France and Germany should especially be shamed – have they already forgotten that it was USA and England who brought freedom to those countries.
I am proved of USA fighting for freedom.
Forget about the allegations of torture made by the small coalition – it is the press mostly – what about the suicide bombers against the coalition? – Is it torture – where is the press?
We are all against war, but sometimes war is the only last thing to free people.
/Ole from Denmark
I am Iraqi, Today i have seen Bush speeking to an arabian TV, he was a very nice man, he sayed his target is to give freedom to Iraqis people, my family shouted at him they sayed some very bad words and wished to get him out of TV and kill him.
I told them don’t say like that , Bosh is very nice man, look at his babyface, he will give us the freedom, he will not take our oil, he will not kill any body and if he did he will pay $2500 for killed person’s family, he didn’t come to support Israeal or to attack our nighbours Iran and Syria, dont believe this bad things, look at his babyface.
after a long time i failed to convence them.
but i am sure that Bosh is a nice man he has a babyface.
I’m apalled to find myself reflecting upon the comprehension of a 20 year-old draftable kid in 1966 listening repeatedly to the dopey Donovan version of the song “…the Universal Soldier, he really is to blame…”, “… he really is to blame…”
Listening repeatedly.
…but i am sure that Bosh is a nice man he has a babyface.
Comment by Jaser “” Wednesday May 5, 2004 @ 4:30 pm
Ben’s response:
So, I guess, by Jaser’s logic, “BabyFace” Nelson, “Pretty Boy” Floyd and “Billy the Kid” were nice guys too.
To Jaser: You are an idiot! He already killed a lot of YOUR people, he is already taking YOUR oil (and who else do you think right now is selling oil? Iraqies people? Bull shitt…) And he has baby face just because he has Down’s syndrome… oligophrenic person
To post 812 by Comment by Jay Bookman: Absolutely agree.
I am saddened by this montage, sad for the soldiers, sad for their families. I think this administration is a disgrace. If this was all about terrorism, that would be one thing, but if it is about terrorism, then we should be other places ahead of Iraq. Using american lives to justify cleaning up a mess daddy started doesn’t justify even one life. People talk about all the people Saddam killed, there are alot of ruthless dictators who killed thousands of their own people but we didn’t invade. This is a bullshit war we are in, and I personally feel that is was not started due to terrorism. Do I believe in the need to protect our freedom? YES, definately! But I don’t believe this was deserves even one American life. To qualify these statements just let me say, I am retired military, my father was retired military, my older brother is retired military. I have a son, a daughter, and a son-in-law who are at this time active military. Would I be willing to sacrafice even one of those lives. Yes, in WWI, WWII, Yes. In Iraq? Absolutely NOT.
I think that even one soldier lost, is one solier to many. personally i think he is the cause of the deaths because, he is the one having our family over there. they are being killed like cattle in a slaughter house!! how would he feel if he had army men on his front door at 3:00 a.m telling him that someone he loved was killed in battle? i think the picture should be sent to him, for him to look at the faces of the men and women killed there in battle.
I am Jaser again the iraqi man, just i want to thank my friends Ben # 818 and Dmitry #819, and i want to till both of you that me and my brother are resistings, i am seeing the vectory on my teem’s faces, the target of Bosh will never happen, when the home is invaded the death becoms easy for us, and some times becomes a wish, Bosh’s evil will never remain.
One with JFK and the 60,000 young americans he sent to die would make for a nice image too. Or how about one with Bill Clinton and the pictures of 3,000 civilians he killed in Yugoslovia.
The original “artist” using images of those young men and women to protest the cause they died for is sickening and revolting to me.
Jake Steed wrote:
“One with JFK and the 60,000 young americans he sent to die would make for a nice image too. Or how about one with Bill Clinton and the pictures of 3,000 civilians he killed in Yugoslovia.
The original “artist” using images of those young men and women to protest the cause they died for is sickening and revolting to me.
End Comment by Jake Steed
Ben’s Response:
Jake, break out your history books. U.S. involvement in Vietnam began in 1950 under Harry Truman (while the French were still fighting) and continued under Eisenhower (a Republican), Kennedy, Johnson, and finally (five years) under Nixon (another Republican).
If you are disgusted by the casualties in Yugoslavia, you should be much more disturbed by the 100,000 plus Iraqi civilian deaths.
Has anyone endeavored to make a mosaic of the 9,000-plus dead Iraqi civilians.
Why is the US in Iraq? Is it their tenuous link to al-Qaeda? Is it the fear of their thriving WMD program?
Saddam is gone, which is undoubtedly a boon and blessing for the Iraqi people.
However if regime change is what you’re hollering, why did the US and their Saudi cronie incite him to attack Iran in the First Gulf War? Why was Saddam supported by Bush Sr. for so long?
And how/why after all this time did Saddam finally outlive his usefulness?
It’s easy to think this about oil. How much oil is America already getting from Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Venezuela?
The US/Unocal corporate takeover of Afghanistan had significantly more to do with oil than a current occupation in Iraq?
The Caspian Sea is believed to hold more barrels than the entire Persian Gulf.
Like most wars, it’s about control and dominance. Control of what? Who or what in that area needs to be dominated?
What groups of people are putting up the most resistance to US occupation in Iraq today?
I say take a look at the country on the Eastern border of Iraq. This is where some answers to many of our questions lay.
America has already bought Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman and has them in her back pocket!
The fear lies the ability of Shia (Shiite) Islam to resist Western puppets and authoritarian regimes.
Study the non-violent Islamic revolution of Iran in 1979. How did they overthrow the Shah?
How have they established a spiritual-centered theocracy as their selected form of government?
America is afraid of a collective Islamic Revolution in the Middle East.
She fears losing sway over the fat-petroleum vampires who suck the life out their respective kingdoms and sultanates.
She fears a revolution of heart and conscience in the Middle East and in the Muslim world.
One that would unite along a spiritual foundation, and not some racial or nationalistic nonsense.
Think About It?!
I thought this question was answered so eloquently, that I thought I should re-post it:
It is noted that there are far more photos than there are casualties. This is deceptive. Why the deception?
Comment by Steve J “” Monday April 12, 2004 @ 5:18 pm
Ben’s response:
Don’t worry, Steve. The mosaic only has 1410 squares. As of this writing, 760 Americans are already dead. At the current rate, in four and a half more months, there will be enough dead guys to give each his VERY OWN SQUARE in the mosaic. Why don’t you come back then and show your outrage?
VERY NICE, BEN!!!! TRIM BUSH OUT OF THE WHITEHOUSE! KERRY 2004!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very impressive. Now, let’s see Osama’s face with the over 3000 faces killed … or even better, the million not yet dead because Sadaam is no longer in power. That said, “thank you” to the soldiers and families who served and sacrificed so much. Thank you to the artist, as we all need to remember, war is serious, painful and no matter how much is won, everyone still loses something.
WOW U PUT EVERY PICTURE UP THERE AT LEAST 3 TIMES TO INCREASE THE DEAD BY 300 PERCENT YOU LIBERALS SHOULD MOVE TO IRAQ AND SEE HOW WELL U ARE TREATED OVER THERE THESE SOLDIERS DIED TO MAKE US SAFER BY GETTING RID OF SADDAM HAVE FUN WITH 4 MORE YEARS OF BUSH WHEN HE WINS AGAIN
To post 828: Let’s say thank you to Bush not for 800 coalition death, but for more then 10 000 Iraqies people! How many terroristic acts Ben Laden will need to cover this figure? And at the end of the war the quantity will be much higher.
“Maybe the author of this mozaic should have done a mozaic of Saddam and all the people he’s killed, and while he’s at it make one of Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, etc””and the list goes on…”
Yes, it could be part of a whole collection “Worlds Worst Leaders”. And it was a Bush supporter who made this comment! Whos the bigger fool, the fool himself or the ones who follow him?
More interesting than the mosaic is the debate. Still can’t get over how the basic question is avoided: what threat did Saddam pose to the US, or even his neighbors? How did we suddenly get into the business of deposing tyrants starting with this guy? Mostly-Saudi terrorists hit on 9-11, so let’s attack, let’s see…. MONGOLIA! ….no, well, how about….IRAQ! Yeah, George, Iraq! Even though THREE ex-insiders have testified that Bushco was itching to attack Iraq from Day One, and 9-11 just provided an (irrelevant) excuse, these patriots are willing to line up and say “We’re behind you, George, whatever you say. Let’s just throw our kids in there for no damn reason if that’s what you need.” I’m sick of you geniuses; you’d be much more at home in an authoritarian country. I mean a real authoritarian country, not just this wanna-be. You should check out http://www.BlueCanyonSatire.com — some good c/w songs there you’d really enjoy.
MORE INCIDENTS OF ABUSE BY TROOPS
07/13/2003 Archived Entry: “Treatment of Iraqi Prisoners”
http://www.random-abstract.com/archives-gm/00002071.html
Indian laborers claim they were held on US base
Four Indians who claimed to have escaped from a U.S. army camp in Iraq have returned to southern India, telling harrowing tales of their nine-month stay. The U.S. Embassy said it was investigating reports that the men were held against their will
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1083751685739&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037
MORE INCIDENTS OF ABUSE BY TROOPS
07/13/2003 Archived Entry: “Treatment of Iraqi Prisoners”
http://www.random-abstract.com/archives-gm/00002071.html
Indian laborers claim they were held on US base
Four Indians who claimed to have escaped from a U.S. army camp in Iraq have returned to southern India, telling harrowing tales of their nine-month stay. The U.S. Embassy said it was investigating reports that the men were held against their will
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1083751685739&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037
How incredibly sad that a generation of young men are wiped out because of the lies of the man who is supposed to protect his country. I wonder at the people who say that it isnt Bush’s fault—when, clearly, had he sought the truth of the matter, he would not have rushed to war. No amount of excuses, apologies, or rationalizations will ever EVER bring these young men backhome —-except in a coffin—and more and more, every day, will join them. It makes my heart ache for them, and for the families, of each one, they left behind.
Today I got upset because of following TV news, killing there and here and every where, I decided to watch a good movie to change my bad mode and my injustice feeling, I started to search among TV channels, finally I got a movie it seemed to me is a good and amusing movie, there were calm and logic dialogues, all people in the movie are good-hearted and they are looking for equity, I felt better now I can sleep relaxed after watching this excellent movie, suddenly before movie’s end my brother came and looked at the movie, he said “you are still watching this bull shits?”, I answered this is a very good movie, he shouted at me ” your are idiot, this is Donald Rumsfeld was called to Congress of USA to discus the torture of Iraqi prisoners”.
Really I was angry of my brother’s swearword, but I felt better, those good-hearted people are not actors they are real people, the world is protected by good American leaders, now I can sleep pleased and relaxed.
To post 829 who said “WOW U PUT EVERY PICTURE UP THERE AT LEAST 3 TIMES TO INCREASE THE DEAD BY 300 PERCENT YOU LIBERALS SHOULD MOVE TO IRAQ AND SEE HOW WELL U ARE TREATED OVER THERE”
Hmph. Would we be treated any worse than the Iraqi POW’s who have been sexually abused by OUR US SOLDIERS SENT TO “LIBERATE” THAT POOR COUNTRY!!! The war is backfiring in Bush’s face and there is no way in hell that he can save face now. Not with these photographs coming out. Bush has united the “liberals” as you like to call us, as Clinton united the republicans. So, all of you right-wing radical conservatives had better watch the hell out! Your UN-ELECTED President is about to get the reality check of his life…He’s going back to Crawford, Texas. That is…if Texas will even want him anymore. Good riddance Bush! http://www.bushflash.com
Dont u think. its horror. when u done this a Dead Iraq People.
Its larger than this pic,
Dont u think. its horror. when u done this a Dead Iraq Children.
Its larger than this pic, 100 times.
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS – BRING THEM HOME!!!
To khaled #835 yes, what happened in the U.S. Congress was realy bull shit movie
You #835 and #841 are idiot, what happened to Rumsfeld in Congress of USA was not amovie it is a proof of democracy and freedom of USA, there is no any country can interrogate the ministers and president like us.
Begin quote of #828 Comment by Mark “” Thursday May 6, 2004
Very impressive. Now, let’s see Osama’s face with the over 3000 faces killed “¦ or even better, the million not yet dead because Sadaam is no longer in power….
End quote of Mark # 828
Ben’s response: Bin Laden is an evil fundamentalist, who deserves to be hunted down and killed. That said, he has derived most of his financing directly and indirectly from a bunch of corrupt, despotic rulers in Saudi Arabia.
When Iraq invaded Kuwait, putting Iraq’s army directly on the border with Saudi Arabia, and within 300 miles of the Capital, Riyadh, did Saudi Arabia send it’s army to “liberate” Kuwait? No, they let the Americans do that.
Fifteen of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia (a country of corrupt, despotic rulers) (source: FBI interview http://baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.shtml).
George Bush’s family has made most of it’s oil wealth directly and indirectly from a bunch of corrupt, despotic rulers in…Saudi Arabia.
Can anybody guess why Bush didn’t attack Saudi Arabia after 9/11?
Sorry to say that, but I don’t care about the US soldiers who died in Iraq!
They went into a country and killed innocent people, men, women, children, torturing people right now, etc.
The (about) 600 killed people haven’t been murdered, they have been executed.
And the Iraqi people have the right to do that! What would you do if some soldiers come into your country cause their president lied and kill people, etc?
Sad about killed US soldiers in Iraq?
NEVER! Why? THEY killed civilians, treated them bad, threw bombs onto them, torturing them.
THEIR government lied and wanted to make the world believe that Iraq still has these horrible weapons.
Hopefully there are more executed bas***** coming home by transport planes.
The first reason to invade Iraq was the weapons of mass destruction after little time we discovered it is a big lie
The second reason was the relation between Iraq and osama bin ladin after little time we discovered it is a big lie also
The third reason was to give the freedom to Iraqis people, we killed 10000 civilians after little time we sow the photos of torture of Iraqi prisoners.
Stupid Bush we don’t need any more lies, stop using our money for your own business, stop this bull shit war.
Hi, Ronald,
it’s great to hear that from an US-American. Sometimes we doubt how far to the right wing the US people changed. What about democracy in the USA? People’s rights have been reduced, people are tortured in Guantanamo Bay in the name of freedom and democracy.
What do other people in the world think about democracy right now? They may think that the behavour of US administration stands for democracy and they are laughing about that!
There is nothing to laugh about – that’s a shame for the so-called “civilized world”.
Hi, Stefan,
Yes, I agree with you 100% , I am not sad about killed US soldiers in Iraq, they, our leaders and American silent people also deserve killing 100 times.
I don’t understand why so many Americans want to hate their own country . Is it that hard to like a country as good as ours ? Have they ever been to other countries to see the other side . I don’t think that our Prsident now or ever wants a war . But some times a stong power must fight or only strong evil will rule . We interfere all the time in things here at home that you could say isn’t our business ( family abuse – unfavorable neighbors – abortion – etc. } but sometimes you have to do something if you’re decent and have the ability . We’re trying to help a neighbor that can’t help themselves right now .
Dave, stop this bull shit, you are calling killing of 10000 Iraqis, torturing and throwing bombs above them “helping others”.
I think you have misunderstanding in the definition of “helping other”.
The Price of Arrogance
In a war that could go on for decades, you cannot simply detain people indefinitely on the sole authority of the secretary of Defense
May 17 issue – America is ushering in a new responsibility era,” says President Bush as part of his standard stump speech, “where each of us understands we’re responsible for the decisions we make in life.” When speaking about bad CEOs he’s even clearer as to what it entails: “You’re beginning to see the consequences of people making irresponsible decisions. They need to pay a price for their irresponsibility.”
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“I take full responsibility,” said Donald Rumsfeld in his congressional testimony last week. But what does this mean? Secretary Rumsfeld hastened to add that he did not plan to resign and was not going to ask anyone else who might have been “responsible” to resign. As far as I can tell, taking responsibility these days means nothing more than saying the magic words “I take responsibility.”
After the greatest terrorist attack against America, no one was asked to resign, and the White House didn’t even want to launch a serious investigation into it. The 9/11 Commission was created after months of refusals because some of the victims’ families pursued it aggressively and simply didn’t give up. After the fiasco over Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, not one person was even reassigned. The only people who have been fired or cashiered in this administration are men like Gen. Eric Shinseki, Paul O’Neill and Larry Lindsey, who spoke inconvenient truths.
Rumsfeld went on in his testimony to explain that “these terrible acts were perpetrated by a small number.” That’s correct, except the small number who are truly responsible are not the handful of uniformed personnel currently being charged for the prison abuse scandal. The events at Abu Ghraib are part of a larger breakdown in American policy over the past two years. And it has been perpetrated by a small number of people at the highest levels of government.
Since 9/11, a handful of officials at the top of the Defense Department and the vice president’s office have commandeered American foreign and defense policy. In the name of fighting terror they have systematically weakened the traditional restraints that have made this country respected around the world. Alliances, international institutions, norms and ethical conventions have all been deemed expensive indulgences at a time of crisis.
Within weeks after September 11, senior officials at the Pentagon and the White House began the drive to maximize American freedom of action. They attacked specifically the Geneva Conventions, which govern behavior during wartime. Donald Rumsfeld explained that the conventions did not apply to today’s “set of facts.” He and his top aides have tried persistently to keep prisoners out of the reach of either American courts or international law, presumably so that they can be handled without those pettifogging rules as barriers. Rumsfeld initially fought both the uniformed military and Colin Powell, who urged that prisoners in Guantanamo be accorded rights under the conventions. Eventually he gave in on the matter but continued to suggest that the protocols were antiquated. Last week he said again that the Geneva Conventions did not “precisely apply” and were simply basic rules.
The conventions are not exactly optional. They are the law of the land, signed by the president and ratified by Congress. Rumsfeld’s concern””that Al Qaeda members do not wear uniforms and are thus “unlawful combatants”””is understandable, but that is a determination that a military court would have to make. In a war that could go on for decades, you cannot simply arrest and detain people indefinitely on the say-so of the secretary of Defense.
The basic attitude taken by Rumsfeld, Cheney and their top aides has been “We’re at war; all these niceties will have to wait.” As a result, we have waged pre-emptive war unilaterally, spurned international cooperation, rejected United Nations participation, humiliated allies, discounted the need for local support in Iraq and incurred massive costs in blood and treasure. If the world is not to be trusted in these dangerous times, key agencies of the American government, like the State Department, are to be trusted even less. Congress is barely informed, even on issues on which its “advise and consent” are constitutionally mandated.
Leave process aside: the results are plain. On almost every issue involving postwar Iraq””troop strength, international support, the credibility of exiles, de-Baathification, handling Ayatollah Ali Sistani””Washington’s assumptions and policies have been wrong. By now most have been reversed, often too late to have much effect. This strange combination of arrogance and incompetence has not only destroyed the hopes for a new Iraq. It has had the much broader effect of turning the United States into an international outlaw in the eyes of much of the world.
Whether he wins or loses in November, George W. Bush’s legacy is now clear: the creation of a poisonous atmosphere of anti-Americanism around the globe. I’m sure he takes full responsibility.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4933882/
I think our experience in Iraq is going to mirror that of Israel the West Bank and Gaza. I think we can also expect a situation similar to Russia’s in Chechnya.
In both cases, a powerful military has been facing off against a large, hostile population that is willing to accept enormous casualties. In both cases, the occupation has dragged out for years, with large casualties and no clear end in sight.
The U.S. has stated it’s intentions to build numerous permanent bases in Iraq. There is a desire among some in the administration to move next against Syria and Iran.
Consider these statistics (source: CIA Fact Book)
Afghanistan: land area: 647,500 sq km (slightly smaller than Texas)
population: 28,717,213
Iraq: land area: 432,162 sq km (slightly more than twice the size of Idaho)
population: 24,683,313
Iran: land area: 1,636,000 sq km (slightly larger than Alaska )
population: 68,278,826
Syria:
land area : 184,050 sq km (slightly larger than North Dakota )
population: 17,585,540
Total area of these countries: 2,899,712 sq km. (like Texas, Alaska, North Dakota, and Idaho)
Total population : 139,264,892 people (more than California, Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan
So, if the “Iran/Syria” plan happens, US forces would be spread out across an area bigger than Texas, Alaska, North Dakota and Idaho with a combined population of 139 million people (in comparison, the whole U.S. has approximately 280 million people).
After World War II, US bases were in countries that had accepted their defeat. They were, in comparison, small. Germany was about 70 million. Japan about 71 million.
I think this whole thing is insane, and may end very badly.
I love freedom, Gig family, C.E.O., Biz is great…
Money is not everything but can’t live without it…
Face it, you want to live in the nation to have power & control.
You don’t want to be treated like iraqi? It’s not right? jobless & poor?
You like freedom? Democracy? other ways then war? look behind, China is right behind.
they have cheap man power, link direct oil pipes with Russia & mid-east.
10years later, my kids even have to learn Chinese to keep in bussiness…
they sure will make fun of Americans in their late night show after 10years
as now this Goverment blew all of it…
Now more pictures of abused iraqies, rape video & “iraqi hotdog” pic..(Saw them on arab news)
When these pictures are out to the US public…it’s over…because of few dumbass took pictures.
and goverment should have done a better job. blocked only 90% media, when will they learn from Israel.
Absolute power with absolutely stupid president = soon failure of USA
http://www.snowshoefilms.com/
this is very bad
The stupidity is to feel that you are smarter than others, stupid Bush; do you want us to believe you any more?
The stupid story of September 11 can’t convince a child. We want to know who is behind September 11.
“Only the dead have seen the end of war.” Plato
The first reason to invade Iraq was the weapons of mass destruction after little time we discovered it is a big lie
The second reason was the relation between Iraq and osama bin ladin after little time we discovered it is a big lie also
The third reason was to give the freedom to Iraqis people, we killed 10000 civilians after little time we sow the photos of torture of Iraqi prisoners.
Stupid Bush we don’t need any more lies, stop using our money for your own business, stop this bull shit war.
It is additionally interesting and nice to know the Prisoner on a Leash has ask to come to the Unites States… and live and be Free in a Country he can be proud of… If someone will help him get here. But that would take courage from someone here too, he may not make it…
MEMORABLE MOSAIC :=: FREEDOM ISN’T FREE!!!! And, is often unappreciated & undeserved… even unpleasant & unacceptable if You’ve never worn a Leash!
“One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.” – President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.” – President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
Iraq is a long way from [here], bu t what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.” – Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983.” – Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb 18,1998
“[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.” – Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry (D – MA), and others Oct. 9,1998
“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”&! nbsp; – Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
“Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.” >- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
“There is no doubt that … Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.” – Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
“We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.” – Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.” – Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction ha s proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.” -Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeki! ng and d eveloping weapons of mass destruction.” – Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intel ligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…” – Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force– if necessary– to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.” – Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9,2002
“There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working agg ressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years .. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
“He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do” – Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
“In the four years since the inspecto! rs left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.” – Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
“We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capa city for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.” – Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
“Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ….. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation … And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real” – Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
SO NOW EVERY ONE OF THESE SAME DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED–THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR UNNECESSARILY!
Send this to everybody you know..The media and networks won’t do it. Why do you! suppose that is?
George W. needs our help -lets do all we can.
Sandy
http://www.ticz.com/homes/users/bob/On-A-Rock/On-A-Rock.htm
I liked the above site better, not the art of such a Bitter Person like this one is.
Thank You, CJ
“You #835 and #841 are idiot, what happened to Rumsfeld in Congress of USA was not amovie it is a proof of democracy and freedom of USA, there is no any country can interrogate the ministers and president like us. “
my answer:
yeah right… do you really think that america is the only free country in the world?
What about europe! France, germany, great britain.
Those countries are much more ‘free’ that the USA, i’m sure of that.
And why are americans so childish?
Change the word French-Fries into Freedom-Fries, en Frenck-Kiss into Freedom-Kiss… how silly!!
France and Germany were the only countries of this sick world who were brave enough to say something about the stupid things that Bush is doing.
Other countries in europe (including mine) didn’t say something about it, because then Bush will say: The dutch people are terrorists, lets attack them!
I feel very sorry for USA and sorry that not more free countries would fight for freedom. Remember that Sadam was the biggest weapon of mass destruction.
France and Germany should especially be shamed – have they already forgotten that it was USA and England who brought freedom to those countries.
I am proved of USA fighting for freedom.
Forget about the allegations of torture made by the small coalition – it is the press mostly – what about the suicide bombers against the coalition? – Is it torture – where is the press?
We are all against war, but sometimes war is the only last thing to free people.
/Ole from Denmark
Yes Ole, the USA en GB saved the germans, the french and us, and we are very thankfull for that, but america to help us only after they were attacked at pearl harbour.
Before Pearl harbour they knew that millions of people were murdered here, but they didn’t do anything.
Only when their own country has been attacked, they help other countries.
Stupid egoists
Many patriottic americans think that the whole world loves the USA and than we all look up to you.
Well, people who think that are very very wrong.
We have not hit 800 deaths yet. We are doing extremely well in iraq and considering that we have over 100,000 troops there 800 is a very low amount. It is a war, people die! I am planning on going into the Marine Corps in one year. I feel very secure that i may end up going to iraq. I am not frightened by that number. We have killed thousands and thousands of iraqis. Bush is doing a fine job and this picture offends me because he is not trying to kill our soldiers, he is just trying to hlep a country that is not as free as us. We are helping others. God Bless the USA and ~ Semper Fidelis
Get real. We have a guy in the White House that is doing a bad job. He’s not a good president. He has had his 4 years. He had his chance to be a good president. Compare him to who served before. George Bush is the farthest thing from “presidential” that I have ever known and is truly a “dumbed-down” version of the real thing. I’ll borrow a quote from Dick. “It’s time for them to go!”
Marie van Beek from the Netherlands , you are very good example for the prain washed people, you are repeating the bull shitt words of american leaders, use your mind a little bit, don’t repeat words like a parrot.
Just put the following: -“real target of iraq war”- put it in any search engine and read, use your mind please.
Eric M. start your marine corps very safely, your nick will not only cut by Iraqis it will be cut by all nationalities, I think you came from another planet recently, wake up, we are hated by all the world due to our policy, feel safe start you marine corps.
First I would like to say that I do not like the picture. The most important thing to do right now is to stand behind our troops and our president. Everyone in the US owes their thanks to them. War is always ugly. But it is true that it is sometimes needed. Who is to judge when? Not me. That is why our country employs truly educated people to make that decision. I don’t know if Bush is doing the right thing, maybe he is not. We should all have faith that he is. Let the president do his job and you do yours.
As for the comment made by Marie van Beek from the Netherlands “” Tuesday May 11, 2004 in #863; I am sorry but how ignorant of you to say such a thing about Pearl Harbor and America. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. You should really learn something about the subject before making such a strong statement about it.
Also:
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I do not think that the whole world loves America nor do I think that everyone looks up to us and I am American. That is an extremely ignorant generalization. I think that you are very wrong. As an American I was always taught that people should be treated equally. I never thought the people in this country were better than anyone else. I THINK THAT IT IS SAD WHEN PEOPLE DO NOT SEE THAT WE ALL LIVE UNDER THE SAME SKY, BREATH THE SAME AIR, AND ARE ONLY SEPERATED BY WATER.
Absolutely agree with Tuesday May 11, 2004 in #863.
And esspecially about Perl Harbor and WWII.
WAS IT WORTH IT? ;o
To Kristen: you words are really good, but sorry to say that you are one of the brain washed Americans, please consider the following as assumptions only, and put it in your mind, then start to analyze the different point of views logically and depending on the foreign media or internet.
The assumptions:
– Bush and his assistances are business men, they are translating every thing to gains and losses.
– Osama bin ladin can’t do an operation such as September 11.
– Bush and his assistances knew who is behind September 11.
– But they wanted to attack Afghanistan to control the oil in the east.
– September 11 story, is a good justification to attack Afghanistan.
– One Jewish only of 4000 Jewish dead in September 11.
– Jewish did September 11, but they are very big business men, they can destroy bush’s business, they can also kill him.
– There is no relation between September 11 and Iraq war.
– There is no relation between osama bin ladin and Iraq.
– We killed 10,000 civilians in Iraq, to bring freedom there! , this bull shitt.
– Our democracy is to torture peaceful people without judgment, in Iraq & goitanamo!
– There are no mass destructive weapons in Iraq.
– Then the target should be oil and only oil.
– Our leader made Americans the most hated people in the world.
– They killed 4000 people in September 11.
– They are controlling our media.
– We are completely brain washed.
– So the target of our leaders is only money.
– Yes, every thing is translated to gains and losses.
– If killing of Americans is a money gain, then our leaders will kill us.
oooh my god this is horrible, may be I am wrong, I wish I am wrong.
yes sorry, i checked it and i was wrong about the pearl harbour part… sorry for that.
but please read the other parts of my post from yesterday, and think about that:
yeah right”¦ do you really think that america is the only free country in the world? What about europe! France, germany, great britain. Those countries are much more ‘free’ that the USA, i’m sure of that.
And why are americans so childish? Change the word French-Fries into Freedom-Fries, en Frenck-Kiss into Freedom-Kiss”¦ how silly!!
France and Germany were the only countries of this sick world who were brave enough to say something about the stupid things that Bush is doing. Other countries in europe (including mine) didn’t say something about it, because then Bush will say: The dutch people are terrorists, lets attack them!
Many patriottic americans think that the whole world loves the USA and than we all look up to you. Well, people who think that are very very wrong.
Wow, sad picture. One day last week, The print edition of the USAToday had their front page covered with pictures of soldiers who have been killed since the ‘end’ of the ‘war’. It brought tears to my eyes! I couldn’t help but think of all the sons and daughters who will never get to tell mom or dad they love them again. How many parents have had to suffer the unimaginable pain of losing a child. This thing ( war if you wanna call it that. ) has to end! The only thing I really see it accomplishing is making more of our global family hate us.
Now I wanna reply to a few comments I have read here. For the people who think the USA saved Europe from the Nazis, I’m sorry, but we didn’t ‘win’ WWII for the allies. America did hasten the process. Hitler was shifting his troops around in a panic trying to fend off the Russians, Brits and other European troops. With out American help the war would have lasted maybe two more years at the most. I am not trying to denounce or demean the Americans contribution to WWII, I lost relatives in Holland and Germany. And I know that without the American sacrifices in that war millions of more people would have died before it ended. Hitler tried and succeeded in conquering several of his neighboring countries, and installed his own type of rule, before anybody tried to do anything about it. The main reason America entered WWII was because we knew that with Russia and China as ‘allies’, the Japanese would have something other than just America to worry about.
Hussain tried and failed to take over a neighboring country. But as soon as there was a provocation, ( even though it wasn’t from him or his country ) we America attack. Most if not all of the 9/11 terrorists came from our, I mean Bush’s buddy, Saudi Arabia. America gave Saddam money, arms, training, among other goodies to help bring him to power and to help ‘bring down’ Iran’s leadership af the time. Then about ten or so years later, America is giving Osamma the money, arms and training, to try to help him drive the communists out of Afganistan. Even then Osamma had stated how he thought America was evil. But still we gave him the info and training on how to wage ‘American’ battles. As much as I hate to say it, but there was a reason for the first Gulf war. Too bad Papa Bush didn’t get Sadaam out then, like he should have. I know it would have cost more lives at the time, but we wouldn’t be going through what we are now. Then we had most of the worlds support, and there was at least one REAL reason to go, even if it was just for the Kuwait peoples. Unfortunately, this presidency has given us a few reasons we went over there, and the only one that is true is his inhumane treatment of his own citizens. And most of those atrocities were commited in the early to mid eighties.
When America first went into Iraq the second time, I didn’t think it was too good of an idea. But I supported it. I believed the spiel about the WMD’s. And I felt Sadaam needed to go. But now, Sadaam is gone. I realize the need for troops in Iraq, but I feel we need to do what the Iraqi citizens want and need us to do. NOT what Bush and Ashcroft wants. Let the people of Iraq rebuild Iraq with some American help ( if it’s needed ). Not The relatives and friends companies of the American rulers. I for one would gladly pay double what I’m paying now for gas if it could keep one more soldier or innocent Iraqi from losing their life.
Eric M. an admitted teenage in post 864 said:
“Bush is doing a fine job and this picture offends me because he is not trying to kill our soldiers, he is just trying to hlep a country that is not as free as us. We are helping others”
End quote by Eric. M.
Ben’s response:
Eric, your gross ignorance is why I support more funding for public education.
Bush is not “trying to hlep [sic] another country that is not as free as us [sic]”. He’s carrying out a neocon agenda for building an Empire while lining the pockets of his friends at Halliburton.
As for “helping others” (or should I say “hleping?), consider this little man:
We have arrested 43,000 Iraquis so far in the war. We have presented 600 for prosecution. If the local cops did that, I’d be calling for regime change. Many of the arrests are arbitrary. And if you watch the news, boy, you’ll see we’re not exactly “hleping” the prisoners.
Go to Iraq, Eric. You might learn something.
– Ben
We are all in the same boat, support our president, support our troops, safe their lives and our lives, prevent them from attacking others in our names for money, the bull shitt story of freedom and democracy is not valid any more.
To Kristen: you words are really good, but sorry to say that you are one of the brain washed Americans, please consider the following as assumptions only, and put it in your mind, then start to analyze the different point of views logically and depending on the foreign media or internet.
The assumptions:
– Bush and his assistances are business men, they are translating every thing to gains and losses.
– Osama bin ladin can’t do an operation such as September 11.
– Bush and his assistances knew who is behind September 11.
– But they wanted to attack Afghanistan to control the oil in the east.
– September 11 story, is a good justification to attack Afghanistan.
– One Jewish only of 4000 Jewish dead in September 11.
– Jewish did September 11, but they are very big business men, they can destroy bush’s business, they can also kill him.
– There is no relation between September 11 and Iraq war.
– There is no relation between osama bin ladin and Iraq.
– We killed 10,000 civilians in Iraq, to bring freedom there! , this bull shitt.
– Our democracy is to torture peaceful people without judgment, in Iraq & goitanamo!
– There are no mass destructive weapons in Iraq.
– Then the target should be oil and only oil.
– Our leader made Americans the most hated people in the world.
– They killed 4000 people in September 11.
– They are controlling our media.
– We are completely brain washed.
– So the target of our leaders is only money.
– Yes, every thing is translated to gains and losses.
– If killing of Americans is a money gain, then our leaders will kill us.
oooh my god this is horrible, may be I am wrong, I wish I am Wrong.
Here’s a reasonable description of what is going on in Iraq. The playing out of some “fantasy” about how the Iraq war will be won.
Fantastical Occupation
By Harold Meyerson
Wednesday, May 12, 2004; Page A23
Back when he was running for president, in 2000, Sen. John McCain routinely referred to Bill Clinton’s handling of world affairs as a “feckless photo-op foreign policy.” Four years later, Clinton’s foreign policy seems fairly filled with feck when contrasted with his successor’s.
Has any official United States policy in recent memory been as feckless as the Bush administration’s for postwar Iraq? Can we, for a moment, recall just some of the assumptions that the administration announced or embraced? That Americans would be welcomed as liberators? That we could secure the nation with a force of a little more than 100,000 troops? That Iraqi oil revenue would be such that the occupation would pay for itself? That, in accord with our assumptions on troop requirements and postwar financing, we didn’t really need the kind of international cooperation that the nation had historically sought for this kind of venture? That, in accord with the same assumptions, there was no reason not to enact more massive tax cuts for the rich?
With the revelations that have emerged of the degradation and torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison, it’s become particularly clear that the administration gave no real thought to the challenges at the very heart of occupying another country. Occupations can be relatively benign, but only when the occupier is viewed by the occupied as a temporary, legitimate expedient, concerned with and able to enhance the occupied nation’s reconstruction. If that perception begins to crumble, and if resistance erupts, occupations turn brutal, no matter how noble their goals may be.
That hasn’t always posed an immediate problem for many of history’s leading occupying powers: Imperial Rome and, until its latter days, imperial Britain weren’t troubled very much by the opinions of a resentful public. But the United States, and the entire Western world, are engaged in a long-term battle against fundamentalist Islam, a battle that ultimately and immediately has as its goal the Islamic public’s support. At times that battle must be military, as was the case in Afghanistan after the al Qaeda attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Most of the time, however, that battle will be fought in the social, political and economic spheres, and it is on that terrain that the liberal democratic model will — or should — triumph.
Which is why military occupations offer the worst possible terrain on which to fight the battle of ideas. From the French in Indochina and Algeria to the British in South Asia and the United States in Central America and Vietnam, occupations are where liberal democracies go to betray their ideals — if not as a matter of intent then, inevitably, as a matter of execution. One way or another, it becomes necessary to destroy the village in order to save it.
But if one thing is clear beyond dispute in the muddle of post-Saddam Iraq, it is that the Bush administration gave no thought whatever to the problems inherent in occupation. No one thought to protect Iraq’s cultural treasures. No one thought to secure the nation’s power grid. No one thought to enlarge our own armed forces, so that we weren’t sending civilian National Guard troops and private contractors to do a soldier’s job, with a clear chain of command in place.
And clearly, no one sought to train those Guardsmen assigned to duty at Abu Ghraib prison in the rudiments of the Geneva Conventions and our Army’s regulations on the treatment of prisoners. Instead, they were thrown into a system that was being redesigned to “Gitmo-ize” the treatment of detainees there — that is, to deal with prisoners the same way we treat the al Qaeda prisoners and others at our Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba, free from prying eyes and the codes of either civilian or military law. And Gitmo-ize the prisoners is just what some of our guards at Abu Ghraib did. Some prisoners, apparently, were Gitmo-ized to death.
It defies all belief that the young women and men of an Army Reserve unit from West Virginia were some kind of sadistic cult just waiting to be called away from their civilian lives to torture prisoners in Iraq. I doubt they brought the hoods, the dogs, the nightsticks with them. They were doing the very dirty work of an occupation that, as it’s developed, could hardly be more counterproductive to our ultimate goal — the liberalization of the Islamic world — if we’d planned it that way.
But then, at the White House and at the highest (that is, civilian) levels of the Pentagon, every assumption about the occupation was rooted in fantasy. And on that topic and its role in the affairs of the occupiers and the occupied, I defer to Ireland’s great poet, William Butler Yeats. “We fed the heart on fantasy,” he wrote, “the heart grew brutal on the fare.”
The liberal media is responsible for micromanagement of a war that is for the good of all humankind. To think otherwise is self-serving and hypocritical. We are so lucky to live in our situation. There will be loss of life when good conquers evil. There will also be wrongful acts by a few of our own. But to paint a portrait of our president with the faces of the true heros of the world in order to disgrace him is tatamount to treason. I know the sorrow involved with death of a loved one, but those who died did so willingly and are of much higher esteem than the “artist” who created this work.
to #876 – One Jewish only of 4000 Jewish dead in September 11.
– Jewish did September 11, but they are very big business men, they can destroy bush’s business, they can also kill him
may i ask you how you know this statement it sounds a little farfetched to me… dont you think, please post some real facts to back up what your are saying because im having some trouble believing it also if you think we’re taking over the oil in the east why are our gasoline prices skyrocketing. considering you have the answers to everything i figure youd be the best one to tell me.
if you think we’re taking over the oil in the east why are our gasoline prices skyrocketing?
My answer:
– Our plan was to attack Iraq and control oil in 6 days period, but we failed to do.
– Our plan was to get Iraqis in our side, but they are fighting us strongly.
– Our plan was to attack Iraq, with Europe and Arabs support, but only few afraid countries did.
– The oil lines are being continually destroyed by Iraqis resisting.
– The oil selling is being stopped continually due to Iraqis attacks.
Who is behind September 11?
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/meyssan1.htm
Put these words in google.com search engine – Who is behind September 11- and use your mind.
We Americans are some stupid workers in a big dirty firm called USA, The administration will start to kill us if this is a money gain.
In post # 878 “Eric” states….
The liberal media is responsible for micromanagement of a war that is for the good of all humankind. To think otherwise is self-serving and hypocritical. We are so lucky to live in our situation. There will be loss of life when good conquers evil. There will also be wrongful acts by a few of our own. But to paint a portrait of our president with the faces of the true heros of the world in order to disgrace him is tatamount to treason. I know the sorrow involved with death of a loved one, but those who died did so willingly and are of much higher esteem than the “artist” who created this work.
Comment by Eric “” Wednesday May 12, 2004 @ 1:11 pm
Response by Ben:
Eric, you have bought into the myth that the media is “liberal”. It is not. While there are notable “left leaning” magazines and newpapers, the majority of “large” media outlets (i.e. news channels with viewership greater than a million) are either centrist or clearly over on the right wing. Fox News, MSNBC, the Washington Times, New York Post, Rush Limbaugh, etc. all have a distinct right wing bias.
As for the press, you can hardly accuse them of “managing” , let alone “micromanaging,” the war. Journalists didn’t send troops to Iraq, the President did. Journalists didn’t set policy at Abu Gharaib prison, the Pentagon and CIA did.
As for the war being “good for all humankind,” I beg to differ. 43000 Iraquis have been arrested since the U.S. invaded. Only 600 have been charged with any kind of crime. How is it good when law abiding citizens are routinely arrested, held, denied access to the legal system, or even contact with the Red Cross or their families?
Is this your idea of “self serving and hypocritical” thinking? Would you feel that way if you, or someone you knew were arrested, and held without bail, without charges, without access to a phone or a lawyer for months, stripped, beaten, interrogated, and then finally released?
What you also fail to realize is that these abuses (which violate the Geneva Convention) are not isolated incidents, but are normal practices in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As for the portrait being “tatamount [sic] to treason,” now, you’re just being childish. Treason as defined by the Constitution is “levying War against them [the people of the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort”.
If posting an derogatory picture of the President, is Treason, then every political cartoonist going back to 1776 is guilty of the same.
The artist is no less patriotic for his work. Patriots are not afraid to question, and even criticize, their government. Nor do patriots question the patriotism of those that do. But I guess you’re not a patriot.
Image looks familiar: check out number three in the slide show… http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3707685.stm
Response to Ben:
The list you gave me included 3 liberal minded media outlets…but that is not the point of my response…
Obviously, the President sent the troops, but the press decides what we see…and we only see the ugly side, there are many great deeds done daily by the vast majority of our soldiers. When the press decides to do this, then yes, they are in fact micromanaging by swaying public opinion…and the resultant policy decisions based on public pressure. As for the 43,000 arrests…think about the situation the soldiers face…who is the enemy when you have hundreds if not thousands of Iraqi people dancing in the streets over the death or destuction of American personel or equipment? What would you do? Do you seriously believe that 43,000 arrested “law-abiding” people were beaten etc…then released…because if you do then you have fallen into the mind-set of the liberals.
Please look at your definition of treason….and then realize that the portrait in fact does give aid and comfort to the terrorists that wish to sway public opinion to their anarchist ways and means. (I can assure you I am not being “childish”, so let’s keep the name-calling out of this discussion) Also, this portrait is not a “cartoon” by any stretch of the imagination. Also, you contradict yourself by saying I’m not a patriot, when I’m doing exactly what the artist has done, voicing my opinion in an effort to make this a better world. Also, using the soldiers’ photos is a disrespect to them. There was no consideration of how they would feel about their photos being used in this way. I respect your opinion.
Why not give our President a break? Through advice and guidence he is doing the best he can.Don’t get personal.
R Johnson,
Unless you have some sort of speical relationship with the president, perhaps family? a worker for the administration ? I don’t see how anybody can give that guy a break… He’s the president for god sakes, it’s NOT a joke to be in that prestigious position….. and most importantly he is NOT doing the best he can… he should not have f–ked up in the first place… sure nobody’s perfect, mistakes are bound to happen but I expect them to be the spilling of a glass of milk or maybe a little slip-up on the speeches or some other minor thing NOT the prisoner scandal or the Iraq scandal or 911 incompetence scandal or even the general incompetence of the administration itself!
The president is NOT there to serve himself…… he is there to serve the public….. and if you’re the American president the responsibility is even greater than just serving under your own countrymen, all the citizens of the world are, more or less, your responsibility as well.
When terrorists attacked us and in response, under HIS leadership, we’re only doing a half-ass job- I get personal.
Before he was voted in office, the country had the biggest surplus in many years and not long after he squandered everything even digging deeper into an already deep hole with UNNECESSARY spending (for example, enormous funding on “faith based groups” or should I just call it the charity to Christianity….. it’s not like the country is prospering like the good ‘o days so why are we putting very limited resounces and energy into “god” when there are countless more urgent matters we need to deal with frankly baffles me! Where’s the funding to transportation and infrastructure? Where’s the funding to health care? to retirement security? social security? Where’s the funding to improve inner city environment? Where’s the funding to protect the environement or to sustain our fragile eco-systems? Where’s the funding to combat gas prices? to deal with energy with cleaner and more efficient fuel systems? etc etc etc etc etc.) -when he failed on all that- I get personal.
The terrorist issue as well….. when he ask to commit troops, it our sons and daughters, fathers and mothers who are heading the front line….. we expect them to fight for a good worthy cause but when the administration made the move to recall troops from the Afghan front (the real battle against terrorist…. the “unfinished business”) to Iraq, basically to occupy Iraq….. we have to question his motives and reason and frankly few can buy them- thus I get personal.
Look, it is not just I who gets personal with the persident but there are probably thousands if not millions of us (around the world) who have exactly the same sentiment…. the way to deal with it is either to put up with it and hopefully correct the problems OR resign OR better yet surrender the seat to somebody who can make a difference, who is more competent.
/// The artist is no less patriotic for his work. Patriots are not afraid to question, and even criticize, their government. Nor do patriots question the patriotism of those that do. But I guess you’re not a patriot. ///
Patriot or not shouldn’t even be an issue. Anybody who raises it is clouding what we all really need to focus on : that’s how to make America a better place…. in fact it should be how to make the world a better place.
And it’s safe to say “wars” don’t help. I don’t care if it is justified or not… they don’t help because no matter how light the conflict is or how light the casualty toll is one thing’s not going to change, there are going to be losers of the war and those are the people who are going to be angry at you (at your side) since they are the “enemy” afterall. Now I’m not necessarily preaching against the war on terrorism or even the current Iraq war itself but I trying to show you that don’t think for a second that we have the moral highground here or that we are correct in everything we’ve done or are still doing. We’re not. And most of all, we don’t have the right to judge…. we can only take it case by case. The capturing of Saddam is a good deed but the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib is not. So how can we justify a blanket statement such as those who are against the war are not patriotic when some of those who are fighting the war are doing good to humanity while others aren’t whatsoever? How can one not be patriotic when we inform ourselves of those abuses and make aware that they would eventually jepordize MORE American lives if things don’t get corrected or change? The same can be said of the artist who made the mosaic. Think about it.
In post # 883 Eric states:
Response to Ben:
The list you gave me included 3 liberal minded media outlets”¦but that is not the point of my response”¦
Obviously, the President sent the troops, but the press decides what we see”¦and we only see the ugly side, there are many great deeds done daily by the vast majority of our soldiers. When the press decides to do this, then yes, they are in fact micromanaging by swaying public opinion”¦and the resultant policy decisions based on public pressure. As for the 43,000 arrests”¦think about the situation the soldiers face”¦who is the enemy when you have hundreds if not thousands of Iraqi people dancing in the streets over the death or destuction of American personel or equipment? What would you do? Do you seriously believe that 43,000 arrested “law-abiding” people were beaten etc”¦then released”¦because if you do then you have fallen into the mind-set of the liberals.
Please look at your definition of treason”¦.and then realize that the portrait in fact does give aid and comfort to the terrorists that wish to sway public opinion to their anarchist ways and means. (I can assure you I am not being “childish”, so let’s keep the name-calling out of this discussion) Also, this portrait is not a “cartoon” by any stretch of the imagination. Also, you contradict yourself by saying I’m not a patriot, when I’m doing exactly what the artist has done, voicing my opinion in an effort to make this a better world. Also, using the soldiers’ photos is a disrespect to them. There was no consideration of how they would feel about their photos being used in this way. I respect your opinion.
Comment by Eric “” Thursday May 13, 2004 @ 11:05 am
Response by Ben:
If you think Fox News, MSNBC, the Washington Times, New York Post, are “liberal” then what do you define as “conservative”?
As for your ridiculous “micromanaging” argument, perhaps you should re-take your American History class. The founding fathers stated that “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press”. It was the FIRST amendment they made. Obviously, they, unlike you, understood that a democracy cannot function without a FREE press.
As for all the “good” that we’re doing there, yes, there IS good going on. However, it has to be weighed along with the bad that is going on.
As for what I would do if in Iraq, I don’t know. I’d like to think I wouldn’t randomly arrest people. I’m an American, and I was raised to believe that there should be a reason to arrest someone before you do it.
As for the 43,000 being mistreated, well, yes, if being arrested for no reason is mistreatment, then, they were in fact mistreated. What would you call it if the cops pulled you over, dragged you out of your car, cuffed you, took you to jail, held you for a month, and then released you? And what if they did it, without letting you call your family, talk to a lawyer, or even see the Red Cross, and then they didn’t even charge you with a crime?
As for falling into a mindset, you’re the one who’s fallen, and apparently hard. Because false arrest, in your view, is ok.
As for this “portrait” giving “aid and comfort to the enemy,” please. Now you really are showing yourself as a teenager. Have you read the postings here? Most of them are from Americans. How many “Iraqi insurgents” have written something?
If you say that what the “artist” has done is almost “treason” then say “I’m doing exactly [your word] what the artist has done,” aren’t you saying that you’re treasonous too?
As for “disrespecting the dead” by using their photos, I beg to differ. I can think of no higher honor, than to show the human cost, the face of the dead, in what is a deeply divisive, and poorly thought out war. Do you remember, Eric, when Wolfowitz said that our biggest hurdle would be dealing with all the flowers that the Iraqi people brought our soldiers? I do. Clearly, he hadn’t thought this thing through.
There is a culture of revenge in Iraq. And we’ll see that up close as long as we’re there.
– Ben
Every thing is upside down
invading Iraq & Afghnistan is ===> binging freedom
tortoring without judjment is ===> democracy
killing 10,000 people is ===> helping others
How are we fool!
Get out and galvanize the Democratic Vote. Don’t sit idly by and think that someone else will pick up the slack to campaign. If you think this way, you are certainly giving votes to Bush. Please go out and volunteer or send as little as $25 to the Kerry campaign. For the first time ever, I have contributed and I feel great b/c I am finally giving more than just lip service. In order to beat Bush, we will have to give until it hurts b/c the Un-President has raised so much dirty money to fund his campaign. Please volunteer and go to this link to see when the next Kerry Campaign meeting is in your town…GET UP AND MOTIVATE! You will meet people who share the same feelings most of us have on this board and that is REFRESHING!!!! Go to the following to find out more:
http://kerry2004.meetup.com/
Gumbogirl with all due respect, I admire your enthusiasm in your political activism….. however I must disagree with your point of view that “contributing” to the campaign means a spontaneous removal of W Bush…. look, what really matters here is what every American citizen has the god-given right to do- and that’s to ‘vote’. What’s most important here is my vote for the right candidate, whether that’s Kerry or Nader or even perhaps Bush himself…. but the point here is voting is what counts the most….. and donating contributions to the campaigns is all extraneous substance that frankly alot of campaigns can do without.
It’s the message that counts, not how you present it.
So even tho I’m raising the banner of “Anyone but Bush” and I will not dismiss the possibility of voting democrat come election time, I’m, however, refusing to invest any of my resources or energy (altho I’ve spent quite alot of time on this board voicing my opinion here) to any political party just because it’s convenient to do…. or conveniently “anti-Bush”
Altho I do endorse the removal of the current administration from office, my vote means ALOT more than that. I am looking for the party with the best interest of America in mind…. the best interest of the American public and if it is all possible, the best interest of the greater world in general. Unfortunately Democrats are not quite there yet…. so if I am going to vote Democrat, it’s going to be because of the lesser of two evils, and nothing else.
In comment # 889 Gumbogirl said “Get out and galvanize the Democratic Vote. Don’t sit idly by and think that someone else will pick up the slack to campaign. If you think this way, you are certainly giving votes to Bush. Please go out and volunteer or send as little as $25 to the Kerry campaign. For the first time ever, I have contributed and I feel great b/c I am finally giving more than just lip service. In order to beat Bush, we will have to give until it hurts b/c the Un-President has raised so much dirty money to fund his campaign. Please volunteer and go to this link to see when the next Kerry Campaign meeting is in your town”¦GET UP AND MOTIVATE! You will meet people who share the same feelings most of us have on this board and that is REFRESHING!!!! Go to the following to find out more:
http://kerry2004.meetup.com/
Comment by gumbogrrl “” Thursday May 13, 2004 @ 7:14 pm
–> Ben responds:
You go, Gumbo Girl! You’re right! I’ve given $25 also to the Kerry Campaign, and to MoveOn, and a few other righteous causes. I’m registering people to vote in VA, and I’m also thinking about going to Ohio to help register people to kick Bush out in November. It’s not about lip service. It’s about action. There are too many dumb Republican sheep (“baaa, Iraq was right, baaaa”). For those of us walking about on two feet to AND thinking, we have to get involved. I hope you’ll stay involved after November.
Ronald is wrong about the impact of contributions to elections. Money allows candidates to buy ads. Ads help sway the sheep to vote for them. “Baaaa, support the President, baaaaa.” So giving Kerry money helps him to buy ads to send another message. If money weren’t important, do you think that j@ck@ass GW would be raising so much of it?
– Ben
///Ads help sway the sheep to vote for them. “Baaaa, support the President, baaaaa.” So giving Kerry money helps him to buy ads to send another message.///
In that regard I agree with you. But don’t you think that means the message itself is lost along the way? I mean what exactly is the reason for throwing our money away? Just to help some politican to get on some TV ad? Just to sway votes in the interest of some campaign? NO thanks I say.
Politicans themsleves make more than enough money already. I don’t care if it’s Bush or Kerry, they’ll squander the money just fill up their already large bank accounts. And for what? Ads? Are you kidding me? Have you seen what they air on TV nowadays? It’s ridiculous! It’s nothing but over-blown sophisticated discourse of “childish behavior” …..might as well make Kerry and Bush meet face to face and tattle tale eachother for months and months, just like what kindergarteners do everyday of the school week!
Look again, the messages themselves are what’s the most important here…. you don’t need sophisticated ad campaigns or other method of “selling” strategies to sway the masses…. you just need a pen and paper to write down what you are going to do to serve in the best interest of our country? …and perhaps let reporters report that message or through the internet or other non-expensive way to get the message across…. of course the message itself is very important. You can’t just tell me if you get elected for office, you will combat terrorism by deploying the army and that is better for America. That just doesn’t wash. Other than using deadly force, what are your plans or strategy to win the battle and what are your plans for prevention without sacificing our own way of life or the dignity of others, in the non-American world for instance. And everybody knows what we’re doing in Iraq, for example, is wrong…. are you willing to admit to wrong when you are elected to office? And are you willing to sacifice, even to yourself, to correct that wrongdoing? The president is supposed to work FOR the people, and nobody else. That’s what I’m looking for in the election.
Look I am an American. Since I am an american I support my country. I am willing to go to war for my country if time calls for it. I am going to join the Marine Corp in one year (i am 16 now). Bush may have made some bad choices but so has every other President. If you ask me I think that Bush had some guts to be willing to hurt his career to help out another country. He did what needed to be done not what the media wants. The news turns everything around, you never see everything. You only see what the media chooses for you to see. You people are AMERICAN so act like one. You should be proud of your country and your freedom. By living in america you had the choice for which job you chose, YOU had the CHOICE on where you lived, YOU have the CHOICE whether or not to like bush, YOU would not have any of this if you were not FREE! I read to much negative things in the media right now and I am tired of the B.S. that is published. Start to be proud of your country and what it does for you! I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!
~Semper Fidelis
In post #892 “Eric” states:
…BEGIN POST BY ERIC….
Look I am an American. Since I am an american I support my country. I am willing to go to war for my country if time calls for it. I am going to join the Marine Corp in one year (i am 16 now). Bush may have made some bad choices but so has every other President. If you ask me I think that Bush had some guts to be willing to hurt his career to help out another country. He did what needed to be done not what the media wants. The news turns everything around, you never see everything. You only see what the media chooses for you to see. You people are AMERICAN so act like one. You should be proud of your country and your freedom. By living in america you had the choice for which job you chose, YOU had the CHOICE on where you lived, YOU have the CHOICE whether or not to like bush, YOU would not have any of this if you were not FREE! I read to much negative things in the media right now and I am tired of the B.S. that is published. Start to be proud of your country and what it does for you! I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!
~Semper Fidelis
Comment by Eric M “” Friday May 14, 2004 @ 12:18 pm
…END POST BY ERIC…
Ben’s response:
Ah. Now we have it. With all the “wisdom” of your 16 years, you tell us, your elders “how Americans should behave.” You amuse me. Tell me, Eric, is the ink on your drivers license still wet?
How is 10th grade going? Have you finished Trigonometry yet?
Look, you might mean well, but you are a little kid.
I’ve been DRIVING longer than you’ve been ALIVE.
I’ve finished college, and grad school, and been working for twenty years.
And in that time I’ve learned a few things that you haven’t (yet.)
Chief among these, is that the greatest threat to democracy usually comes from within. That’s right, Eric. The people we should be MOST afraid of are OTHER Americans. You know, guys like Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz, who will gladly send misguided and naive young men like you to DIE in the name of “national security.”
Let’s review, shall we: Fifteen of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia (a country of corrupt, despotic rulers) (source: FBI interview http://baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.shtml).
There is a wealth of evidence that Saudi Arabia has been financing al-Qaeda. You may remember them. Their leader is a guy named Osama bin Laden. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/964663.asp?0sl=-22&cp1=1)
Saudi Arabia and Pakistan were TWO countries out of ONLY THREE in the world to recognize the Taliban government in Afghanistan. (www.finalcall.com/perspectives/interviews/ taliban01-09-2001.htm)
Al-Qaeda is known to operate out of Pakistan. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A44160-2002Apr24)
So what is the FIRST item on the agenda at the FIRST cabinet meeting of our Monkey-Boy President? Attacking Iraq. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0114/p03s01-uspo.html)
Okay. I know this is hard for you to understand, because, hey, you’re a kid. You’re probably in a bad public school system, and your parents haven’t done much of a job educating you.
But it’s like this. The President bullshitted us. Okay? He lied. And he pushed us into a war that wasn’t well thought out. Nobody gave a thought to what would happen after Hussein fell. And we’re up to our asses in alligators.
Being a good American means caring that your countrymen don’t die to settle some perceived “slight” by the President. Being a good American means making sure your government isn’t bullshitting you, and when you catch them (with the help of a free, and often critical, press) you call them on it. You’re right that every President makes mistakes, but most Presidents mistakes don’t involve starting a war (especially one this large). And you’re wrong about Bush’s motivations. He didnt’ go to “help Iraq”. He went to carry out a neoconservative agenda that includes taking over the middle east. Of course, you wouldn’t realize that, because you don’t read, do you? That, and you hang around with 16 year olds. (Hint: they are not the best source of news).
Oh, and by the way “being proud of your country” should NEVER include being proud of your country when it does STUPID CRAP. Okay? Would you Dad be “proud” of you if you wrapped the Chevy around a tree? No.
I love my country. I despise George Bush. I’m ashamed of the idiocy in Iraq.
One final suggestion. Instead of going to the Marines, why don’t you stick around, finish HIGH SCHOOL, go to college, work for a few years, read a few books, and then come back and post something here. Maybe then you can speak about what it is to “be an American.”
– Ben
Ben,
Well for starters I go to a respected Catholic High School not a poor public school. Second my Mom is very educated and is a well respected Doctor. Third, I read a lot and have great grades in school. Fourth and final I have worked for five years, i proudly run my own landscaping business and work as maintnance at my church and i work at a party house. The landscaping busines i work for 13 clients.
Ok so now that I got all of your insults out of the way lets talk war and bush. I do not completly agree with what Bush did and I never said that I did. Although as Americans we voted for him and elected him as president. Yes I know that he did not win by votes and all the crap but he still could not have got to that position if it was not for us. I agree that we were not planned for iraq but you should not turn against your country because they made a mistake. I may just be starting to drive and not even voting yet but I have read about the war quite a lot. We went to iraq to get rid of Saddam and rid the place of WMD. Yea I know that there are no WMD but we still got rid of saddam and over all helped the people. We are much better than Saddam believe it or not. The US death toll is only 777 so far and there are well over a 100,000 troops in iraq. So far I would say that we are doing great.
With the Abuse crap that needs to go. The part of the man standing on the box rigged with wires is simply interigation, everyone does it. The pictures of the naked prisioners though is abuse and the people taking any of the pictures needs to be court marshelled. The media is making to big of a deal about it though.
Well ben i hope you respond to see how foolish and insulting your remarks were. Oh and on top of everything my father is dead so dont talk about him again!
~semper Fidelis
eric
In post # 895 Eric says:
BEGIN QUOTE BY ERIC
Ben,
Well for starters I go to a respected Catholic High School not a poor public school. Second my Mom is very educated and is a well respected Doctor. Third, I read a lot and have great grades in school. Fourth and final I have worked for five years, i proudly run my own landscaping business and work as maintnance at my church and i work at a party house. The landscaping busines i work for 13 clients.
Ok so now that I got all of your insults out of the way lets talk war and bush. I do not completly agree with what Bush did and I never said that I did. Although as Americans we voted for him and elected him as president. Yes I know that he did not win by votes and all the crap but he still could not have got to that position if it was not for us. I agree that we were not planned for iraq but you should not turn against your country because they made a mistake. I may just be starting to drive and not even voting yet but I have read about the war quite a lot. We went to iraq to get rid of Saddam and rid the place of WMD. Yea I know that there are no WMD but we still got rid of saddam and over all helped the people. We are much better than Saddam believe it or not. The US death toll is only 777 so far and there are well over a 100,000 troops in iraq. So far I would say that we are doing great.
With the Abuse crap that needs to go. The part of the man standing on the box rigged with wires is simply interigation, everyone does it. The pictures of the naked prisioners though is abuse and the people taking any of the pictures needs to be court marshelled. The media is making to big of a deal about it though.
Well ben i hope you respond to see how foolish and insulting your remarks were. Oh and on top of everything my father is dead so dont talk about him again!
~semper Fidelis
eric
Comment by Eric M. “” Friday May 14, 2004 @ 3:37 pm
END QUOTE BY ERIC
Ben’s response:
Eric,
If you’re poor punctuation, grammar and spelling is any indication of your education, I can see why you think as you do. (Hint: the letter “e” appears two times in the correct spelling of “maintnance [sic]”. Can you tell me where? The word you misspelled as “interigation” does not have three “i’s” in it. Is this what you learned in your “respected” Catholic School?)
I’ve always supported more money for public schools because ignorant people such as yourself voted for George Bush in 2000, and look where it’s gotten us.
You miss my point. I’m not “against my country” as you state. Apparently you have yet to cover the differences between a “country” and a “government”. Stick around. I’m sure they’ll teach you that in senior year.
As for the “media” making “to [sic] big a deal out of it”, you’re wrong again. When we violate the Geneva Convention (look it up, as you probably haven’t learned it in your “respected Catholic school”) we cannot demand that other nations adhere to it.
We want to encourage everyone to respect the Geneva Convention.
I’m sorry about your dad.
– Ben
As for the “everyone does it” argument, it’s irrelevant. Can you go into court with a speeding ticket and argue “But your Honor, EVERYONE does it”? No. But that’s right, you just got your license. Ok. Try it. Next time you get pulled over, just tell the cop, “Everyone does it”. He’ll understand.
///Look I am an American. Since I am an american I support my country. I am willing to go to war for my country if time calls for it. I am going to join the Marine Corp in one year (i am 16 now). Bush may have made some bad choices but so has every other President. ///
If you knew he had made some bad choices (and we all know he is continuing to make them) then why are you supporting him? It just doesn’t make any sense to me why folks like yourself still support a person that is clearly incompetent. Is it because he’s the president? Is it because he’s “Republican”? Is it because he came from the south?
Look, we need to focus on what’s important. The issues that lie in the best interest of the United States of America. Whether or not we’re demeaning the president is not as important as revitalizing our inner city neighborhoods so that low-income families can have a future. Whether or not the political party survive is not as important as finding the solution to combat the problems of fossil fuels with cleaner, more efficient energy generation that would tremedously help our lives. Whether or not we maintain southern pride is not as important as working to better relations with various groups with diverse backgrounds all in the goal of uniteing the country.
Whether or not our troops need supplies and funding for more weapons IS as important as finding ways to prevent wars in the first place so that someday we can finally safely cut military spending and direct those resources to other more important uses.
///If you ask me I think that Bush had some guts to be willing to hurt his career to help out another country. He did what needed to be done not what the media wants. The news turns everything around, you never see everything. You only see what the media chooses for you to see. You people are AMERICAN so act like one. You should be proud of your country and your freedom. ///
If he’s a smart person, he doesn’t need to “hurt” his career to do anything. To me it shows incompetence…. it’s like saying the manager of a burger joint is admiring one of his employee’s “guts” because he’s willing to murder people just to sell some burgers! It just doesn’t make any sense at all. That employee is clearly incompetent, whether or not it takes “guts” to sell those burgers to customers is not even a question at that point.
Nobody is doing anything FOR the media….. do you even know what the media is? The media is folks who are “reporting” what has already been taken place or nowadays, what is happening right this minute, this second. That is what the media is all about…. now you may question whether or not that “reporting” is genuine or not and I’m not going into that since each “report” is vastly different from another. But I hope you at least have a better understanding of what the media is all about.
The fact of the matter is, the policies coming from the Bush administration, from the war policy to economic policy to social policy issues, they’re all substandard at best…. and generally speaking the administration hurts the country more than it helps. I don’t know how to be more blunt than that so by asking me to shut my mouth and ignore how the administration conduct themselves and what they have done in the last 3-4 years is so ridiculous it’s almost scary… it’s like saying don’t ask don’t tell otherwise you’re unpatriotic, period, end of story. Is that what you people think of folks like me?
I am proud of my country and my freedom. I’ve said that countless of times. But the question should be directed to folks like you, are you proud of your country and yoru fellow Americans (like me)? I have nothing against you, in fact I respect you and your opinion but can you honestly do the same?
///By living in america you had the choice for which job you chose, YOU had the CHOICE on where you lived, YOU have the CHOICE whether or not to like bush, YOU would not have any of this if you were not FREE! I read to much negative things in the media right now and I am tired of the B.S. that is published. Start to be proud of your country and what it does for you! I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!///
My choice is to live in polygamist-mormon-communities of Utah and attend their churches there even though I’m not a Christian…. Can I do that? You tell me…. I want to live in Area 51, New Mexico…. Can I do that? You tell me….. I want to be the president of the United States but I must confess, I don’t have the backing of any Washington-dinosaurs or any corporate Fat-cats or special interest groups behind me nor do I have millions in savings, all I got is a few thousand dollars…. Am I in a level playing field as say Kerry or Bush for running a campaign? You tell me….. I want a choice to voice my opinion of Bush and in fact I want to criticise him but why do I and many like me feel it is somehow not mainstream acceptable or taboo to do that, like what you’re telling me now that it doesn’t matter what I say about Bush, if I say anything bad about him, it is unacceptable to YOU…. Why? Is this the choice of freedom I am allowed to enjoy….. You tell me.
I am proud of my country and I think it is the greatest in the world. But when you become ignorant or uncaring or complacent towards the real issues that concerns all of us….. for instance, the welfare of poor in our concern because if we just turn our backs on them and ignore “their” problems maybe Al Queda-like terrorists would take advantage of that situation and turn them from poor nobodies to blood-thirsty terrorists out to get every American they see…. and in the end, it could very well cost us “war” just like the one we’re fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, only we’re fighting countries on the African continent. That’s just one of countless possibilites that may occur in the future and that in essence is the job of the president of the United States…. to deal with these kinds of things. Not ignoring them. Or only acting after the fact.
The media, if you think about it, is the messenger of what I just talked about….. CNN, MSNBC, BBC, NYTimes or whatever is only doing their job in reporting news that is or might be a concern to us….. without them we couldn’t possibly know there is a epidemic of AIDS in Africa…… or perhaps even know there is such a person as Bin Laden or the Al Queda terrorist organization operating in Afghanistan…….. yet the media doesn’t just stop there and reports stuff that are “music to our ears” ……the media, in its purest unbiased form, has to report those kinds of news that aren’t “music to our ears”, that are hard to swallow….. the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, the Monica Lewinsky scandal, the Vietnam war atrocities and countless other scandals that might put “America” (ie anything that is related to America) in some bad light. Yet we can’t just go ahead and dismiss and ignore them, since they ARE the “problem” that plagues our country, our countrymen and our way of life….. at the very least we have to face them so that perhaps there is a chance to correct them so that future generations will not make the same mistakes as in the past…… but by ignoring them or dismissing them as perhaps “unpatriotic” or viewing them as merely “taboo”, nothing’s going to change. The problems are and will always there, they don’t just disappear themselves. Today’s Abu Ghraib’s scandal might very well spread to some other prison facilites in another country and the abuse gets even worse….. if we simply ignore the problem that is exactly what’s going to happen. No checks and balances means everything goes….. but if all of us knew exactly what had happened and we at least get a hearing from the top down, at least we can keep Rumsfeld and others on their toes about this and not let them get away with it. My personal feeling is that Rumsfeld and other higher ups do know what’s going on at the prison camps in Iraq and they’re fully well aware of the activities going on over there but it would nearly be impossible to further this matter with prosecution or “removal” with the same reason why I indicated earlier in this post why I couldn’t possibly compete against bi-partisan political giants for the seat of the Presidency of the United States.
You should be proud to be an American but don’t be too proud to lose focus on the very essence of being one. That means we cannot be complacent towards what we deep down know that is wrong. Facing success and having a positive outlook is easy, the challenge is facing failure and problems that are as crucial to our country’s success in the future.
Ben,
I type fast and I am usually in a hurry. I typed that message right before I went out to work on my tractor (replacing v-belt). I attend a Catholic high school so if you have a problem so be it. We all make spelling errors especially when we are in a rush. I know the Geneva Convention and I know the difference between “government and country”. Someone like you must have no life if you sit there and correct my grammer and spelling. You also must have a crappy job because you respond to my messages right away.
I may not like Bush but I am obligated to accept what he says. I support that we went to war with OBL (osama bin ladin for the dumb ones) and the rest of the Taliban and other terrorist orginizations. Bush should not have brought us to war at the time that he did but it still needed to be done. He should have finished the other job before starting another. In my eyes Bush is not half bad, the only reason I do not like him that much is that he lied to us about Iraq.
Well I am tired and I have to go to WORK tomorrow so I am going to bed. It has been interesting talking!
~semper fidelis
Eric M: “Look I am an American. Since I am an american I support my country.”
Very interesting, Eric! But how you support your country?
Isn’t it better to support your contry to go onto the streets to fight for freedom and justice? And against George W. Bush, your “President”? Who elected him? I think it was his brother in Florida.
What sort of democracy is that? Also he didn’t know anything about torture in Iraq?
Sounds crazy but I knew about torture in Iraq, Eric. I also knew that Powell lied at the UN when he showed some PPT-presentation.
The American was and is lying. So if you want to support your country (not your government but your country), go onto the street and tell your administration that they have to be fair with their own people and not to lie.
Did you know that American administration has sort of fight against Al Djasira? They don’t like them cause Al Djasira is telling unhappy news about the US administration but also about Arabic countries. The US wanted to make Al Djasira quiet, wanted that they don’t send “propaganda” and also said that Al Djasira doesn’t accept Geneva Conventions.
What a derision!
The American administration which knew lots about torturing in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay, Diego Garcia etc, says that Al Djasira doesn’t notice Geneva Conventions?
Don’t you see that your Administration is a gang of liars?
So support your country and show that you are against your Administration – the best way to support your country, dude.
the day is very near, the Moslems will win
i apoplogize if i am repeating anthing that has been said on this page, but i don’t have time to read it all right now!
Although i am completely against the war in iraq, and i can’t help but find the mosaic moving, i am very unsure as to its purpose. Please correct me if i’m wrong, but does this image not give a very one-sided view of the war? If the idea of the image is to change peoples minds, swing them into opposing the war, then i think the creator is going about things the wrong way. peoples minds need to be changed with undertanding of what exactly is wrong with this on-going conflict, not just faced with propaganda showing the many americans whose lives have been lost.
What if a picture was formed of all the iraqi people killed by american troops, and used by their public as a tool to encourage war against america? Would this not be classed as propaganda? so whats the difference here?
If i have completely missed the point then please correct me!
Jan you didn’t miss any point. That’s the beauty of it. Your “point” is as good as mine.
Sadly that’s what most of the pro-Bush pro-war crowd don’t understand is that you are ALLOWED to interpret what the mosaic means anyway you want it. If you feel that is a disgrace to the war effort then that’s perfectly alright… or on the other hand, if you feel that the mosaic is a touching tribute to our fallen heros then that’s alright too…. and anything else in between is also alright.
However (and with what I’ve just said in mind) don’t condemn me or anybody else’s opinion of the mosaic just because you interpret it in a certain way. Don’t attack me for not looking at the mosaic the same way as how you look at it. Right? Is that too much to ask? Am I not even allowed to do that?
Now I’m NOT saying you are gulity of being that way Jan…. in fact I’m very glad you asked the question. I’m saying that because alot of the pro-Bush pro-war crowd can’t seem to grasp that simple concept. So it’s merely something for you think about Jan when you decide to write something here in the future.
///I may not like Bush but I am obligated to accept what he says. I support that we went to war with OBL (osama bin ladin for the dumb ones) and the rest of the Taliban and other terrorist orginizations. Bush should not have brought us to war at the time that he did but it still needed to be done. He should have finished the other job before starting another. In my eyes Bush is not half bad, the only reason I do not like him that much is that he lied to us about Iraq.///
The thing is if you want to talk about respect for the presidency, we can. But in Bush’s case, the sitting president currently in office, doesn’t give us, the American public, the respect we DESERVE! So it’s only natural for “us” to repay the favor. We are in no obligation to follow him blindly, my friend, especially if he is leading us in the “wrong” direction!
Look, what do you think is worse? Lying about having an extramarrial affair or lying about the reasons to attack another country? Who are the victims between the two circumstances? The victim(s) of one is the heartbreak and emotional distress of a wife and family….. the victim(s) of the other is the lives of hundreds of our soldiers and the lives of hundred of thousands of Iraqis.
War is NOT a joke. Yet this president is taking it like one. Now how can any right-minded person still be impressed by his actions? How can we accept his direction? The leadership has failed, there is little recourse we can take back (the way it used to be for example) and if we continue to ignore him or allow him to continue to lead then things can only get worse, not better. The war in Iraq IS going to end one way or another…. whether that means there will be two big ones dropped just like what happened to hiroshima and nagasaki or it means the resistance attacks will gradually die down and rebuilding follows. Iraq, in my opinion, is basically freed from tyranny.
But how we did it and what it took to get there is, and I’ll be blunt, a disgrace. And if Bush has anything to say in the future, he will continue with this kind of agenda and more lives, more resources and energy will be lost. You might say this is only the beginning.
I don’t appreciate how this picture makes fun of Bush. Bush INDIRECTLY caused the deaths of these people. I do not mean to sound cold hearted, but in war, that is how it is. I agree how Bush shouldn’t have started the war in the first place, but you can’t blame him for wanting to make peace and liberate Iraq.
Joseph, thanks for the reponse. i am glad that (unlike many people in this world) you are open to accept other’s views. everyone is alowed to have their say.
Also (although i myself am not an american) i couldn’t agree more with the first paragraph of your following post.
4000 photos have to be added to the above portrait, how?
For all brainwashed Americans, if we are not interesting in lives of others, we should be interesting in our lives.
our president and some Jewish did September 11, to start a war in the Middle East, they killed 4000 people, to put more money in their rich pockets
The following are some of the supporting points.
– Bush and his assistances are business men; they are translating every thing to money gains and losses.
– Osama bin ladin can’t do an operation such as September 11.
– Bush wanted to attack Afghanistan and Iraq to control the oil in the east.
– September 11 story is a good justification to attack Afghanistan.
– One Jewish only of 4000 Jewish dead in September 11.
– Jewish did September 11, but they are very big business men, they can destroy bush’s business, they can also kill him.
– There is no relation between September 11 and Iraq war.
– There is no relation between Osama bin ladin and Iraq.
– There are no mass destructive weapons in Iraq.
– American killed 10,000 civilians in Iraq, to bring freedom there! , this is bull shitt.
– Then the target should be oil and only oil.
– Our leader made Americans the most hated people in the world.
– They killed 4000 people in September 11.
– They are controlling our media.
– We are completely brain washed.
– So the target of our leaders is only money.
– Yes, every thing is translated to money gains and losses.
– If killing of Americans is a money gain, then our leaders will kill us.
– Another supported links
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/meyssan1.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-86c.htm
– If Pentagon was attacked using an American missile, then American did, there is no Osama bin ladin here
– If American attacked Pentagon, then they did it all, they killed 4000 Americans.
– 4000 photos have to be added to the above portrait
Pier, Check this link
http://johnw.host.sk/articles/us/how_israeli_terrorism.htm
In post # 898 Eric M. says ” Ben,
I type fast and I am usually in a hurry. I typed that message right before I went out to work on my tractor (replacing v-belt). I attend a Catholic high school so if you have a problem so be it. We all make spelling errors especially when we are in a rush. I know the Geneva Convention and I know the difference between “government and country”. Someone like you must have no life if you sit there and correct my grammer and spelling. You also must have a crappy job because you respond to my messages right away.
I may not like Bush but I am obligated to accept what he says. I support that we went to war with OBL (osama bin ladin for the dumb ones) and the rest of the Taliban and other terrorist orginizations. Bush should not have brought us to war at the time that he did but it still needed to be done. He should have finished the other job before starting another. In my eyes Bush is not half bad, the only reason I do not like him that much is that he lied to us about Iraq.
Well I am tired and I have to go to WORK tomorrow so I am going to bed. It has been interesting talking!
~semper fidelis
END Comment by Eric M. “” Friday May 14, 2004 @ 10:10 pm
Ben’s response:
Look, if you can spell, and you were in a hurry, ok. I get that. But when you litter your posts with misspellings, and poor grammar, it’s hard to “see” you as well educated, even if you are.
I am glad that you understand that Bush lied to us about the need to go to war in Iraq. That does show you have been paying attention. But it’s not something we should just let go of. He has sent (at last count) 784 Americans to die, and spent (at last count) $130 billion to fight a war that should never have been started.
Good government requires good policy. Good policy needs to be consistent. The U.S. government has befriended, and supported, and even defended numerous governments that are evil and kill their own people. Saddam Hussein’s crimes were *well known* to us for years while we were giving him active support. It is therefore inconsistent (i.e. BAD POLICY) when we turn around and use these SAME crimes as justification for invading his country and removing him from power. George Bush did not care when Hussein was gassing the Kurds. George Bush did not care when Hussein was routinely torturing and killing his people. So why did it suddenly become a justification for war 2003? Eric, if you are as well educated as you claim, then you’ll see that it was nothing more than a way to justify something that could not be justified in any other manner.
It speaks of the average American’s ignorance, that more people did not stand up when Bush was stating this and say “Mr. President, you sir, are a hypocrite!”
What most people don’t understand, is that there are already reports in the press that there is a plan to invade Syria and Iran. (Have you noticed the brand new sanctions against Syria?)
Why should this concern you? If we invade Syria and Iran, without finishing the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will need to reinstate the draft. Look, we started in Iraq, without finishing in Afghanistan. So clearly, it is possible.
Guys like you may very well end up being drafted, to fight in a war, Moreover, it is possible that we won’t be able to win the war. The Vietnamese never gave up fighting, no matter how many casualties they suffered. The Israelis have been fighting the Palestinians for fifty years. It is possible that we may never finish the war in Iraq. It is possible, that we will become bogged down, just like in Vietnam, fighting an endless guerilla war which grinds away at our military, and the morale of our nation, till, like in Vietnam, we just get tired, and leave.
Some people say “The Iraquis like us. They appreciate the schools, etc. that we create for them.” You know, the same was said during Vietnam. We still lost. I hope this is beginning to make sense to you. If a small group of Iraqi’s are committed to fighting us, they can keep us on the defensive for literally years. There is an expression, “Death by a thousand cuts”. That could very well be our future in Iraq.
I hope your landscaping business is going well. My dad had a small business for twenty years, and I know it takes a lot to make one work.
– Ben
Well finally you have matured and stopped with the insults because of my age.
Bush has only been the president for four years now so you cannot blame him for the U.S. sending weapons to iraq. He has been planning the invasion of iraq since he took office. The big mistake on his part was lying for his reason to go and starting this war before finishing the other war. We accually have many other wars as well going on at the time. We are in Haitis, Isreal, Iraq, Afghanistan, and in all other countries doing something whether it is fighting or not.
The point that I am trying to make is that we cannot completly blame Bush for what is happening. Clearly iraq had to be dealt with, just nobody wanted to make the move. Bush has not supported iraq one bit since he took office.
We need to stand back and think of how Clinton or Bush senior should have dealt with iraq and Saddam. If I had the choice I would have gotten rid of Saddam a long time ago.
Bush’s actions with OBL is perfect. He is concentrated on finsing him and is not letting it slip.
Overall Bush has definatly not had a easy term. Not many other presidents had to deal with this type of war. In matter of fact only one other president had to deal with a terrorist attack in the U.S. which was pearl harbor.
Well I have to go to class now my LAP (learning Activity Period) is over so talk to you all later
Eric
Semper Fidelis
I was just looking at all the faces up close of the soldiers who died in the mosaic and quite a number of them are repeated several times. I guess the artist didn’t have enough faces to work with. It’s all propaganda anyway, right!
///What most people don’t understand, is that there are already reports in the press that there is a plan to invade Syria and Iran. (Have you noticed the brand new sanctions against Syria?)
Why should this concern you? If we invade Syria and Iran, without finishing the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will need to reinstate the draft. Look, we started in Iraq, without finishing in Afghanistan. So clearly, it is possible.///
If the WORSE case scenario came true then this administration would be more hopeless than I ever thought it was. If we are going to “help” Syria or Iran in the future then that means we learn nothing about the current situation in Iraq. The war in Iraq looks bad now but it will no doubt be 100 times worse if we target Syria and Iran (since Israel wil be forced into an all-out war against certainly Syria and the Iranians aren’t Iraqis, a whole new geography and culture and obstacle awaits…. certainly the threat of WMD on our troops is going to be VERY real when that happens, unlike now)
All the more reason “anyone but Bush”!
///Well finally you have matured and stopped with the insults because of my age.
Bush has only been the president for four years now so you cannot blame him for the U.S. sending weapons to iraq. He has been planning the invasion of iraq since he took office. The big mistake on his part was lying for his reason to go and starting this war before finishing the other war. We accually have many other wars as well going on at the time. We are in Haitis, Isreal, Iraq, Afghanistan, and in all other countries doing something whether it is fighting or not.
The point that I am trying to make is that we cannot completly blame Bush for what is happening. Clearly iraq had to be dealt with, just nobody wanted to make the move. Bush has not supported iraq one bit since he took office.
We need to stand back and think of how Clinton or Bush senior should have dealt with iraq and Saddam. If I had the choice I would have gotten rid of Saddam a long time ago.
Bush’s actions with OBL is perfect. He is concentrated on finsing him and is not letting it slip.
Overall Bush has definatly not had a easy term. Not many other presidents had to deal with this type of war. In matter of fact only one other president had to deal with a terrorist attack in the U.S. which was pearl harbor.///
Please Please do yourself a favor and learn your history (read as much history books as you can grab them)
Brief pointers,
Pearl Harbour was NOT a “terrorist attack” if by terrorists you mean a bunch of fringe nobodies trying to intimidate us by using deadly force and cowardly acts (ie like what Al Queda did on 911) then Pearl Harbour was clearly not a terrorist attack.
Pearl Harbour was attacked by the Japanese military, sanctioned by Imperial Japan. It is NOT a fringe group nor a bunch of ideological fanatics trying to make a point or two to satisfy their own agenda. The attack on Pearl Harbour and the conflict that follows was MUCH more serious than the war on terrorism of today. Back then we were literally fighting for our survival, remember not only we had to fight on the Pacific front, we had to fight the Nazis on the European front AT THE SAME TIME! That is why we had to drop two big ones on Japan. We did not want to drag the war any longer than we had to since the horror of the war fighting the Nazis took a toll on our troops and it would be devesting for us (if not already so by then) to continue to fight the Pacific war. So we had to do what we had to do. It was tragic and it should never happen again but overall WW2, on both fronts, are fought honorably.
War on terror is not WW2. War on terror cannot be compared to WW2. They are two very different events and two very different entities. We cannot generalize the two events to make them the same or to make them easier to explain for our own satisfaction. We have to look at them case by case, SEPERATELY! We cannot for instance, use the solution of MD (of WMD) on hiroshima against terrorist groups like Al Queda….. simply because Al Queda is scattered all across the globe, including America itself. Are you willing to nuke our own country just to get those terrorists?
The situation of Iraq is not solely the fault of W Bush, you’re right. It goes back many decades ago…. going back to the Reagan administration and even futher back at the time when we were “friends” with the tyrant himself, Saddam Hussein. I’ve touched on this issue many times already on this board. If you don’t mind scrolling back everything I’ve written here, you will probably find what my thoughts are about the Iraq situation. But keep in mind, Iraq is NOT Afghanistan…… it is NOT Al Queda. You have to make that distinction before you can even discuss this.
This is the website of a 94 year old woman who walking cross-country to gather votes for KERRY! Please volunteer your time to his campaign. If a 94 year old woman can get off of her a**, so can we!!!!
http://grannyd.com/
To arrange the mosaic in Bush’s image politicizes and undercuts the great sacrifice of our brave American heroes. The slaughter of Nicholas Berg shows that our enemy is so evil, so cruel that the battle against Islamic extremism is not one which will end at the negotiation tables. There is no turning away from what must be done or the price which must be paid for the freedoms we enjoy. Islamic radicals bent on killing every American they can murder with weapons of mass destruction, bullets, or passenger filled airliners must be hunted down and terminated with extreme prejudice.
Bullshit! Iraq never was so dangerouse as Hollywood showed it! Most of the terrorist are from other Arabic countries and VERY few from Iraq!!! Saddam helped them mostly on words. And even US satilite in the East – Saudy Arabia did much more for the terrorists!!! But they give you cheep oil and can’t be fight against.
I agree that Iran and Afganistan are the countries which support Islamic radicals.
And Weapons of Mass Destraction should have each country – it’s some kind of defense against US evil. Pakistan was one of the target of CIA, but when they proved that they can blast a bomb, even on their own territory, USA forgot about them at once.
US deaths in Iraq: 813 (uncluding 31 suicides), Iraqi civilian causalties 10994, Iraqi military 5663, + 127 others, US Military wounded approx 11,700. Cost to date approx $15,000,000,000.
sorry $115,000,000,000
George: Condi! Nice to see you. What’s happening?
Condi: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.
George: Great. Lay it on me.
Condi: Hu is the new leader of China.
George: That’s what I want to know.
Condi: That’s what I’m telling you.
George: That’s what I’m asking you. Who is the new leader of China?
Condi: Yes.
George: I mean the fellow’s name.
Condi: Hu.
George: The new leader of China.
Condi: Hu.
George: The Chinaman!
Condi: Hu is leading China.
George: Now what are you asking me for?
Condi: I’m telling you, Hu is leading China.
George: Well, I’m asking you. Who is leading China?
Condi: That’s the man’s name.
George: That’s whose name?
Condi: Yes.
George: Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader of
China?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the Middle
East.
Condi: That’s correct.
George: Then who is in China?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir is in China?
Condi: No, sir.
George: Then who is?
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Yassir?
Condi: No, sir.
George: Look, Condi. I need to know the name of the new leader of China. Get
me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone.
Condi: Kofi?
George: No, thanks.
Condi: You want Kofi?
George: No.
Condi: You don’t want Kofi.
George: No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of milk. And
then get me the U.N.
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: Not Yassir! The guy at the U.N.
Condi: Kofi?
George: Milk! Will you please make the call?
Condi: And call who?
George: Who is the guy at the U.N?
Condi: Hu is the guy in China.
George: Will you stay out of China?!
Condi: Yes, sir.
George: And stay out of the Middle East! Just get me the guy at the U.N.
Condi: Kofi.
George: All right! With cream and two sugars. Now get on the phone.
(Condi picks up the phone.)
Condi: Rice, here.
George: Rice? Good idea. And a couple of egg rolls, too. Maybe we should
send some to the guy in China. And the Middle East. Can you get Chinese food
in the Middle East?
to marius :
11,700 died
$115,000,000,000
the real target (oil) is not yet controled.
the false target (terrorism) is increasing.
the failure of America is comming soon.
to marius :
11,700 died
$115,000,000,000 paid.
the real target (oil) is not yet controled.
the false target (terrorism) is increasing.
the failure of America is comming soon.
Decide what we mean. Do we really mean “prevent terrorism”? Or do we really mean “defeat our enemies”? This is the key question, as we shall see.
Is a terrorist someone who kills innocent civilians? We have killed more of them than they have killed of us.
Is a terrorist someone who kills for a political cause? We are killing people in Afghanistan for a political cause.
Is a terrorist someone who kills without reason? Everyone has reasons. Have their reasons been tested in open court? Have ours?
Must we attack everyone who funds and support terrorism? Then we must attack ourselves.
Must we attack those who support and aid terrorists? Then we must attack some of our closest allies.
How are we brainwashed, arn’t we?
In Post # 910 Eric M. said…
“Well finally you have matured and stopped with the insults because of my age.
Bush has only been the president for four years now so you cannot blame him for the U.S. sending weapons to iraq. He has been planning the invasion of iraq since he took office. The big mistake on his part was lying for his reason to go and starting this war before finishing the other war. We accually have many other wars as well going on at the time. We are in Haitis, Isreal, Iraq, Afghanistan, and in all other countries doing something whether it is fighting or not.
The point that I am trying to make is that we cannot completly blame Bush for what is happening. Clearly iraq had to be dealt with, just nobody wanted to make the move. Bush has not supported iraq one bit since he took office.
We need to stand back and think of how Clinton or Bush senior should have dealt with iraq and Saddam. If I had the choice I would have gotten rid of Saddam a long time ago.
Bush’s actions with OBL is perfect. He is concentrated on finsing him and is not letting it slip.
Overall Bush has definatly not had a easy term. Not many other presidents had to deal with this type of war. In matter of fact only one other president had to deal with a terrorist attack in the U.S. which was pearl harbor.
Well I have to go to class now my LAP (learning Activity Period) is over so talk to you all later
Eric
Semper Fidelis
Comment by Eric M. “” Monday May 17, 2004 @ 12:12 pm”
And now here’s Ben’s response:
Eric, Eric, Eric. Once again, with the misspellings. May I suggest using a spell checker, before posting?
“iraq” is capitalized. “accually” is spelled actually. “completly” has another “e” in it.
(I don’t mean to harp, but you look like an idiot when you misspell so many words. Your writing style, and your inability to make a cogent argument doesn’t help either. If you don’t believe me, ask your teacher.)
Now let me address your posting point by point:
“He has been planning the invasion of iraq since he took office.”
—> This is true, and only shows that he was an idiot, willing to go to war BEFORE 9/11. It also shows that he does not understand or support traditional U.S. foreign policy. If he wanted to change that policy, he should have said so, and made a case to the American people for doing so.
“The big mistake on his part was lying for his reason to go and starting this war before finishing the other war.”
—> This is an ENORMOUS mistake. Bush should be impeached for this alone. Americans deserve the truth. Always.
“We accually have many other wars as well going on at the time. We are in Haitis, Isreal, Iraq, Afghanistan, and in all other countries doing something whether it is fighting or not.”
—> True enough. But this merely underscores that we should not have gone into Iraq.
“The point that I am trying to make is that we cannot completly blame Bush for what is happening.”
—> This is true (in part). We can’t blame him for the world as it was when he was elected. We can, and should, blame him for going into Iraq.
“Clearly iraq had to be dealt with, just nobody wanted to make the move.”
—> Eric!! Break out the history books, kid. We *were* dealing with Iraq. Sanctions had been in place for ten years and they were destroying the Iraqi economy. (You know, the thing that was supposedly paying for WMD.)
“Bush has not supported iraq one bit since he took office.”
—> Irrelevant. More relevant is that he HAS supported the Pakistanis and Saudis who WERE backers of OBL. Or weren’t you paying attention?
“We need to stand back and think of how Clinton or Bush senior should have dealt with iraq and Saddam. If I had the choice I would have gotten rid of Saddam a long time ago.”
—> It’s arguable that they made mistakes. It’s arguable that they did the best thing. But what matters most is what we are doing now.
“Bush’s actions with OBL is perfect. He is concentrated on finsing him and is not letting it slip.”
—> Ok, now you’re just wrong. Bush ISN’T “concentrated” [sic] on “finsing” [sic] him (as you so eloquently state). He is concentrating on getting re-elected. He’s spent more days on the road, campaigning, and raising money, and on vacation than any president I can remember.
“Overall Bush has definatly not had a easy term.”
—> I’d agree he’s had his challenges.
“Not many other presidents had to deal with this type of war. In matter of fact only one other president had to deal with a terrorist attack in the U.S. which was pearl harbor.”
—-> As another person said, Pearl Harbor was not a terrorist attack. Again, I’m troubled by your misunderstanding of history, and your inability to make fine distinctions.
It’s fair to say Pearl Harbor was an act of war. It wasn’t a terrorist attack.
“Well I have to go to class now my LAP (learning Activity Period) is over so talk to you all later”
—> Each time I read your postings, I *cringe*. And then I say a little prayer for public education in America. God help us, if you’re the future of this country.
– Ben
Be rational.
Listen to the terrorists’ complaints. We cannot rely on the fallacy (called “the genetic fallacy”) that everything a bad person says must be wrong. For example, Bin Laden cited the massacre at Sabra and Shatila as reasons for his hatred of the west. Those are very real grievances. . They were just as bad as the events of September 11th – perhaps worse. Yet the west openly supports the man who was found responsible.
Let the public see both sides, and then decide. For example, whenever we see footage of “Ground Zero” why not also show footage of dead and dying civilians at Tripoli and Sabra and Shatilla and Baghdad and so on. Contrary to what Mr Orwell wrote, ignorance is NOT strength (and war is NOT peace).
Find out who the terrorists are. This is not as easy as it sounds. After any major incident we quickly form opinions and form a lynch mob to round up who is “obviously” guilty. But secret courts and military courts have a very bad record for getting the wrong person. Quick-fix justice has a habit of becoming uncertain as the years go by. So until we see ALL the evidence, examined by both sides, in an open court, we cannot jump to conclusions.
Do not be naive. Remember that “hitting them hard” seldom works (see Israel versus Palestine for example). Also, picking up a few Taliban gunmen will not prevent someone in America from joining a flying school. Destroying a so-called “training camp” won’t make much difference either. Terrorists can get all the motivation they need by living in families that have lost loved ones. They can get all the training they need in any army in the world (see the example of Timothy McVeigh).
Start measuring the success of our current methods. Despite all the efforts to hunt down OBL, we still do not have him. Despite all the money on “intelligence,” the consensus is that the west is embarrassingly, woefully bad at infiltrating Arab gangs. Despite all the stories about evidence being gathered, most of it remains secret and almost nothing is available for close scrutiny. Past experience (e.g. in Lockerbie and elsewhere) suggests that close scrutiny will make most of the “evidence” seem much less impressive.
Learn from history. The fact is that most terrorists are never caught, but then neither do they bring down whole nations (see below). They can only become a major threat – and susceptible to capture – when they become more visible. We may get terribly excited about terrorists killing ten or a hundred, but like most of the people (politicians mainly?) who contribute to 24 thousand deaths from hunger each day , most of them will not be brought to justice whether we bomb their countries or not.
Stop scare-mongering – we cannot think clearly when we panic. For example, it is theoretically possible for a few terrorists to do colossal damage, but Murphy’s law means they generally fail (see the discussion of biological threats for example).
Learn to balance risks. While we may all focus on evil Arabs, there is greater danger from more conventional dangers, such as the over-reaction to terrorism that caused World War I (3), or breeding the next generation of disenfranchised Palestinians.
Install basic airline security measures to ensure that September 11th is less likely to happen again. Simple measures could have prevented the tragedy, so we do not need to over-react.
×טח
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/
for americans, put any definition for the terrorism, then apply it on your selves, the result will be as following:
AMERICANS ARE THE MOST TERRORIST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.
Use your mind
http://www.ety.com/HRP/pol/wtc_GenGul.htm
Ben,
I do not know how much it takes for you to understand this but i go to a CATHOLIC SCHOOL!!!!! And you must have no life to sit there and correct my spelling and any other problems. I am sorry I have a job and do not have time to talk everyday!
Eric M.
In Post # 929 Eric Wrote
“Ben,
I do not know how much it takes for you to understand this but i go to a CATHOLIC SCHOOL!!!!! And you must have no life to sit there and correct my spelling and any other problems. I am sorry I have a job and do not have time to talk everyday!
Eric M. ”
Ben’s response:
Eric,
I realize that you’re in Catholic school. But my point is that if Catholic schools are supposed to be better than public schools. And if your Catholic school does such a *miserable* job of educating you, shouldn’t I be praying for the students in public school? Ok? You got it now?
If you don’t like the comments on your misspelling, I suggest you break out a dictionary. As I’ve said, you claim to be well educated, but your lousy spelling, lack of grammar, and inability to construct a single cogent (look it up) argument, say otherwise.
As for my so called life, well, I’ll say this. I make more than you. I own my house. I own my car.
I’m not in debt. I’m healthy. I’m grateful for what I’ve got.
And I’m smart enough not to support the war on Iraq.
Now how much of that can you say?
– Ben
I think the war and the president are the two most bogus things to fall on the country since Nixon. But at least there’s a good movie about Nixon. Bush is evil, a facist dictator making you think that the war is just, but is actually just another mistake he’s afraid to admit.
This picture accurately depicts the pride of an evil shrub of a person. What i have to say to you all is get familiar with your rights because knowing Bush he’ll try and eat them all up.
This weblog is a way that us Americans (most of the posts are by Americans, I think) can express our opinions freely. I completely
agree with #52. A great problem with the current administration is there tendency to “flip-flop.” We began by labeling this war
“Operation Iraqi Freedom,” yet Bush has forgotten that freedom includes freedom of the press. Why is it that every source of media
that Bush and his administration disagrees with is automatically false? Now, I wouldn’t really care if all they did was criticize it. But,
they have gone as far as actually shutting down many newspaper and journals run in Iraq. Have you heard of the new Al-Iraqiya news
network, funded by our tax dollars? Well, the AP reported that it is “a Pentagon-funded TV station with an optimistic, pro-American slant” (http://www.msnbc.com/news/997582.asp?0cv=CB10&cp1=1). You can read this article at the Washington Post site,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8313-2004Jan11?language=printer that speaks more about American
corporations running Iraqi media. It may not be so bad right now, since, as one post put it, that some Iraqis have been around
long enough to realize what the Americans are really up to, and they will not buy it. However, the next generation and so on, will
be brainwashed, and it is quite saddening. I know I wouldn’t feel comfortable having the Iraqi government run my local news
station. This is immoral, unjust, and will only suffocate what freedoms people have today. We have seen in our own country
how the the media companies have almost completely merged into one giant corporation. The Internet is the only real free
form of expression that people, who are not just in it for the money, have left.
I am an Iranian-American. I was born here, and I have never been to Iran. Although I am aware of what limited rights
women have, the freedoms that they lack, etc, it is not right for our country to force ideals on them, especially at the cost of
so many civilians and troops. It is definitely not worth the pain and suffering. I am not just saying this because I am Iranian, and
I am afraid the US will attack my country. Oh no, Iran is not at all like Iraq, and they will fight a thousand times harder than
the insurgents and supposed-terrorists in Iraq. What Bush does not realize is that this war will create more terrorists than it
started out with. Terrorism is an act of revenge, people don’t just go blowing themselves up for nothing. Would you do it?
Hell no. You must be either very mentally sick (which I don’t think that that many people in this world have actual mental illnesses that drive them to be suicide bombers, and it would be odd that they are mostly in the Middle East) or very devoted
to your cause. I find the latter more probable. The media has made terrorists out to be ignorant violence-mongering animals. Most of them are just like you and me, except they’ve lost they’re entire families from bombings and murders at the cost of the US or one of our allies. Hell, if someone killed my entire family, I may contemplate taking out the people who did it at any cost, wouldn’t you? I mean, come on here, some of you have forgotten that the Iraqis are humans, not savage animals that need to be domesticated. A lot also make the mistake of interchangably using the word “Muslims” and any other Middle Eastern persons. I actually have family in Iran who are Christians and celebrate Christmas like I do. There are plenty of Jewish, Buddist, and Catholic Iranians as well; we just don’t here about them because they don’t make the case for going to war with their country.
I would hate to see a man worse than Saddam become leader of Iraq. I despise Saddam. I am actually Kurdish-Iranian, yeah, the ones who were gassed by Saddam. My mother is Kurdish, she is from Sanandaj, and my father is from Tehran. And even though I have distant relative who lost their lives to the chemicals Saddam used, my family is educated enough to know that America provided those weapons. Had Rumsfeld cared so much back then, fifteen years ago, maybe I could have still been able to spend some time with my great uncle or second cousin of my aunt. The US even supported the brutally assasination of Mohammad Mosadekh, the man who actually brought a democracy to Iran. They wiped him out and replaced him with a dictatorship that they had conflicts with, leading to the hostage crisis, and now we’re in the Axis of Evil.
And though I mentioned about how Bush and his administration has “flip-flopped” this is not to say that I support Kerry either. He is also a hypocrite, just like Bush. Kerry became a war criminal back in Vietnam, and now Bush, though he was able to evade Vietnam, has become notorious in this current war. I would have to commend Kerry for at least serving his country as he did, and he at least has seen the horrors of war to think more thoroughly before sending so many troops to die for what turned out to be false pretenses. Although, at the moment, I see little difference between the two candidates, and I would
have voted for John Edwards or even Dean, had they survived. In fact, I am independent, and would have even been happy to see McCain run. Recently, he was one of the few Republicans frustrated with the prison scandal, and I admire his speaking out on that issue. He also once fought against funds for a new military aircraft, claiming that the money should help support the approximately 12,000 families of enlisted troops, who were on food stamps.
I could have this post short, since most of my ideas are probably a repititon of what has already been said many times.
But once I began writing I could not stop the flow of thoughts. And, I know, if any of you actually read it through, it will sound a bit disorganized or incoherent, so mind my sloppiness; I actually write great essays when I dedicate more time to them. The last thing I would like to mention, before responding to specific posts, is the only good thing that has resulted from the Bush administration’s relentless tactics: patriotism. Although the country may seem divided into the ‘liberals’ and ‘conservatives,’ the ‘democrats’ and ‘republicans’ and etc, everyone (regardless of how you choose to label them) has become passionate about their ideas and opinions. You may think it’s unpatriotic if someone doesn’t share your views, but in fact, the entire country is patrioticly exercising their freedom of opinion, in hopes that someone in the administration will listen and lead us in that direction. The problem is that no one is listening, and this war has not hit home strong enough to cause the next American Revolution.
America has already left a war unfinished in Afghanistan. Bush declared the end of major combat in Iraq some time ago. Although most deaths of our soldiers have happened after the fact. Now, Bush has made threats to Syria and Iran. If he is not careful, this could be catastrophic and our country could be toppled like the U.S.S.R. that lost power because of the same reason. We cannot be every where at once, we have to focus our effort in one location at a time, even if a war is the way to do it, let’s finish one country at a time. The best place to start focusing, in my opinion, is at home; 87 bil. dollars could go a long ways in numerous domestic causes, rather than installing an Iraqi “democracy.”
A thing about the recent prison scandal, that is scary – other than the terrifying acts themselves – is the minute punishment that will be given to Sivvits (I hope I have spelled that correctly). I remeber that several months ago, a soldier was court-martialed for breaking down in the line of duty and difficulties coping with the horrors of war. They almost went as far as killing the poor guy for his humaneness. I remember they labeled it an Act of Cowardice. I am sure you remember it too. But now, this guy who has committed numerous human right violations, and could be responsible for the deaths of some prisoners, gets to make a deal and only serve a year, with only lower pay and a bad track record when he returns. This is proof of how the corporately-owned media manipulates news only for the sake of money and entertainment. If it wasn’t so, then why do so many Americans believe Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks? We have become so accustomed to the quick CNN briefings that we no longer step back and take a look at the big picture. Why is it that we have forgotten about Osama? I would be happy to see him locked up like Saddam. But no, Bush said “I don’t care where he is,” only a short while ago, and some Americans have probably forgotten that too. It is a shame, that each week a new terrorist name is drilled into our minds; who doesn’t know Al-Zarkawi by now? It is so pathetic that little kids will probably start learning the names of the world’s most notorious terrorists before they learn the names of our presidents. It was only last night that a question popped up on SuperMillionaire that asked the player to identify which of the three cities was in Afghanistan, and not in Iraq. What’s even more surprising is that my eleven year old brother sitting next to me knew the answer! They’ll start learning about the Iraqi Revolution before they do about the American Revolution. Just Sad. Which one is more important? We need to straighten out our priorities. Why is it that Afghanistan is only mentioned on the news when a soldier dies there, and not because we have made any progress? Face it, Afghanistan was only a stepping stone for moving troops into what would be the Iraq War. Heck, many have said that the condition there is now worse off than it was before, and that the Taliban have reorganized worse than ever. And oh yeah, like I said earlier, the war in Iraq will lead to a party taking over that will be almost ten times worse than the Baath party was made out to be. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and apparently Bush didn’t learn this one, just like the saying that he thought was in Tennessee, which is also in Texas. In otherwords, you can’t fight terrorism by terrorizing the terrorists, and the conditions of this war have only churned more hate for the US. I feel less safe than before. Not that I have to be worried about dying on a daily basis, in my hometown of Morrisville, North Carolina, but I don’t feel safer than before the war. I mean, there have definitely been more terrorist attacks after 9/11. And these attacks should be remembered when civilians from other countries die as well. The Iraqis women and children have suffered more than several 9/11s combined. Before 9/11 all that stands out is American terrorism, such as the Atlanta bomb at the Olympics, the abortion clinic bombings, the Oklahoma City one, the Unibomber, and of course the old WTC, which was by an Arab. Overall, America would have been a lot safer had we focused that attention to working on a new Palestinian territory, and peace plans for that region.
Lastly, my thoughts and prayers go out to all the families that have not only lost a loved one, but also to those still with family member fighting over there. Regardless of my political standpoint, I do not dismiss the fact that they died for this country, and I respect their bravery and willingness to do so. Fort Bragg is actually only a few hours away from my home, and many of our NC troops are part of the Special Forces and Green Berets sent out to Afghanistan and Iraq. I wish the the best for their safe return home. And those who may not make it home physically, you will always be in our hearts.
Now for specific comments:
#62, Sgt. Ashby: Very well said.
#63, John: You say that everyone has “a right to say whatever [they] want to say.” However, I do not understand when you comment that it would mean what they say is automatically considered “falsehoods, half-truths or downright lies.” I believe you are entitled to your opinion also. However, I will not be as quick to judge your post as being a bunch of lies, because I would have to read it and further read articles about what you say before arriving at such a conclusion. I reviewed your disagreement with many of the postings, and I have to say, that they are not based much on fact, but rather only label the person without much valid explanation. I am not questioning your opinions, but only the way that you suggest how others, except yourself, are so wrong. Mostly you have tried what I would refer to as ‘bashing’ someone by the name of S.W. Here are some excerpts from your comments (my comments are indicated with a ‘>’):
“My friend S. W. again is simply wrongheaded!” > Can you support this? Just because he holds a different opinion than yours?
> I was quite disturbed by your following response to Mr. Brodey of post #26, you said:
Mr. Brodey, your wrong.
The troops do have a choice, not one of them were retarded when they signed up for the military. THEY MADE THEIR CHOICE AND KNEW THAT POSSIBLY THEY MAY HAVE TO GO AND FIGHT AND POSSIBLY DIE!
> Retarded? Now is that the sort of terminology you use to show respect? As a matter of fact, I would be surprised if you personally knew any of those fighting over seas or those who have fallen; had you known one you would respect that many have different reasons; of the two that I know, one did join for financial reasons, that’s fifty percent – and even if they’re is a smaller percentage nationwide, on average, that’s still some, and they’re NOT RETARDED
> I was surprised at your comment for the RG, the Brit
“#48. RG, the ?Brit
We are thankful for your opinion, but we don?t live in Great Britain, we overthrew your tyranny, many years ago.
We are happy being Americans now and I hope you are happy being ?Brits?
So??let?s keep it that way!
You take care of over there??..and we will take care of over here.
Just remember, you would be speaking German, if it hadn?t been for my grandfathers and uncles.”
> Again, your lack of respect baffles me, simply because GB was the only country for a while that supported our war decision. You told someone else (Dan) that they can’t speak for the dead, but you seem to be speaking for the those who fought the revolution in 1776, and I don’t think it’s physically possible for you to be that old. Quite frankly, GB has helped us more in Iraq, which is the issue here (not the American Revolution), than any other country in the world. Even if you don’t realize that without Britain we wouldn’t even be here, unless you are Native American by heritage; Have some RESPECT for their current assistance.
“Are those who disagree with the war unpatriotic?
No.”
> But they are liars, and speak only falsehoods, right? Being unpatriotic or being a liar…hmmm…well, you’re not giving us much of a choice, so we might as well settle for liar? I don’t think so. Maybe you should take some care in addressing your responses with a little more respect and care rather than signing your name as “Respectfully, John” at the bottom.
> I would be more than happy to see your documented proof of why you think these people are liars. Seriously, feel free to email me. No hard feelings here, I would like to debate with you, and I am not trying to force my opinions; I am independent of Democrats and Republicans, so I am open to new evidence and ideas. I will do the same.
#23 Great post. I am sure there are more military service men and women like yourself who feel the same; who did not sign up to serve presidents like this. It is sad that so many had to die to fight for a cause they may not have even believed in. Not only were there lives wasted but there sacrifice has been engrossingly ignored by the one who sent them there. You’re absolutely right.
I just want to say that MR-George.War.Bush and Mr Donald Warfield and the hole bunch of stupids in pentagon are wasting the money of taxpayers and the lives of young officers on duty (These young men&women go in the war zone and come back in body bags who is responsible for this there is just drap in flag and 21 gun salute if there sons & daughters go there and killed they will know the pain i think america first take care of itself and then do anything
WHEN I FIRST READ THE HEADING ABOUT OUR SERVICE MEMBER I WAS VERY TOUCHED AND WANTED TO SEE IT ALL. HOWEVER IT TRULY SPOILED THE MOMENT WHEN AS I SCROLLED DOWN AND SAW ‘HIS’ FACE AND WONDERED HOW MANY MORE ARE GOING TO BE ADDED TO THE FACE????? WHY NOT THE AMERICAN FLAG OR OUR NATIONAL BIRD????
I didn’t read all the posts so perhaps this has been mentioned but the Japanese and the Germans were trying to take over the world and were doing a damn good job of it.
I won’t say I know Saddam wasn’t trying to take over the world, but if he was, he was certainly failing big time. Unlike the Germans and the Japs Saddam had no where close to a majority of the people supporting him…maybe 10%. He had power and he abused it. Saddam makes W’s loss in the popular vote in 2000 look like a landslide in his favor. Saddam had no allies outside of Iraq (and very little there) – not even allies in the Arab world. Basically, Saddam was going to run Iraq into the ground and not really hurt anybody else in the process (except for his feeble attempt years ago at invading Kuwait, when Saddam got his ass kicked). So, Saddam was a crazy lunitic (or either just concious man that ruled with an iron fist).
Sounds like I’m making a case for deposing Saddam, and about 99% of the world would agree that Saddam needed not to be in charge, BUT – ok, this is the important part – BUT, there are good reasons for not having gone to Iraq. The oil situation and Jr.’s connection with the last Saddam war are very intriguing conspiracies, but the UN’s stance, the abuse of prisoners, Bush’s lie about WMD and the lack of ties with al-Queda are all NOT conspiracy theories. Bush and his cabinent made decisions based on hunches and faulty intelligence. The Iraq war was like a trick play in football or some other sport. If you pull it off, you look like a genius, if you fail you look like an idiot. There is no middle ground. There is no playing it safe. However, war is not like football. There is not a next week when a new game is played. There are no playoffs coming up to redeem ourselves in. Bush screwed up, end of story. It doesn’t make him evil, just makes him look like a brash cowboy — and the White House is no place for brash cowboys. However, if the conspiracy theories are true, I think that would make him evil.
War, Iraq (and the entire middle east), Money and Energy are all issues that demand more attention than this simple post, but assuming that all people who do not support war in Iraq would not support other wars is misguided and ignorant.
Ben,
Well I can accually say quite a lot still. I am not going to be put down by you. If it makes you feel good to be arguing with a 16 year old “kid” then go right ahead. I am the one that will be voting in a few years. “Kids” our age are the new generation. Well you are sitting on your deathbed pissing your pants because you are to old to stand up, we will be out voting and fighting our wars. I know that the US is getting in to something that we should not get into. I will be the one out there fighting for our country. I am not going to spend time fighting with some old guy that speaks out of his butt. I do not have to agree with you nor am i going to agree with you. You are some wallydrag (sorry that may be to big of a word for you).
The final thing is that Bush is making a mistake by starting this war. It needed to be done but we did not plan so well. I am still willing though to join the USMC and fight and possibly die for this country.
I am out of here I am tired of your trash.
~Semper Fidelis
Eric
let me say something else after having glanced at some of the other posts. I am decidedly against war in most cases, especially starting them like we obviously did in Iraq.
HOWEVER, this does not mean I am against the military or soldiers. I have seven friends in the armed forces that I can think of off the top of my head. 3 are girls and 4 are guys…and I’ve had my eye on dating all three of those girls at one point or another in my life and while it is not a serious thought at the moment, would probably date any of those three at the drop of the hat.
We need a standing army. If we didn’t have one we would get our ass kicked by someone else who did. Iraq was not going to be the ass-kicker though, that much is for certain and even if they were, beating up the bullies before you ever get bullied makes you the bully. Think about it.
I’d like to say more, but I have things to do.
ok, really this is the last one: two quick things.
1) I think censoring the hate speech sends the wrong message. Leave it and let people respond to it, as happened. If people start posting plans on how to commit hate crimes then fine take it off. As long as it is just hate SPEECH and not hate ACTION then the censorship is no better than censorship of any other ideological material. This is why conservatives (or at least conservative racists) get so pissed at liberals bitching and moaning about censorship. Somewhere a line does have to be drawn, and I already made note of that, but I think it has been drawn too soon here.
hmm, I actually forgot what #2 was, must not have been too important. Ok, back to work…
I would like to comment on the person who wrote about the 5,000 civilians that died in Halabja in 1988… You say the mosaic should be of Sadaam, but those chemical weapons were US weapons that we gave to him in the 80s to fight Iran, and when there was an uprising in none-other-than Halabja, the US supported the gassing of these people with chemical weapons… but now, 16 years later, when it serves to strengthen certain people’s agendas, then it becomes a terrible thing, blah blah blah….
Doug your #936,
I wholeheartedly agree with you about Iraq and Bush. But I want to add something to what you described Bush as,
///It doesn’t make him evil, just makes him look like a brash cowboy ///
I agree that if “conspiracy theories” aren’t proven, we can’t assume Bush to be evil (per say) but conspiracy theories aside, I don’t think he is a brash cowboy either…. Bush ain’t no cowboy I know, the mere fact you call him a cowboy demeans the whole culture of actual “cowboys” who are rugged, brave and valiant, none of which Bush possess. By calling Bush the “cowboy” it cheapens the “cowboy” name. To me he’s purely and simply “incompetent”, and I’m not even talking about the Iraq situation. He just doesn’t fit to be the leader of the free world. That alone tells us we cannot allow him to sit in office any longer.
Anyone but Bush.
Do western people love killing?
When discussing these things with supporters of the war, I observed that we (most Americans, British, etc.) “love killing.” This phrase brought me more trouble than any other. How dare I say something so awful! Naturally, supporters of war like to see themselves as gentle, peace-loving people.
I did not defend the “we love killing” claim at length, because the topic just offends people. But for the record, here is the evidence that we love killing.
“Love,” according to Webster’s dictionary, refers to either love of a person or a thing. When referring to a person, it generally means romantic love. When referring to a thing, it generally means enthusiasm.
“War” is a state of armed conflict. In the “war on terrorism,” as in most wars, this armed conflict inevitably involves killing. Indeed, killing is what sets war apart from other forms of diplomacy.
War is more popular than other options. Since September 11th, George Bush has had extremely high approval ratings for his decision to go to war. The figures are typically over 80%, or even over 90%. This approval did not exist before the war was “declared.” It must therefore be approval of the decision to go to war, and not approval of the man.
Therefore, we have an enthusiasm for war.
Enthusiasm for war or love of killing? They mean the same thing.
If we were peace loving, if we wanted an alternative to war, wouldn’t we be urgently looking for alternatives? Instead, when someone suggests an alternative to war, they are called unpatriotic, or their ideas are immediately dismissed as impossible. What is an outside observer supposed to conclude?
Why not ask the Japanese? They are sufficiently detached to take an educated outside view. This is how the BBC reported on a recent visit by U.S. President Bush:
“Times have changed. The arrival of President Bush arouses little excitement. Indifference, though, is laced with concern and even contempt at what is seen as Bush’s ‘cowboy diplomacy’. The young mother picking up her child from kindergarten was surprised to be asked for her views on international diplomacy. But pressed for a comment, she said, ‘I think Bush likes war’. It is a view shared by many…(4)
We say (and believe) that we hate killing. People often hold apparently opposing views. For example, the American founding fathers held opposing views about freedom. They wrote that “all men are created equal” but saw nothing wrong in keeping slaves. Beliefs like the “need” for slavery – and the “need” for war – are hard to shake. It can take several generations to “unlearn” our enthusiasm for war.
All I have to ask is this, “What do we do if Bush wins this election?” I honestly don’t think I live with another 4 years of this…I would like to hear other people’s thoughts on this. Also, do you think that we can have an honest election since the last one was rigged anyhow????? God, I want Kerry to win, but I am fearful that this insidious and criminal administration may have us all duped. Doesn’t Halliburton own many of the polling machines or atleast Halliburton’s subcompanies?? Talk amongst yourselves….would love insight on how YOU will handle it, if “he”
should literally STEAL this election, AGAIN!
Simple gumbogrrl and I’ll just say it in one phrase.
Americans need to smarten up.
Quite frankly, I think I would be just as upset if he won, as I would if he lost but was not tried for war crimes by the following president. Did you hear the recent news? Forty innocent civilians killed while celebrating at a wedding. Women and children were amongst the dead. I was horrified by the images on the television. Horrified. It brings tears to your eyes to see children being buried. What’s more, Bush has defended this and called them an attempt at ridding of terrorists. To my absolute disgust, some actually believe that this ‘wedding’ was a disguise to cover-up a terrorist operation; only because the US had similarly killed civilians in a wedding celebration in Afghanistan, in 2001. Yeah sure. The other images on the news were of the massacre of Palestinian women and children who were peacefully demonstrating in the Gaza Strip. Oh my God. The tanks opened fire on unarmed civilians who were fleeing from the scene. The people were dragging numerous bodies and even body parts to save their loved ones. A majority of the killed and injured were children. Following the video footage, the report claimed that the UN had previously told Isreal to discontinue their attacks on the Palestinians, and guess what? The only country abstaining from the UN vote was the United States. Bush refused to condemn the actions. At least Powell made a brief comment regarding the wrongdoing. Obviously, Powell realizes that he does not want to be tried for war crimes, if it ever comes down to that. It is quite interesting to see the recent conflicting statements Powell has made to the UN, without the consent of the president.
So, to answer your open-ended question, yes, it would be terrible to live with this brutal leader for another four years. Realistically however, I personally only feel emotionally saddened by these tragedies. I am not in any danger of losing any property or my life to Bush’s actions. As I have mentioned in my earlier post, #933 above, I am an Iranian; but, I am not afraid of any US involvement. The US does not stand a chance in Iran. I have come to the conclusion that the current administration knows this and only chooses to bully countries that are actually very weak. Otherwise, we would be attacking countries such as Saudi Arabia, North Korea, and Israel. In other ways, I was not personally affected by the economic recession. In fact, I am an active trader in small cap stocks, and I gained financially since before the 9/11 attacks. Therefore, I would continue to live as I am living without having to have any reason for complaint. Life is good here, so why care if people are dying?
That is the sick mentality of Bush, which his supporters have also succumbed too. Sadly, most of his supporters don’t live the good life, like I believe I am living. He could do a lot more with the money spent on Iraq to improve our own country. Yet, you have to realize that this is 2004. The founding fathers of this country are dead and gone. Clinton was the best president we have seen in years, and even he put sanctions on Iraq that resulted in the deaths of thousands of women and children. Kerry voted for this war too. Who knows, a lot of these same things may have happened. I’m not sure he’s a lot different.
In conclusion, the ultimate answer is that there are good and bad people in this world. Unless you have immense power or trillions of dollars, your voice won’t do much to stop them. Though I hope another four years of Bush will lead to a revolution of some sort, I think that’s only a dream that few of us have, and I won’t commit to it knowing it’s going nowhere. We can’t revolt if half of the country isn’t with us; that would be a civil war, and we need none of that. The world is a sad place. The Palestinians have been fighting with the Israelis for 50 years. There have been a lot of president since then and none have done anything to help. Innocent people are still dying on a daily basis. Aside from wars, think of the thousands that die from disease and other causes. Do the best you can to help those around you; volunteer in your community, whatever. Make a difference in someone’s life. Life is short. Don’t worry and stress about things you or the next twenty generations may never change. This is something that Nader does not understand. I am not voting for anyone this November. Like you mentioned, I agree, I think there is a big plan under way to secretly deny votes of millions. Especially since these companies that support electronic voting have been recently pushing so much to change the country’s voting system, it is difficult not to be suspicious of their possible hidden agenda. Yeah, they will make money from selling their machines to the government. But Lord knows how much more they would make if they could rig the entire election. I personally will not care; not because of my aforementioned reasons, but because he has done so many illegal, criminal things before, since, and during his incumbancy that I find it hard to believe that anyone has kept count. He is just a crook, period.
Just think about it. Even if we did attack the real problem and went after Israel, the world Jewish population would destroy us. They control almost our entire economy. Should we choose to get rid of them or the Saudis, which we have very close ties with as well, then we would be getting rid of ourselves. So, if it makes you feel better, move to another country, change your citizenship just so you won’t feel guilty. Personally, I have considered Canada and European countries, but it is really not worth it. The only regret I may have is if they draft me for the continuation of this ongoing war on terror. Then I’ll be worried. Anyhow, evil will always exist. Typical of movies and everywhere, there is always the good vs. bad. History repeats. You can never get rid of either. As a practical solution, I hope your life goes well, and that you are successful at whatever you do. For the poor, innocent youths and women being murdered, all you can do is pray. Hopefully God is listening, because God (regardless of what shape or form you preach him/her/what to be) is the ONLY one who can save the world.
Sorry my answer to post #943 is not as short as yours, JOSEPH, but I am somewhat in agreeance with what you say. I’m just not sure if it would matter either way.
Quite frankly, I think I would be just as upset if he won, as I would if he lost but was not tried for war crimes by the following president. Did you hear the recent news? Forty innocent civilians killed while celebrating at a wedding. Women and children were amongst the dead. I was horrified by the images on the television. Horrified. It brings tears to your eyes to see children being buried. What’s more, Bush has defended this and called them an attempt at ridding of terrorists. To my absolute disgust, some actually believe that this ‘wedding’ was a disguise to cover-up a terrorist operation; only because the US had similarly killed civilians in a wedding celebration in Afghanistan, in 2001. Yeah sure. The other images on the news were of the massacre of Palestinian women and children who were peacefully demonstrating in the Gaza Strip. Oh my God. The tanks opened fire on unarmed civilians who were fleeing from the scene. The people were dragging numerous bodies and even body parts to save their loved ones. A majority of the killed and injured were children. Following the video footage, the report claimed that the UN had previously told Isreal to discontinue their attacks on the Palestinians, and guess what? The only country abstaining from the UN vote was the United States. Bush refused to condemn the actions. At least Powell made a brief comment regarding the wrongdoing. Obviously, Powell realizes that he does not want to be tried for war crimes, if it ever comes down to that. It is quite interesting to see the recent conflicting statements Powell has made to the UN, without the consent of the president.
So, to answer your open-ended question, yes, it would be terrible to live with this brutal leader for another four years. Realistically however, I personally only feel emotionally saddened by these tragedies. I am not in any danger of losing any property or my life to Bush’s actions. As I have mentioned in my earlier post, #933 above, I am an Iranian; but, I am not afraid of any US involvement. The US does not stand a chance in Iran. I have come to the conclusion that the current administration knows this and only chooses to bully countries that are actually very weak. Otherwise, we would be attacking countries such as Saudi Arabia, North Korea, and Israel. In other ways, I was not personally affected by the economic recession. In fact, I am an active trader in small cap stocks, and I gained financially since before the 9/11 attacks. Therefore, I would continue to live as I am living without having to have any reason for complaint. Life is good here, so why care if people are dying?
That is the sick mentality of Bush, which his supporters have also succumbed too. Sadly, most of his supporters don’t live the good life, like I believe I am living. He could do a lot more with the money spent on Iraq to improve our own country. Yet, you have to realize that this is 2004. The founding fathers of this country are dead and gone. Clinton was the best president we have seen in years, and even he put sanctions on Iraq that resulted in the deaths of thousands of women and children. Kerry voted for this war too. Who knows, a lot of these same things may have happened. I’m not sure he’s a lot different.
In conclusion, the ultimate answer is that there are good and bad people in this world. Unless you have immense power or trillions of dollars, your voice won’t do much to stop them. Though I hope another four years of Bush will lead to a revolution of some sort, I think that’s only a dream that few of us have, and I won’t commit to it knowing it’s going nowhere. We can’t revolt if half of the country isn’t with us; that would be a civil war, and we need none of that. The world is a sad place. The Palestinians have been fighting with the Israelis for 50 years. There have been a lot of president since then and none have done anything to help. Innocent people are still dying on a daily basis. Aside from wars, think of the thousands that die from disease and other causes. Do the best you can to help those around you; volunteer in your community, whatever. Make a difference in someone’s life. Life is short. Don’t worry and stress about things you or the next twenty generations may never change. This is something that Nader does not understand. I am not voting for anyone this November. Like you mentioned, I agree, I think there is a big plan under way to secretly deny votes of millions. Especially since these companies that support electronic voting have been recently pushing so much to change the country’s voting system, it is difficult not to be suspicious of their possible hidden agenda. Yeah, they will make money from selling their machines to the government. But Lord knows how much more they would make if they could rig the entire election. I personally will not care; not because of my aforementioned reasons, but because he has done so many illegal, criminal things before, since, and during his incumbancy that I find it hard to believe that anyone has kept count. He is just a crook, period.
Just think about it. Even if we did attack the real problem and went after Israel, the world Jewish population would destroy us. They control almost our entire economy. Should we choose to get rid of them or the Saudis, which we have very close ties with as well, then we would be getting rid of ourselves. So, if it makes you feel better, move to another country, change your citizenship just so you won’t feel guilty. Personally, I have considered Canada and European countries, but it is really not worth it. The only regret I may have is if they draft me for the continuation of this ongoing war on terror. Then I’ll be worried. Anyhow, evil will always exist. Typical of movies and everywhere, there is always the good vs. bad. History repeats. You can never get rid of either. As a practical solution, I hope your life goes well, and that you are successful at whatever you do. For the poor, innocent youths and women being murdered, all you can do is pray. Hopefully God is listening, because God (regardless of what shape or form you preach him/her/what to be) is the ONLY one who can save the world.
I would like add a quick addition to my message. [sorry, I know you’re thinking, ‘doesn’t this guy have a life besides posting ridiculously long messages?’ – my response to that is that I have a life, and I will try to use whatever form of expression to educate the people around me. I cannot force my opinions on anyone or change the crisis in the Middle East, but hopefully if someone learns a little from me, another person may learn a little from him or her, and it will continue; and hopefully, just hopefully, it may help in some way. it’s the least i can do; devote 30 min. a day to posting messages online. no big waste of time.]
Anyway, I wanted to clarify that by claiming that Jews would destroy us or that we should get the Saudis, I am referring to their governments. I am in no way brash towards the people of the countries mentioned in my post, unless I know them personally. I have a few Jewish friends, and like I mentioned in my post #933, there are many Iranian Jews as well. I had to make this point clear since I am sure someone would quickly jump to the conclusion that I am an unpatriotic n**i or something of the sort. I do not personally know any Saudi Americans, but I am sure they are good people too, except for the notorious Osama and the 9/11 hijackers. Today, also on the news, it was reported that many Israelis organized a large demonstration against their government’s actions of killing the Palestinians. It is the governments that have used people and soldiers as tools for their own criminal activity. Though I support the American troops, I find it a little difficult to support the Israeli troops for their actions. But I’m not Israeli, so I don’t need to care much about that anyway.
Hope you got my point. Well, let me drive it in a little deeper. I think every American should get to know a Muslim. Too many make the mistake of labeling Islam for the recent crisis. Maybe if everyone got to know at least someone from the Middle Eastern region, they would be more understanding of the real root of the hatred for America.
One very last thing I wanted to say is that, Pier, I have enjoyed reading your posts. Especially that last one about the “love of killing” (#942). Solutions don’t arrive overnight, it takes time, and that post was very well said.
Thanks Hooman, i hope all Americans have a clear and logic mind like you.
Keep trying to teach others, you and me are able to make the world better.
No wonder we are hated
Our government is doing the dirtiest works in the world, and then we ask why are we hated?
– We are killing civilians in name of fighting the terrorism, No wonder we are hated.
– We are supporting an evil organization called Israel to kill Palestinians who are the original owners of the land, No wonder we are hated
– We made our selves the world police man, and started to punish each weak poor country, to absorb their resources, No wonder we are hated.
– We are to put the people in Guantinamo jail, without judgment or at least an indictment, No wonder we are hated.
– We made money and economic our first targets, regardless of is it our right to take or not, middle east oil for example, No wonder we are hated.
What is remaining to be not hated.
ARE YOU SERIOUS—JUST BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT IS NOT FLIP FLOPPING (LIKE KERRI) AND DOESN’T CHANGE HIS MIND DEPENDING ON THE POLES DOES NOT MEAN HE IS DOING THE WRONG THING. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD OF BEEN DONE WHEN CLINTON WAS IN OFFICE. EVEN CLINTON SAID THAT SADAAM HAD TO GO. SO BEFORE YOU GO POSTING SOLDIERS PICTURES WHO HAVE DIED IN THIS WAR ON BUSH’S FACE JUST REMEMBER AS A VETERAN I CAN SAY THAT EVERY ONE OF THOSE MEN AND WOMEN FOUGHT AND DIED PROUDLY FOR THIS COUNTRY AND THIS PRESIDENT–AND IF THEY WERE TO SEE THAT SOME PIMPLE FACED PUNK THAT KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT ANYTHING DISGRACING THEIR PRESIDENT AND THEIR COUNTRYMEN THEY WOULD BE TURNING OVER IN THEIR GRAVE———YOU PIECE OF SHIT
ARE YOU SERIOUS—JUST BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT IS NOT FLIP FLOPPING (LIKE KERRI) AND DOESN’T CHANGE HIS MIND DEPENDING ON THE POLES DOES NOT MEAN HE IS DOING THE WRONG THING. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD OF BEEN DONE WHEN CLINTON WAS IN OFFICE. EVEN CLINTON SAID THAT SADAAM HAD TO GO. SO BEFORE YOU GO POSTING SOLDIERS PICTURES WHO HAVE DIED IN THIS WAR ON BUSH’S FACE JUST REMEMBER AS A VETERAN I CAN SAY THAT EVERY ONE OF THOSE MEN AND WOMEN FOUGHT AND DIED PROUDLY FOR THIS COUNTRY AND THIS PRESIDENT–AND IF THEY WERE TO SEE THAT SOME PIMPLE FACED PUNK THAT KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT ANYTHING DISGRACING THEIR PRESIDENT AND THEIR COUNTRYMEN THEY WOULD BE TURNING OVER IN THEIR GRAVE———YOU PIECE OF SHIT
Jason – This recent article is about another “pimple faced punk” from a few years back….. A real disgrace to his country.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/03/politics/main615317.shtml
HI IM AN EX-U.S.M.C. MR PRESIDENT, SIR KEEP KICKING THERE ASS AND DONT LET THE REAL AMERICAN PEOPLE DOWN SIR. MY SON ADAM EDWARD QUILES IS A MARINE OVER THERE SOON SIR. GOD BLESS YOU SIR AND AMERICA
I am seriously considering Canada as a move if Bush wins. I just don’t think I can take the stress. Although, the Canadians are borderline hating us since we (the U.S.) have always treated them like red-headed step children (as the old saying goes). It won’t be long before we (Americans) won’t be welcome anywhere in the world but on our own damn soil. And, none of us will be able to live anywhere else in the world b/c the rest of the world will villify us. And, we are already more than 1/2 there! Jason, as to your statment about those soldiers dying for this country and THIS PRESIDENT…I think you are WRONG! They have may have died for this country. But, I know soldiers who villify Bush just as much as the other 1/2 of this beautiful country. But, they have a duty to fulfill. Much to their chagrin. Two of my ancestors fought in the Battle of Yorktown during the American Revolution, 4 fought in the Civil War, 2 in WWI, 1 in the Korean War. I know that none of them would ridicule me, their descendant, for proclaiming my right to voice my opinion and display CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE against the US government. That was what my ancestors fought for at the Battle of Yorktown and I will be damned if I will let the conservative right try to quiet my voice! I am sick and tired of it being “bad” to speak out against this vile and crooked President. It’s about time we got fed up with his criminal tactics and started to voice our opinions, LOUDLY AND CLEARLY!!! I will continue to let others know that it is not only OK, but our right in this country to say whatever pleases us. If you want to support the war and this President, I suggest that you find another website that caters to your thoughts and beliefs. Maybe go to Foxnews.com and post on their forums. I am sure you will find many who sympathize with your way of viewing this Un-Elected President. GET OUT AND VOLUNTEER IN YOUR COMMUNITIES TO GET THIS MAN OUT OF OFFICE! PUT BUMPERSTICKERS ON YOUR CAR! LET PEOPLE KNOW YOU ARE FED UP AND YOU WILL NOT BE VOTING FOR BUSH IN 2004!!!!!! And, pray that none of us have to move out of this country my forefathers fought so desperately for.
In post # Eric M. states:
Ben,
Well I can accually say quite a lot still. I am not going to be put down by you. If it makes you feel good to be arguing with a 16 year old “kid” then go right ahead. I am the one that will be voting in a few years. “Kids” our age are the new generation. Well you are sitting on your deathbed pissing your pants because you are to old to stand up, we will be out voting and fighting our wars. I know that the US is getting in to something that we should not get into. I will be the one out there fighting for our country. I am not going to spend time fighting with some old guy that speaks out of his butt. I do not have to agree with you nor am i going to agree with you. You are some wallydrag (sorry that may be to big of a word for you).
The final thing is that Bush is making a mistake by starting this war. It needed to be done but we did not plan so well. I am still willing though to join the USMC and fight and possibly die for this country.
I am out of here I am tired of your trash.
~Semper Fidelis
Eric
Ben’s response:
Eric, I know you can say a lot. What interests me is if you can put together a well reasoned, and analytical argument. Based on what you have said (“speaks out of his butt”, “pissing your pants”) apparently the answer is “no.”
Your comment “The final thing is that Bush is making a mistake by starting this war. It needed to be done but we did not plan so well ” is an excellent example of your inability to think logically.
If the war was a “mistake” then how is it that is “need to be done.” Do mistakes need to be done? Is that what passes for “logical reasoning” in 10th grade now?
I’ll make this suggestion again. Stay in high school long enough to learn how to *reason*. Then, if you want to go off and kill other people in cultures that you (still) know nothing about, fine. Maybe you can beat up a few Iraqis and take pictures of them.
Oh, and by the way, kudos to your mom for helping you with “wallydraggle.” I’m impressed by her fluency in archaic Scottish. It’s quite a skill.
– Ben
well if you listened I was at school. You still are having trouble listening. If you were smart what I was saying about the “mistake” is that Bush made the stupid mistake of attacking iraq at this time. We should have finished them off when Bush Senior invaded. If we did invade then, we should invade in the next few years. The timing was the mistake, not the war itself.
Eric M
Semper fidelis
Eric,
I’m sorry but your possition sounds like – “shit, too many US soldiers died! we had to kill all Iraq people earlier!”
But the idea of the war was the same – to control the region!!! YOU GAVE WEAPONS TO IRAQ!!!! Because you wanted them to fight with Iran. But when after Iran they atacked Kuweit you invaded at once.
Someone who support Bush politics – will you answer me – Why US army didn’t atack Saudy Arabia during it’s fight with terrorism???
Once upon a time, one Amirican from Texas went to London for holiday. He went sigtseeing and took a guide.
Soon he disapointed with British culture asked:
– Why everything in your country is so little, tiny… For example this building in USA would be 10 times bigger.
– Without any doubts, sir! It’s a mental hospital.
Ben’s response:
Eric, I’m reminded of an old joke about investing.
” Q: What the difference between being too early and being wrong.
A: Nothing”
Now, here’s another question. What’s the difference between invading a country before they actually threaten you and just being a fascist, aggressive, dictatorial state. The answer, of course, is “Nothing.”
Sun Tsu was a famous Chinese general and author of “The Art of War”. He is widely considered one of the greatest military minds of all time. In fact, his work is still taught in U.S. military academies even today. (I’m explaining this, because, undoubtedly, you have never heard of him.)
One of his core principles, was “know your enemy”. We don’t “know” the Iraqis. And, contrary to your assertion that we just got the “timing” wrong, not “only” did we get that wrong, but we had no “plan” to understand them.
Now, I realize this is difficult for you to grasp, given your lack of formal education. But if you would start reading books, (like “The Art of War”) between lawn gigs, it would begin to make sense. And maybe you could post something worthy of this board, instead of the “I’m PROUD to be an American” crap, that you usually post.
– Ben
In response to Eric M.’s numerous posts:
Eric,
This quote comes from George Will (another person whose work you probably don’t know):
“Little things mean a lot. That is the thesis of a wise and witty wee book, ‘Eats, Shoots & Leaves,’ just published by Lynne Truss, a British writer and broadcaster. She knows that proper punctuation, ‘the basting that holds the fabric of language in shape,’ is ‘both the sign and the cause of clear thinking.”‘
The essential phrase here is “the sign and cause of clear thinking.”
One problem with your postings is your inability to spell or punctuate. You brush it off as “simply being in a hurry.” But I argue that your mistakes are not merely casual errors, but betray your inability to clearly think about, and discuss, the issue of the war in Iraq. Clarity of thought is something that comes from years of education, and a lot of reading, something you clearly haven’t had or done.
– Ben
The same old song played over and over and over and…. again,
——————————–
Chalabi suspected of giving U.S. secrets to Iran
Saturday, May 22, 2004 Posted: 0157 GMT (0957 HKT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) — U.S. intelligence officials on Friday said Ahmed Chalabi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council with ties to senior Pentagon officials, gave intelligence secrets to Iran so closely held in the U.S. government that only “a handful” of senior officials know them.
They also said there is evidence Chalabi met with a senior Iranian intelligence official described as a “nefarious figure” who has played a direct role in activities against the United States. This information was first reported on CBS News.
Full article http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/21/iraq.chalabi/index.html
——————————–
How does the song go? When you’re valuable to the US government, they treat you like royalty but when you’re proved useless to them, they will do everything in their power to screw you royally!
Chalabi is the latest example of this.
Granted I ain’t a fan of Chalabi in the first place, he seems to be more like a crook than any legit “politican” which is all the reason why I’m puzzled at the “government” (esp Bush camp) for trusting him and listening to him in the first place. Afterall WMD fiasco is more or less HIS fault as much as Bush himself.
But now every creditbility Chalabi had has all but disappeared….. not that I care so much (in fact I feel like it had it coming to him) ….now the government is saying that he has ties with the Iranians when AFTER THE FACT…. he proved useless. The government not only won’t admit wrong (which is typical and which is one of the thing that is plaguing this country today) but they wouldn’t allow the poor o’ “informant” go easy…. ie they can’t just NOT make a big deal out of this. They have to demonize the person in order to close the final chapter of the story.
The government did that with Saddam (remember he WAS our friend at some point in time)
The government did that with Osama (altho not directly, the CIA did help finance the mujahadeen that Bin Laden was very much a part of in afghanistan to fight off the Soviets)
The government did that with Abdurahman Khadr (see http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/khadr/ for detail)
In the future, we’ll look back and compare the american-iraq conflict with the holocaust in nazi germany [if we havent all tortured each other to death by then].
Replace the Statue of Liberty with the iraq prisoner being tortured with electrodes, his arms outstretched as if welcoming death, inviting hell to overrun the earth, and giving the thumbs-up over dead americans, dead iraqis, dead british, dead saudis, dead chinese, dead spanish… the problem is we refer to ourselves by our nationality on this page…
I hope everyone agrees with me when i say peace.
Soldiers Never Die
I am a PW combat veteran who loves his county. This is a common bond shared by fellow soldiers and Americans alike. Let us not forget what a soldier signs up for as part of the job….combat. We defend the freedom of all, and unfortunitly this comes with the ultimate sacrifice. Instead of placing blame on President Bush, let’s pray for the soldiers and thier safe return. President Bush is doing the right thing, most of you have no idea or perception of what pissed off Middle Eastern radicals can do. This war was needed to snuff out Saddam Hussian and his genocide. He gassed his own people, would think twice about gassing us??
When you kiss your kids good night, think about how safe you feel, think about things in your everyday life that you take for granted. You can thank your military and the leadership of our great nation.
the italian is right. if the president of the US can decide for the rest of the world, including the life and death of people in MINE, in that case I WANT THE RIGHT TO VOTE IN THE NEXT US PRESIDENTIALS. WHAT DISTURBES ME MOST IS THE ARROGANCE OF MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE US, NAZIS WERE JUST THE SAME
In post # 964 “Anonymous” says…
“…. President Bush is doing the right thing, most of you have no idea or perception of what pissed off Middle Eastern radicals can do. This war was needed to snuff out Saddam Hussian and his genocide. He gassed his own people, would think twice about gassing us??”
Ben’s response:
This is exactly what is wrong with this country. People like “anonymous” are unaware of our history of support for Hussein and others like him. They believe whatever comes out of the President’s mouth without analyzing it critically.
Fact: We supported Saddam Hussein for many, many years.
Fact: We did NOTHING when he gassed the Kurds.
Fact: That we did NOTHING when he gassed the Kurds shows that our government (that’s Bush Sr.) did not perceive that as a threat.
Fact: Sanctions were destroying Iraq from the inside.
Fact: Saudi Arabia (via the Saudi Royal Family) was actively supporting bin Laden before and after 9/11.
Fact: More than half of the terrorists who destroyed the World Trade Center were Saudi nationals.
Fact: Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were two of only three countries that recognized the Taliban government (supporters of al-Qaed) in Afghanistan.
Fact: al-Qaeda continues to draw support from, and operate inside Pakistan even to this day.
President Bush did exactly the WRONG thing. Sanctions were destroying Iraq from the inside. Sanctions were a LOT cheaper than the war has been. Hussein posed no “clear and present danger” to us when we invaded Iraq. We’ve lost 801 soldiers since this fiasco began. We’ve created even more “pissed off Middle Eastern radicals” since beginning this war. We’ve ignored the countries that recognized and supported al-Qaeda, namely Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
We should have imposed sanctions on Saudi Arabia and Pakistan both. But Bush has a long history of friendship with the Saudi royal family, and isn’t going to endanger that (profitable) relationship even when the Saudis threaten U.S. interests.
– Ben
“When you kiss your kids good night, think about how safe you feel, think about things in your everyday life that you take for granted. You can thank your military and the leadership of our great nation.”
WELL, LET ME TELL YA, JUST THANKS TO YOUR MILITARY, THE WHOLE WORLD, AND ESPECIALLY YOU STUPID COUNTRY, IS LESS SAFE THAN EVER
///I am a PW combat veteran who loves his county. ///
And what county is that? Orange county? I didn’t know the OC is underseige?
sorry couldn’t help myself.
In respnse to, “I WANT THE RIGHT TO VOTE IN THE NEXT US PRESIDENTIALS. WHAT DISTURBES ME MOST IS THE ARROGANCE OF MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE US, NAZIS WERE JUST THE SAME .” Please remember that atleast HALF of this country is opposed to BUSH and opposed this war. We didn’t vote for him and he literally stole the election. A criminal act he will never be put in jail for. So, please do not make blanket statements about Americans being arrogant and backing this “president” and war. For instance, Americans should not think that all French people hold us in contempt. Many French understand our plight and sympathize with those of us who are having to endure this villanous presidential term. When you make such statements, you make yourself appear just as ignorant as any Nazi…someone who does not take the time to know all of the facts and open their mind. PEACE!
Do you know that more than 20,000 sodliers in Saudia Arabia became muslims
The fundamental meaning of terrorist is the person who terrorizes the people, society,country by some means. In BD,ther are many terrorists
from BNP and Awami League. Israelis have occupied the lands of Palestinians illegally and forcefully. Since the palestinians do not have heavy arms to protect their lands from occupiers and the so-called UN and superpower countries do not take any action against Israel’s illegal occupation of foreign land, eventually the palestinians have taken the strategy of “suicide attacks” against the Israelis.You are coming to my house and taking all my properties.When I try to halt you to protect my belongings, you are telling me as terrorist. Because I did not allow you to do so. Once USA helped Bin Laden group around 1980s to fight against Soviet Union.USA is the same country who helped Saddam Hussein to kill thousands of Iranians
around 1980s. Today, they have attacked Iraq illegally without any kind of true evidence. The soldiers of USA are getting killed every day. Why? Whatever USA did until now is just for themselves, not for other people. The Sept.11 was just the outcome of the enmity between USA and Bin Laden for more than last 10 years. Both of them hate each other too much. Bin Laden is telling muslims to kill Americans for political reason and at the same time, President Bush is calling them
as terrorists whom he has political enmity with. Today, USA has attacked Iraq and when Iraqis are trying to kill American Soldiers, they are calling them as terrorists. What do you expect me to do? If I don’t like you or If I don’t listen to you, then you are telling me as terrorist for political reason.
Whoever made this had a lot of time and dedication put into this. A truly touching piece. I salute you. Hats off!!!
The President is a LOSER, and the American people are beginning to figure it out. His poll numbers will continue to decline because nobody likes a LOSER. The Iraqis are seeing us as LOSERS too, because we treat them like crap. And they are beginnning to turn on us too. 800 dead to free them? Who the hell cares about Iraqis? We’ve lost the middle ground in Iraq. There is no winning it now.
– Real Republican
I have one thing to say I have just been reactivated and in 2 1/2 weeks I go to Iraq as part of a security force to ensure peace when we hand over power. If I should die I would be honored to die next to the men and women who believe in and respect our president, everyone should respect our president for the mere fact he has more life changing decisions than all of us combined. You don’t have to love him just respect him. What would you have done if someone had done the things to us and you were in his shoes? And if I die you have no right to put my picture in anything that will degrade my President or my Country! You people who don’t support me or my comrades and sit back and watch the war on t.v., you can shut your mouth because your not the one who has his/her life on the line. American Soldier
That’s all fine and dandy soldier but the problem here is that guy you call the president has proven ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD OR RESPECT for us, the American public in general…… why? because he is supposedly to be the president, he is there to serve US, not serving himself or his own party or his own agenda etc.
He is supposed to respect us.
///everyone should respect our president for the mere fact he has more life changing decisions than all of us combined. You don’t have to love him just respect him.///
And many of us are just giving him the favor back….. there’s no qualms about it.
Ask yourself soldier, do you honestly think the president “respects” you? ……just as I thought.
In response to “soldier’s post above #974
Begin quote of soldier:
“What would you have done if someone had done the things to us and you were in his shoes? And if I die you have no right to put my picture in anything that will degrade my President or my Country! You people who don’t support me or my comrades and sit back and watch the war on t.v., you can shut your mouth because your not the one who has his/her life on the line. American Soldier ”
End quote of soldier
Ben’s response:
Listen, Soldier. You ask “what would you have done the things to us and you were in his shoes”. I assume that you are referring to 9/11. Well, since you ask…
1. I would have immediately called for UN Sanctions against Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
2. I would have called for a multinational force to prosecute al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia.
3. I would have ordered the Attorney General to begin investigations into the financial support that al-Qaeda operatives received in this country. I would have ordered the CIA to begin tracing financial support for al-Qaeda from outside the country.
4. I would have called for an aggressive legal prosecution of any person, corporation or country found to be assisting al-Qaeda.
As for your statement “you can shut your mouth because your [sic] not the one who has his/her life on the line.”
You’re right. We don’t “have our life on the line” in the same way you will. But like most people you miss the more important point.
Patriots question their government. Patriots demand that the government NOT send chuckleheads like you to die needlessly. Patriots mock a President who couldn’t be bothered to show up for National Guard duty, but then sends others to die so he can build his little “empire”. Patriots fight for “regime change” at home, when their President is a mad boy-emperor who makes a joke out of the US. I’m fighting that, the most important fight of all.
You may serve in Iraq, Soldier and even die there. But Soldier, blind allegiance is NOT patriotism
– Ben
Ben, most eloquent!!! Very good response to the soldier. You took the words right out of very own mouth. I just bought a bumper sticker it reads, “PRO-AMERICA…ANTI-BUSH”…you said it perfectly.
In response to post #974
American Soldier,
The history books are full of the names of young men and women who have given their life for the WRONG cause. The 19 hijackers who gave their life to kill thousands of innocent people on 9/11 thought they were dying for a just cause while in fact they were just heeding the ranting of a madman.
More than 800 men and women have so far given their own life to follow the orders of a man who in the best case scenario is a megalomaniac lunatic who thinks he is the angel of God on earth and in the worst case scenario an evil calculator with no scruples whatsoever who plays with the lives and exploits the sincere patriotism of people like you to push his own personal agenda. In either case he has blood in his hands.
You do what you think is right American soldier. I will do what I think is right. That’s what’s freedom is all about. History will tell who was right and who was wrong. I hope you will still be here to see it. Good luck.
Boston, you said “History will tell who was right and who was wrong” , There is nothing to be said any more, you did, but i wish America still there at that time.
Ben , you want us to attack Saudia and Pakistan insteed of Iraq, well.
What if Israeli Mosaad did september 1, read # 872, i am have self satisfaction that Mosaad did.
I am glad that y’all understand the cost of freedom…if you have never lived in a 3rd world/developing/repressed country, you wouldn’t understand how fortunate we are to be able to have this disscussion. Any time a patriots’ picture is posted, i think it gives someone a chance to say thanks for thier service to others,and not the themselves.
You , Americans are killing lovers, did you see the hapeness on your soldier faces beside dead bodys of presoners in abu ghareab, it is your common nature, i am sorry, you will kill each other, before we take revenge for our Iraqi brothers.
The one thing that makes this war dufferent from world wars is the only thing different is Iraq id NOT attack us. We attacked them and did so without all of the “cards” being presented to the public and to Congress. Then to make things worse Bush hyped things up to the point that we HAD to go to war just to save face. Now it has cost us hundreds of men and women – and for what?
This war did nothing to “protect our freedom”! It was nothing more than a ploy by our president to make a name for himself in the “anals” of historty – which he has done at the expese of our blood! These men and women were nopt just martyrs for the cause but they were also “lambs for the slaughter”. The war in Iraq cannot be compaired to any other war as Bush id not have persmission nor support for this war and it did not threaten us as did WWI or WWII or even the Korean war. Knowing the troubke we have had in the past with the Muslim world, we needed to stay out and wait for them to make their moves.
Now we have a “great picture” of Bush made up of the dead he has placed in harm’s way!
I’d like to remind everyone that Bush did not kill these people. The people that we went over there to stop did. Anyone who would compare President Bush to a terrorist is not only insulting the soldiers that have died, but they show a gruesome ignorance to the types of attrocities the terrorists such as Osama Bin Laden commited. We did find a WMD: Sadam. If mudering tens of thousands of your own citizens isn’t mass destuction, then I don’t know what is.
In post # 984 “Wow” said:
“I’d like to remind everyone that Bush did not kill these people. The people that we went over there to stop did. Anyone who would compare President Bush to a terrorist is not only insulting the soldiers that have died, but they show a gruesome ignorance to the types of attrocities the terrorists such as Osama Bin Laden commited. We did find a WMD: Sadam. If mudering tens of thousands of your own citizens isn’t mass destuction, then I don’t know what is.
Comment by Wow “” Sunday May 30, 2004 @ 5:36 pm”
Ben’s response:
You’re right. Bush did not pull the trigger, or plant the bombs, that DIRECTLY killed these soldiers. He did, however, send them into Iraq to overthrow that government, knowing full well that some U.S. soldiers would die.
For THIS he bears FULL, and FINAL responsibility. Were the war justified, then we could all agree he was simply “doing his job.” But it was NOT justified. Therefore he bears responsibility for these deaths, and the deaths of the Iraqis.
As for “gruesome ignorance,” the picture IS NOT comparing Bush to a terrorist. We’re ALL aware of 9/11. But that had NOTHING to do with Iraq.
As for “Sadam [sic]” being a “WMD”, you’re showing “gruesome ignorance” of our historical relationship with him. Read the prior posts that outline our support for him up through the gassing of the Kurds when GW’s dad was in office. You’re also “gruesomely ignorant” of the last 100 years of U.S. foreign policy during which we routinely supported (or ignored) dictators that brutalized their own people. Examples of this are: China, Guatemala, Burma, Cambodia, etc.
The important point is that if GW wanted to have a fundamental change in U.S. foreign policy he could have (and should have) said so. But he didn’t. Instead he trotted out what we now know is a lie about WMD. He grotesquely underestimated that problems that we would face in Iraq after the war.
GW does NOT want to remove every brutal dictator everywhere. He’s more than happy to support and trade with them if that suits his purposes.
Rather, the kind of foreign policy GW wants is to resurrect Imperialism. He wants to have “regime change” where there is money to be made for his friends in Halliburton or where the neocons tell him.
He wants to impose “Pro-U.S. democracy” in countries that have never known such a thing, and may not even want it.
Democracy, as we know it, took CENTURIES to develop (beginning in the 13th century with the signing of the Magna Carta). There is NO evidence that you can short circuit that process in the Middle East, and create a stable, true democracy in a year, or even in a decade.
– Ben
U*S*M*C*——————-from the future wife of a United States Marine, God Bless all of our Service Men/Women and I hope that we don not have any other pictures to add to this mosiac.
in response to comments by SV and Ben (#985): I have been reading your responses so far and they have been quite brilliant. How easy it is for some people to quickly label those who do not support the war as “anti-americans”, democrats, “you’re going to vote for Kerry” and what not. I’m so sick of that. Come up with something else please.
Can’t we put all those differences aside for one lousy moment and stop to think that these are real lives at stake.
I don’t support the war in Iraq. Period. Don’t get me wrong. I’m sure some of you out there must be reading this and saying “TRAITOR”. But think about it, this war isn’t the same as WWII when the Japanese empire attacked Pearl Harbor, so to compare the two would be quite ignorant. I’m actually thankful that the Americans got involved in WWII, otherwise everyone in my homeland would still be speaking Japanese and bowing down to a Japanese flag, no doubt!
To date there have been 817 military deaths in Iraq alone. One was Lance Corporal Sides from 9th Communications Battalion, Camp Pendleton, who died just 2 days ago in Iraq. Only 22 years old he leaves his family and fiancee behind. He served in my husbands unit in the United States Marine Corps and is from Yakima, Washington. He was killed when the truck he was driving en route from Fallujah exploded when it hit a land mine.
How many more lives will be sacrificed? Are we really in pursuit of freedom? In what direction, may I ask? Where are the ever elusive WMDs? Is this war really about “freedom”? Is it a coincidence that Iraq happens to be floating on a sea of oil?
In response to #984, Saddam was not a WMD as you happily name him. And while he may have killed many people, sometimes it is not the United States duty to step in and oust any dictator as they wish. Reading this I’m sure many of you out there will be outraged and say “We police the world and help people”. Perhaps it may be suggested that intervention only comes in where the financial interest is. When the genocide was occuring in Rwanda, where was the help? Over 100,000 Rwandans were slaughtered within 2 weeks, and the US did nothing to aide the European peacekeepers. Muslim women and children raped and killed on a daily basis in Bosnia Herzegovina during the Bosnian-Serbian war (1991-1995), where was the help? Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic was a mass murderer, commanding ethnic cleaning of muslim communities across Bosnia, then why didn’t the US send any troops there?
Its great that all of you can express yourself on this page but before you go badmouthing your president ask yourself who you voted for or if you even voted at all. This country was founded on the idea that all people should be free and i bet you like being free don’t, but don’t ever forget that sacrifices have to be made. For most of you that contradict this war you need to remember that everybody who joined the military did it because they felt freedom was worth fighting for. Even if it isn’t your own freedom, that is part of the military ethos “SELFLESS SERVICE”.
If you don’t like the freedom you have or don’t feel that others are welcome to that same freedom, it is truly sad that you call yourself an american. this war was never expected to be a short expidition anything worth having takes time and dedication. for those of you who are crying over the loss of civillian life you would make great iraqi soldiers cause you would use innocent people as body shields too. sounds to me like cowardice has become contagious. And in reference to those who beleive that those who FREEDOM ISN’T FREE aren’t wiling to carry it, need to cut their hippie hair and find out where the saying originated, within the military.
Another Patriot says: “If you don’t like the freedom you have or don’t feel that others are welcome to that same freedom, it is truly sad that you call yourself an american”.
The sad thing is that there is still people like you who still buy the lie that we went into Iraq to give them freedom and democracy.
Another Patriot says: “this war was never expected to be a short expidition anything worth having takes time and dedication”.
Once again, you are talking in abstract terms. Time and dedication? I would say blood and money in this case… Lots of it!
Another Patriot says: “for those of you who are crying over the loss of civillian life you would make great iraqi soldiers cause you would use innocent people as body shields too”.
I don’t know if I would make a good iraqi soldier. I know I would make a lousy american soldier though, because I could never force a prisoner to take off his clothes and roll himself in his own crap or sodomize him with a light stick. I am not cut out for that. I just don’t have the guts.
Another Patriot says: “sounds to me like cowardice has become contagious”.
It always does in times of war, as our president knows very well.
In post #988 a guy who calls himself “patriot” says
“before you go badmouthing your president ask yourself who you voted for or if you even voted at all.”
Ben’s response: I voted. For a guy who would not have gotten us into this mess. His name was Al Gore.
#988–>: “but don’t ever forget that sacrifices have to be made.”
Ben’s response: You’re right. Sacrifices have to be made. Unfortunately our kids will sacrifice by paying the debt created by this war.
#988–>: “For most of you that contradict this war you need to remember that everybody who joined the military did it because they felt freedom was worth fighting for. ”
Ben’s response: This is the most boneheaded part of the post. Look. The Iraqis DO want freedom.
But they DO NOT want AMERICAN STYLE freedom.
The Sunnis want the FREEDOM TO OPPRESS THE SHIITES.
The Shiites want the FREEDOM TO OPPRESS THE SUNNIS.
The Kurds want the FREEDOM TO KICK SUNNIS OUT OF KIRKUK AND FORM THEIR OWN STATE.
Many Iraqis want the freedom to form a religious state and persecute religious minorities.
These blood feuds (think Hatfields and McCoys) have been going on for CENTURIES. You think we’re going to stop it overnight? As long as we’re there they will view us as getting in the way of their “freedom.”
#988–>: “sounds to me like cowardice has become contagious.”
Ben’s response: No. But it sure looks like STUPIDITY has.
#989–>: “FREEDOM ISN’T FREE”
Ben’s response: Right you are. And Iraqi “freedom” has cost $100 BILLION so far. When you consider what KIND of freedom they want (see my comments above), most of us agree IT IS NOT WORTH IT.
Blind allegiance IS NOT PATRIOTISM.
– Ben
wow your #984,
///I’d like to remind everyone that Bush did not kill these people. The people that we went over there to stop did. Anyone who would compare President Bush to a terrorist is not only insulting the soldiers that have died, but they show a gruesome ignorance to the types of attrocities the terrorists such as Osama Bin Laden commited. We did find a WMD: Sadam. If mudering tens of thousands of your own citizens isn’t mass destuction, then I don’t know what is. ///
The thing is even if 911 NEVER took place and Osama was NEVER born, Bush still would want to and in fact will take on Iraq.
What’s more perfect than to take Iraq under the large blanket (and it is HUGE) of fighing terrorism? Hell! We can take on Castro and we can still call it fighting terror!
Bush, whether you find his part little or big, is to blame….. again for THE IRAQ WAR and that war only (as far as this discussion is concern).
Another Patriot your,
Then DO IT RIGHT! DO IT HONORABLY! DO IT IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY YOU SO HIGHLY TALKED ABOUT! ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD! RIGHT?
Where’s the justice in Sudan? Where’s the justice in China? Where’s the justice and freedom in Saudi Arabia? In fact where’s the justice and freedom in Iraq? Where’s the money FOR the Iraqis? Are you WILLING (and you have to being willing to bear the cost of this cause) to EMPTY most if not all of what you got in your pockets in order to do this ‘right’ and do this honorably! I’m not talking about mere couple of billions here and there…. some lose change to help a handful of Iraqis…. I’m talking about trillions and trillions for NATION BUILDING purposes! Are YOU willing to pay for THAT price? No? Then YOU SHOULD SHUT UP about attacking us with your own righteous ideals because you’re just like the rest of us….. CAN’T AND NOT WILLING TO PAY FOR THAT PRICE! The men and women in the services ARE paying for that price, with their lives….. but we need to do OUR part to give whatever we can to this cause……. anything short of that is a lost cause!
You’re right freedom isn’t free…… but are YOU paying for it? Unless you’re a soldier serving over there (your loved ones doesn’t count) or you’re donating half of your income or savings towards the funds for the nation building of Iraq then you aren’t paying for it. Unless you’re one of those two things, you have NO RIGHT to attack me or anybody else for voicing our own opinion about this or telling me that you’re better than I in the education of freedom! You’re not.
America has always stood for the rule of law. We have lost stature as a country that follows the rule of law and have little standing to invoke international law in the future. The world and the UN were with us in Afghanistan. We failed to take the UN and the world with us into Iraq because of the arrogance and fear of the Bush administration. We have fulfilled the worst Islamic view of the US. We are not safer because of Bush’s conversation with God about freedom for Iraq. Failure to bring the world and the UN with us against Saddam will haunt us for generations.
The Brits, as empire builders, learned that taking out leaders usually brought unintended consequences.
When will Americans learn the lesson?
WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PPL. W/O BUSH SUDDAM WOULD STILL BE IN POWER AND AMERICA WOULD HAVE MORE TERRORISTIC ATTACKS. IN WAR PPL DIE. THAT”S JUST HOW IT IS NOW GET OVER IT. MORE WOULD DIE FROM TERRORISTIC THREATS. DO YOU REALLY THINK THOSE SOLDIERS WOULD WANT YOU TO BLAME BUSH FOR THEIR DEATHS???????????
These men gladly died for freedom. You cowardly sit back and live under the freedom they died for.
God, how stupid some people are… ##995-996! Will you explain me what Iraq had done to support terrorist atacks against USA??? They didn’t have weapon.. I’m not even talking about modern weapon of mass destraction, they didn’t have even modern tanks and air forces!!! They do have only machine guns… So, they didn’t have weapons, they didn’t have money (they didn’t have enough even to buy food)… So you atacked Iraq just because some US people don’t like Saddam, and some US strategists thought about cheep oil… That’s it. All the rest is the pathetic element, patriotic shit, and dust in the eyes of usual people who now behave like a herd (flock)… Bush is a herdsman and what he said – you do it. Bush said – “that country is bad” and hundreds of US soldiers dies with a smile that they are doing it for someone’s freedom… Bullshit!!!
I repeat my question – WHY YOU DIDN’T ATACK SAUDY ARABIA??? THEY GAVE MONEY AND PEOPLE FOR TERRORIST GROUPS!!!! WHY NOT SOMALY, WHERE THOUSANS OF PEOPLE DIE BECAUSE OF DESPOTIC REGIME???
And by the way, the more US government will fight against terrorism all over the world, the more peolple will hate USA and will fight aganst its empire. If you had never took your soldiers out of the country (I’m not talking about WWII) you would never had tarrorism problems and such desperate abhorrence from people of the Planet.
US soldiers are preparing for Bagdad atack. Some of them are praying:
First: God, help me to survive, or if I die let me die like a hero!
Second: God, please destroy all oil-fields in Russia!
First: Are you crazy? Why do you need Russian oil fields?
Second: I don’t want after Iraq oil to defend democracy in Russian cold Syberia…
Перед штурмом Багдада американÑкие Ñолдаты молÑÑ‚ÑÑ.
Один:
– ГоÑподи, помоги мне выжить или умереть героем.
Второй:
– ГоÑподи, Ñделай так, чтобы в Тюмени закончилаÑÑŒ нефть.
Первый:
– Ты че?
Второй:
– Ртебе охота защищать демократию в холодной Сибири?!
when the power of love can overcome the love of power there will be peace.
blessed be.
the problem is Bush and just about everyone on captiol hill doesn’t “love” us or the people of the world for that matter.
i like to be come an america soldier and i need asistance to do so
In post # 996 “The Able Few (braincells)” said
“These men gladly died for freedom. You cowardly sit back and live under the freedom they died for. ”
Ben’s response:
“Able”, you’re obviously not familiar with Iraq. Many (perhaps most) Iraqis DO NOT WANT “American style” freedom.
American freedom is largely the freedom to be left alone, free of unwanted government intrusion in our lives. Our freedom is the freedom of everyone to dress the way the want, wear their hair, or beards however they want. Our freedom is the freedom to practice any religion, or no religion. Our freedom is the freedom to speak even when what we say is unpopular.
The “freedom” many Iraqis want is the freedom to
1. have “shariah” or Islamic law imposed on themselves and others.
2. to be able to dictate the clothing and hairstyles of themselves and others.
3. to be able to oppress others religious and ethnic groups (e.g. the Kurds)
Our soldiers did not die for freedom. They died for oppression. Or at the very least a kind of freedom that is very different from ours.
As to “living under the freedom that they died for” NOW you are just plain wrong.
We won our freedom from the British, and we have defended it in our courts, and on our streets, and in the halls of Congress ever since. Our freedom has NOTHING to do with Iraq, or the fine men who died so pointlessly there. You would know this if you would only pick up a history book.
– Ben
///We won our freedom from the British, and we have defended it in our courts, and on our streets, and in the halls of Congress ever since. Our freedom has NOTHING to do with Iraq, or the fine men who died so pointlessly there. You would know this if you would only pick up a history book. ///
No kidding.
this is a sad day when our childern are fighting a war that has no meaning!!!!!! the other wars. those men died for our county and not a man and his father war…
I suggest those of you american that are so fond of historical facts, go home and liberate all those you yourself oppress (hint, look in your history books and search for slavery and indians).
Here is an article describing the “natural” situation in Iraq. Hussein (like Tito of Yugoslavia) was able to keep a lid on it by creating a caste system in Iraq maintained by brutal oppression. For those readers who believe we are “defending freedom” in Iraq, you would do well to read this article and think about what it implies for a “post-Saddam” Iraq.
Note: according to an alleged witness the SUNNI police turned the SHIITE prisoners over to men who may not have even been Iraqis. Clearly, if true, the animosities between the Shiites and the Sunnis run very, very deep. In such a country, who will create democracy in Iraq? The Sunnis? The Shiites? Ha!!!
(“Say hello to the new guys….same as the old guys).
– Ben
=====================
Funeral held for six Shiite drivers
By Sameer N. Yacoub, Associated Press, 6/15/2004 10:35
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) Dozens of angry Shiites accused Fallujah police Tuesday of handing over Shiite truck drivers to Sunni extremists who slaughtered them after they sought refuge at a police station. Iraqi authorities denied the charge.
The allegations were raised at a funeral service in Baghdad’s Firdos Square for six Shiite truck drivers whose bodies were found Monday at a morgue in Ramadi, west of Fallujah.
Mourners said the men were delivering a load of tents to the Fallujah Brigade, a force that cooperates with the U.S. military in the restive city 40 miles west of the capital.
On their return trip to Baghdad on June 5, the drivers were stopped by armed men who identified themselves as ”mujahedeen,” fighters who battled Marines to a standstill in April.
The six drivers escaped and sought refuge in a police station, the mourners said. However, they were handed over to a hard-line Sunni cleric because they were Shiites, the mourners said.
They were killed after the men who were holding them, one of them a Syrian, demanded $3,000 for each driver, the mourners said. Their families could not afford the ransom.
Col. Adnan Abdul-Rahman, spokesman of the Interior Ministry, described the allegations against the police as ”baseless,” but confirmed that the killings took place in the Fallujah area.
If true, the incident raises new questions about the capability of the Iraqi police to handle security after the handover of sovereignty June 30.
A 12-year-old boy, Mohammed Khudeir, said he was among those allegedly handed over by the police. But the cleric and his followers let him go, apparently because of his age.
”We tried to seek police protection, but the policemen handed us over,” Khudeir said. He said the cleric ”handed us over to a group of Arabs who spoke with non-Iraqi accents. I was tortured for a while, but then I was released.”
Khudeir’s brother and uncle were slain by the insurgents, he said.
The hard-line cleric to whom the police reportedly handed over the men dismissed claims he was involved in the killings, but said he was ready to stand trial in an Islamic court if credible evidence against him was provided.
”I am not a criminal, nor an assassin, nor bloodthirsty,” Imam Abdullah al-Janabi told Al-Arabiya television. ”I am above these accusations. I cannot stain my hands with a crime.”
One man, Alaa Mery, said that on June 8, he went to Fallujah to negotiate for the hostages’ release. He said he met with some Syrians who identified themselves as members of the extremist Wahhabist sect predominant in Saudi arabia and said they were holding the drivers because they collaborated with the Americans.
”Fallujah clerics and people made a big fuss regarding Abu Ghraib torture, but now they are killing and mutilating Muslims,” Mery said, referring to the American abuse of Iraqis at the Abu Ghraib prison. ”They are not resistance. They are a copy of Saddam.”
Wow, it seems like a simple picture really is worth a thousand words. And it also seems to me like the rights vs. lefts battle that has been going on here left the rights thouroughly trounced, not one of you has come up with a decent argument.
They right sides argument seem to be:
The left does not appreciate_______ (insert president/responsibilities/soldiers/freedom etc.)
The lefts argument run more along the lines of:
-War is good for no one
-Bush is not a good leader
My PERSONAL response to the right (dont hold me accountable for my entire parties belief, I am liberal):
You have no agument. There is a reason you label yourselves conservative, you dont like change, you dont like radical thought, you wish things would stay the same and disobedience is frightening to you. This is all part of human nature, I can understand why someone would be upset over all this. Unfortunatley, the evidence is against you. The facts, as they lie currently, are that:
Bush made a mistake, he actually made several mistakes. War was not the answer, there is almost NEVER a good reason for war, and Bush’s certainly wasnt sound enough to justify it. Innocent people die in war. Only if the world itself is in imminent danger of being ovverun is there a reason for war. Bush struck the first blow, and therefore he is the agressor, and has lost all right to justification. All excuses for him at that point are merely that, excuses.
Does this make Bush evil? No, hes not a bad guy. Hes doing what he thinks is right. But hes DUMB. He doesnt deserve to be the president, honestly. I can honestly say that all you conservatives that argue for him dont really care about HIM but about your approach to life, he respresents your party and so you feel you must protect him from the “dems” or “liberals”. The president is our leader, our representative to the rest of world. He is our best, he shouldnt MAKE mistakes, especially on that scale. There is too much at stake. And if he DOES make mistakes, allow him to make a few and forgive him. Any more than a few is too much though, it proves he is not worthy of his post. He cannot carry the burden of leadership of the United States. And none of that makes him evil, just unable. Bush, in my opinion, has made too many mistakes. Its time for him to go, and give someone else a chance. I know I havnt exposed the truth to any hardcore conservatives (or liberals for that matter) but any of you wavering on the edges, I hope you are swayed by this page. Vote democratic, vote liberal, vote greenparty whatever. Just dont vote bush!
Yours truly, Phil
ps, I just realized there are twenty thousand other posts ahead of me, so I guess most people wont ever read my comment. Ah well. If you do read this feel free to email me with your questions/concerns.
One is Too Many !!!!
Bush has been rightly caught. Why not somone forward him this.
Dont be so ploticital, some of you see this picture as a glass that is half full others see it it half empty! Real people died for this picture have respect
2004/06/17
Looks like typical shallow thinking. The blame game. Find someone whose fault it is. The President is at fault for iverything that is bad. This is the typical media level of intellegence and we fall for it. The fault lies with the fringe religious fanatics and the dumb sheep who follow them. Pick one. Bin Laden, Saddam, various fringe radical religious leaders who make anyone who doesen’t agree with them into a devil. Then they preach and foment hatred among people who are mostly emotion and no thinking ability, who follow, support, kill and die for them.
Beau,
You apparently don’t have a lot of combat time or you wouldn’t make the remark about dying willingly. Many of the people in these pictures were the victim of cowardly suicide bombers. I think any who support this invasion should get in uniform and head over there so those who were involuntarily extended can come home. We don’t have a draft but what is an involuntary extension if not a kind of draft? If you think this is a cause worth fighting for then go fight for it. Don’t be so quick to lay my son’s life on the line unless you are willing to put yours there as well. I guess that’s a bit like put up or shut up. You are entitled to your opinion but do a year in combat and then make it an informed opinion.
If you are interested in seeing exactly how Rumsfeld, Bush, and Wolfowitz contradicted themselves on the war, please visit the website below. It shows actual quotes from televised speeches and how they later denied having said these very things.
http://www.house.gov/reform/min/features/iraq_on_the_record/
Responding to #1012
“The fault lies with the fringe religious fanatics and the dumb sheep who follow them. Pick one.”
The first one that comes to mind? George W. Bush!
“……. various fringe radical religious leaders who make anyone who doesen’t agree with them into a devil. Then they preach and foment hatred among people who are mostly emotion and no thinking ability, who follow, support, kill and die for them.”
Fits his description beautifully….
How ashamed I feel that I cannot salute the casket of a Soldier returning home. How ashamed I feel that I am not allowed to send comfort to the families by showing my respect of their dead son,daughter,mother,father,grandson,granddaughter,lover and friend. How ashamed I feel that all these people will never know how sorry I am they have died for this War and I was not allowed to salute you. How ashamed I feel that I can never personal identify each person within my own soul. How ashamed I am that I have allowed a President to tell me how I must feel. How ashamed I am that each day will go by and I will never be able to say thank you personally for this sacrifice. How ashamed I feel that I have allowed a Man (President) to make me feel ashamed.
To all family members, thank you for your son/daughter’s sacrifice. I am sorry. ::::hangs head :::::
BL (Bin Laden? sorry couldn’t resist ) Bennett your,
You forget to mention George W Bush to that list of ‘radical religious leaders’…… he’s the one who’s adding the R to Washington and I don’t just mean Republican…… Have you taken a look at his party’s policies lately? Funding for faith based groups? Abortion issues? The Christian coalition etc. Americans are living in thrid world ghettos and he’s talking funding to preists and followers and building ever more bigger churches?
What do you think evangelicals like Pat Robertson (Bush supporter) believes? That’s right if you’re not Christian you’re going to hell…. Jews are no exception either…… now why is that kind of rhetoric is so similar to those who drove those planes into the towers on 911?