A mosaic of soldiers who have died in Iraq:
Original Source. Mirrored here in small, medium, and large sizes. The largest is about 4.4 megabytes and you can clearly make out each face. It’s also good to take a step back from the screen.
A mosaic of soldiers who have died in Iraq:
Original Source. Mirrored here in small, medium, and large sizes. The largest is about 4.4 megabytes and you can clearly make out each face. It’s also good to take a step back from the screen.
1,023 thoughts on “Moving Image”
Might be worth mentioning, that all of the pictures must be on there two or three times (There are 31 across by 47 down which means 1457 pictures.) I believe there have “only” been around 500-600 soldiers that have died. It’s still a moving image, though.
My hair is standing. I feel chilled.
That is really sad to look at. Imagine how many family members are behind each of those photos.
FREEDOM ISN”T FREE!!!! You idiots would probably have objected fighting the Japs during WWII as well. Try watching the History Channel once in awhile instead of MTV.
No, “George”, Cheap Oil isn’t free. And more of those faces died *after* Dubya declared victory from a staged photo-op on an aircraft carrier. No end is in sight and no plan is in sight either.
Freedom isn’t free, yes. But that’s no excuse to go throwing your currency away on speculative deals.
Cool image, Matt.
Thank you. What an incredibly moving image–I am in serious awe!
Its a sad picture but you need to look at the whole picture… how many people died in vietnam? WW II? WW I? the Civil War? our troops have done a hell of a job there so only 600 have died.
With an average loss of over one soldier a day, and estimates of the US presence in Iraq running from 18 to 24 months before we can even consider pulling out, it does not really matter much that images may have been used three times. This powerful image is as much a comment on the future as it is the situation to date. With other nations responding to the democratic will of their citizens and getting the hell out of Iraq, American families and friends can expect a greater number of US soldiers and civilians being sent to Iraq in airplane seats and coming home in body bags. To the clever tyke who commented about “Freedom isn’t Free,” how ignorant to compare to WW II and Japan. Along with the History channel, you might want to crack a book. Iraq has yet to attack the US and this bombing raid and occupation is not about Freedom. And bravo on elevating the conversation, “Japs…” do you use the terms: “chinks, spics, kykes, wops, huns and niggers” too? Nice work on the image Matt
To clarify, the image is not mine and I did not make it. I got it from the source indicated.
An amazing picture. I have added a link to it from my chart of US military deaths in Bush’s Iraq Crusade.
I wonder if the same person who made this will do one of Saddam Hussein using the faces of all people of Halabja? On March 16th 1988 5,000 innocet civilians, 75% women and children perished in a Chemicla attack ordered by Saddam. Check it out http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
Freedom isn’t free, its bought with the blood of sons and daughters. The men in the photo above willingly paid that proce without question.
I’m glad we have the freedom to speak our minds in this country. We can give our opinions, protest things we disagree with, criticize people; even the president, without the fear of retaliation. We can even make mozaics of people we think are responsible for the death of our soldiers. Personally I give thanks to these brave soldiers who gave their life up to free others, so that they too may have the ability to give their opinion, protest things they disagree with, criticize people; even their president, WITHOUT THE FEAR OF RETALIATION!.
Wow I think we’re on to something! The Iraqi people now have the same kind of freedom to criticize just as we do, and believe me they’re using it.
War is unfortunate no matter who initiates it. Somebody’s husband, Wife, Brother, Sister, or Son dies, and in some cases whole families; our troops are no exception.
Maybe the author of this mozaic should have done a mozaic of Saddam and all the people he’s killed, and while he’s at it make one of Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, etc…and the list goes on….. (you get the point). Instead of wasting countless hours making a mosaic of an “opinion” (albeit respected), maybe do something constructive like helping Our Troops stay alive. Forget politics for one bit, besides we’re already in this mess, and focus on the important things. Who knows? maybe you can make a difference in one soldiers life so that he may not loose it and come back home. I put my money where my mouth is (so to speak). I am a volunteer for an organization call Operation Gratitude we send care packages to the troops to boost their morale, and maybe keep them alive in the process. Remember some of these guys out there may think no one cares and give up. Don’t let your political opinions get in the way of helping our husbands, wives, brothers, sisters or sons. Who knows maybe someone will make a mozaic of the counless people who care (it’s gonna take a whole lotta pictures!).
I agree that it is unfortunate that the dead are used to make a political statement. It just seems wrong to use them in that manner if the families weren’t contacted for permission (out of common courtesy at least). As for the effectiveness of the image… It is just propaganda, and one’s response will depend on your position. So I don’t see it as changing any minds – just reaffirming those which have already decided.
As an aside: why do people respond to trolls like the poster identified as “George Bush”? Internet flames are so childish.
SW – You said other countries are getting out. So I guess you will vote for Kerry who promises to keep us in. It’s the Dems who want to repeat the same mistakes of Vietnam – send in more troops, push back the date for self rule. Kerry’s got some nerve, he voted for this action now he’s saying it was a mistake. Someone should take make a picture with his face on it.
This is the problem with discourse in the US today. You comment on the ineptness and fallacy of the president you are no longer permitted to call yourself an American. It is also assumed that your opinion is invalid because you belong to one political party or the other. Folks, its not the party, it is the idea that matters. America is not a political party it is an ideal built upon ideas.
There are republicans that criticize Bush, and just because I criticize him does not mean that I am a democrat or bound to vote for Kerry. There is no logical tie between countries pulling out of Iraq and me voting for Kerry. I am not going to take the bait and try and defend Kerry’s record on anything or try to speak for the man, that is his job between now and the election.
I think the recent public polls in the US prove my point. It is not a majority of Americans that want to vote for Kerry, it is a majority of Americans that want anybody but Bush, something that seems to be lost on BOTH the major parties.
You can not dismiss my ideas by labeling me democrat, republican or whatever political group you do not belong to, if you are going to do it, do it with the brilliance of your thought not the stigma of your label.
A mosaic of Saddam Hussein using his victims sounds like a good idea, if possible it should be done.
However Hussien’s tyranny does absolve Bush from his actions, lies and caviler attitude with America’s soldiers. Freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people were not the reasons Bush, Cheney and Powell gave in front of US citizens and the world for waging war. It was to remove WMDs and protect America (and the world) from terrorists. The freedom of the Iraqi people is only a rationalization after 1) no evidence that Hussein was responsible for 9/11 was found, and subsequently 2) no evidence of WMDs was found. *Terrorism* has all but disappeared from the standard Whitehouse sound-bites for the press, we are now *freedom fighters.*
Sadly, as Clark testified, despite the valor of these soldiers, exactly because of this war-president America is no safer from terrorism today than it was on 9/11.
These people in Falluja that we’re attacking are no threat to the USA. Just shows how far out of hand this conflict has become.
Maybe the author of this mozaic should have done a mozaic of Saddam and all the people he’s killed, and while he’s at it make one of Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, etc—and the list goes onï¿½..
Every life is sacred, every death a tragedy. As a free nation, founded on this principle amongst others, we have a duty to ensure this remains true for us. Yes, from Iraq to Afghanistan, from Egypt to Saudi Arabia, from Hitler’s Germany to Stalin’s Soviet Union, hundreds of millions of lives have been destroyed by crooked rulers, megalomanic dictators, or thoughtless commanders.
Instead of wasting countless hours making a mosaic of an “opinion” (albeit respected), maybe do something constructive like helping Our Troops stay alive.
As a former member of the armed forces, as someone who subscribed – and subscribes – to an ideal that includes my death for a cause I deem just and worthy, I don’t think of this mosaic as a “waste”. These men and women in uniform, these soldiers, died to disarm a dictator who needed no disarmament. The man who sent them there, pictured as a mosaic comprised of their images, has yet to honor one of them by attending their funerals. The man who smiled, when he cried “bring it on”, the man who smiled, when he announced, a few days ago, he’d expect more of those deaths as the deadline draws near. This mosaic shows whose lives have been destroyed to allow this man to smile. It shows someone who cut their danger pay, their salaries, and who is unwilling to pay their injured brothers and sisters in arms enough to live after they lost limbs in a war, this man wanted to be “brought on”.
This mosaic shows more than just a bunch of DDSs (dead and disposable, served), it shows what he, who is nothing but a mosaic of other’s sacrifices, is made of.
Forget politics for one bit, besides weï¿½re already in this mess, and focus on the important things.
I am not a politician. I am a soldier. For me, the accountability of a commander in chief is the most important thing.
Who knows? maybe you can make a difference in one soldiers life so that he may not loose it and come back home.
I would hope to make a difference in more than just one life. I would hope, that I am able to show, why those men and women died, able to show their need for adequate armor and training, able to show, that I care about their safety and their lives.
I do this, by exposing those who endanger them. I do this, by exposing those, whose decisions and words created a situation you so aptly describe as a “mess” up there. A mess it is, indeed.
I put my money where my mouth is (so to speak). I am a volunteer for an organization call Operation Gratitude we send care packages to the troops to boost their morale
I applaud your efforts, and I bow before you. You, like the men and women in Iraq, are a hero in my book. I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and – as a veteran, soldier, and human – will hold your name in the same esteem I hold the names of my living and fallen brothers and sisters.
I must, however, as you this one thing – if, as a soldier, I had to chose between someone sending me a care packet and someone lobbying my fellow Americans to show who got us into this mess, hoping the next commander in chief will not deny my request for a kevlar vest and more diplomacy instead of “bring it on <smirk>”, I would chose the latter.
My morale will improve in either case, yet having a psychologist on staff in my unit, a kevlar vest that could have saved so many lives, and the knowledge that “up there”, someone acts to reduce violence rather than dismissing it as necessary, might do even more the trick.
Don’t let your political opinions get in the way of helping our husbands, wives, brothers, sisters or sons. Who knows maybe someone will make a mozaic of the counless people who care (it’s gonna take a whole lotta pictures!).
If someone does, I will print it and hang it in my bedroom. There is a lot of good will and support out there, that can REALLY help our troops. You are one of those people. Flags on SUVs and “bring it on”, however…
It’s so sad …
This use of photographs can’t remotely be compared to the shame of President Bush using 9/11 as a backdrop for his ads. What’s more, this is exactly the kind of thing the administration doesn’t want America to see, which is why the press has been excluded from documenting the return of the wounded and dead. If you want to see coverage by a truly ‘free press’, look at the BBC’s reporting of the war both in Iraq and in military hospitals here (or refer to the network coverage of Viet Nam). Now that’s unbiased.
The sad fact is that people still equate supporting the troops with supporting the President. The troops have no choice, it is their job. Ours is to ask important questions. We fought a great war against a regime that didn’t tolerate dissension. Unfortunately the Republicans have never been very adept at planning wars, Grenada being their claim to fame. This war violates basic military principles, which call for contingency plans to be in place before the commencement of hostilities. Our Commander in Chief must at least be held to the same standards as a field commander. By that measure, even Eisenhower would have been relieved if he had committed such gaffs in WW2.
The real tragedy here is that poor leadership and our misguided efforts to impose democracy on a country that has never embraced it, will ultimately result in the deaths of enough of our men and women to require a mosaic of larger proportions.
I feel for all these soldiers because I too was a soldier for 25 plus years. I knew when I enlisted into the military that I may have to sacrifice my life for my country and would do so to preserve the freedoms that we have today. When I hear people complain about the lives that have been lost, it saddens me and doesn’t make the family of a lost soldier feel any better knowing that some of our fellow citizens are complaining. We need to honor those families whose sons or daughters made that ultimate sacrifice so that “WE” could live in a free country and express our opinions. We all need to sit back and enjoy what we have because of Soldiers like the ones above who weren’t afraid to sacrifice their life so we could live ours.
A very moving image. Regardless of what you think about war with Iraq, the lack of planning that went into the post-War period is scandalous. There is no doubt we are in a quagmire now: it’s a bad situation, but it will be worse if we leave.
It’s interesting that several posts below that seem to be supportive of Bush are inadvertantly comparing Bush to Saddam, Hitler, Milosovic, etc. I believe the Bush is in the same category as these ruthless and single-minded rulers. Bush has not made our country safer, he has not made freedom for anyone. He has ignored diplomacy, democracy, and has sought to wage war and make his friends rich at every turn. This war, like all wars since WWII (which was the last *real* war) is all about empire building, and was completely optional and has lined corporate coffers with BILLIONS of our tax dollars, along with the blood of people who are the true patriots – our soldiers.
The blood is on Bush’s hands and this image brings that point home better than anything I can think of.
First of all I want to say THANK YOU to our brave soldiers that have lost their lives as well as the ones that are still fighting and the ones that have came home. Not just anybody could do their job. This picture is really moving and it makes people sit back and think about everything that iraq is costing us. I wish Bush would let our troops come home and then come up with some kindof game plan and let everything settle down then go back with peace efforts. Watching the people of iraq celebrating over them ambushing a SUV and mangleing two of them so bad is something that we need to think about. Our Country is stronger than that but our Country is smarter than that too!
Really moving image. Thanks so much for posting it!
To Beau and his post # 16
Saddam did a lot of his killing with weapons we gave him, knowing he was not a nice guy. We gave him technology for the chemical weapons. Apparently we didn’t really worry about what he was going to do with them. And our soldiers who died did have questions. Mainly, “Why are we here?”
I wont to thank all the guys that have been in iraq fighting for us i have a brother over ther fighting for us we love you timmy
That would be a moving image… if it didnt have the face of Bush on it.
It’s Bush’s face that makes it moving, jp! How symbolic. This is really moving me. RespeKtion.
I am sicken when I hear about the invasion in Iraq. The 12 year of sanctions against Iraq caused 1.5 MILLION women and children to lose their lives. Holliday once said that this was a genocide when he stepped down in 1998. Remember, iraq only has 24 million people. To lose 1.5 million in 12 years is like america losing 20 million in the same time span.
If muslims did that to america (which I hope to god they never do), I would hijack a plane and crach it in mecca.
The only right thing that bush, cheney, powel, rumsfield, and ashcroft have done to this point is place saddamn hussien behind bars. Now they need to place themselves in the same jail cell as mr. hussien for the rest of their lives. And condi should have an adjacent cell.
I am ashamed of being an american right now. I am ashamed to see 500+ faces that will never be with us again. I am ashamed to see the thousands upon thousands of innocent iraqis dieing in their own country. We are losing the battle on terror. I hope that my brothers and sisters recogonize this and vote against mr. bush.
There have been some comments to the effect that the war in Iraq requires unquestioning patriotism as in WWII. Simple consideration of history will show there is no valid comparison between these conflicts. However even if one were to grant the comparison as valid (which I do not), it is interesting to consider that patriotic soldiers fighting and dying for Germany and Japan might have appreciated some dissent at home.
Dissent and protest are not unpatriotic.
Notice the comment #8, He calls everyone idiots, last time I watched the history channel I learned that Japan actually attacked us!!!I don’t remember Iraq doing that.
There have been 748 coalition deaths, 645 Americans, 59 Britons, five Bulgarians, one Dane, one Estonian, 17 Italians, two Poles, one Salvadoran, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and four Ukrainians, in the war as of April 8, 2004. The list below reflects the names of the soldiers, Marines, airmen and sailors whose families have been notified of their deaths by each country’s government. There have been 2,988 U.S. troops wounded in action, according to the Pentagon. This list is updated regularly. For a look at the casualties by age, gender, race and service branch, click here.
I agree that the pretext for the Iraqi war (part 2) was poorly presented and probably based on false intel. However, the US does not have the luxury of becoming involved only when attacked. It’s a very different world today than in 1940s; no nation can hope to win in a military confrontation w/ the US (if this wasn’t true North Korea would have tried something by now – as well as a while host of others.) So if the US is never attacked, under what circumstances is it “appropriate” for us to become involved? Food for thought: the 10th anniversary of the Rwandan genocide was observed this past week: 800,000 people killed in 100 days, 8,000/day. Hutsie extremists were responsible for this tragedy (which, WWII buffs, has been described as MUCH more efficient butchery than the Nazi death camps in terms of deaths/day.FYI.) No Western nation intervened at the time, mainly because none were “attacked” by the extremist Hutsies. Is it “right” for a nation founded on the ideals of individual freedom and justice & which has the means to save even a fraction of those lives to stand aside and do nothing? (This is not a Clinton-bashing post – he did both good & bad things while in office & this situation came to light after the Somalia/Mogadishu debacle.) On a smaller scale, if you see a person getting mugged on the street and you can help, you will, right? Even if the possibility of your own injury or death cannot be ruled out? This is NOT a nation of such cowardice. A human life is a human life – it is amazing to me that people can get soooo upset about 600 soldiers dying in a war over the course of a year (people who knew DARN well that that’s a risk that comes with the job) but few people if any are outraged by the 43,000 civilian Americans killed in the last 12 months in car wrecks for no good reason. They say that nationwide seatbelt laws could save 12,000 peaople /yr. So why doesn’t someone make a clever mosaic of Bush’s face w/ pictures of THOSE dead? The answer is simple: people hate Bush for political reasons only & use the so-called “body-count” as an excuse. We as Americans should hold our leaders to task for crimes THAT MATTER – the Social Security/Medicare timebomb, an almost insurmountable deficit/debt crisis, irresponsible Congressional spending, government intrusion into our daily lives (privacy, anyone?) an incomprehensible and bloated tax code, and all the Americans who die preventable deaths… Al Quaida, Iraq, and terrorism are small potatoes in comparison.
I know far more people who’ve been killed in cars than those killed in Iraq or as a result of terrorism.
So be honest here: what ARE the most important issues facing America in this election year? And are any of the candidates focused on those issues? C’mon, give the REAL “George” a good answer…
Now if you could create one out of the over 10,000 Iraqi civilians that we’ve killed since our invasion – that would REALLY drive home the sad reality of war.
You really should credit the creator of the image. It’s Joe from over at American Leftist
Dejah, I link to the source in the post itself. I’m mirroring it here because I think it’s significant and that site has had bandwidth troubles.
In response to “Beau”
Since you bring up the Saddam’s chemical attack on his own people, as a way of deflecting criticism of our moronic President, let me pose some questions :
1) What did Ronald Reagan, as President in 1988, do following Saddam’s gas attack on Halabja? (Answer: He vetoed a bill (The Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988) to impose sanctions on Iraq for its use of chemical weapons.
2) What was Collin Powell (then National Security Adviser) and Dick Cheney (then a Republican congressmen’s reaction? (Answer: Secretary of State Colin Powell orchestrated Ronald Reagan’s decision to give Hussein a pass for gassing the Kurds. Dick Cheney could have helped push the sanctions legislation but did not.)
2) Did George H.W. Bush as Vice President, or as President cut support for Saddam after the chemical attack, and before Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990? (Answer: Classified documents obtained by The New York Times show a long-secret pattern of personal efforts by Bush to support and placate the Iraqi dictator. Repeatedly, when serious objections to helping Hussein arose within the government, Bush and aides following his directives intervened to suppress the resistance. [Frantz and Waas, “Bush Secret Effort Helped Iraq Build its War Machine,” Los Angeles Times, February 23, 1992] .
3) Where was the public outrage of George W. Bush (the current President) at that time (Answer: He wasn’t
outraged, because Saddam was our ALLY at that time).
4) Why use these chemical attacks as a justification for war FIFTEEN YEARS AFTER IT OCCURRED? (Answer: because you need a rationalization to send hundreds of Americans to their deaths)
5) Where was George H.W. Bush’s outrage over the use of chemical weapons against Iranian forces during early 1986? (Answer: He wasn’t outraged).
6) Where was his son’s outrage? (Answer: See #5)
7) Why don’t you mention this in your excoriation of Saddam? (Answer: You probably weren’t even aware of it).
“Comment by Beau — Wednesday April 7, 2004 @ 5:09 pm ”
I wonder if the same person who made this will do one of Saddam Hussein using the faces of all people of Halabja? On March 16th 1988 5,000 innocet civilians, 75% women and children perished in a Chemicla attack ordered by Saddam.”
> It’s interesting that several posts below that seem to be supportive of Bush are inadvertantly comparing Bush to Saddam, Hitler, Milosovic, etc. I believe the Bush is in the same category as these ruthless and single-minded rulers.
Except for the whole genocide thing… Regardless of how bad Bush is/has been at planning and carrying out this war, he doesn’t have evil intentions.
> Bush has not made our country safer, he has not made freedom for anyone.
Not made our country safer? Now, you can argue that our actions have provoked increased hatred (which is a pretty obvious and universal point… you can’t attack someone without making them angry), but he has greatly increased security. And he has brought freedom for the Iraqis…. has he not?
> He has ignored diplomacy, democracy, and has sought to wage war and make his friends rich at every turn.
I don’t think he’s in this for his buddies… is there any evidence of that?
> This war, like all wars since WWII (which was the last *real* war) is all about empire building, and was completely optional and has lined corporate coffers with BILLIONS of our tax dollars, along with the blood of people who are the true patriots – our soldiers.
Completely optional? Well, I assume that you would oppose any military action that is not necessary for the survival of the United States? Then I guess I’ll rest my point.
> The blood is on Bush’s hands and this image brings that point home better than anything I can think of.
Maybe I agree with you… but you’ve gotta put it in perspective.
I find it troubling… the division we have in the U.S. these days. The hatred of Bush is also troubling. I have never seen so much hate. I DID NOT like Clinton one bit but I certainly did not let myself get to the point of hating him. His White House shenanigans didn’t do us any favors, for our young people or for the world outside looking in. IMHO most everything that is being laid at W’s feet to handle now began while Bill was trying to get himself out of hot water… either Hillary or his real estate venture Whitewatergate. Personally, I admire W. for doing what he says he is going to do. He told the Nation that this would take time. It saddens me that when our country (troops) needs our support the most, that political sniping and negativity rule. Our society is the “I want it now” society. Roll in, defeat their army, roll out. It doesn’t work that way. Patience is a virtue and unfortunately a lot of the U.S. is not as virtuous as it once was. So we have been there a year and a Free, Safe, Secure, Democratic society has not been established yet? Oh yeah roll in roll out… In all honesty, look into yourself and ask yourself “how long should it take? How long did I think it would take?” A year is nothing in the big picture. Look at the growing pains our own country is still going through. I am sorry, very sorry for the loss of lives in whatever theater, and my heart goes out to the families and friends of those lost. I really believe it is not for nothing. I heard a letter (email) read on the radio from a Marine, written yesterday 4-8-2004. He said that the Iraqi people are behind them (us). That they cheer them and want to shake their hands when they are out on patrol, and that unfortunately, as it is here in the states, anything good, moral, or pro-U.S. pride or nationalistic is not to be reported… a minority can create a big fuss in the media so that it seems that what we are told and shown in the media is “the norm”. According to his letter the latest Fallujah violence is not the norm. He said they (the Army and Marines) do over 1700 patrol missions a day… A DAY. So yes the problems are there in pockets but for the most part Iraqi’s are starting businesses etc and enjoying what is so new to them… freedom. Lastly, I just saw a graph showing how many new jobs there were in March. Who could have kept a growing economy post 911? Not W, not Bill either. I admire Bush he makes me proud of him for sticking to his guns whereas Bill did not. And George Washington #40 I agree with your post.
I am a Brit. I was and still am againt the war. Bush is a murderer. There has hase been no evidence to support his claims of “wmd” or that Iraq adied in 9/11. This sudden change from “search for WMD to make Arerica free” to “Freeing the Iraqi people” just stink of 1984, where the Party change history at a whim.
And also, I can’t see how attacking Iraq can help keep America safe. If killing thousands of innocent Iraqis, hundreds of soldiers, enflaming violence in the Middle East and creating a new civil war to deal with will keep America and the West safe, then well done George and Tony, I love ya!
Everyone knows that to keep control of an empire and to stabillise it, there needs to be a common enemy for the empire and the citezens to hate and fight against, whether it be eurasia, terrorism or eastasia, I don’t know. guess Bush attacked the wrong enemy.
I am impressed with the low numbers of person’s killed. I am also aware that it seems to be backfiring in that the lownumber of deaths allows each death to be much more personal and thus disturbing.
I wonder why none of the news organizations give a longer historical picture. Months ago a historian on a public radio station talked about the pressure put on Truman by the British to overthrow Iraq. When Britain had to set Iraq free because administrating coloinies had become too expensive, Iraq nationalized it’s oil companies. Britain wanted them back and wanted the USA to stage the coup. Truman refused, but in 1953 Eisenhower, the only Republican I’ve appreciated, ordered the overthrow of the new democracy. The first attempt failed, but the next day the USA operative was successful in getting rid of the Iraq leader.
There must be some 60, 70, 80 year old Iragi people who are aware of our long involvement in Iraq government. It certainly makes this a tinder box. In the mid 60’s it was my father’s opinion that the near East was the most likely spot for the start of the next world war. We need to be very evenhanded in Iraq to forstall the posinbility of a major war. I hope we are not too late. JW
to comment #38,
Iraq DID in fact attack us first. On the evening of March 17, 1987, an Iraqi fighter pilot in a FRENCH plane fired two FRENCH missiles at the frigate U.S.S. Stark in the Persian Gulf. The first Exocet’s warhead, in typical FRENCH fashion, failed to detonate. The second did explode, ripping a ten-by-fifteen-foot hole in the hull. Thirty seven sailors were lost that night. A request was made to two Saudi F-15 fighters in the area to pursue the Iraqi Mirage, but their controllers claimed no authority to allow them to do so.
R. Reagan and G.H.W. Bush responded to this action boldly and decisively. They immediately demanded that the evil, insane, and Hitler-like dictator of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, lauch an investigation to determine the cause of this friendly-fire incident.
And they demanded he apologize, or we wouldn’t sell him any more helicopters or “dual-use” chemical manufacturing equipment for “insecticide”.
Strange as it may seem, I found very few people who remembered this incident at the beginning of Gulf War I, only three years later. By then,everybody knew that Saddam had always been evil. Must have been the damn ‘librul’ media.
Related to comments #17 and 50, I find it ironic that we read references to freedom of speech and “librul” media, when the US military shuts down a Shiite newspaper in Iraq. Were they publishing anti-American rhetoric? Most likely, but what kind of example are we setting for democracy when we silence the critics. Of course, what can we expect when the recorded public comments of a Supreme Court justice are erased by US Marshals (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/09/scalia.tapes/index.html).
George Bush and the entire Halliburton organization deserve to be tried as war criminals. Never have so many greed driven monsters been in the halls of power at one time. They are a disgrace to the honest and proud people of the United States.
I would like to make a small comment here. This may or may not seem obvious to anyone at this point, but the point should be made.
Why is it that Bush supporters do not leave an email address, a name, or a website?
I would like someone to fill in for that. Is it embarassment?
hugely sad pic. “freedom isn’t free” what a brainless comment from an obvious chickenhawk. I can smell them a mile away. love to wave the flag but never swore to carry it.
Veterans For Peace
Why is it that Bush supporters do not leave an email address, a name, or a website? I would like someone to fill in for that. Is it embarassment?
I am a Bush supporter on many issues – including the War On Terrorism and Operation Iraqi Freedom. The fallen men & women died while helping to shape the world into a safer place — attempting to secure the blessings of liberty for others, as was done for Americans centuries ago. Those who have died during the last year will not be forgotten – they are heroes.
And I *did* leave my name, address, and e-mail.
A stark reminder that war isn’t a video game, it is the loss of one person’s life, plus another person’s life, plus another person’s life, plus another person’s life …etc.
Let’s keep partisanship out of this.. You really don’t want to compare the presidencies of Clinton and Bush.. seriously, you don’t.
Now, why do you continue to say that Bush “sticks to his guns” and “does what he says”? Its quite the opposite my friend. Bush said he would use war as a last resort. He did the opposite. Bush declared last May the end of major combat. 80% of the soldier deaths occured since then.
The problem is that too many Americans rely solely on the US media giants for their source of information. The great thing about the internet is that alternative news is easily accessible. IndyMedia , The Independent (UK), and if you like talk radio (alternative opinions of Rush Limbaugh) Air American Radio. I don’t think the American public is as dumb as many foreigners make us out to be. But far too many do nothing else but watch Fox news and CNN all day; eventually ideas like “no way to prevent 911”, “war in iraq is going swell”, and “protesters are unpatriotic” get force fed into your minds, and the same people subsequently come to rehash what they heard on TV here on this blog.
Little David was in his 4th grade class when the teacher asked the children what their fathers did for a living.
All the typical answers came up — fireman, cook, policeman, janitor, journalist, salesman, doctor, garbage man, lawyer, etc.
David was uncharacteristically quiet, so the teacher asked him about his father. “He’s an exotic dancer in a gay cabaret and takes off his clothes in front of other men and they put money in his underwear. Sometimes, if the offer’s really good, he’ll go home with a guy and make love with him for money.”
The teacher, obviously shaken, set the other children to work on some exercises and took David aside, asking, “Is that really true about your father?” “No,” said David, “He works for the Bush
administration, but I was too embarrassed to say that in front of the other kids.”
After all we’ve been thru as a Nation, Isn’t it sad we have to keep doing it again and again…..Bless them all, and those to fall in the future.
What is GW doing on his ranch on “vacation” while there is a hostage situation with 30 hostages representing the Coalition forces, including americans, being taken?
Is this the image you want of a president “doing his job”??
I think not.
Next, while we are talking honestly here about some of these recent issues, I will seek to remind America about the GULF WAR 1 VETERANS.
We need to build Another Wall – next to the Vietnam Memorial (with the names of 58,191 dead and mia) – for the Gulf War 1 Veterans who, every day, are quietly passing away from illnesses acquired from their service in Daddy’s war — as of 2000, over 12,000 deaths….
And yet nobody wants to talk about those Gulf War 1 Veterans.
Where were they on the CNN and main news channels while the drums were beating for war??
HIDDEN. HIDDEN FROM PUBLIC VIEW.
AND BEING DENIED APPROPRIATE MEDICAL CARE BY THE VA AND DOD FOR THEIR ILLNESSES.
BECAUSE IF YOU, AMERICA, REALLY KNEW WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THESE GULF WAR 1 VETERANS,
YOU WOULD NOT HAVE STOOD FOR THIS WAR.
YOUR IGNORANCE AND LIES ARE ASTOUNDING — ESPECIALLY TO THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVED YOUR COUNTRY AND ARE BEING DISRESPECTED IN THE MOST DISGRACEFUL WAY.
FRONT LINE – FOOT SOLDIER VETERANS KNOW WHAT HAPPENED – DETONATING CHEMICAL WEAPONS BUNKERS 12 FOOTBALL FIELDS LONG IN KAMASIYAH WITH WEAPONS THAT SAID “MADE IN THE USA” —
YES, THE USA MADE THEM — AS RUMSFELD MET WITH HUSSEIN, THANKS TO THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION —
AND THESE FRONT LINE SOLDIERS STOOD UNDER THE TOXIC CLOUDS OF BIOLOGICAL WEAPONRY, WEARING T-SHIRTS AND SUNGLASSES, HAVING THEIR PICTURES TAKEN…
ALL HAVE DIED FROM HIDEOUS BRAIN CANCERS FROM THE TOXIC FALLOUT,
AND YOU, AMERICA, IN THE MEANTIME WANT TO “LECTURE” THE PUBLIC ABOUT “SUPPORTING THE TROOPS”???
YOU ARE THE ONES THAT LIE — AND LIE OPENLY AND LIE RIGHT THROUGH YOUR TEETH (WHICH WILL END IN THE BACK OF YOUR THROATS ONE DAY SOON)
ABOUT SUPPORTING YOUR VETERANS.
AS YOU NEVER HAVE — AND THOSE BRAVE GULF WAR 1 VETERANS — 12,000 + AND COUNTING DESERVE TO HAVE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT FOR THEIR SACRIFICE —
A SACRIFICE WHICH YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND.
AND UNTIL YOU REPUBLICANS SEND YOURSELVES TO THE FRONT LINES OF COMBAT AND SEE WHAT WAR IS REALLY LIKE,
I SUGGEST THAT IN THE NEARBY FUTURE WHEN CIVIL WAR BREAKS OUT HERE AT HOME THAT YOU TAKE YOUR KIDS AND YOUR PRO-WAR SELVES AND GET DRAFTED OR ENLIST.
ENLIST BECAUSE YOU LOVE GW SO MUCH AND TRUST HIM.
WELL, IF YOU TRUST HIM SO MUCH, BE OUR GUEST, COURTESY OF GULF WAR 1 VETERANS — GO ENLIST AND COME HOME SICK AND SUFFER THE WAY THEY DID.
THEN MAYBE — JUST MAYBE — YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE CRUELTY OF YOUR IGNORANCE.
— A PROUD GULF WAR 1 VETERAN AND ADVOCATE AGAINST OCCUPATION OF A FOREIGN COUNTRY WHEN WE TAKE AN OATH TO PROTECT OUR LAND HERE AT HOME — NOT TO OCCUPY FOREIGN SOIL.
Allow me to enter the fray with my thoughts.
I make no apology for my support of our President George Bush and his efforts to fight terrorism and to disarm Saddam Hussein.
Let us not kid ourselves with this image, you had a partisan political message that you wanted to espouse and so you did ..at the expense of our brave, men, women, both young and old.
If one of those in your mosaic was a member of my family, I would personally sue anyone I could for the use of their picture, in the furthering of your own political beliefs.
You are not unpatriotic to disagree.
You have a right to say whatever you want to say.
You can speak out against the president of the United States of America, with your falsehoods, half-truths or downright lies.
That is what these brave soldiers, whom you have shamelessly used in your political statement signed up to do.
IF ANYONE IS ANGRY, THEN LET IT BE THEM?..AND THEIR IMMEDIATE FAMILIES.
I think there can be no misunderstanding that our political beliefs are different as well as what it takes for America to survive in these times we live in still I think you?ve got it wrong, and I’m not afraid nor ashamed to speak out about it.
I’ll just not use the pictures of men and women, who JUST MAY NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ESPOUSE!
In fact, let those who are going into harms way, speak out.
Polls have shown us time after time, that our military men/women overwhelmingly support our president and the war efforts??..as well as the majority of American citizens.
You are liberal, which means you are a democrat don’t be ashamed of what you are, even though some of you have tried to escape that mantle still you are liberal and liberals think anyone that believes other than how they believe are stupid and need liberals to think and act for them??.
Where are the families of these brave men and women who have been unwillingly fitted into your liberal leaning ways to make a statement, which they may not have agreed with?
Now, I will address certain comments throughout the posts.
#12 S.W., who must believe that everyone has a right to express themselves and their beliefs and I suppose, supports the shameless depiction of these brave men and women in this picture as though they agree with this argument??yet, he calls someone ignorant, because what they see, read, watch and believe are something different.
Once again, we see the absurdity of the democratic party which is always crying ?we have a right to disagree???.yet when someone does it, they are condemned as ignorant.
S. W., you sound so superior when you tell George, I think it was, ?you might want to crack a book?.
Well, I?ve cracked few of our history books and they are filled with references to ?chinks, spics, kykes, wops, huns and niggers?.
Whether you like it or not, it?s part of history??..unless, of course I?m sure you liberals would love to change it, nonetheless, it?s written.
#20. My friend S. W. again is simply wrongheaded!
No one says you don?t have a right to call yourself an American, QUIT WHINING!
We say you shouldn?t use the images of the dead to condemn a commander in chief, unless you their permission.
You said, ?its not the party, it is the idea that matters. America is not a political party it is an ideal built upon ideas.?
What rock did you crawl out from under?
I believe you insinuated someone was ignorant???.?
There are 2 political parties in America and they are what runs, rules and determines the future of America with THEIR IDEALS.
And you are simply wrong when you write, ?it is an ideal built upon ideas?
No, it is a country, founded and built upon the constitution of the United States.
Good ideals and good debate??.good men and women who are willing to sign up to defend and protect their nation at the command of their commander in Chief.
You must really think that all soldiers are stupid and can?t speak for themselves.
Why not speak about what you know and let them, if they are unhappy and disgruntled speak for themselves?
Quit whining??.no one is ?dismissing your ideals??.aren?t you speaking your piece right now?
We are simply doing what you say we have a right to do??DEBATE THE ISSUES!
You are so condescending with statements ?do it with the brilliance of your thought not the stigma of your label.?
Why is it, that you think everyone is stupid or ignorant that doesn?t agree with you?
Why is it, that you insist they answer your stupidity with brilliance, which you yourself allude to have, by using a few fancy words, yet your argument is filled, simply with your own beliefs?
With dripping sarcasm, I say, ?Wow, your really brilliant to believe that everyone should see life like you do!?
#26. Mr. Brodey, your wrong.
The troops do have a choice, not one of them were retarded when they signed up for the military. THEY MADE THEIR CHOICE AND KNEW THAT POSSIBLY THEY MAY HAVE TO GO AND FIGHT AND POSSIBLY DIE!
You have the audacity to speak about planning a war?
Oh, yes, I?m sure FDR had a contingency plan when we were attacked at Pearl Harbor.
And I?m sure that Presidents Kennedy and Johnson had good plans.
And President Clinton had a good plan when he bombed the baby food factory. (Which I supported him against my republican friends for this action).
The facts are.
Nixon got us out of Vietnam.
George H. Bush got us out of Iraq once and left it in the hands of the United Nations to finish?..WHAT A JOKE!??and silly people want us to put it back in their hands again?..so they can push paper again, while thousands of people die!
All you liberals think there should be some kind of end game for a war??and we are still in Germany??after how many years of planning, work and war?
The fact is, there are just some things you can?t plan.
32. Dan???.how dare you speak for the dead!
Give us proof, that ?our soldiers who died did have questions. Mainly, ?why are we here?.
I CALL YOU A LIAR????.BUT I WILL ASK YOUR FORGIVENESS SHOULD YOU GIVE PROOF OF YOUR STATEMENT!
I anxiously await to read your proof!
#36. If your ashamed move, no one’s stopping you!
Even in our worst days of America? I’ve always been proud to be an American and of the country I live in.
Because we, like no other country in the world, will right our wrongs, though it may take some years and some heartache.
Like no other country in the world we have given to help every nation in the world.
#48. RG, the Brit
We are thankful for your opinion, but we don’t live in Great Britain, we overthrew your tyranny, many years ago.
We are happy being Americans now and I hope you are happy being “Brits”
So let’s keep it that way!
You take care of over there..and we will take care of over here.
Just remember, you would be speaking German, if it hadn?t been for my grandfathers and uncles.
You state “Bush is a murderer”
Please you’ve overloaded on fish and chips and the monarchy?
Yes, if anyone knows how to keep an ’empire’ stable, it should be you guys.
#47. And John, how is it exactly that 9-11 could have been stopped?
And where is it, that it was written, besides by you that war in Iraq is going swell.
I’m sure in the recess’s of a deluded democratic mind but I?m willing to see your evidence unless it comes only from between your ears.
So, is the war wrong?
Depends upon your political leaning.
Is Protesting wrong?
Are those who disagree with the war unpatriotic?
It?s America and we have a right to disagree and speak our piece and that?s what we are doing here??even on this liberal web site, that has shamefully placed the pictures of our dead servicemen in the middle of their own political beliefs without their permission as if those who died would agree, when in fact, I think that the majority of the military would take the opposite opinion if what you have espoused.
Post #23 by Jonas M Luster was extremely moving, and touched me as much as the mosaic does.
Everyone who is posting about “freedom isn’t free” and who mistakenly thinks that things such as this mosaic somehow “hurt” our soldiers should read his post.
Thank you Jonas.
“Freedom isn’t free”
While these men and women are dying in Iraq, we are losing our rights to freedom of assemby, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of religion…
You say that freedom isn’t free. I say, “what freedom?”
If we do not win in Iraq, regardless how we got there, we will have to fight these extremist muslims on our land. Do you want that? The war in Iraq is necessary. Unfortunately men get killed. But, more men and women and children will be killed in *OUR* country if we do not stop these maniacs.
I don’t understand the arguement for ‘freedom’. If Iraq needs freedom, then why not Rwanda during the slaughter there? How about any other countries that have the same issues right now? What about soverignty? Who has the right to decide to invade someone elses ? Unilaterially?
It’s all questions that have an obvious answer.
It made my hair stand on end. The body count numbers don’t make it sink in just how much completely needless suffering there has been, how many families have been torn.
I really liked the mosaic.
I have been building a memorial of my own to the casulties in the Iraq adventure. When I started to work on it, I wanted to make an overtly political statement about the Bush Administration’s foolishness. But I also wanted to build a memorial that would allow those on both sides of the issues to be able to come to it and literally come face-to-face with a part of the cost. Ultimately I have just posted a photo, name, age, unit, hometown and cause of injury for each casulty along with two poems and the title that simply states “In Memory of those who died in Iraq.” I have put it on display at the last three weekly peace vigils in West Hartford, CT and it has been well recieved. My goal is that I would like to have 100 similar ones built and on display across the country by Memorial Day. More about this can been seen at the following two links: http://www.tariffville.org/iraqmemorial.htm and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iraqmemorial . The Yahoo group will shortly have the MS Word file and construction plans. Please view the Group and post a comment there if it is appropriate.
Those who see it bring their own perspective to it …. but …. they must acknowledge it … which should open a crack in the psyche of the pro-invasion viewers where they would need to stop and say “Its sad but it was worth it because … because … now why did we do this again?”
No matter what your personal opinion of our acting Commander in Chief, no matter what your political affiliation, one thing is unchangeable at this point. The pictures depicted here show a very harsh reality. That reality is that every one of those faces, and the responsibility for their deaths, is on the head of one man. Does anyone honestly think that this man sleeps well at night holding that responsebility? Whether or not you like the man, ask yourself this question; Could I make the correct decision given the same circumstances, and would my decision be supported by everyone, or even by the majority of those millions who depend on everything I do. As you critisize his decisions and damn him as a man, ask yourself what resposebilities you take to bed with you at night. How would handle the task of deciding whether you should send american men an women to a foriegn country to fight for “ANY” reason, whether good, bad or indifferent, knowing that untold numbers of them would not be coming back to their families alive? And how would you handle the consequences if you failed to act in this situation and that your failure to act, cost hundreds, thousands, or even millions of lives. It’s quite convienient for you that you have the luxury of sitting back and passing judgement since you are not saddled with that responsebility.
Reagan – Clinton – Bush, no matter which one is, was, or who will be president in the future, there will always be those that dislike them. It comes with the job. But who of you could do it better? And who of you thinks that any person with the desire and ability to be elected president of the United States of America, would take that office without the intention of bettering the lives of americans. Would you? The person in that position shoulders the burden of the problems of every american citizen and is looked to for the solutions. Could any one of you carry that burden. I couldn’t, wouldn’t want to. The last time you screwed up, was the whole world watching and waiting to judge you?
Emotionally devastating. So many young men, women whose families will never see them again.
All for Oil and Israel’s security.
What a waste.
I feel like I’ve been kicked in the stomach.
I haven’t found him yet, but one of my former students is in the mosaic. His name was Josh Hurley, a graduate of Virginia Military Institute, where I teach. It broke my heart to learn that he had died, a very sweet kid who helped finance his education in ROTC, was commissioned, became a combat engineer and died when his Humvee hit a roadside munition. I used to play basketball with him twice a week for nearly three years. Always had a smile on his face, never cursed, never got angry. I have other former students there now and I worry and pray for them all. I supported the war because of the WMD claims, but now we know that it was a big con game. We’ve spent $100 billion, lost over 600 dead and over 3000 wounded and the end doesn’t seem in sight. Sad and infuriating.
In reply to Mr. Paul Lacourse comment number 66. We have radicals of every persuasion in this country as it is. A few more of Muslim, Christian or Purple People Eater bend is not the problem. We have men women and children in this country who die every day at the hand of thier fellow citizens. Thats alright though isn’t it? So long as they were our own and certainly not a muslim or foreinger its just another day at the office. We have problems we refuse to face such as an education system that gets teachers for the lowest bid, cancer, AIDS, homophobia, racism of every incarnation, sexism, fanaticism, and a slew of mind twisting double standards and social pressures that warps our children into striving for some “perfect” that does not exist and not one of those things was imported from Iraq. And, yes I’m going to say it… Niether were the twisted individuals who killed themselves in 9/11 because they believed they were right. Iraq is not the problem. The people whose hearts are twisted by hate are the problem. If we hate them back we become as twisted at them… and then we have truly lost the war. You’re so worried about the women and children here, but you forget that women and children exist and have been killed in Iraq. Oh wait… they’re not ours so its ok, right? Just a sad side effect of War that ~they~ have to deal with and mourn for, right? And on top of that they’re probably not Christian either. So who cares.
Concerning the picture itself: I do not personally see it as a work that points a finger at Bush… though that may have been the intent of the artist. I do not know what s/he intended or what it meant to them. All I know is what I take from it and that is that no matter how you feel about our commander in chief, the use of the images, whatever it is a statement of historical fact. Records are kept of the people who die in war and the date coincide with things like Christmas, Joe Shmoe’s getting a promotion and who happened to be President at the time. Whether the President was wrong or right these men and women who gave thier lives are connected to him and his time as President. Its like me thinking of WWII and not thinking of Hitler and in turn Normandy and by association my grandfather. I see this image as a matter of fact statement of something we have no real contol over. People will think of thier son/daughter/friend/etc. and think “they died doing A and Mr. B was president at the time.” Its not so much about blame as it is about the mark that will be left on history.
What a sad comment……….any one of those people was worth more than 100 bu$hs. God save us!!
AS of April 9, 2004, there have been 753 coalition deaths, 650 Americans, 59 Britons, five Bulgarians, one Dane, one Estonian, 17 Italians, two Poles, one Salvadoran, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and four Ukrainians, accprding to CNN.
George W. Bush has yet to appear at the funeral of any. No proper reception has been given to any of the dead heroes arriving at Dover. The tens of thousands of Iraqis dead aren’t even considered as human deaths by our authorities.
I don’t see any pictures of the relatives of George W., Dick Cheney, Daniel Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, and all the rest of the administration, plus the congress people in the mosaic. Nor of the Democratic Party’s apparent nominee for president. Of course, some of them served in previous wars.
Cut the crap Republicans. If you’re not pissed off, you’re not paying attention. Bush always does the opposite of what he says he’s going to do when it has to do with helping anyone beside his corporate cronies.
G.W.B. says his favorite philosopher is Jesus Christ. Can anyone imagine Jesus whispering into Bush’s ear…”Ok, here’s how you take care of the terrorists…kill them all and don’t worry about the innocent people you kill in the process.”
“And here’s how you help the poor, the sick, and the elderly…bankrupt government social programs by giving outrageously huge tax breaks to the weathiest 1 % of Americans who don’t need it and hope they’ll reinvest it.”
Republicans…you win the award for Head in the Sand.
Signed by a proud liberal ashamed of our appointed emperor who has no clothes. [actually the clothes on his back cost as much as many Americans make in a year. Many of them found themselves in G.W.B.’s war in Iraq because it was the only decent paying job they could find. Do you think his kids will volunteer for the front lines? Can you say class war?]
One final comment. I wasn’t a big fan of Clinton but can anyone seriously tell me that a lie about a blow job that didn’t get anyone killed is worse than the multitude of lies from W. about why we invaded Iraq?
Dear God, please make the Bushies go away.
Many people don’t realize that the 500-600 death count (American soldiers only) EXCLUDES US soldiers who are wounded in Iraq and die later of their wounds. If such Iraq-war casualities were included, the number of deaths would be closer to 1200 American Soldiers.
I think it’s another travesty of the Bush administration that they do not recognize and count those ‘delayed’ Iraqi-caused deaths.
Bush isn’t Republican. He’s Corporatarian.
These are Bush’s corporate One World Order private soldiers, not ours. They do not defend our “freedom”, they do not defend the Constitution and they sure as hell don’t defend our homeland -witness 9/11. They, along with Bush do the bidding of the Illuminati who have always financed both sides of every war including our Revolution. They print our money in their private Federal Reserve Bank and charge interest that will never be paid off–they own every one of us. When they form the “American Union” next year we will all officially be their slaves and will have the same economic, social and political status as any other 3rd world country. Bush and his military have sold all of us out–every General and Admiral has been bought and paid for and no longer have any interest in defending the people of this nation because that does not enter into the equation. Get it?
I am moved by this mosaic; yes, but not in any “patriotic” way! I am insulted that someone thought it in some strange way appropiate to use photos of dead soldiers to compose this soul-less man’s contenance!!! It’s revolting! The blood of these young people is on his hands, and on the hands of all his OWO cronies!
Boys and girls do you duty. You have a choice. Maybe you would like a photo of the three thousand murdered by Bin Laden at the Towers? Wake up America. The President of the United States of America is doing his job. His job is not to roll over and play dead for the Islamics like Clinton did. His job is to protect and defend this nation. The Generals who planned D-Day were willing to sacrifice 10,000 American lives to get a toe-hold in Europe and put an end to Hitler. There is a price to pay. If you won’t pay it, get out of the way and let others do it for you. Those young men and women gave their lives in a noble cause. They hold a place of honor in American history. We will not forget them. May God Bless and Protect America.
Should have used pictues of dead babies in Iraq. Then they could have made portraits of the whole administration.
Strange there are no children of the policy makers among the dead in Iraq…Even Al Gore served in Viet Nam. And Iraq is turning out to be yet another Viet Nam. Don’t we ever learn? if the US troops withdrew and were assigned to make the USA impervious to attack (9/11/01) the cause would be better served. When the Sunni and the Shiites are joining forces, having been enemies forever, against the USA, then we must withdraw. And do it NOW before more Americans pay with their lives for Bush’s re-election war.
To all those pointing out Saddam’s use of chemical weapons against the Kurds:
Do a little research. You may be surprised to find out which country (and political party) helped put Saddam into power, armed his regime, provided the “crop-spraying” helicopters….and then after the atrocites, vetoed a UN resolution that sought to condemn the chemical attacks.
I am an Arab and I am grateful for George Bush administration for showing the Arab and Muslim world the true face of imperialism. This is not about spreading democracy in a third world country. It is simply greed and colonialism.
Many years ago, my grandfather (who fought in WWI) told me only old men should fight wars. Then the old politicians would be reluctant to send soldiers into battle. It is so sad that so many young men and women have died because an old man (George W.) was obsessed with finishing something an older man (George H.W.) started. It is even sadder that the resolution of this mosaic is certain to improve as the situation in Iraq degrades.
Somebody wouldn’t be editing the comments to take down the ones that excoriate the producer of this mosaic, would they? Naw, that would be childish. Surely he is so firmly on the side of God and the angels (or deity or non-deity of your choice) that there could be no better proof of it than to let dissenting opinion stand so that everyone can see how wrong the whiners are?
This isn’t democraticunderground, right?
Bush is a realist – He understands that “Peace” is the woerse enemy of the United States Government. With peace
at hand what would happen to all the Bases and the Military Personel around the world, not to mention the so called Defence Industry. Let’s be realistic, the only reason for being in Irak is Oel. I fail to understand how any
person, specially christians can vote for such a despicable cretin. You cannot not fight terrorists with conventional armys, period.
The best of intentions don’t mean a thing unless put into action. Everyone would like to see more liberal govenments in the middle east , especially in Iraq considering their political history, but how is this communicated to the people when their movements are restricted, they are arrested with no charges being laid for months before being released with no explanation about why they were arrested in the first place, and a government with a majority of politicians who were exiles for 20-30 years and largely unknown to the citizens . The previous way of governance(excluding Saddam) cannot just be torn down and replaced that easily because it is a reflection of the culture as a whole. Governments do not shape the character of the people, more so in democratic societies as the polititians activley court the populations support , but are reflections of common culture and community. We can’t be speaking to the iraqi people about freedom if we are also killing their women and children. How would you feel in their position?. How can they trust that we really want to help them?. If the deaths of 3000 americans is a day of mourning for the world, how can the deaths of over 10,000 CIVILIANS( not including iraqi soldiers or insurgents or the wounded) , be considered a liberation by the people who still suffer the casualties of that freedom?.
My oldest son-not yet 21-fought in Operation Iraqi Freedom. He told me when he got home: “Dad, it’s a stupid war, on behalf of an ungrateful people.” Please, please, please join me in bringing change to America in November, 2004. Keith Hubbard, Boones Mill, VA
“Does it take a death to learn what a life is worth?” Jackson Browne
Those men died so all of you would have the right to complete about our great president’s polices. Let’s see if the person who created this has the guts to create one of Saddam out of all the Iraqi’s that he killed or one out of Bin Laden made up of the 9-11 victim’s. Wake up and smell reality all you liberals!!!!
Amercian Bad Ass meant to say “complain” instead of “complete” but was completely right!!
For those of you who agreed with this mosiac and disagree with Bush’s polices, look at this website:
http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html Now are you awake????
“Our great president’s polices”
His policy was to lie to the world about weapons of mass destruction that do not exist.
His policy was to break UN Resolution 1441, and invade Iraq after they disarmed.
The reality is 670 Americans are dead, for a war that’s end did not justify its means.
Means : “And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein’s support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.” – George Bush http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030322.html
End: No weapons were found or destroyed. The people of Iraq are not free in their own democracy, and Saddam Hussein never supported the terrorist groups who attacked the United States.
Yes, Saddam did kill, yes Saddam did maim, but two wrongs will never make a right, and this war was wrong, because lying is wrong and breaking UN Resolutions is wrong.
I am not an American. I’m from Northern Ireland, which over the years has sickened me by the way a tiny minority of narrow-minded, uneducated, prejudiced idiots have managed to project the image to outsiders that my country is infested with stupidity, just because it is they who make the most noise. What I see from America, a country which I hold very dearly in my heart, a mecca (oops!) for all things cool, free and righteous, is that you guys are now suffering from the same problem, albeit on a much larger scale, and one that could bear devastating consequences to both your own country and to everyone else’s. Let me tell ya if you can’t already see- Good ol’ U.S. of A is no longer the land of the free. By that I don’t mean to offend, I’m just stating a fact which, thankfully, most Americans already know. Don’t believe me? One word- Florida. Ring any bells?
Yes, you CAN indulge in open, honest debate, but that privlege is not exclusive to Americans. From Canada to Cameroon, from Japan to Jordan, from Iceland to Israel, people sit in cafes and bars openly voicing their opinions.
And its a free world to do so, so long as you dont rattle the cages of THE POWERS THAT BE. Governments everywhere try to influence their people. Its what keeps their wheels a-turning. But when they wield unlimited money, power and influence on their country’s media, this is known in the business as PROPAGANDA, a nasty ailment thats very difficult to cure.
So be good Americans, stand up for what your country is supposed to represent to the rest of the world, dont
be complacently fooled into thinking yours is the only free country in the world- cos it’s slipped way down the
rankings. I dont care too much for politics, but I’d hate to see Bush and his band of greedy, brainwashing corporate facist cowboys get re-elected, cos I dont think America or the world could stomach another four years of their lies.
So when you vote, do what you see right, but dont trust electronic voting machines. They tried them in Ireland and there was uproar cos they’re so easy to scam, and we know who’ll be the ones to turn it to their advantage!
May democracy prevail in November, and God bless (The real) America!!!
In the Agatha Christie book, Ten Little Indians, (also titled “And Then There Were None”) various profiles of murderers are given. 10 of them, in fact. Each committed a different ‘style’ of murder. One of the murderers was a veteran of World War I….. and the person he murdered was a soldier serving under him. He sent him into battle into a situation that was impossible for him to escape. Nobody suspected it was murder- nobody KNEW that the young man had been having an affair with his wife… but Agatha Christie, back in the 1920s, when the book was written, classified the unnessary sacrifice of a man in wartime as a MURDER.
So do I. These men were murdered; for gain, and profit. I believe Agatha Christie would agree.
In her novels, the murderer is always found out and exposed; I believe real life will catch up with Bush in this way also.
Also, those that say “look at how many people died in World War I! World War II! Vietnam!” You’re just rationalizing. A death is a death is a death… and they are all unavoidable, and unexcusable. CNN did a story last week on 5 soldiers who were recently killed at age 18…. do you think that because 40,000 soldiers died at age 18 in vietnam, we ought to wipe out the equivalent number, just to equal that total? Do you think it makes it ANY less horrific to the families of those 5 soldiers?
No… all life is precious. All unnecessary death is wrong, and lamentable.
And to those of you who DO compare this war to vietnam, know that it is starting out exactly like Vietnam did. The first three years of vietnam saw only 300 fatalities… and then escalated… and escalated… We have already passed the mark of 3 years in Vietnam. War is seductive.
Another thing proving war is seductive is the fact that we might have avoided World War II altogether if Theodore Roosevelt had not pushed so hard for an unconditional surrender from Germany after world war I. We were so angry at them, so upset, and so intent on making them PAY…. (What Teddy Roosevelt was urging) that when they offered peace talks in 1917 we wouldn’t have it. No, we had to CRUSH THEM AND THEIR ECONOMY. Which lead, of course, to deep depression, financial crisis, and… the rise of Hitler.
No war is unavoidable. World War II wasn’t, but we were so stupid, we decided to push the German people down so low that they couldn’t really get back up again… without following the dreams of a madman. Whoops- hello Atomic bomb and nuclear age.
Perhaps it would have been more appropriate if this had been the image of SH or OBL ?
It is a shame people should waste their time compositing political attacks at the expense of others.
Just one word to the guy who is talking about halabja. Go and ask Rumsfled who gave saddam the capability of chemical weapons and the green light to use them the way he wants and against anyone he dislikes. Maybe you will be disappointed and then surprised to know the answer !! saddam was just the actor who played halabja and others scenes, the real criminals were his producers and directors !
This is particularly saddening for me, as one of the people in the mosaic (2nd row from top, 15th from the right) was a friend and classmate of mine, Matthew Milczark of Moose Lake Minnesota. And if a new one is made, with more faces added, yet another friend and classmate of mine will be included in that mosaic too.
How long will this keep going on?
(1) What evidence is there that the photos in the montage are actually photos of members of the military who were killed in Iraq?
(2) What are the sources of the photos?
(3) If the photos are genuine, did the publisher obtain permission to publish the photos? If not, why not? If so, from whom?
(4) It is noted that there are far more photos than there are casualties. This is deceptive. Why the deception?
Lastly, a comment: If the photos that are not duplicated to fill out the picture actually are those of casualties, this is an example of the extremes to which some will go, regardless of the pain that they might inflict, to assert a political point. Those who are responsible for its publication should be, but I think are not, ashamed. There are some in our society who believe that, so long as they are righteous, can, without censure, do anything at all — however distressing to their victims.
Pictures are from here I think: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
Very good work. It moved me to tears. GWB will not be getting my vote.
71 – wake up
I’m an Israeli – I still remember the first gulf war and the scud missles that landed in here during one month.
your argument of entering this war for protecting Israel is thick, ignorant and deluded.
Let the reasons of entering gulf war I be what they may – the patriot missles America posted here is gratefully
what helped us defand against that …but let me remind you that iraqui attacks on Israel started after the war began.
Now don’t get confused…let me remind you or anyone who may aggree with you that world terror/Al quaida has allready became a well established reality all over the world –
Remember september 11th? the terror acts in Indonesia ? the bombing in Madrid last month?
no more blaming the Israeli – palestinian conflict on any attrocity that strikes the world.
88 – as a former soldier in the army – I couldnt agree with you more
I think using the dead to make a picture/political statement is pretty tasteless and trivializes their families suffering, however I believe the question Why Did We Go To War In Iraq?is a valid one that should be examined more closely. Here are the reasons I’ve heard, first 3 are the official reasons given by the US & UK governments.
Number 1. 9-11 / defeating ï¿½terroristsï¿½There is absolutely no evidence that Iraq was in any way linked to AL Quida. In fact there’s a lot of evidence, from speeches by Bin laden himself to views expressed by people familiar with the region that Al Quida and Saddam Hussein were mortal enemies. Bin Laden wants to have a strict Islamic nation, and dictators, esp. ones who are “western” and suppress Islam in their own countries are definitely the antithesis of that. Additionally Bin Laden wants more of the wealth of a these countries to go to the general population, rather than a handful of “westernized” strong men, as was the case in Iraq with Saddam (and which is also the case in many countries in the middle east). Please understand, I’m not trying to justify Bin Laden, but its important to understand that there’s NO CONNECTION what so ever between 9-11 and Iraq.
Additionally, there’s very little evidence to suggest that there was any terrorists supported/present in Iraq under Sadaam. Again, I’m not trying to justify Sadaam, just explain the situation.
Unfortunately, for every innocent Iraqi bystander killed by the US in Iraq, there’s a pretty potent seed of hate towards the US and other “coalition” countries being sown. If anything, this leads to the world being less of a safe place (at least for US/Europeans/Japanese) than before the war. Our actions in Iraq are creating terrorists where there previously were none.
To get back to the main point, just about anyone familiar with the region knows that there’s no links between terrorism and Iraq, so this can’t have been the reason.
Number 2. WMD As it now turns out there were no WMD in Iraq, but this couldn’t be guaranteed before the war. However, enough other countries, from Iran and Pakistan to North Korea HAVE WMD, so its remains a mystery why these weren’t also attacked? Of course, now that the actual “evidence” that was used to justify WMD claims is being exposed as seriously tenuous at best, one has to conclude that WMD wasn’t the main reason why we went to war.
Sadaam’s a bad guy, OK everyone knows hes a complete evil psycho, but he’s not unique in this. Evidence from Putin’s brutal suppresion in Chechnia to Kim Ill Sung starving the North Korean people prove this. So the reason for invading Iraq can’t be just Sadaam.
Here are another couple I’ve heard form various sources
Revenge for Bush seniors “defeat”? Bush Sr. set out to do what he wanted to do (free Kuwait), and although he had to deal with Sadaam then hurling insults at him after wards, I don’t believe this could have been a motive for taking whole countries to war (at least I hope to hell it wasn’t).
Oil I don’t know enough about the world oil situation to judge this, there may be some validity to this argument. If this is the case I just wish that they’d have said ï¿½Hey everyone, if we can’t get cheap oil, our economy will crumble and you’ll all be unemployed and the country will go to hell so we have to go to war to protect our interestsï¿½. This would have been easily understandable and would have made the reason clear from the beginning. I should point out I don’t see anything particularly objectionable about this, without oil western economies would go down the tubes and people in modern industrialized countries (of which I am one) standard’s of living would dramatically decrease. However, if this is the reason then I really hate being lied to and treated like a numbskull (see first three reasons listed above).
Maybe access to cheap oil isn’t the reason, and there’s some other explanation (maybe Bush/Blair just wanted to go down in history for having done something?).
Anybody have any other suggestions (and, please no aliens/UN black helicopters/ Jewish conspiracy theory crap).
Very creative. How moving. Photoshop and a mosaic of photos apparenty used as an oblique indictment of the president.
At 160×200, the number of PIXELS in this photo represents close to the number of American casualties in southeast Asia during the last four years of the Johnson administration. If LBJ had attended each of those funerals for one hour, sequentially, that time would amount to four straight years.
Now, some would try to make an image of President Bush with a mosaic of the 3,000 killed in the 9/11 attacks.
Any meat eaters out there? PETA would probably make a beautiful likeness of your own face from images of the thousands of slaughtered cows that you’ve ingested.
Oh, that eeeevil president with his greedy motives: blood for oil, tax breaks for the wealthy while millions of poor American kids starve to death, taking away all of our privacy, and exporting millions of high-paying phone sales jobs. So many causes out there. Let’s see some really creative photos now, folks – perhaps naked bods on hillsides spelling out slogans denouncing imperialism.
So many people could do a much better job as president without putting American soldiers’ lives at risk for “nothing.” The whole world hates us, or wants us dead, for not leaving those harmless, misunderstood, despotic regimes alone. And the United Nations has done such a wonderful job dealing with them.
We’d be so much better off if only we played nice, didn’t “put those murderous regimes in power in the first place,” rolled over and exposed our bellies, and listened to the campus intellekshuls who study such things and know what’s best for us.
Wake up to your OWN conscience. Stop being “moved” from your center by contrived images, and start being motivated by your own Creator-endowed common sense. Start with how you react to the fascist regimes within your own family. If everybody did, NOBODY would be subject to the Saddams, the Osamas and the Hitlers.
What peace and freedom that would be.
Now you need one for Conde Rice, and Dick Cheny
Just a comment on the creation of the mosaic: Nobody spent thousands of hours carefully arranging pictures, nor is there any deception intended by the duplication of some images. Mosaic images like this are created by a program which analyzes the desired picture for color, brightness, etc., then picks images out of a collection supplied to it which match the color values of that part of the source image. There clearly weren’t many images that were mostly white — primarily some black-and-white photos — so there’s a lot of duplication in Bush’s collar. On the other hand, there were a lot with much the same skin tone as Bush, so there’s a lot more variety on his face. Nothing mysterious or sinister about it.
There used to be a lot of big talk from the right about being responsible for your actions.
So why are these GOP monsters passing on the cost of their war to a generation that
hasn’t been born yet? The responsibility talk must have been nothing more than a way
to convince stupid shallow people to vote for them. It worked. It will work again in November.
I am very sorry that soilders died and I pray for the families of the lost love ones, but these soilders have faith in there missions and died for our freedom present and future. Yes I support the President in this war and even if they never find any weapons of mass destruction it was still worth going in and taking Saddam and his VERY evil sons out or out of power. Any one that is trying to act like a hippie from the 60’s and 70’s need to get a life and a job and stop spending time slamming our President with this mosaic. I don’t think anyone can fatham what it takes to run a country and protect the very freedom you take for granted.
Here are the names behind those faces…
“There have been 777 coalition deaths, 674 Americans, 59 Britons, five Bulgarians, one Dane, one Estonian, 17 Italians, two Poles, one Salvadoran, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and four Ukrainians, in the war as of April 12, 2004. The list below reflects the names of the soldiers, Marines, airmen and sailors whose families have been notified of their deaths by each country’s government. There have been 3,269 U.S. troops wounded in action, according to the Pentagon…”
I have a cynical yet probably very realistic vision of George W. Bush snorting cocaine during his supposed National Guard service, and tapping his toes merrily to the Kinks’ song “Some Mother’s Son” on the album “Arthur”……..”and all dead soldiers look the same….”.
If there is a God, George W. Bush, you do not stand in very good favor with Him or Her or They. “I know real christians, Mr. Bush, and you are not a real christian.”.
Bush is the first responsible for the deaths of all these soldiers
don’t you think Saddam was only a decoy to grab iraqi oil to hide the need to conquer an important political and geographical area of the middle east?
you have got a very large visibility having been link to the homepage of a major italian newspaper
see if this blog can receive comments to see what other nations think of US at war
Like the victims of 9-11, seeing the faces of the young men and women who have died in Iraq (almost wrote VietNam) makes them all the more real to me. They’re just not names anymore; they’ve become sons, daughters, husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers, cousins and I grieve for them all.
This is utterly ridiculous. Lame
since you proved to be so good at math, it might ALSO be worth mentioning, that if you take the pictures of all the soldiers and civilians from other countries and the iranians who have already died you can probably build 30 or 40 faces.
Maybe Dubya Bush would like to be in his ranch right now. Completely Drunk. Maybe he’s a good men. Maybe he’d like to go back to fix things of his life. Maybe he doesn’t want anymore to be the president.
He’s the son. Coming after the Father.
Do you realize USA is like a third world country (where the political power is transmitted as a dynasty)?
USA is simply an oligarchy masked as democracy.
And Kerry is the expression of the same oligarchy.
May God have mercy of you, American people. Your future is so dark…
Good picture. Anyway, Dear American People you are living the war conflict consequences; so stop now your crazy president please.
I am Italian and we must stop his toilette man (Berlusconi); yesterday I have read BIBLE CODE 2 – Countdown written by Michael Drosnin a very disturbing book. America and Europe people have to change its political world actions ASAP in order to avoid an apocalypse.
why don’t make the same mosaic with the photos of the people killed by saddam? guess you need some web space, but with some millions of photos you can do a pretty nice job.
oh, but maybe you’re not able to find the photos.
such a pity.
Fodder. that’s what anyone who volunteers for, or is some day drafted into the armed services has become, in the minds of those who make military decisions for this, or any country. This country is founded on ideals? Get real. The day that progressives realize that complaining about their government’s failure to live up to “American Ideals” is about as useful as waiting for pigs to fly, we’ll all be ready to really effect changes. What are we really complaining about, in terms of the Iraq adventure? I, for one, of course wish that our country would be willing to stand on its own feet, economically speaking, without feeling the need to steal resources from others around the world. The US has had a policy of stealing resources since its inception. Oh yeah, the price of gas would go up, and the giant pretense of credit-based affluence would go up in smoke, forcing “ordinary Americans” to finally face the facts that Jimmy Carter tried so bravely to point out 25 years ago: the world must be allowed to attain economic parity, and that necessarily means that Americans will eventually not be living like kings relative to everyone else.
make a picture with people from Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, Perù, Ecuador, Colombia, Uruguay, Bolivia etc etc and for the scope choose any american president (toghether with his american soldiers) from any period of the usa history.
We fought Iraq over oil? If that’s the case, why doesn’t Bush just blow the whole middle east apart? Saddam aided the terrorists, don’t kid yourselves!!! Those who died in Iraq willing joined our armed forces knowing this possibilty existed. You insult their memory by pushing your anti-bush, anit-war agenda. what an insult to them by posting their faces like that.
Our President is a christian and he is a good man. The majority of the military respects him greatly! This so called mosiac is done in very poor taste and with too many faces. We have not lost that many people!
Maybe there should be a collage of the faces of the people of the world that these brave souls
sacrificed their lives to protect!! Don’t you people get it? This is war to protect your sorry asses
and these people and their commander deserve your respect.
peace in the world!
pace nel mondo!
paix dans le monde!
Although completely suppressed in the U.S. media, the answer to the Iraq enigma is simple yet shocking. The upcoming war in Iraq is actually an OIL CURRENCY war. The Real Reason for this upcoming war is this administration’s goal of preventing further OPEC momentum towards the euro as an oil transaction currency standard. However, in order to pre-empt OPEC, they need to gain geo-strategic control of Iraq along with its 2nd largest proven oil reserves. (This is a long essay). If you are interested read it in detail at: http://stlouis.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=4710&group=webcast
All we are saying
is give peace a chance
Why put Bush’s mug in it? he is the one who sent them over to be killed.
I don’t like looking at his beady eyes.
Wake up! The world isn’t perfect and if we keep to ourselves and pretend that we live in this great peaceful world, then we will still have attacks on us. Many people in other countries don’t like the way we live and we will have more attacks just like 9/11 or the USS Cole. We could be like Clinton and turn our heads the other way. My husband is a Marine and chose to go to Iraq and I am very proud of him.
Bush sent them over there to give YOU your freedom!! Most of those men respected Bush!
Unfortunately, if you used the pictures of iraqians women and children killed by that man, you would not need to use more than once a single picture.
Maybe a mosaic of the 3000+ who died on or due to 9/11 making an image of Osama. But then that would not be a cut at W, so why bother.
Every life is sacred, every death a tragedy. Goofy. I doubt you will mourn over Adolph. And what threat was Nazi Germany to the US when we went to war with them? FDR very much had Germany in his sights well before we declared war on them; a bit like W and Iraq. W simply should have said so and let people debate that issue. I think he got bad advice on that one.
The Fallujans are a threat in that if they scare off the tremulous hand wringers in America, they will accomplish the same thing as the Beiruti’s who blew up our Marines, the gang who blew up the Cole and Khobar Towers, who blew up our embassies (and killed LOTS of black africans, but then who cares if they die) and who chased us out of Somalia – they become convinced that we are rubber kneed and that they will prevail. We have been at war with these clowns since 1972 (remember Munich?). About time we actually fought back.
They will continue to attack us, a war is unevitable- so should we have fight the war here on our soil, would that make you happy???
It is not correct, with the 15.000 dead iraqeni, would have succeeded in also composing the face of Cheney and the whole Bush administration
Unfortunately, however, of the civil corpses iraqeni we don’t even have the photos.
To us, Western, they doesn’t interest.
Sicuramente non si può giocare con le vite di quei ragazzi morti, in una guerra di BUGIE e MENZOGNE, in una guerra che è stata voluta mandando militari a combattere per liberare un popolo che non vuole essere “LIBERO”… , solamente perchè la “LORO LIBERTA'” è un concetto che non riusciamo a capire. Abbiamo mandato migliaia di militari per poter controllare il PETROLIO Iracheno… Altro che armi di distruzione.
BUSH A CASA…. BERLUSCONI A CASA.
Truly moving. And to those who answered with the usual drivel about the importance of “fighting terrorism,” let me point out that Iraq and Saddam Hussein had precisely NOTHING to do with terrorism in general or 9/11 in particular. NO Iraqis were on those planes, NO link was ever adduced between Iraq and al-Qaida, and NO (repeat after me — NO NO NO NO) weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq. In fact, the war was and is nothing more than a distraction from the REAL war against terrorism. And I think I know whereof I speak; I work in the US Intelligence Community.
If one was to make the mosiac out of the Weapons of Mass Destruction Found we would have a blank picture.
I am sure almost everyone would agree that Saddam Hussein needed to be moved from his position of power. However, the true Texas gunslinger American way prevailed… Screw diplomacy… shoot first then find the incriminating evidence.
to the people that are happy to be able to speak their minds in a “free country”, to the people witing for a “saddam photomosaic”, to all the people in the US in general, I say: yes, you are free to speak your mind, at least so it seems, but have you ever thought that all the people in the world that cannot speak and is killed or exiled because of the way they think or speak is killed and busted by people the CIA itself put in their places of power? and it’s not late history, it’s like this since WWII. remember the legally elected president Allende, assassinated by CIA money because he was a “communist”, think about who put the money to allow Saddam Hussein in charge of iraq, think of who was playing golf with bin laden’s father in his ranch, think about cambodia, somalia, ustica in italy, the “GLADIO” plan, “P2” in italy, the “desaparecidos” in south america, the contras in nicaragua, vietnam, think about John Lennon, Martin Luther King, think about the junk you eat in the US, think about the new energy sources nobody wants developed, think about ex jugoslavija, did I mention vietnam? enough of common places one last word. think about why most of the people in the whole world, before realizing the tragedy of the deaths in 9-11, and mourning after that, shouted in the first moment “hurray, at last THEY get their deaths at home too”. it’s unhappy, and it’s tragic, all those lifes lost, but remember when you say that you are free to speak your mind that after all you are only free just as long you don’t harm the power that shuts up us all in the world with the iron fist, it would shut you ap too if you were a real danger to the empire. this is all family business going on here, and we, the people, the world people, don’t count ANYTHING as long as we just speak. try doing something real and THEN come forward and say you are free…
the picture is amazing, moving and meaningful. A+
I think saddam hussein was to be moved from his position of power no more than the real threat to world security Goerge W Bush, and also, IMHO, the United States of America have been the most dangerous threat to world peace since WWII so far. the US have fought the nazis and the japanese empire during that war, and in the 50 years after they just learned from their enemies, especially the nazis, and put into practice what they learned. ANYTHING that happens in the world that is truly against freedom has the CIA involved somehow, EACH and EVERY THING.
to the guy who posted “all we are saying is give peace a chance” I say: I was in union square on october 2001 and at a peace demonstration a guy popped up with a huge sign saying: “give war a chance”. this is US for me, US people have a “not so clearly voted” criminal coward in charge, no surprise they turn their looks away from that looking for criminals abroad…
When Saddam was at war with Iran and killing Iraqi Curds, the USA well supported him and fuelled the war (and Rumsfeld cordially paid a visit to his ally..).
When Iraq is in peace and weakened by years of sanctions, USA bombs, invades, fuels another war, creates chaos and devastation in order to take control of a sovereign country with 11% of the world oil reserves…
Well done Lords of Wars and UNITED STATES OF GREED keep making profit out of other people’s misery but be careful you don’t choke one day in your own dollar arrogance!
On the same note… Bin Laden was once allied by the U.S. This was back when Russia was the enemy…
War on a sovereign state will only spark more anti-war movement. As GWB should have noted before sending our troops off to this ‘venture’ we were acting alone. After the 9-11 strike America had sentiments from other nations that were not necessarily seen as ‘friends’. Over the past year feelings and sympathies of other countries have dramatically changed. We are no longer viewed as an innocent party.
Revenge on the wrong party is how I would describe the Iraq conflict. Iraq did not have the power nor the money to support the Taliban. In retrospect Bin Laden has more money in his wallet than the whole Iraq Nation has in savings.
Could this be a ploy for reelection? Who would vote G.W.B out of office in the middle of a conflict?
Maybe it is time that America wakes up and realizes that these soldiers have died for Israeli interests in the Middle East. There is no way that Iraq posed any kind of threat to the United States. But not so for Israel. The United States has been taken over by Israel.
Looking at this image, I have the same feeling I had when I saw the Viet Nam Memorial in Washington. A terrible feeling of loss grips me, and I say, “A loss of life – for what?” These men were to be the future leaders of tomorrow, and now they are gone.
In my language: poveraccio
In Engligh : poor man. he is too stupid to understand what life mean
mr bush: “something essentially vulgar and meanspirited in politics”
Saddam Hussien posed no immediate threat to the United States or its allies, but George Bush choose to wage war and because of his actions those soldiers are dead.
Add to the mosaics those innocent Iraqe people, including children who died and got crippled during this unnecessary war.
For every atrocity that Saddam Hussein perpetrated on his people, I could cite a U.S. equivalent, like Wounded Knee.
For every atrocity that Osama bin Laden perpetrated on New York or anywhere else, I could cite a U.S. equivalent, like Dresden.
Stop supporting our pitiful excuse for a president….just because he’s never read about past U.S. injustices doesn’t mean he hasn’t got the motive or opportunity or the weaponry to carry out mass murder. If you want to start citing scripture, ye mindless neocons, don’t throw stones at Saddam while your own president resides in a glass house of your and his making.
I hope American people to find the courage to see through Bush administration lies and face the disturbing truth: they’re deep involved in 9/11 attacks, they were the ones that supported Saddam’s Kurds genocyde, they are planning (years now!) this terrible scenario in the interest of the very few… We’re all in this together, so DO something!
My retarded neighbor can make a mosaic of anybody’s face with those pictures so, what does this prove? What is the purpose? Does it solve anything? No, its just meant to stir up emotions and cause a negative response from all of the sheep out there that that are too DUMB to think for themselves so they take the easy road and follow everybody else.
People this is an election year and that is what motivates this kind of stuff. Wake up, think for yourself, make informed decisions and instead of bitchen and posting BS pictures let your vote speak. Simple, STOP crying and sniveling like a bunch of babies and stop the finger pointing and let your voices be heard. (REGARDLESS OF YOUR POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS). GOD BLESS AMERICA where we STILL have the FREEDOM to speak out and be heard. AMERICA is STILL the GREATEST country in the world and I am proud to be an AMERICAN.
I served (2) tours in Nam and know firsthand what it is like to be behind the 8 ball of an administration that ties your hands. But I did my time for this GREAT country and am STILL PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. HOOYA!
People wake up and stop listening to all this cry baby B.S. Its a shame that these people had to die BUT their lives should be celebrated and they should be revered as HEROS not remembered as statistics.
E’ un’immagine impressionante ma purtroppo vera!
We must be grateful to this soldiers who died for our freedom in this terrible war against the evil of mulsmim religion
*Mr Bush, how can you sleep at night? *
GIVE PEACE A CHANCE (already heard those words???…hmmm strange…:-S)
I think President Bush is a nightmare scenario for the American people and for all the world, too.
Purtroppo la logica della guerra e’ oggi vincente in politica. Visto che il Presidente degli Stati Uniti puo’ decidere per il resto del mondo allora voglio avere diritto di voto. Voglio votare per le presidenziali americane.
Un cittadino italiano.
Let’s really hope that American people open their eyes and push him back to his ranch in Texas !! (from Italy)
I think that war is always the worst thing to do, this world needs peace! Because there’s real people that die and the president don’t care so much about this, politics never care about the peolple but always for their own interests.
message n.8 says “look History channel instead of Mtv”, I say read some books…
I really hope that american citizens will look back in their recent history and understand that most of wars of the last 50 years were made by americans, directly or indirectly. Think about Cile, Panama, Nicaragua, Iran, Corea, Vietnam.
What is freedom? Freedom could be everything but for sure it is not oil and dollars.
There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted
motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration of
totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that
one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings
of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any
means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely
against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule
condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defence of western
I saw information about this mosaic in the site of italian newspaper La Repubblica. I made a link at once. I interpret this mosaic as a homage to the brave soldiers of United States who have died in Iraq. Now we know the business scandal about the mercenaries that are in Iraq. Some of them are in hostage. Why does Paul Bremer prefer to his personal defense the 450 operative guards of Blackwater security consulting? This is an outrage to american soldiers.
as tacito said: they made a desert and called it peace. stop war
if you kill a lot of people you’re called “seral killer”. What about soldiers?
If those pictures are true, I miss in that mosaic the Spanish soldiers and journalists assasained in Iraq, 192 people killed in Madrid 11-M, the Spanish policeman died when terrorist blew themselves up, all the Iraquian civilians perished under US bombs. THEY HAD NO CHOICE, THEY HAD NO CHANCE.
SPANISH SOLDIERS BACK HOME, SOON!
che tristezza. sadness. sadness. sadness. Bush & Berlusconi, together hey can go to war. but without anyone else
the people who died in the iraq war were serving their country. not bush.
I’m Italian, but I’m afraid to see so many soldiers died only to satisfy the mania for conquest of a mad man. I hope this could be a lesson for all people that like power and conquest. Already many italian soldiers died, we hope this war could finish without other useless corpses.
Sono morti anche per consentirti di fare queste cose da uomo libero. Lasciali in pace.
Io mi chiedo come può dormire una persona che ha mandato in guerra dei soldati con delle prove false. Prima hanno armato Saddam e finanziato per i loro scopi, e poi hanno mandato dei soldati per abbatterlo.
If those pictures are true, I miss in that mosaic the Spanish soldiers and journalists assasained in Iraq, 192 people killed in Madrid 11-M, the Spanish policeman died when terrorists blew themselves up, all the Iraquian civilians perished under US bombs. THEY HAD NO CHOICE, THEY HAD NO CHANCE.
SPANISH SOLDIERS BACK HOME, SOON!
This is disgusting…people like you deserve to live under Saddam
People like me? Oops! I am defending life neither dead nor Saddam.
You are The Disgusting One.
SPANISH SOLDIERS BACK HOME, SOON!
Caro Stefano……questa è l’America, o per meglio dire, questo è l’opulento occidente, dove qualsiasi cosa si faccia, la si fa in nome del mercato e della propria convenienza….altro che democrazia…altro che libertà….buffonate da bacheca; parole di cui la gente si riempie la bocca perchè non ha altre argomentazioni serie a difesa dei propri misfatti. Ci si dimentica poi molto spesso che democrazia significa anche e soprattutto garanzia di vita per tutti e non, come credono i padroni della guerra, libertà di fare i propri porci comodi a scapito delle minoranze; questa non è democrazia ma POTERE!!!
Our President is a christian and he is a good man. The majority of the military respects him greatly! This so called mosiac is done in very poor taste and with too many faces. We have not lost that many people!
Comment by Lacy
Se il presidente americano è un cristiano allora il 99,99999999% della popolazione mondiale andrà all’inferno….eccetto lui, naturalmente!
One guilty for thosedied soldiers…
Let’s take that picture as an occasion to reflect on the insanity of using war as a means of resolving conflicts – much less as a means of gaining control over the destinies of others – be they ever so condemnable in our minds’ eyes.
A bush non importa nulla nè dei militari nè dei civili che vengono uccisi quotidianamente in questa guerra creata a tavolino contro l’Iraq. Inoltre il popolo americano è così ignorante che probabilemente voterà di nuovo per bush e sarà la fine del mondo libero.
Così come a al nostro Berlusca non importa nulla degli Italiani che sono morti e potrebbero ancora morire il Iraq, tanto non sono suoi parenti, non è coinvolto in prima persona….e poi, diciamocelo chiaro, a parte le ipocrisie solite e devastanti….ma a chi può fregare, a parte i famigliari, se i 4 rapiti in Iraq vengono ammazzati? Non erano certo lì a raccogliere margherite, bensì a rompere i c….
X Gabriella: La nostra salvezza è che questi potenti hanno creato un mondo che, anche qui dove si sta bene, non è più a misura d’uomo, il disagio cresce…Non potrà continuare a lungo così il mondo ma io credo che dopo sarà meglio, non peggio.
I’m 53 and still like to live as much as possible, because life is “ONE”.
I cry for those young victims, who had their dreams truncated, and not only them, my tears are also for the thousand of civilians who died or , worst, who are living mutilated or burned or suffering for ever . Most of them are just kids, we should think about that! I don’t think that anyone of us would like to be part of that mosaic, especially once, we all know the “no” reason of this war. What make me worrying is that there are thousand of people ready to be part of a mosaic of bin laden or al sadr. This gives us an idea of the power of manipulation we are victim of.
IRACHENO PICCHIATO A MORTE DA SOLDATI USA. Un iracheno è morto dopo essere stato picchiato da soldati americani con il manganello, perchè si era rifiutato di togliere dalla sua auto una fotografia del leader radicale sciita Moqtada al Sadr. Lo ha reso noto oggi la polizia irachena secondo la quale l’uomo era stato arrestato ieri sera dai soldati Usa che conducevano operazioni di ricerca in una strada del centro di Kut
Questa è l’America delle libertà……
Sarebbe come se un Italiano portasse sulla propria auto la fotografia di un proprio concittadino, e militari non italiani, ma USA lo ammazzassero di botte….non avreste voglia di rompere il culo a questi militari che spadroneggiano in casa d’altri?
no peròavrei voglia di rompere il culo a quelli che srivono notizie false e faziose, senz’altro…..viva la pace e i culi rotti?
Ah! intendi Bush e Blair….beh! si, sono daccordo con te!
You may wonder why lot of italian comments here? Well an italian news web site, anti-american and pro islamic terrorism linked this site………
Perchè i signori del nostro governo che hanno deciso di coinvolgere il nostro paese alla “liberazione” dell’Iraq [più per servilismo che per lungimiranza], non mandano i loro figli a combattere in Iraq ?
forse non hanno bisogno di soldi.
Se fosse stata una guerra portata avanti per liberare il popolo Iraqeno, sono certo che gli iraqeni avrebbero capito e accolto ben diversamente le forze americane; ma visto che è ed è stata fin dall’inizio una guerra per usurpare il petrolio iraqeno (e Bush l’ha detto a chiare lettere nella sua ultima conferenza) e umiliare un popolo intero (così come fu in Vietnam) allora è chiaro che gli amaricani, come allora, dovranno fare ora, tra 10 o 20 anni le valige e tornarsene a casa loro; è probabile che quei poveri diavoli morti per una causa ben diversa da quella per cui combattevano sono troppo pochi ancora per il governo americano affinchè tolga le tende…mah! capricci dei potenti!!
A tutti gli Italiani che hanno contribuito.
Complimenti. Siete giunti su questa pagina grazie a Repubblica, che ha irresponsabilmente mostrato il link del blog.
Sia ben chiaro: so che siete parziali lettori della solita, vecchia sinistra Italiana. E siete di sinistra per il solito, vecchio motivo (anche diventato luogo comune): la vostra percezione di “ingiustizia” nei vostri confronti. E’ arrivata l’ora che vi diciate (almeno la verità). Poichè la vostra condizione personale (lavorativa, personale) è presumibilmente non di vostro gradimento, si sceglie di schierarsi con la presente sinistra. No. Vi state sbagliando: non sono un berlusconiano. Ma nemmeno uno della “vostra” sinistra.
Per vostra informazione (giacchè non sono certo che sappiate leggere in inglese), le foto dei militari US morti (anche per voi, accidenti) sono disposti a rotazione nel mosaico. Il numero totale – quindi – non è uguale a righe per colonne.
Ma lasciamo pure stare questa premessa.
La scelta – senza permesso – di costruire un’immagine siffatta, con tutte le conseguenze del caso, è disgraziata. Così come chi la appoggia.
English, brief version of what I just said in Italian:
Most Italians that have just posted here, come from present Italian, disgraceful left political side.
While I can not speak of other countries’ left political parties, I can assure you, that current political Italian left party is (and has been) a disgrace for our country.
And no, I am not one of Berlusconi’s voters. I am politically speaking, centered.
I find it also disgraceful to have composed such a politically meaningful image, disrespectful of those soldiers’ will, thoughts, motivations, and their families’.
Shame on you.
How sad. I wonder how Bush feels. Probably doesn’t care since it isn’t his family that has to suffer loss. He claims to be a Christian, but doesn’t seem that way to me. God Bless all the families who has had to suffer for his mistakes.
Sono morti per noi? Sinceramente io ho molta più paura adesso che qualche anno fa; poi per cosa sarebbero morti? Per liberare l’Iraq da Saddam? No, visto che la maggior parte sono morti dopo; o forse i circa 20.000 mercenari al soldo delle multinazionali combattono per i miei interessi? Non credo, visto che io guadagno 10 volte meno di loro e non ammazzo nessuno, mentre loro si ingrassano di soldi assassinando gente che non conoscono nè personalmente nè culturalmente; o forse le multinazionali presenti in Iraq stanno costruendo la pace anche per me? o non è forse il caso di dire che ingrassano i loro portafogli sulla pelle della povera gente? e tanto ancora ci sarebbe da dire…ma a che serve, chi vuol vedere vede, chi si ostina a vivere di illusioni e ipocrisie, continui pure a farlo, che ne sia pienamente coscente però.
Many of you have the naive idea that the rest of the world “needs” protecting by your country. America is busy sticking their noses into the politics of the world and making enemies wherever she goes. Most of the rest of the world is trying to fix their own problems first. USA is now looked upon as warmongers. You should all be ashamed of your president for fighting a war for oil. No WMDs, weren’t you after Osama? And god get a clue. I farking hate America. I hope you get what you deserve. Most hated country in the world is a damned good start.
Poi una cosa non è chiara e non lo sarà mai….combattere l’ipocrisia, le guerre inutili, i massacri significa essere di sinistra. Dunque, chi non è di sinistra è un assassino? Federico, non è certo questa l’equazione……quindi qualcosa che non va nel tuo teorema c’è.
Esatto! L’America deve sempre mettere il naso negli affari del mondo intero…deve proteggere….è un pò come quelle mamme che non fai un passo che te le ritrovi, scusate il termine, in mezzo alle palle; ma non è forse il caso che l’America si veda gli affari propri interni e rompa un pò di meno? Nessuno ha bisogno del suo aiuto….o meglio…se in Iraq si fosse adottata una politica di forte aiuto economico, Saddam da un bel dì sarebbe stato gettato alle ortiche dal popolo iraqeno stesso; ma siccome gli obiettivi dell’America erano ben altri, ecco spiegati i miliardi e miliardi di dollari gettati al vento e le tante vittime umane inutili ad una causa veramente democratica.
The point is…. Who cares about Saddam Hussein? he wasn’t a big issue for me!
He wasn’t a danger for the US, and I don’t really care about freedom in Iraq.
Saddam was a F*****g diktator, and so? Our enemy is Bin Laden, not Saddam, not Arafat, not Gheddafi, not anybody else.
What’s sad is that those soldiers lost their life for nothing.
By the way…. Italian guys, please write in English, conversation would be much more interesting, thanks
This is a brillant work of art. It deserves publishing in some very prominent place. That it is on the web is nice but EVERYONE needs to see this, even those without internet access.
Very moving picture. But if I was George bush and my face was made by the troops I sent out to Iraq, I would feel bad. To know my face makes the troops that have died for our country
Two quick points.
1. “Canadian Girl” (#199), I agree with you to a point, but why do you “farking hate America”?
Don’t you realise you’re being just as stupid and naieve as all those right wing neocon assholes with your
sweeping generalization? Your point is valid, just don’t taint the righteous movement with these kind of comments.
And America deserves freedom from facism, not retaliation for its dictatorship.
2. “lorres”(#202), These guys are speaking in Italian because they’re from Italy. The communication system we are
using is known as the “world wide web”, therefore people who are not American can also use it. Are you confused?
I appreciate that Italian is their native language, but I don’t speak Italian and I’m not sure what to do about the comments. I moderate for vulgar profanity and such but there’s no good way for me to know what’s in those comments, and whether or not they are appropiate to this discussion.
Many thanks to the italian newspaper La Repubblica! I saw information about this mosaic in its site. I made a link at once. I INTERPRET THIS MOSAIC AS A HOMAGE TO THE BRAVE SOLDIERS OF UNITED STATES WHO HAVE DIED IN IRAQ. They had ideals! But now we know the business scandal about the mercenaries that are in Iraq. Some of them are in hostage. These mercenaries try to be rich in a short time! This is an outrage to the dead american soldiers. Why does Paul Bremer prefer for his personal defense the 450 operative guards of Blackwater security consulting? They are mercenaries! BUSH AND BREMER SHOULD BE ASHAMED!
Andrew & George Bush, Don’t worry ! if the war continues, the creator of the photo will be not needing to re-use the same picture twice.
My liberal sister-in-law who forwarded this to me as well as our mother-in-law who had 5 brothers all who served during WWII is now back on my shit list. She has the misguided notion that blitzing me with liberal drivel will some how sway my vote this coming election.
What this mosaic represents for me a a Photoshop nerd with too much time on their hands and a giant lack of respect for the familys of these fallens soldiers – none of whom I’m sure DID NOT give their permission to use their images in this insulting and degrading manner. I expect the president’s image to be used against him in the media, but give our troops both serving our country or taken from us some respect.
STOP ALL THE CRYING, WAR IS WAR PEOPLE STILL DIE FROM IT. IF YOU CANT HANDLE IT THEN GET OUT OF KICHEN AND SHUT UP. I DONT CARE WHAT HE SAID SHE SAID BULL. WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY OR WHAT EVER. WE ARE A SUPERPOWER AND THE BIG DOG. YOU DO WHAT WE SAY OR GET YOUR ASS BUSTED PLAN AND SIMPLE. IAM TIRED THE RIGHT WING FOLLOWERS WITH THER POOR THEM ATTUIDE. THESE PEOPLE SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE TO FIGHT (BUT I JUST WANTED THE MONEY FOR COLLEGE). WHO EVER IS GOING TO BE IN OFFICE THERE IS NO GOING BACK NOW, TO BACK DOWN NOW WILL ONLY CAUSE OTHER COUNRTY TO DO WHAT THEY WON’T WITH US BECOUSE WE WONT FIGHT BACK. LOOK AT ALL THE BOMBINGS THAT WERE POINTED AT US IN THE LAST TEN YRS, I DONT THINK I NEED NAME THEM ALL DO I. WMD ARE THEY THERE OR NOT WHO CARES. DONT TELL ME THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU BEEN LIED TO GET OVER IT. AT LEAST GW IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU DONT DO SOMETHING NOW 3000 PEOPLE AT THE WTC BE A LOW NUMBER THE NEXT TIME. I KNOW I HIT ON A LOT OF SUBJECTS BUT JUST HAD TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THEM IN MY SHORT AMOUT OF TIME.P.S. TO ALL THE BLEEDING HEARTS FEEL FREE TO RESPONE IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH ME (email@example.com)
“E’ arrivata l’ora che vi diciate (almeno la verità).”
E diciamola questa verità, caro Federico: tu hai dei grossi problemi con la lingua italiana.
Ricordati anche che le virgole non si mettono a caso, neanche quando scrivi in inglese.
Ok. Lemme explain something to you here. The people we are fighting go around in cililian clothes, hide behind women and children, and specifically attack targets that are primarily inhabited by civilians. Just look at the train bombing in Spain. We have not fought a war yet in which no soldier has died. With war comes causualities. Sure, it is sad that people have to die for the cause of freedom, but every one of those faces enlisted in the military by their own free will. Every one of those people knew that they could be in danger. Anyone with some concience would pray for those families every day. Instead of trying to convince the president to draw out, we should become more determined to wipe out these cowards. If we choose to let them scare us, they have won. And if they see that we have no backbone, then they will continue their attacks. I’m sure that all bush-haters have their own ideas of what could go better. But here’s some food for thought, even John F. Kerry said that it was too late to draw out.
My son is in the British Royal Navy. He came home safe. We need to have pride in the valour of the boys in this picture but not the of the image they create.
Pete (#210)- you are a paranoid, psychotic fool. Do us all a favor and either grow some brains or join the army.
Just a question: where did G.W. Bush during the Vietnam conflict? Was he showing his superior courage on the frontline? No? How strange…
None of you have any right to bitch until you have served over there…let the boots on the ground tell you what they saw. “de oppresso liber”
It is not the time to criticize the govenrment. Its time to show that we have the resolve to defeat the barbaric people who are our enemies. If you don’t like the administration, then go to the booth and vote. If it doesn’t come out to your liking.. try again in 4 years. We need to stand behind the president no matter the outcome, even Kerry will have to defend the USA against the evil barbaric nuts that hate us. If Kerry wins, he will quickly learn the degree of hate that these people have for us. It will not do any good to pull our troops out and become isolationist. They are going to continue to attack us until we no longer walk the face of the earth. We must present a unified front and erradicate the evil in every possible way we can unitl they no longer have the energy or the want to harm us. By putting down Bush and his administration, you are just causing more americans to die. It emboldens the enemy to fight harder. Quit complaining and bow up your chest and stand strong against them, don’t fear them.. we are more capable of destroying the country from within than they are from the outside looking in.
If G.W. Bush saw this; he still wouldn’t get the picture. He has no conscience for all the bloodshed to feed his and Cheney’s insatiable greed. Let us act for a regime change this year. Pray for Peace.
The Arabs won’t quit.
They never have.
They will fight for generations until we give them what they want. They now want us to leave. I understand that many Americans are very headstrong and unwilling to compromise but the Arabs will use every dirty trick to win. Saddam was a madman but he was from a country of madmen. None of the Iraqi leaders I have seen on TV seems willing and able to run an effective democracy.
They also have what seems to be an endless supply of fighters. If 25 million people live in Iraq and only a small portion of the population wants to fight us then this fight could still go on indefinitely. It would be politically untenable for the president to have more than 150,000 troops in Iraq because this would look like a failure.
I also think that Sistani may not be willing to wait a year for elections. He may try to seize power. If he does then we could have an uprising on our hands that we are unable to stop. If this were to happen we would be fighting the Shias or Shiates. Sorry about the spelling. These folks are 60% of the country. That is 15 million people. In the event of a full uprising we would have to fight 3-5 million military aged men. An attack on Sadr in Najaf could also widen the conflict to Iraqis who are currently on the sidelines.
What people don’t understand is that Arabs are mentally prepared for failure. When an American or European fails we admit that we were wrong and pick a different course of action. Arabs just get angrier and rally their friends to the cause.
Also, Americans are still resolute not to fail but the Iraqis are fanatical. The Sunnis hate us, but if we fight the Shias our troops are in trouble. These people have a ceremony they celebrate every year where they slash their skin, bleed all over themselves, and dance in the streets all day. I sense that their will to win may triumph over ours. They are driven by blood lust, not logic. I fear that things will somehow get worse and I see no realistic way they will get better.
Someone objected to my first post; it disappeared sometime early Monday morning, which lead to my second post (#91). But I’m not bitter; I’ve had a few days to come to my senses. I have to admit that I was somewhat harsh. Too abrasive, I suppose, for Photo Matt’s delicate sensitivities. I should apologize for suggesting that a mosaic of aborted babies would be as heart-rendering, once an arbitrary choice had been made as to who the mosaic should represent. I should have realized that babies was the wrong word here, respected everyones’s carefully thought out choices and stuck with foetuses. And my further suggestion that a mosaic of Senator Kennedy made of whisky bottles, Oldsmobiles and images of Mary-Jo Kopechne was of equal value in the greater scheme of shameless partisanship, didn’t show any more taste than the first one. Whatever was I thinking? I cast bloody pearls not before swine, but before well-meaning people who, revolted by fleeting images of 9-11 in that smirking Bush’s campaign ads, could never come to exploit the dead in any but a truly well-intentioned way from that unimpeachible moral stronghold they have made themselves on the High Road. These young men and women in the mosaic had died, I realized, for a noble purpose not of Bush’s choosing. Their extinction – and the deft and clever manipulation by the unknown (to me) Photostop artist – serve admirably to let hundreds of thousands of people all around the world feel really, really good about themselves, without the trouble of actually having to do…anything. You can be moved at how much their loss moves you, without having to put your own body between your loved ones, and right or wrong, those that you think seek to harm them. After all, they’re dead, and you are not, and live and angry beats dead and buried any day. You can wipe a tear away at their wasted potential, feel your guts churn with righteous indignation that they died for Oil and Haliburton, vent your wrath at a president so moronic that they only let him fly a obsolete death trap of a jet and never allowed him near the new, expensive ones – all from the convenience of your keyboard, and warmth and comfort of your home. You don’t have to go out and put your life on the line; someone else got martyred and made your protest so much easier. That noble, noble end, making a real difference in the lives of pacifistic peoples around the earth, washes away any stain that may linger on the memories of these freshly dead soldiers from the fact that nothing more than mere love for their families, their country and their freedom drove them to battle and death. You have sanctified their loss, and made them holy.
Siamo governati da dei folli che ci usano come pedine per la loro smania di potere. Berlusconi è un pazzo maniaco. Voglio vedere se uno degli ostaggi era un suo congiunto se diceva quella frase: “Hanno spezzato una vita, non hanno incrinato i nostri valori e il nostro impegno per la pace”. Che gli frega a lui di una sola vita? ne ha 62 milioni di vite a disposizione da spezzare per i suoi fini politici e per leccare il culo a Bush.
“i tuoi sentimenti ti tradiscono”. Leggi: riprendermi per la sintassi, è un chiaro segno di cosa provi e di come, vigliaccamente, protesti al di fuori del contesto. Vergogna.
Primo, rifletti. Secondo, a te ed a tutti i “connazionali”: quando si posta su un forum come questo, aggiungiate almeno una versione in inglese, per rispetto agli altri.
Agli altri commenti, accetto ed apprezzo le vostre obiezioni, come civilmente dovrebbe essere (anche) nel nostro paese.
“your (hatred) feelings speak for you (and betray you, I should add)”. You shouldn’t concentrate on my syntax, you’d better try and focus on the contents, and not on my person. You should be ashamed of yourself.
To all other Italians posting here, please add an English version to your post, it’s due as a sign of respect to the English speaking host of the site, and all the readers.
I respect both my “compatriots’ ” views and others’, with all their (our) obvious differences.
Make a big freakin’ huge picture of Hitler using just a small percentage of the Jewish people he killed leading up to and in World War II. Then next to it, in comparison a postage stamp sized one of him using all of those who died to rid the world of him.
I am so glad you left whine wingers came AFTER WWII. Your lack of support and repect for your country and our leaders just pisses me off.
Nice to know dumb-asses are not unique to the American Left. Terrorists flew 2 planeloads of innocent men women and children into the Twin Towers! Hussein supported terrorism they found training camps when it was invaded! Do you not get TV in your cave? Bush plainly said that terrorists and the countries that support them are going down. I am glad we have a President with some sack for a change, I am sure when OBL is finally bagged we will still all be a bunch of dicks to you though. What other leaders in the world want to actually do something about terrorists other than pay lip service?
You ever heard Toby Keith? He’s a Country music singer here in the USA… country like as in Proud of my Country. Here’s a line from one of his songs, “Courtesy of the Red White and Blue.” We’ll put a boot in your ass, it’s the American way… Somewhere there is a boot with Osama’s name on it.
People die and you Americans continued in your foolish politics, and with to you the governments who support to you. People die and she does not want to die for your stupid hypocrisies.
se desideri essere più obiettivo, dovresti tenere in considerazione che una larga parte degli “Americani” non si è schierata a favore di questo conflitto. Il termine “voi Americani” è improprio, non giusto, e denota una certa mentalità Italiana – tipicamente sinistroide – chiusa, incapace di dialogo e pregiudizievole.
Sarebbe come se ti sentissi dire “voi Italiani mafiosi”, quando tu – immagino – non lo sei. Da loro, è come da noi (magari fosse): una parte è a favore, una contraria.
Dovresti documentarti un po’ di più.
E’ tempo che gli Italiani – qualunque opinione socio-politica abbiano – si rendano più all’altezza di una comunità internazionale, nell’espressione del proprio pensiero.
you should be aware by now that a large portion of “them Americans” was against this conflict since its beginning.
If you want to refer to the Americans more properly – instead of just pointing your finger to a fuzzy nebula for lack of knowledege making your opinion less worth – you should take into consideration this point.
It’s just like American people referred to you saying “you Italian mafia people” when you – I guess – are not.
In order to make your point more constructive and worth reading for the whole community, I’d suggest that you read more, and learn how to better express your opinions in an online international community such as this.
If you are going to do this right how about a mosaic of FDR and WWII dead; HST and the Korean Dead and how about everyones favorite JFK and the Vietnam dead.
This kind of crap is demeaning, unpatriotic and down right STUPID.
Steve go home and play the DIXIE CHICKS (MORON)! Dont think you ever served and walked the grunt line, me 5yrs so i got room to complain. I see you didnt have the balls to leave your email either.
Now thats funny, theres one for all the left wingers
Steve you need to check out post #215 thats right up your alley. LOL
For #227 get a grip on yourself (if you dont like the U.S. get out and leave all the money you made here).
re-read the post before you write again bitching. My words were directed to a fellow Italian, with the opposite meaning you perceived (evidently).
FYI, I don’t live in US ( and never have), I’m in Italy.
Sorry 227 I ment to type 226
Hey, USA is NOT George W Bush. Like Arabs are NOT Osama Bin Laden.
The are some people here in the US who think that this war is ridiculous (and it seems i’m not the only one), and since we are a democracy we will vote for the next nerd who is supposed to rappresent our country, and I hope it won’t be G.W.Bush.
But please… we americans are a bit more clever then our president.
Bush has been the first president weve had in a long time to get out there and do something. I feel safer knowin that saddam is no longer in power and that our troops are taking steps to combat terrorism. To all you who feel otherwise, i really have nothing to say because i am past the point of arguing with idiots who do not understand how the world works. Peace does not stop terrorism. In our world of relatively civilized nations, the Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future. They kill their own children just so you can look at their pictures and feel sorry. for people who are smart enough to understand this – for people who actually know history – i applaud you. For the person who said “Freedom isn’t f free” good job. And for the person who brought up japs – I AM DELIBERATELY REFERRIN TO THEM AS JAPS – good job too. Those bastards deserved more than 2 atom bombs. If i had it my way, the middle east would have long been occupied by us, and then we would not have any trouble with those bastards. Just know that if a terrorist ever got his hands on a nuclear weapon, they would not hesitate for a moment to use it against us no matter what we do. when that election rolls around, my votes for bush.
I did my time in Vietnam. Then I ended my tour of duty in a research unit. Our job was to “automate” the battlefield. The theory was that we should conduct future wars without American casualties. We are almost there. Because of our research and other such projects there are one tenth as many Americans killed in combat now compared to the same time period in Vietnam. I am 100 percent with Bush concerning this war. I also believe it will involve Iran and Syria in 2005. We will continue to have extremely light casualties in the future. Any enemy of America soon believes he is fighting “magicians.”
May it ever be so.
Pete, Pete, Pete…
Let’s break your post down argument by argument, shall we? And I’ll even be gracious and offer definitions for any big words you may not fully understand. (For instance, “argument” is a statement made to support a position in a debate, “gracious” is a kind or courteous stance, and “definition” is a short summary of a word’s meaning.)
Now, your first statement, “STOP ALL THE CRYING, WAR IS WAR PEOPLE STILL DIE FROM IT. IF YOU CANT HANDLE IT THEN GET OUT OF KICHEN AND SHUT UP.” Wow. What a masterful summary of international conflict. (“Masterful” means that something reveals a mastery or skill, but it’s important to point out that it’s being used sarcastically in this instance. You see, I’m ridiculing your simplistic statement by calling it masterful, since anyone above a third-grade intellect can recognize it as the moronic ramblings of a jingoist knee-jerk neo-fascist lacking either the intellect or the courage to question the party line. Actually, I’m sorry, but there’s going to be way too many definitions. This’ll take all night. Just go to http://www.dictionary.com and type them in.) Now, back to your statement. Yes, death is an inevitable part of war, just as death is an inevitable part of life. Drunk drivers also kill people. Does that mean we should just accept it and stop trying to keep them off the road? In case you were wondering, the correct answer is “no.” The issue here is an issue of accountability. Since death is an inevitable result of war, there exists a moral obligation to minimize its proliferation. This means NOT sending troops into battle without proper supplies. This means NOT sending troops to a hostile country with no clear plan of action, and most importantly, this means NOT sending them to attack a nation that posed no real threat of danger. One of General Clark’s main arguments in his campaign was that, as a soldier, he understood all too well the injustice of ordering others to their deaths, and that led him to the understanding that war must be the absolute last solution to conflict. Of course, he was just a bleeding-heart liberal who was the Supreme Allied Commander of Europe and oversaw the planning and execution of our involvement in Kosovo. So what did he know about war? Now…
“I DONT CARE WHAT HE SAID SHE SAID BULL. WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY OR WHAT EVER. WE ARE A SUPERPOWER AND THE BIG DOG. YOU DO WHAT WE SAY OR GET YOUR ASS BUSTED PLAN AND SIMPLE.” First off, I think the phrase you want is “plain and simple.” This “big dog” philosophy is an interesting one, and one which has been used before. Some examples are Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, Ghenghis Khan, and, of course, Adolf Hitler. Are these really the companions in history you want for America? Not that America is immune from such likenesses to date. This same philosophy, on a more limited scale, is what gave us “Manifest Destiny” and the genocide of the Native population of our country. Saddam was a butcher, yes, but our own benign government gave smallpox-infested blankets to women and children, so who exactly are we to pass judgement? Not to mention, of course, that the U.S. government not only put Saddam into power but also supplied him with the chemical weapons he used on his own people. And, lest you forget, we’re also the ones who trained Osama Bin Laden in terrorist tactics back when the Russians were fighting the Afghani rebels.
“IAM TIRED THE RIGHT WING FOLLOWERS WITH THER POOR THEM ATTUIDE. THESE PEOPLE SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE TO FIGHT (BUT I JUST WANTED THE MONEY FOR COLLEGE)” Wow. Do you even have a conscience? It really doesn’t seem like it. Yes, each one of these soldiers, as you put it, signed on the dotted line. And God bless them for it. Taking an oath to defend your country is one of the most honorable things a person can do. But that doesn’t mean they deserve to be sent off on false pretenses to die in a conflict that never needed to happen. And your attack on those who joined in order to better their education smacks of jealousy. Your post seems to reinforce the idea that you yourself never anvanced very far in the educational field. I’m guessing you were a high school dropout, judging from your general misuse of spelling and grammar. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but don’t gloat that others are dead because they wanted more for themselves. It’s just petty.
“WHO EVER IS GOING TO BE IN OFFICE THERE IS NO GOING BACK NOW, TO BACK DOWN NOW WILL ONLY CAUSE OTHER COUNRTY TO DO WHAT THEY WON’T WITH US BECOUSE WE WONT FIGHT BACK.” Unfortunately, the first part of your statement is true. There really is no going back. But there are much more sensible ways to move forward. For instance, repairing the rift we’ve generated between ourselves and those nations who were once our allies, and whom we’ve turned against for the heinous crime of wanting more evidence of a threat before sending soldiers into harm’s way. The other part of your argument, however, is patently absurd. Any country who wants to “DO WHAT THEY WON’T WITH US” is free to try. And free to face the retribution that follows. This next part is important, so I’m going to say it real slow. Ready? Iraq… didn’t… attack… us. Got that? They didn’t do what they WANT, which is, by the way, the word you were looking for. In fact, they did everything we told them to, including allowing U.N. weapons inspectors who told us there was no credible threat from them. And we invaded them anyway. What message does this send to the rest of the world? The message that the U.S. can’t be trusted, so don’t believe anything they say and keep attacking them. Stirring up more global opposition is certainly a novel way to combat terrorism, but I’d prefer a method that didn’t egg on those who intend our destruction and add more members to their ranks.
“LOOK AT ALL THE BOMBINGS THAT WERE POINTED AT US IN THE LAST TEN YRS, I DONT THINK I NEED NAME THEM ALL DO I.” Please, feel free. And show me which one of those attacks Saddam Hussein was responsible for. While you’re at it, show the Bush administration, because so far, they haven’t been able to find one.
“WMD ARE THEY THERE OR NOT WHO CARES. DONT TELL ME THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU BEEN LIED TO GET OVER IT. AT LEAST GW IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.” Indeed he is. He’s the one lying to us. And, sadly, no. This isn’t the first time a President has lied to the American people. And it won’t be the last. But I don’t think it’s out of line to expect the leader of our country to tell us the truth. At least with Clinton, his big lie didn’t kill 600 soldiers. Keep in mind, by the way, that the casualty count doesn’t include the hundreds of suicides by troops serving in Iraq. Self-inflicted death isn’t considered a combat casualty.
“IF YOU DONT DO SOMETHING NOW 3000 PEOPLE AT THE WTC BE A LOW NUMBER THE NEXT TIME.” This may well be true. But doing “SOMETHING” is a tricky mandate. Let’s examine what Bush has done. Aside from throwing rocks at the hornet’s nest of the Middle East, he has…
– Nov. 14, 2001: Opposed a $15 billion Homeland Security budget proposal.
– Dec. 4, 2001: Threatened to veto the Senate Appropriations Committee bill giving $13.1 billion to Homeland Security.
– Dec. 6, 2001: Convinces Senate Republicans to reduce Homeland Security funding in the Defense Appropriations bill by $4.6 billion
– Dec. 19, 2001: Asks for (and gets) another $200 million reduction from such areas as airport security, port security, nuclear facility security, and postal security.
– June 7, 2002: Bush senior advisors reccommend a veto of “excessive homeland security spending” of $8.3 billion.
– February 3, 2003: Bush submits his 2004 budget, reducing the Homeland Security budget by 1.9%
So, yes, we need to do something to protect our country. Namely, we need to elect someone who will actually do it.
” KNOW I HIT ON A LOT OF SUBJECTS BUT JUST HAD TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THEM IN MY SHORT AMOUT OF TIME.P.S. TO ALL THE BLEEDING HEARTS FEEL FREE TO RESPONE IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH ME ” I wouldn’t exactly call seven arguments a lot, but I obviously have higher standards when it comes to public debate. Oh, and as far as keeping up with you, I could put together a more coherent argument when I was ten. It takes a lot more than a caps lock button to make a convincing argument. You can try to keep up if you want, but I have the feeling I’m way out of your league.
Jake I want to say something about your words (post #237). First off I don’t expect you to listen to me as you have clearly indicated in your post. But I must say you have one of the most ignorant, generalised, stereotypical, childish comments I’ve seen on the war and on modern American politics in general. Yet instead of having a long-drawn-out argument back and forth of who’s right and who’s wrong….. I hope you may answer one simple question I’m posing so you might perhaps and just perhaps think about your position on the matter…..
How and when are you going to be satisfied by how the world works? Does it mean American world-domination, in which everyone and everything and I mean everything is “Americanised” to your satisfaction? Does it mean everyone in the world will have to be “white”, since you brought up and in fact endorsed the “Jap” comment and as far as I know currently we are NOT at war with Japan so why there is still a hatred towards them is beyond me? Or does it mean something else? When are you going to be satisfied so there won’t ever be military campaigns anymore? And finally how are you going to end this so-called “threat” by terrorism or whatever the (external) entity it may be and finally be satisfied enough to change that ‘t’ word into something otherwise (examples of Germany and Japan comes to mind to what I’m getting at)? “Occupation” might very well mean “Imperialism”, do you really think it is possible to do that under the realities of today in the 21st century –another South Africa? another Hong Kong? or Israel (ie Palestinians versus Israelis)? or Vietnam (ie French occupation)? or Japan? or Philippines (ie American occupation)–
Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future. They kill their own children just so you can look at their pictures and feel sorry.//
You quick to forget Israel is part of the middle east (unless of course you’re anti-semtic as well among your numerous irrational hating, loathing convictions) …..and what ‘good’ would it do for ‘them’ to kill their children? Just to generate and gain sympathy from us? There are countless other ways to gain ‘sympathy’ and I’m pretty sure killing their own is NOT one of their ways. And what if they are killing their own children? What are we going to do about it? I tell you– NOTHING! That’s what….. So unless you give a much MUCH more plausible scenario/ thought/ comment in the future I suggest you restraint yourself from posting on the internet or speaking to another human being for that matter. You sir, are an idiot.
Jim your #225 //// Nice to know dumb-asses are not unique to the American Left. Terrorists flew 2 planeloads of innocent men women and children into the Twin Towers! Hussein supported terrorism they found training camps when it was invaded! Do you not get TV in your cave? Bush plainly said that terrorists and the countries that support them are going down. I am glad we have a President with some sack for a change, I am sure when OBL is finally bagged we will still all be a bunch of dicks to you though. What other leaders in the world want to actually do something about terrorists other than pay lip service? ////
Then DO IT! And do it right! By that I mean eliminate terrorism…. get those bad guys….. provide support for those we’re trying to help…… do it with honor and honesty….. and don’t do a half-ass job!
Look, the fact of the matter is George W Bush is NOT fit to be a president…… just look at his mannerism and he’s the butt of jokes of the world! But more importantly, his incompetence in office shows us that we need to smarten up and change the current trend. Look, the fact is there are many more people in the United States who are more competent as the president than W Bush, I’m pretty sure your own neighbours are better presidents than dumbass. We need to recognise that.
I’m not in favour of any one party and I’m NOT a liberal….. in fact I live a pretty conservative lifestyle….. I look at the person (rather than just the party) whose best fit to run the country. If Bush had done a better job at planning and implementing the Iraq war and if he had all the social services and economy and health care and taxes all figured out and not to mention our relations with the rest of the world, then I’m right with the diehard Bush crowd… no questions about it. But the reality is W Bush is incompetent and just about anyone who could replace him is better. It’s a fact. We need to realise that.
Pete, Pete, Pete… (#210)
I’m going to take a little time here and respond to each one of your arguments one by one, and i’m even going to be gracious and provide definitions for any big words you may not know. (“Arguments” are the statements you made in support of your opinion. “Gracious” is a state of being kind or forgiving. “Definition” is a brief sentence explaining the meaning of a word.) Now, I kind of feel like I’m taking a blowtorch to a mosquito here, but I just couldn’t let your masterful summary of international conflict go unchallenged. (‘Masterful,” by the way, means in a way demonstrating mastery of a subject, but it’s important to point out that it’s being used sarcastically. By calling your statement “masterful,” I’m ridiculing you and your arguments by illustrating, through facetious support, that any third-grader would recognize them as mindless jingoist knee-jerk response from a neo-fascist thug. You know what, I’m sorry, but there’s going to be way too many big words. Just go to dictionary.com and look them up yourself.) Now, on to your first argument.
“STOP ALL THE CRYING, WAR IS WAR PEOPLE STILL DIE FROM IT. IF YOU CANT HANDLE IT THEN GET OUT OF KICHEN AND SHUT UP.” Bravo. Spot-on. War is, indeed, war. People do still die from it. Death is inevitable in war, as it is in every other aspect of life. Drunk drivers still kill innocent people at an alarming rate. Does this mean we should accept it and stop trying to get them off the road? In case you were wondering, the answer is “no.” War is bloody and brutal. Therefore, there is a moral obligation to make sure death is minimized. This is NOT done by sending troops into combat without the proper equipment. This is NOT done by immersing troops in a hostile environment with no support and no clear strategy. This is NOT done by attacking and occupying a country which posed no credible threat and had not shown signs of aggression towards us. Were any of your five years of service under combat conditions? Were you an officer or unit commander? General Wesley Clark has said that being forced to order men to their deaths had given him the understanding that war should be the last option of diplomacy. But he was just a bleeding-heart liberal who served as Supreme Allied Commander of Europe and oversaw the planning and execution of the Kosovo offensive, so what does he know about war?
“I DONT CARE WHAT HE SAID SHE SAID BULL. WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY OR WHAT EVER. WE ARE A SUPERPOWER AND THE BIG DOG. YOU DO WHAT WE SAY OR GET YOUR ASS BUSTED PLAN AND SIMPLE.” Hmm. This “big dog” philosophy is intriguing. Of course, it’s also not an original idea. Others in the past have used it to justify similar undertakings. For instance, Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, Ghenghis Khan, and, of course, Adolf Hitler. Are these really the historical companions you want for America? But let’s not forget, we’ve heard this argument before right here in our very own country. It was called “Manifest Desitiny” at the time, and was used as an excuse for the genocide of the native population. Our own government gave smallpox-infested blankets to women and children. Now Saddam was definitely a butcher, but keep in mind that it was the U.S. government that put him into power and gave him the chemical weapons he used to slaughter his own people. Remember as well that it was the C.I.A that trained Osama Bin Laden in terrorist tactics, back when the Russians were fighting the Afghani rebels.
“IAM TIRED THE RIGHT WING FOLLOWERS WITH THER POOR THEM ATTUIDE. THESE PEOPLE SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE TO FIGHT (BUT I JUST WANTED THE MONEY FOR COLLEGE).” I have to admit, the sheer callousness of that statement had me stunned. Each of these people did, just as you say, sign on the dotted line. And I thank them, and all the others who serve in uniform, for that. To volunteer to defend your country is a noble and glorious thing. That doesn’t mean they deserve to be shipped off to die for a war based on deceit and greed. And your venomous attack on those who enlisted to atend college just reeks of jealousy and contempt. Judging from your general approach to spelling and grammar, I’m going to guess that you were a high-school dropout who enlisted because there weren’t really any other options. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Higher education isn’t for everyone. But don’t fault them for wanting to better themselves. It’s just petty.
“WHO EVER IS GOING TO BE IN OFFICE THERE IS NO GOING BACK NOW, TO BACK DOWN NOW WILL ONLY CAUSE OTHER COUNRTY TO DO WHAT THEY WON’T WITH US BECOUSE WE WONT FIGHT BACK.” Unfortunately, the first part of this statement may well be true. We may have reached the point of no return. However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t better ways to go forward than our current course of action. For instance, we need to regain the support and trust of those countries who were formerly allies and who we turned against for the heinous crime of wanting some kind of solid evidence before waging war on a sovereign nation. But the second half of your argument is patently ridiculous. You think other countries will do what they want if we leave Iraq? You think our involvement in Iraq is having any effect on the plans of al Qaida at all? If anything, it’s spurring them on to more terrorist actions (like Madrid.) You think we invaded Iraq because they didn’t do what we wanted? Iraq did everything we asked them to, including allowing U.N. weapons inspectors who told us there was no credible threat from them. And we invaded anyway. You think we’re going to sit by and let some other country attack us at will? Let me clear something up for you, and it’s important so I’ll go slow. Ready? Iraq… never… attacked… us. Got it? But as a result of our war, you’d better believe there’s more people in Iraq that want to kill us now.
“LOOK AT ALL THE BOMBINGS THAT WERE POINTED AT US IN THE LAST TEN YRS, I DONT THINK I NEED NAME THEM ALL DO I.” Could you? And while you’re at it, show me evidence that Saddam Hussein was behind any of them. You should probably show the White House, too, because right now, they haven’t been able to show any proof of it. All we’ve done is taken a country that was bitter but harmless and stirred them up into an anti-American frenzy.
“WMD ARE THEY THERE OR NOT WHO CARES. DONT TELL ME THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU BEEN LIED TO GET OVER IT. AT LEAST GW IS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.” Yes, he is. He’s the one lying to us. And no, it’s not the first time a President has lied to the American people. And chances are, it won’t be the last. But I don’t think it’s out of line to expect the leader of our country to tell the truth to the American people. At least Clinton’s big lie didn’t kill 600 American soldiers. Those statistics, by the way, don’t count all the suicides by active-duty soldiers. Self-inflicted deaths aren’t combat casualties.
“IF YOU DONT DO SOMETHING NOW 3000 PEOPLE AT THE WTC BE A LOW NUMBER THE NEXT TIME.” This may very well prove true. However, doing “something” is a tricky mandate. Let’s examine exactly what President Bush has done to make our country safer from attack…
– November 14, 2001: Rejects a $15 billion proposal for Homeland Security spending, warning against spending on projects unrelated to economic stimulus.
– December 4, 2001: Threatens to veto a Senate Appropriations bill giving $13.1 billion to Homeland Security programs.
– December 6, 2001: Convinces Senate Republicans to reduce Homeland Security funding in the Defense Apppropriations bill by $4.6 billion.
– December 19, 2001: Pressures the Senate to reduce Homeland Security funding by an additional $200 million. This money came from programs for airport security, port security, nuclear facility security, and postal security.
– June 7, 2002: White House senior advisors recommend a veto of an $8.3 billion Homeland Security spending bill, calling it “excessive homeland security spending.”
– February 3, 2003: President Bush submits his 2004 budget, which reduces Homeland Security spending by 1.9%.
And that’s just the start. We can indeed do something to make America safer from terrorist attacks. We can elect a president who will actually do something about it, instead of talking big while he cuts security programs.
“I KNOW I HIT ON A LOT OF SUBJECTS BUT JUST HAD TO RESPOND TO SOME OF THEM IN MY SHORT AMOUT OF TIME.P.S. TO ALL THE BLEEDING HEARTS FEEL FREE TO RESPONE IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH ME” I don’t really call 7 arguments a lot, but I suspect I have a higher standard of expectations for public debate. As for keeping up with you? I could put together a more coherent argument than yours when I was ten. Do you really want to try me now? You’re welcome to make the effort, but I suspect I’m way out of your league on this. It takes more than a caps lock button to keep up.
Alright, I should explain why I posted my lengthy dissection of Pete’s post #210 twice. NOT because I feel everyone should read it again and again, but because my modem crashed halfway through sending the first version. Upon reconnecting and refreshing the site, my post was not there. So, under the impression that it didn’t go through, I went about the ardurous task of reconstructing it from memory. Not a bad job, I must say. But, upon posting version 2.0, I discovered that, much to my chagrin, the original version had indeed gone through. So, whoever is maintaining this site, feel free to eliminate one of the two. I’d prefer to delete the first, since the second is a little more concise. Feel free to delete this explanation, as well. I just hate looking like I don’t know how to use a computer.
I live in Irak and I want my freedom back.
Please give me back my FREEDOM!!!!
voy a escribir en espanol para que me entiendan los chicos italianos. Habais visto la foto del enlace de “A concerned american”? Es asquerosa. Bien, pues mis mensajes diciendo que esa foto es asquerosa y el modo en que ese *** se rï¿½e de los que estamos en contra de la guerra han sido censurados; sin embargo, ese enlace tan gore y repugnante sigue ahï¿½. Ya veis, America, la tierra de la libertad, que nos va a salvar a todos de la infamia.
TOPAS ESPAOLAS A CASA: NO A LA GUERRA.
(Cuanto durarï¿½ mi post aquï¿½ 😉
Sorry, TROPAS ESPAÃ‘OLAS A CASA. NO A LA GUERRA.
LIBERTAD DE EXPRESIÃ“N (en mi paÃs existe).
To all the people above who think this is a war for freedom: why on earth do you think the U.S. (or the italian, or the english) government is intervening? for the freedom of the iraqi people? what about china? their people are quite enslave too, but they make a good deal for a lot of countries, don’t you think? what about russia where the last elections were the antithesys to democratic elections and all the cecenians are treated as plain shit? what about africa where people dies for malaria, aids or some religious or political slaughter? what about all other countries where people doesn’t have the right to speech their minds, or even the right to drink water cause there is someone who wants them to pay for the privilege…do you think that bombing is the best way to export democracy? why on earth do dear G.W.Bush had to take on iraq? because he felt sorry for the poor guys that have been gassed? don’t make me luagh, i couldn’t anyway though. Yeah he cought saddam, it was good job but we are paying a price that is way too big. you wanna fight terrorism? cool, i’d suggest you to eradicate the first source of terrorism: misery. Open up your eyes, nobody gives a fuck for the people which is dying all over the world. Yeah sometimes you really have to fight till death, there is nothing to ashemed of. But you really have to do it as the last resource, and you have to be in a position where everything else would fail. I’m just so sorry those who have died in this war. Well, i’m going back to my cave now. and i know that my thoughts wont change anything, i just tried.
If all of you Bush-haters could have had your way, Saddam Hussein would still be in power. And there isn’t enough space on a computer screen for a mosaic of all the people he’s killed. And the people he killed never had a choice or a chance; whereas, if you voluntarily enlist for the U.S. Military, you know there’s an outside chance you could be killed. The vast overwhelming majority of U.S. servicepeople support the mission; who do these liberal whiners and appeasers think they are, to presume to speak for the soldiers? They aren’t worthy to lick their boots.
The amount of soldiers killed in Iraq, while certainly tragic, amounts to 3 average days’ worth of deaths of U.S. soldiers in WWII (from Pearl Harbor to Tokyo Bay, we lost an average of 220 soldiers per day). The stakes in the war on terror, of which Iraq is a main theater, are just as great as they were during WWII. But no one makes mosaics of FDR. Back then it was the Republican isolationists who were on the wrong side of history. Today, it is the ignorant and amoral Bush-hating liberals.
“Man, it’s gonna be hell, when you hear Mother Freedom start ringin’ her bell and it feels like the whole wide world is raining down on you, brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue. Justice will be served and the battle will rage, this big dog will fight when you rattle his cage. And you’ll be sorry that you messed with The U.S. of A. ‘Cause we’ll put a boot in your ass. It’s the American way” (Toby Keith: the “western” fatwa)
“We — with Allah’s help — call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan’s U.S. troops and the devil’s supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson”. (Usama Bin Laden: the islamic fatwa).
To 240 It looks like you should be running the country. But insted you just sit and type, you must be single and a idiot. You have way too much time on your hand to resond with a book. What i wrote took about 3 min to nail down,you sat there and put way too thought into it (just nuke em and be done with it). But i did graduate and work for ford by the way. So by the way i responded to this in about 1.5 min. So feel free to spend an nite alone with yourself, Try and resond in 1 or 2 senteaces and see how it comes out. ps dont have the time to fx my typos deal with it.
Jake now what i like to hear (sorry bleeding hearts)
pat pat pat patty cake, why dont you just go to white house and tell them whats wrong them, man you have a lot to say but i dont anyone is wanting to hear you (just like in school). Get a life
pat, and what did clinton do while we were getting bombed while HE was in office. Look it up.
How did we know they had wmd over there, becouse we sold them to him, you have to find these bombs in an area of about the size of caif. of just sand. Pretty easy to do with a gps system. just wait untill we leave and dig em up. Any body see the jets that were found in the sand buired from russia, state of the art tech.
245 excuses, excuses, god dam you cant even say you made a mistake in 1 sentance. What a blowhard. (no blowhard is not sexual in nature.)
You must be the life of the party, you ever wonder why people walk away when you arrive. bla bla bla. Mr wright I know everthing. Say something in 30 sec that you mean,What in did when I was in the service is I was ordinance officer if you must know. What do you do write poetry, study the gov and whats wrong with it and everybody else. Slow down before your brain explodes
to Beau. Your comment about the Iraqi chemical attack in 1988. Yes, it was awful, but what did the Reagan admin do to punish Saddam for using the chemical weapons WE gave him?? We looked the other way and continued to arm him. your PRemise that We attacked Iraq to give them freedom and punish Saddam for his bad behavior 16 years ago…that dog won’t hunt! The story keeps changing. When no WMD are found, the “he killed people” story is used or the bringing them democracy is used. You will do anything to justify this boondoggle (bushdoggle) that bush has lied to get us into.
Well, yee-haw. You try and get me to run off and hide in the corner because of character attacks from some redneck yahoo douchebag? What bugs you most? That I’m right, that I can articulate above a third-grade level, or that I remind you of exactly how big a failure your life really is? There. That was just about 30 seconds.
Jonas S. Luster: Your comments are succinct and intelligent. Incredibly refreshing in this melee of insanity, misinformation and hysteria. Thank you.
Since quite a few people have brought up how “few” soldiers we’ve lost in this “war on terrah,” i guess it might have been more appropriate to use photos of the civilians of iraq, to whom we are supposedly giving freedom. i guess death *does* set you free…
plenty of people in iraq to make a mosaic : http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
Too bad we can’t get Dumbya’s picture in there.
What bugs me the most is I can get to get off your soap box with just a few words, My life is just fine, I dont have to take time and try to tell everybody that I’m right, unlike yourself. See even a so called third grader can you get pissed off, you pat are a very shallow and need counseling. And I got you do some name calling Too.!! There might be some hope for you yet.(but I dont think so)
To all the irak lovers take a plane over there and try to talk peace and love, you dont get it they hate us, and dont blame bush or anyone else, they hated us eversence pat can remember. go on pat tell em?
Pat, War and Drunk Drivers I think your way out of line to compare the two. Speaking of booze I think its time for your martini.
For pat #260 it sounds like you just looked in mirror and started to type what you seen. pity pity
Say pat you still havent said what yoooou do (unemployed perhaps). Redneck? isnt that sort of racist. Just keep on talking the real you just comes pouring out, you just cant help can you.
someone earlier mentioned that only 500-600 soldiers had died…that is the total of insta-kills, as our generation is so proud of saying. Now count how many are wounded and die in the hospitals and the totals might be right there among the 1500. Casualty reports only list the immediate deaths not the slow and painful ones.
“Dissent and protest are not unpatriotic.”
No, they are not. But using a soldiers image to support your pathetic political views is downright goulish and sick.
Shocking, considering how “MOVED” you are by the image. Were you also MOVED to contact the families of those fallen soldiers and ask if it was ok to plaster their face all over your vile little website?
I suppose you don’t plan on considering whether or not those families would support your effort to use their tragedy to help Kerry get elected?
Sick as it gets
“Casualty reports only list the immediate deaths not the slow and painful ones.”
Of course you could care less about the heroic, valorous or selfless ones, right?
The ones that saved a buddy or a stranger.
Naw. They’re all just props to you.
Besides, what would a liberal know or care of such things?
In reality, you could care less how they actually died. Or how their families feel about your pathetic little art project.
Just another piece for your prop.
I liked what tripwire Mike had to say- quit whining- we need to celebrate these heroes. They chose to go to Iraq knowing what might happen, and they still went- FOR US!! Mr. Dave R., you say Saddam wasn’t a threat, why, b/c we haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction? Well what if we never went in there and they decided to use these weapons on us? I liked what “Fred” had to say, SHOOT first and then find the evidence. Even if they never find any evidence, I will still stand behind our president. Saddam was hiding weapons in elementary schools, he was killing his own people- he needed to be taken out!!
All of the liberals think they know whats going on in the war on terror, but all they know is what they see on TV. Have you ever talked to a soldier that has come back from Iraq and have you heard about all of the Iraqi people that want us there and thank them everyday for being there??? Do you know how much good will come out of this once this is done and over with. We are helping them have a stable goverment and the people appreciate it. My Brother is over there and I get letters all of the time saying how he gets thanked on a daily basis.
Our president does not deserve to have that mosaic made on his face- it’s wrong. I liked the idea of putting all of the people we lost during 9/11 on Osama’s face. This is a difficult time on all of us- it’s sad we lost these great HEROE’s and how wonderful it was of them to sacrafice there lives for a cause- which is more then I can say for most of you!! We need to stop whining b/c of every little thing we see on the news and know there is light at the end of the tunnel. I stand behind our President, which is A CHRISTIAN (for all of you that don’t believe it, thats too bad). You know what I hate seeing on the news, is the trials for 9/11- they said we had enough evidence to stop it. Well what if we did all we could, spent tons of money to prevent it- AND THEN NOTHING HAPPEND!!! Wouldn’t you rather be safe then sorry, most people are saying??? Well the same goes for war- we had enough evidence to believe they had weapons they could use against us……. I am glad we are doing something about it then turning our heads (like what Clinton did after the bombing of the USS Cole)
“Dave C.” thanks for what you said- that was one of the best things I’ve read so far. And “Boston”- those quotes were great!! Go Bush!!
Well, since I’m a white boy from south Georgia, redneck’s not racist at all. It’s insulting, and it’s intentionally so, but I’ve grown up with ignorant hicks like you my whole life, so I think I can speak with some level of authority. And do remember that YOU’RE the one who set the tone of this particular little engagement. You’ve made it pretty clear that you’d rather just toss insults back and forth than present one shred of evidence to support your views. And, since that’s what you want, I’m more than happy to oblige.
What makes me laugh the most, other than your sophomoric approach to conversation, is the multiple postings, minutes apart. I can just see you, huddled over your desk, shaking in apoplectic fury, vainly wracking your brain for something else to say. At this point, I’m just in this to make you look as stupid as possible, although I have to admit, you’re doing most of the work all on your own.
Come on back just as soon as you can jumble together a string of disjointed invectives to support your vain endeavour.
But just look at the progess you made, no more bla bla bla. Well you grew up with (hicks ) your hole life. And look at that your still there, too bad you have to surround yourself with so called hicks to make you feel better about yourself. Me Me Me Me Me I I II III. From what I gather I would put you at about 33 to 38,quit going to school and get a job and get out of your mothers basement and get some sunlight. By the way Iam laughing at you so much I keep hitting the send button by mistake. See I dont need a par to say I made a mistake lol. You still havent said what you do (unemployed) perhaps. The evidece is there if you look for it I dont have the time like you do. You should have all numbers to prove someone wrong thats the type of person you are, me I dont care to prove anyone wrong these are just opinons. You or any of hick terms here ( Big Words) are not going the get people to see whatever small world your looking at. Open your eyes and look towards the light get a life.
While we’re on the subject of progress, congratulations! There were actually a few complete sentences in that last message. Did you get someone else to help, or did you do it all by yourself? Hate to break it to you, but you overshot me by about ten years. I’m 25, and, nope, mama’s basement just has a bunch of old junk. And college gave me a chance to get out of that backwater hellhole, thanks to a little federal aid. So I guess YOUR tax dollars helped send me to college! Thanks! As for what I do, I’ve done it all. I flipped burgers in high school, I worked construction and cleaned floors while in college, and now I’m an electrician and lighting designer, working on movies, TV, and stage shows. You probably don’t know what that it. Basically, I get paid a couple grand a pop to go in and tell people where to put lights. I mean, working for Paramount or on Broadway shows isn’t as glamorous as working for Ford, but I get by. That was sarcasm again, by the way.
And, in all honesty, I was never under any illusions about changing your mind. Blind fanaticism has always, and will always, be the exclusive realm of the dumb and brutish. Enjoy life down there at the bottom.
Pat – Awesome response (post 243). I am applauding.
As a student myself I am asking for your insight on the 04 election. I am afraid voting GWB out of office would prematurely end the conflict. No one wants to see more dead bodies. However, these soldiers should not have to be remembered as dying in vain.
Please stop the personal attacks on people in this thread.
Too bad thats not steady work, but youve got time to change, unfortunuly we hold the same background electrician. No its not fancy as dolly wood but Ill take the 160grand yr. If your not under the impression of changing the way people think about the war, you sure put a lot of time into trying to change one opion. But its nice to at 25 you think you have all answers. By the way did you vote in the last elction or do just cry when things dont go your way.
Thed price of freedom is never cheap no free. What it cost pales in comparrison to what it would cost us if we were not free. Just look at what our freedom has cost in the past and present, and whatv the lack of freedom has cost others in the past and preesent.
This is nothing more than an attack on a president who has the courage to fight back against those that have the will and desire to try and take it away from us. War is never popular and the cost of that war is never desireable or tastefull. Yet the end results are. Those that complain and protest about this do not realize how they received this ability. Lets hope that they do in the near future.
It is this hard and terrible cost of freedom that has allowed us to say as we please and why others in the world do not have this right. Wise up and savor the ability to say as you please, but honor those that made the supreme and ultimate sacrifice that gave you that ability.
Whoever made this should make these people and all of the others in history into pictures that honor them and what the died for. This picture is nothing more than a political statement, and using the pictures of these fine people for that pourpose is shamefull and should be considered a crime as such.
Very easy to say what should be done after the fact, What do you do when we get bombed again. Mabe just sit back and do more analyzing for a couple more yrs. When do you draw the line and say enough is enough
Having served 23 years in the Navy and made a second career in an entirly obscure field away from military matters, I have had the chance to sit back and observe our leaders in action. The president, irregardless who he is, can only do just so much. He relys on advisers who are supposed to be specialists in their field. Bad advisers, advisers with their own agenda, and advisers with faulty, little or no intelligence are the reason we have bad leaders or ones who make big mistakes. All that said, my personal opinion is we should let the Iraqi people take over their own government and the coalition forces go home. Only the future, which no one can predict, will show whos right and whos wrong and whether we have decent advisers
Alright, this was amusing for a while, but I’ve got better things to do. We both have our opinions and we both think we’re right. One of us is wrong, but I’m never going to convince you it’s you, and you’re sure as hell never going to convince me it’s me. I’m gonna respect the web host’s request and end this.
i can only agree with the comments by jonas luster, quite apperantly a very well spoken person.
sad to see so many young people dead for making some rich people even richer. One thing I hate about such stats though is that you just ignore the iraqi civilians that are dying. Headlines start like “5 american troops killed in iraq. Then a 5 minute report on the conflict. and at the end of the report. “By the way, 200 iraqi’s have also died”. This mosaic has the same tone for me. What about the iraqi civilians who died? Maybe you didn’t put it because if you do so, instead of a mosaic you will get one big black rectangle.
The majority of people commenting are probably under the age of 40 so have no realistic recall of what war is. We have lost far less men in the short time we have been in Iraq than in the first six months alone either of Korea, WWI, WWII or Viet Nam. All wars, incidentally, that were begun or escalated during the terms of Democrats and – incidentally – with the exception of Japan, were against countries that did NOT attack us or attack US soil. The day after New York City was attacked, “Go after them!” was everyone’s vehement chant. Just because a couple years have past and there have been no further attacks on the US, does that mean 9-11 has lost importance and that the lives we lost then are insignificant? Yes, it is our duty as the world’s number one free nation, to defend freedom not just for us but for those who ask for our help. If we ignore them, how shall we respond when we are ignored, beaten and lost all that ur forefathers fought so bravely to defend over the last 200 years? We have lost little compared with what will be gained – as with any war in which we have taken a stand. My heart goes out to all those who have lost family members – I have lost several – but we live in a free country because we CAN fight for freedom and defend the freedoms we have so fiercely fought for – freedom is the main reason most people move to the United States.
Hope all the lucid minds have registered to vote…www.overseasvote.com can help overseas Americans to register, and enables non-US Citizens to do more than complain – they can send absentee voting info to their overseas American friends…
Trip wire mike, right to the point, I like it
I understand that this a very thought provoking image. It was made for someone to make a point. Although I don’t agree with it this person has a right to give their opinion. A hell of a lot more young men and women died to give them that right. I must say some of these “novels” posted here make me laugh. You have too much time on your hands. If you can’t do anything but put someone down you should not post. It really doesn’t accomplish anything.
Well, we could make one for the 9-11 victims, the 3-11 victims, the Rawanda victims, or the other ~7000 or so who have fallen at the hands of your terrorist heros.
Well, the United States military is definintly lying about casualties, they claim 20 to 30 attacks one a day with 1 deadly casualty, i dont know how you take this but 1 bullet is lethal, not to mention roadside bombs which can kill 2-3-4-5( thats per attack), or RPG’s . Lets have some comparisms.
On Ashura on early march, more than 100 Iraqi’s died in Karbala. You have seen that picture of a mortar round exploding in a crowd. If that made so much casualties, than how would be dozens of mortar attacks on U.S. bases daily, roadside bombs, helicopter crashes.
Also about helicopter crashes; Chechen rebels shot down a Russian helicopter with a Surface to Air missile that made more than 120 kills, there were no survivors.
on the 2nd of November an American Chinook helicopter gets hit by a Surface to Air missile; result? 16 kills , 21 wounded? Hello??? more wounded than kills, I don’t know about you guys, but you should definintly watch war battles and see how these things explode; The missile impact(causes great heat in helicopter) + Ground impact (jump off a building, see what happens with you(not to mention metal parts from helicopter) + Fuel explosion( well this speaks for itself).
The American military doesnt want to give all these information , because americans will criticize the administration; like the POW’s in the early days of war(the government didn’t let domestic american channels broadcast because of criticism)
I ‘m not saying that I like casualties but people, make your minds work.
I believe that there are some 2500-3000 casualties since 18 March 2003.
Thats only my prediction.
Just to let you guys wonder…….
If U.S. stays for 4-5 years , you would have 15000-20000 casualties, and if resistance intensifies.
Lets see, Americans go to Iraq to get rid of Sadam. They do it. Now they want to get rid of the terror in the country. Was there terror there before they got there? Probably not as much as now. The boarders are not being protected so other countries bad guys are coming in. But thats not the biggest problem. [EDIT: Anti-semitic content removed.]
This comment is for the blogger who wrote comment #295 above, in direct response to his last six sentences:
This is the type of distorted, racial hatred and myth-making that not only echoes the insecure, delusional ignorance of the most vicious terrorists and demagogues of past and present, but continually perpetuates, seeks to empower and wrongly facilitates the corrupt and insidious power jockeying and arcane rhetoric of such destructive, degrading, sociopathic misanthropes and maladjusts.
We all understand that this type of language has historically been mitigated and deployed by such manipulative narcissists for the sole purpose of creating a convenient, classic misperception — in order to spread the cancer of their own foul agendas for the sole purpose of self-empowerment at the expense of others (i.e., classic scapegoating, misinformation and deflection from their true purposes — think “schoolyard bullies” and what they’re all about).
We are all onto you and your kind Rod, so kindly crawl back to the cesspool from which you came, and get your vile, ignorant, hate-mongering self back to your maker post haste.
One final note about your resurrection of “The Final Solution” as a work-in-progress: It is both revealing and apres pro that you chose this particular forum to spread your mutating, communicable disease, as there appears to be many here looking to either seek or express political validation, and further demystify their understanding regarding the meaning of contemporary America, our great experiment in democracy, the true value of patriotism and its relevance to the current war in Iraq. This seemingly tame yet viably political forum must truly have appeared to you to be the perfectly pristine, undisturbed, natural and pure body of water in which to dump your toxic waste.
Additional wisdom for fellow readers, patriots and all human beings of good conscience: think for yourself, do your own research, and don’t believe every Tom, Dick, Adolph and Usama that comes along — be a critical thinker, don’t accept the status quo, and always remember — power corrupts (9.5 out of 10 participants observed), and money (like it or not) is the root of all evil.
Most importantly, please don’t forget the golden rule: Do Onto Others As You Would Have Others Do Onto You. As the human race, truly, we all are in this together — don’t let anyone divide and conquer YOU!
If we are paying $3.4 Billion per month for this “war”, sacrificing 12 of our young people per month, and killing thousands of innocent people in their own country, WHY do I pay $3 per gallon of gas? If we are to be accomplices to this plot, WHY are we not sharing the loot?. The United States recentlly GAVE Turkey a huge amount of fuel. WHY not take care of us people first, who are paying the bill so that Bush, Cheney, Runsfeld and their corporate sponsors get filthy rich.
I wouldn’t want any part of such evil enterprise. I am willing to pay the extra amount for the gas if we only stop killing. Mr. Bush, greed is a BAD thing, it comes back and bites on the ASS. Some call it Karma.
Hell! these people are so greedy that they are even overcharging us for their services. They can not stop stealing!
289 – “Yes, it is our duty as the world’s number one free nation, to defend freedom not just for us but for those who ask for our help.”
So you mean to say that we invaded Iraq because the iraqis asked for our help, right? Mmmmm…. I tend to believe that was not the main reason…..
This post is addressed to Joseph of post #240 and anyone in his camp. In the first place, let me take the opportunity to answer the questions you posed to me. One, i am far from anti-Semitic. I am Jewish myself and i support Israel’s undeclared war against the Palestinians. I could not care less about what those [insert derogatory comment for Palestinians here] have to say, Israel has a right to defend itself. Next, you brought up an interesting point about why i still hate Japan even though we are no longer at war with them? I will acknowledge that you have at least some intelligence since you know that we are no longer at war. The thing is, “Joe,” that i know history. And i am not quick to forget it. nations that commit atrocities in my mind do not just get away with an easy “It’s all good, we’re not at war anymore.” You’re type of attitude is what leads people to repeat past mistakes since they’re so quick to forgive and forget. A nation should be held accountable for its actions, whether they were committed today or fifty years ago. i have a long list in my mind of nations i am not in favor of, and Japan and Germany are at the top of the list. i still feel that people who do not support this war do not understand how the world works.
Do we have to wait for terrorists to attack us before we respond? How can anyone with common sense honestly not see the threat Saddam Hussein posed to the United States? Rather than build up a nation with a good economic base from oil, he poured all of Iraq’s funds into developing weapons and, yes, supporting terrorist groups. A man with so much political power – who stood unchallenged because of the sheer fear he inspired into his own people – with access to funds and military equipment is the worst threat to the United States. This person built a career on being a threat from attacking Kuwait to refusing to comply with UN inspectors. The US army should have taken control of Iraq back during the Gulf War. It is a mystery to me why our nation always lets its opponents off so easily. And i will tell you why – because of the international community that you people all value. “America cannot act because the European Union does not support our actions.” Wow. The age of Europe is over. It had its chance for thousands of years before us, and it spent the majority of those years in war. Now it is just a handful of weak countries clinging to old memories of imperial greatness. From a point of view of strength, we do not have to listen to them. From a point of view of common sense, we do not have to listen to them. Terrorism is a threat to us. This is our war. Europe did not suffer a 9/11. In fact, they haven’t suffered anything. They are weak and spineless. Spain suffered a train bombing. I sympathize. But rather than rally up its forces and go after terrorism in renewed spirit – to make sure that those people did not die in vain – they changed their government and are currently withdrawing. Pathetic. That it what the terrorists want. Spain has given in to its demands. And even that is better than France, who only criticizes our policy and acts like a major player in the international arena when it has yet to show that terrorism is even an issue within its borders. When are you people going to take pride in the fact that you are Americans. We do not need Europe to make some positive changes in this world.
And Joe your critique of my entry makes no sense. I never said that the world should be Americanized. i was sticking to the issues at hand. I can’t see how you were able to fit this statement into your “argument”:
“Does it mean American world-domination, in which everyone and everything and I mean everything is ï¿½Americanisedï¿½ to your satisfaction? Does it mean everyone in the world will have to be “white”,”
When the hell did i say everyone was supposed to be white. We are not engaging in a war to Americanize Iraq. We are eliminating a threat to ourselves. And then you have the nerve to call my argument childish when you are going off on irrelevant general tangents. You’re like a bad spouse who make pointless general statements cuz he/she can’t defend her argument with specifics.
I am not an idealist. I wont even stand here and say “there should be peace, peace.. There will never be war.” There will always be war. Because sometimes war is necessary to maintain peace. World War II was a war that had to be fought. The threat of Nazism had to be exterminated. This war on terrorism also has to be fought.
296 I am not into name calling I’ll leave that up to you. I am no fool as you would like people to believe. You on the other hand well I wont go into that. People are not sheep. Bush and you would like them to be though. I speak the truth and you seem to be some what intelligent so you do understand what I have said. You fear the truth but never fear it will come to past you’ll see. When it does you remember this thread. I am alot of things but I’m not a racist. How could I be I have no power to change anyones life. [EDIT: Anti-semitic content removed.]
[EDIT: Anti-semitic content removed.] 299 The feeling I get from you is: Anything that has to do with Anti-Islam you are with it. Do you know anythinmg about Saddam? All you know is what you hear on CNN. I cant stand war mongers. You are historically tied to war it seems you guys cant get enough of it. Patriotism the word stinks. Patriotism killed off the Indians. The same patriots are killing Palistinians and the Iraqi people. Oh and one more thing Kuwait was stolen from Iraq. Kuwait was part of Iraq for 4000 years so dont give me that stuff about Sadam trying to take Kuwait. How can you take something that was already yours. Sadam went into Kuwait because Kuwait was historically a part of Iraq. ENGLAND used Kuwait as a desert mail route from 1775-1889 .During that time the place was barren meaning not that many people lived there.England provided their own security during this time. England supposably gave Kuwait their independence back in 1961 during those years Kuwait was still Iraq. So for you to say Sadam tried to take Kuwait makes you sound real uneducated. Why dont you pick up a book before you type a word.
To Rod, comments #296, #301 and #302 (previously #295, #300 and #301):
You have been duped.
You are not particularly wrong about W, but don’t confuse what is happening in Israel with everything else that has transpired in Iraq — W’s interest in Israel has little to do with Israeli interests — it just looks that way to the uninformed, unresearched and unsuspecting outsider. Let us not forget that the U.N. mandated the state of Israel in 1948 (you mentioned Kuwait had belonged to Iraq, which is true — and by this same reasoning, please do not forget that Israel belonged to the Jews — hence its return by the United Nations in 1948, after more than a millennium of Jewish Diaspora, endless centuries of persecution and then finally horrifying genocide and near extinction, with nearly every nation of the world complicit in their silence and inaction); and also let us not forget that the U.N. simultaneously mandated a Palestinian State (apportioned from smaller and contiguous sections of Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria). Immediately thereafter — on the rebirth of the state of Israel — all surrounding Arab countries attacked the new state of Israel, and a few of the attacking Arab countries lost territory to Israel as a result. This massive attack by so many of the big and strong, Goliath-sized Arab countries against the tiny, Delaware-sized state of Israel yielded negative results for the Arab aggressors.
Syria, Lebanon and Jordan most certainly did not want to comply with the U.N. mandate and charter for a new Palestinian state that would have taken sections of THEIR territory. This, along with extreme anti-Semitism, was indeed all the motivation necessary for the orchestrated attack on Israel. Decade after decade, war declared against Israel after war, invasion after invasion, surprise attack after surprise attack (usually on the highest of Jewish holy days – you guys don’t fight fair) — Israel continuously found itself in the crosshairs of your Arabian friends. Meanwhile, both the Palestinian and Israeli peoples were pawns and rooks to be manipulated on the big middle-eastern chessboard, such strategically located, tiny little sand castles! Who’s kidding whom, in this stupid game?
In recent ensuing decades and increasingly so to this very day, the Palestinians receive incredible amounts of money from sympathizers (individual as well as state donors) but where does all this money go? It is not to help the Palestinian people build hospitals and schools, roads and infrastructure, or to grow food and make clothing — since 1948, few leaders from any Arab country ever said “We must help the Palestinian people help themselves” — no — except in one area and one area only: warfare. The Arab regimes simply could care less about the Palestinian people – they never did and they never will – only insofar as it propels their own agenda for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people as a whole. This has always been the case (ever since Abraham – the very first iconoclast and maverick — broke the idols in Ur and started a spiritual revolution that manifested into the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam). And it always will be the case, until the tribal dictators of these Arab countries share their wealth with their own people, and stop pointing their greedy, fat, bejeweled fingers at Israel. If Israel has had to defend itself against such incredible extremism and hatred since its inception, then you must trace back your pointing finger to yourself and its very first attackers against the U.N. created state of Israel in 1948.
It is this extremism and hatred that is echoed in your words – that of racism and greed, plain and simple, the very basis of all demagoguery and despotism. What power do you have, you ask? – the same as anyone else – the power to think. So why don’t you start doing some of that? It would be a very refreshing surprise, especially to you. How preposterous to purport that American soldiers are giving up their lives so Israel could have Iraqi oil, and even more ridiculous, so Israelis could move to Iraq! Egads! There aren’t any Israelis in the Carlysle Group – it’s the W fellows and the SAUDIS! Oh my, how you must be in shock from hearing that one.
Rod, thou art a malfunctioning parasite, and I do believe that you are completely out of your mind (and if not, a devious propagandist, or more than likely, just a dupe, or maybe even a dogmatic, zealous stooge for Hammas.) Get over it and get real, before they come to get YOU! Or is it just that you so terribly crave that posthumous virgin experience thing, that line of superstitious hocus pocus, sold to mesmerize you and others like you into compliance (and suicide)? Yeah, these are real caring people. “Let them eat cake” types. “Don’t cry for me” types. Get your facts straight, or you just might wind up as a used camel salesman in that great big sand cloud in the sky. Name-calling? The only name we know is yours, Rod. The rest of it is just grammar.
Let it be written, let it be done — nothing you write henceforth on the subject of Israel or of the brave, enduring Jewish people (YOUR unacknowledged ancestors might I add, to whom you’ve made so sad with your stupid scribblings and terrorist cell-like chatter) matters once I finish typing this last period.
READERS, PLEASE NOTE:
I have noticed that comments are now off by one number. For example, Comment #297 was previously comment #296, and comment #296 was actually #295 — when they were written — this is important because comments often refer to previous commentary numbers. This could be quite confusing and misleading, so it would be best to go by the actual names of the writers/bloggers (i.e, “T. Jefferson” responding to “Rod”, then “Rod” responding back to “T. Jefferson”, etc. — ignoring the commentary numbers, which must have been changed by the webmaster.
Also, please note that the webmaster has removed portions of “Rod’s” commentary due to its anti-Semitic nature, but much of my commentary (now as comment #297 responding to comment #296) was based on the virulent hate-speech rhetoric he used (when his comment was still #295). That IS confusing, isn’t it!
A tutti gli Spagnoli (in particolare a quelli a favore del ritiro immediato): Vergogna.
Federico, Rome, Italy.
To all the Spanish people (and particulalry, to the ones favouring an immediate withdrawal of Spanish troops): Shame On You!
على جورج بوش أن يكون أكثر حكمة لأن دماء الجنود يتحملها هو وجدير الذكر أن دموع أمهاتهم وزوجاتهم وأنسبائهم ستنصب غضبا على حضرة جانبه الأرعن …
فليسأل نفسه : هل كان ليرسل نفسه أو ولده لهذه الحرب ؟
please do no teach freedon to the spanish whashington did support franco one of the biger dictateur of the 20C for 40 years ,overs 2 millions of them kill for the glory of america pax
Just as in Vietnam, Cambodia et al – the American people cannot see beyond their own war dead.
TO GIVE SOME OF YOU LIBERALS SOMETHING TO GRUMBLE ABOUT.
Food for thought…
Worst president in history?
The following appeared in the Durham, NC local paper as a letter to the
editor. Please forward to all on your list as this will put things in
Liberals claim President Bush shouldn’t have started this war. They complain
about his prosecution of it. One liberal recently claimed Bush was the
worst president in U.S. history. Let’s clear up one point: We didn’t start the war
on terror. Try to remember, it was started by terrorists BEFORE 9/11.
Let’s look at the “worst” president and mismanagement claims.
FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From
1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
Truman finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never
attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of
John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.
Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were
lost an average of 5,800 per year.
Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never
attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden’s head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated
two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear
inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and
captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. We lost
600 soldiers, an average of 30 a year. Bush did all this abroad while not
allowing another terrorist attack at home.
Worst president in history? Come on!
The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but…
It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the
Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.
We’ve been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less
time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.
It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy
the Medina Republican Guard than it took Teddy Kennedy to call the police
after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.
It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!
Our military and our President are GREAT! PASS IT ON.
Comment #18 is the typical extremist venom of ignorance. Attacks on Japan and on Iraq are in different times and for MUCH different reasons.
I’m getting confused, who replied on #295?
The pro-Bush comments above are very disturbing. No wonder the USA is by far the most hated nation on earth.
To the writers of 300 and 309, I could not have said it better, to the point.
NY Times article “No Time For Bullies: Baboons Retool Their Culture” by NATALIE ANGIER 04.13.04
very interesting article about male baboons gone ‘rogue’ and how the baboon culture changes when they die off because of food poisoning. peace prevails when the mean/rogue males are gone.
this iraq war is bush’s/republican mess…. bush MISLED the american public even w/the queda/iraq connection when there was none.
politics is a dirty business, but the problem here is what bush did was ‘pre-emptive’ war. wmd or not, i believe the democrats would have found a better way to get rid of hussein rather than the deplorable way bush and his administration has ‘done’. getting rid of hussein had always been an issue but no president in his/her right mind would have gotten us involved in this mess in iraq … but we will never really know. let there be no mistake… bush is a liar! on more topics than this! bush ought to have been better versed in iraq history: perhaps he ought to have asked the british about it or cracked a history book.
presidency bush is the result of the supreme court voting him into office. we had a coup for the presidency in the u.s. and it succeeded but nobody seemed to know what was going on except the players in the republican party and florida. oh, what a world…. btw, gore did get the popular vote. bush is an ass (in my eyes) and not the president elected by the people.
there is a wrongness with the way war is thrust upon us when there is ALWAYS a better alternative. but once bush went in to iraq he played the hand whereby wmd must be found; because there was none discovered, for whatever reason, this is bush’s debacle and in my mind he is as a deplorable an idiot like quale was/is.
why does the republican party (process) dredge up idiots who are incapable of communicating w/proper syntax… quale, bush.. surely they have better to offer the voters….
Props to the Writer of #309- that was great and VERY TRUE!!! Bush has done a GREAT JOB!!! I am so tired of hearing people say “but they are dying- get us out” well, these soldiers chose to go to war for Freedom. There is a price for freedom.
EVERYONE MUST READ #309!!!
Can anyone here interpret comment #306 – which is in Arabic – into English?
You asked: “I’m getting confused, who replied on #295? ”
I was not replying to your comment, which is NOW #295. At the time I was responding, your comment was #294 — a comment by “ROD” was #295 at that time. It was to Rod’s comment that I was responding, not yours. That’s why you are getting confused (who wouldn’t?). The blog has been thrown off by one number, so you have to go by the names of the commentators/bloggers instead of by the comment numbers.
NOTE TO READERS:
COMMENT #297 REFERS TO COMMENT #296 BY Rod, NOT COMMENT #295 by some1.
The numbers have since thrown off by one since I wrote my comment.
Also, the portion of Rod’s commentary that I was responding to has since been deleted by the webmaster, due to its racist language. Kudos to the webmaster for running a responsible website and staying on top of things.
How lame that the pictures are used multiple times.
I have read many comments, but haven’t seen any references as to where people are getting there information. As an American trying to make informed decisions on how to exercise my voting rights it scares the HELL out of me to think there are so many eligible voters out there that will help decide the fate of our country on what sounds like our “HOLLYWOOD ELITE”( AND THEIR FOREIGN POLICY EXPERTISE). Instead of focusing on the issues and discussing them everyone (without giving facts and the sources where these facts can be researched ) assumes by posting a message they will sway anyones view point. This should be point – conterpoint. Isn’t that a stimmulating concept. It would be alot more productive than name calling and finger pointing.
As i said in my post #295, America is lying
Take a look here, never denied nor confirmed
To J Foshee: Who has time to cite sources, and keep a stack of books, magazines, newspapers and a bibliography at their side while writing commentary on a blog. Some people here are merely giving their opinions, which they are entitled to do without having to comply with the rules of journalism. It would be NICE to have sources, but no one is twisting anyone’s arm to read or write these things. As far as name calling and finger pointing, that’s going to happen from time to time when people are responding to outrageous remarks. Do your own research to form your opinions — no one can depend solely on a blog site.
Has anyone ever considered how simple it would be to just nuke Iraq. No problems. After 40 or 50 years when the radiation clears up, we can begin a restructuring of the nation from the ground up (literally).
Hey Jake — it’s a darned good thing YOU’RE not running for government office. Your reasoning is straight out of Dr. Strangelove. If you’re not familiar with the film, I highly recommend you rent it. Pay particular attention to the ending.
Vote Bush in 2004!
Jake first off thank you. Thank you for allowing me (us) to get a better understanding where you’re coming from. My intention was never to attack posters on this discussion board personally nor am I enjoying doing that….. far from it, the last thing I want to do is to further split America (go against my fellow American Brother/ Sister) with useless/ senseless agruments.
But and that’s a big BUT you have to realize what you said initially (post #236) doesn’t make much sense at all.
///If i had it my way, the middle east would have long been occupied by us, and then we would not have any trouble with those bastards.///
/// I AM DELIBERATELY REFERRIN TO THEM AS JAPS///
///the Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future
///kill their own children just so you can look at their pictures and feel sorry.///
Those comments are so ridiculous, so out of context and they seem to me lack of any intelligent thought behind them. Granted they are your own. And I’ll be the last person on earth to prevent you from saying (giving) those words on the net or anywhere….. and I did say from my previous post (#240) ///I suggest you restraint yourself from posting on the internet or speaking to another human being for that matter. You sir, are an idiot./// yet that is only a SUGGESTION (from my part), nothing personal. If I did offended you I apologize.
But back to the point I want to make…. and before I do that I want you to know too that I am desperately trying to avoid the kind of the long-drawn-out back and forth I talked about earlier, which unfortunately I will have to do here now.
Let’s condense this conversation and cut to the chase shall we?
You said (post #300),
///let me take the opportunity to answer the questions you posed to me.///
Unfortunately you NEVER did answer the one question (among the many that stemed from that one) I (really) wanted you to reply, ie, How and when are you going to be satisfied by how the world works?
Of course I know you’re going say you aren’t anti-Semitic….. or that you aren’t ‘racist’…… or that you hold no hatred against others….. they’re expected and given and I don’t expect anything less from you. But the point I was trying to make was (and still is) NOT to trivialize your moral standing or your moral judgement as much as I want to explore the reasoning(s) behind your way of thinking or your ‘knack’ if you will with the war and US politics of international issues in general. Are you following me so far?
You see what troubles me in your conversation are things like,
/// I could not care less about what those [insert derogatory comment for Palestinians here] have to say, Israel has a right to defend itself///
/// i have a long list in my mind of nations i am not in favor of, and Japan and Germany are at the top of the list. i still feel that people who do not support this war do not understand how the world works.///
/// This is our war. Europe did not suffer a 9/11.///
In the first instance, I do agree that Israel has an absolute right to defend itself. No questions about it whatsoever. But problem with that is to defend itself against “what”? Japanese? Russians? Mexicans? Palestinians? The first three are obviously out of context to what I’m discussing here… so naturally the forth one, the Palestinians, those ‘pesky’ (in your mind) Palestinians is what Israel has to defend against, right? But is it really? On the surface, blanketing an entire group of folks is only natural and easy to do when they are commiting murder (and I’m not hiding the fact that it is plain o’ heinous murder) en-mass using ‘kamikaze-style’ tactics to advance their cause….. it’s tragic and some may say (me included btw) terror! Yet the fact that indicates ‘some’ Palestinians are commiting murder and terror also indicates the fact that this murderous despicable act(s) is not without cause and not at all the majority of the mindset within the ‘entire’ Palestinian (and to a more general extent Arab) population. You have to realize that.
You HAVE TO care about what the Palestinians have to say. You cannot deny their rights and most importantly because that is in Israel’s best interest. When you are declaring war(s) and erecting fences and building “unpopular” settlements and making your opponent as misable as possible….. no wonder negotiations fail or even a simple dialogue is hard to make between the two sides….. and it would nearly be impossible to have any decent conversation or (much less) to “care about” what the other has to say. And vice versa from the Palestinian perspective. I understand perfectly what you’re coming from but like I said ‘ignoring’ (and “not caring about what the other” is ‘ignoring’) is just not an option that you can choose to make. Because it has tragic consequence.
Negotiations are hard (obviously and in fact history has shown) but without perhaps some compromises and at the very least some mininal ‘respect’, including caring about what the other side has to say– you don’t even need to agree with them but just listen is the very least you can do, goes a long long way…. don’t you think? So by saying… actually more like flaming with the issue, ie, your /// the Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future. They kill their own children just so you can look at their pictures and feel sorry./// or ///insert derogatory comment for Palestinians here/// doesn’t help matter whatsoever and in fact hurts it….. digging deeper and deeper in this life-threatening, instability-inducing, families-suffering hell-hole of “hatred”….. I don’t know how much more direct I can put it. And I’m not only talking in terms of just one side. Both the Israelis and Palestinians have everything to loose. I hope you at least understand that.
Now for the second quote, I’m not a person who’s naive… and I’m certainly not a person who adamantly aren’t in favor of so-called ‘wars’. But you have to realize again, that is it worth the cause and worth the sacrifices for such “action”? I like how one person here on the boards put it (post #249)…. his or her apporach on war is similar to my line of thinking as well, particularly the ‘last resort’ part. You say it is (worth the sacrifices) with the explanation that it will damper the threat from terrorism (right?) but I ask you are we (ie the current ‘American crusade’) really doing that? Is that what the reality is (like) in the world today? That is why I asked you the question of your opinion of how the world works… and I do mean HOW it works. And I’ll tell you right now that it is NOT black and white. It is NOT either I’m with you or I’m against you. It is NOT the word Palestinian or Arab or Afghani or Iraqi or Islam or Muslim synonymous with the word “terrorist” or “terrorism”. It is NOT as easy as going into a campaign of “(decades old) regime change” with only few months of planning, with unilateral grounds even though you have the most powerful military institution on earth. It is NOT a quick and easy task to instill the education and principles of “freedom” or “democracy” into a world that historically is otherwise but not only that its principles and values is vastly different… and different in a way that we cannot even imagine. Not that I’m saying their ways of doing things over there are right or wrong (in fact if they (middle easterners) are as miserable and horrible as you had suggested, ie, your /// Middle East is the only place where the people have absolutely no concern for peace or the future. They kill their own children…./// then how could their culture and their people from the Turks to Persians or from the Saudis to Kurds survived for millennia (a bit of a stretch but you get the idea) …. mind you they live on a region that had the oldest civilization on earth. They must be doing something ‘right’ or at least doing something ‘constructive’, right?) …..again I hope you put in some good thought into these kinds of issues before you make judgement….. alright?
Look, contrary to what you believe, I’m not entirely against your opinion either.
///You’re type of attitude is what leads people to repeat past mistakes since they’re so quick to forgive and forget. A nation should be held accountable for its actions, whether they were committed today or fifty years ago. i have a long list in my mind of nations i am not in favor of, and Japan and Germany are at the top of the list. i still feel that people who do not support this war do not understand how the world works. ///
I might be a person gulity of ‘forgiveness’ but certainly NOT ‘forgetful’. I do understand and learn and know the history of the two world wars and the history leading up to them. I’m not in anyway an expert on it but at least I do know the atrocities commited by the “enemy states” (ie Japan and Germany) ….and you might be suprised to know that I am very much in favor of World War 2 and I do recognize that our way of life, our democracy, our freedom was genuinely threathened (but unfortunately I cannot say the same in today’s context) and we just needed to do something about it. You’re right, nations need to be held accountable… in fact individuals need to be as well, just as a guilty murderer needs to be sentenced and punished. But just as Japan and Germany was guilty of their crimes, unfortunately, Israel and the United States are awfully close in terms of committing similar acts. Now, before you get all rattled up and use that as a quote to condemn my words, hear me out. You have to think in these issues in the most basic of terms. You have to recognize that Palestinians, Iraquis, Afghanis and others are just like you and I, human beings. I’m not saying that as some cheezy cliche but to point out to you that the reality is Palestinians suffer from this conflict, the Iraquis and the Afghanis as well are tens of hundreds or even thousands of times worse than any september 11 or any single terrorist suicide attack. Because the technology gap between America or Israel and their “enemies” (I’m not talking about Al Queda terrorists but just the conventional enemy soldiers) has such a big gap, the line between the action of “defending” and “committing atrocity” is very thin and often it is blurred that we mere ‘observers’ may never know the truth…. what really is happening out there. It is a concern. Now am I saying that the US has committed atrocities so far in the Iraq conflict? No I’m not. Am I suggesting that we should stop all military intervention around the world (ie stopping all combat operations on terrorism and let Osama and his goons run free)? Of course NOT. But what I’m saying again is that we must think about these kinds of issues more carefully and really think about them seriously. 3000 people lost their lives on a terrible terrible day but what are we willing to do to take vengence against that attack? How far are we willing to go? Does it make sense to deploy special forces in foreign countries to eliminate the enemy? Or does it make sense to deploy a large chunk of the army to occupy a country? Or does it make sense to drop 2 big ones, just like the ones on Japan ending that conflict? What do you think make sense?
And finally, your third quote.
I’m sorry but you’re wrong. Europe did suffer 911 and not only Europe, Southeast Asia (specifically the Indonesian night club bombing…. btw it took place in one of the largest Muslim populated countries in the world) and countless other terror acts instigated by Al Queda and similar groups.
Look, the simple fact of the matter is terrorists know no bounds. They operate in Afghanistan, they operate in Spain and they operate in the United States. That is what we are fighting against. Not muslims, not Arabs, not Iraq, not Afghanistan. Are you starting to get the idea?
/// We do not need Europe to make some positive changes in this world.///
You need EVERYONE to make positive changes in this world. If we care more about our egos than the real “greater good” of the world (world as in earth, not just within the boundaries of the United States of America or Israel) then it doesn’t matter how many times we carpet bomb our ‘enemies’, doesn’t matter how long the campaign is, doesn’t matter how powerful we can develop our weapons or how superior ours from ‘them’, or how many soldiers are deploying, we couldn’t possibly win. The prize is PEACE and to a lesser extent ‘freedom’ ….. Bush is right on with his words but his action speaks otherwise. You have to realize that.
That is why I asked the question(s),
–How and when are you going to be satisfied by how the world works? ie, when can we finally enjoy ‘peace’?
–Does it mean American world-domination, in which everyone and everything and I mean everything is “Americanised” to your satisfaction? ie, does that mean the rest of the world have to bow their heads towards “America” in order to survive?
–When are you going to be satisfied so there won’t ever be military campaigns anymore? ie, just like the question asked… when can we finally get our prize of ‘peace’ and ‘freedom’ that we worked so hard to fight for?
–How are you going to end this so-called “threat” by terrorism or whatever the (external) entity it may be and finally be satisfied enough to change that ‘t’ word into something otherwise (examples of Germany and Japan comes to mind to what I’m getting at)? ie, when can we finally call Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran etc etc. our ‘ally’ instead as the ‘enemy’ or ‘axis-of-evil’?
…..and btw I insinuated that you are “racist” since you tend to poorly convey your words (or it could very well be who you are since I really don’t know you) ……ie I said,
///Does it mean everyone in the world will have to be “white”, since you brought up and in fact endorsed the “Jap” comment and as far as I know currently we are NOT at war with Japan so why there is still a hatred towards them is beyond me?///
Your less than flattering comments and your uncompromising terms (ie, DELIBERATELY REFERRIN… or insert derogatory comment) on Arab Palestinians and Japanese folks alike gives us, the reader, with no choice but to judge you for what you are- a racist.
I’m sorry but evidence speaks for itself. Unless you explain further.
Ok, I’ve said what I wanted to say. Feel free to vent me.
To Nr 317 ,
You ask somebody to traduced what I said, so I can do it …
Arabic : على جورج بوش أن يكون أكثر حكمة لأن دماء الجنود يتحملها هو وجدير الذكر أن دموع أمهاتهم وزوجاتهم وأنسبائهم ستنصب غضبا على حضرة جانبه الأرعن …
فليسأل نفسه : هل كان ليرسل نفسه أو ولده لهذه الحرب ؟
English : ” George Bush must be wiser in his stupid decisions, he is the reponsable of the blood pours by the soldiers in Iraq, while never not forgetting the tears of their wives und their mothers, revenge will be close. What it requires same, dares he go in Iraq like soldiers ? dares he send his child like soldier to this war?”
He should stop to support the Zioniste !!! When you want many info :
I was in Q8 for the last 4 weeks before the war and the first few days of the war. Met up with a lot of (very) young men and women from both Britain and the US ( Sorry Aussies I missed you) They were well motivated and prepared to do the dirty work for political failures. But many many of them , especially the US boys asked me the same question ‘Do you think we should be here’ They are the only ones who can say if it was right or wrongly run. Yes some of them died, maybe needlessly in some cases. But that has always been the way of war. My answer was always the same’ Saddam is a murdering gobsh**e who needs stopping’ And that is the fact. It may be that GB and Tony have lied, that is not a shock surely, even George Washington fixed his expenses. Politicians lie, anyone who thinks different can buy this bridge in Brooklyn that I have for sale. The Fighting men and women did their duty as best they could, they deserve total support and sympathy. But the picture makes a statement they may not agree with. Maggie Thatcher had killed hundreds of Argentinian sailors, my opinion only. Thanks to the Forces I have the right to that opinion. Now the Iraqis have it too, may they remember why they have it, and who paid its heavy price
Andrew- would you say “only 600” if one was your sister? If it was “only one” it would be too many.
Phil your #329 if I may,
///They were well motivated and prepared to do the dirty work for political failures. But many many of them , especially the US boys asked me the same question ‘Do you think we should be here’ They are the only ones who can say if it was right or wrongly run. Yes some of them died, maybe needlessly in some cases. But that has always been the way of war. My answer was always the same’ Saddam is a murdering gobsh**e who needs stopping’ And that is the fact. It may be that GB and Tony have lied, that is not a shock surely, even George Washington fixed his expenses. Politicians lie, anyone who thinks different can buy this bridge in Brooklyn///
The thing is just like what you have said, the “action” already took place and because we can never turn back the clock to undo what’s done or (still) doing…. we can only do our very best and hope for a better outcome in a very difficult situation. Sympathy and support for the troops are only natural and certainly deserved.
Yet the problem I’m trying to raise is, let’s be blunt about this, when are we going to stop voting for Bush? When are we, as the American public– the ultimate decision maker, going to prevent some dumbass making stupid decisions at the expense of us (our own pockets, our own lives, our own children, our own economy, our own freedom etc etc.)
You mentioned political failure…. you’re right but you also failed to mention how that failure came into place and you hadn’t gone far enough to realize that very failure should be and is the focal point here ….. answer me this, are YOU going to vote for Bush in office in the coming election? Because if you are then everything you pointed out about supporting the troops and all that ‘jazz’ are nothing but lies and frankly pointless.
Look, political failure is the problem here. If Bush hadn’t directed resources and troops to Iraq…. if Bush had waited (for another year for example) for UN approval and backing of the international community….. if Bush hadn’t squandered whatever the last remaining “surpluses” we had from the Clinton handover…. if Bush wasn’t too keen on satisfying his obligations to (his) God more than his obligations to the greater American public…… if Bush is doing his job as what a president is supposed to be (ie, at least competent) then perhaps I wouldn’t be as critical of him as I am now. In fact the country wouldn’t be as divided and “fucked up” as it is now…. pardon my language.
Why do you think we have the 911 commission? Why do you think the whistle blowers finally come out from under the rocks and go public with their books to finally tell the truth….. I can tell you right now it has little (or nothing) to do with the events of 911 or the war on terror…. it has everything to do with the war on Iraq. The blunder on Bush’s decision to go to Iraq is what sparked the 911 commission…. everybody, deep down inside, knows we could never have prevented 911 with the kind of inefficient system of the CIA or FBI or whatever intelligence community we had in place in those days and frankly from top to bottom everyone failed in some way and everyone was responsible but nobody would be stupid enough to admit to anything… let alone finding the gulity through some ad hoc committee. If Bush had been more competent and intelligent enough to do a better job on the Afghanistan front, ie, perhaps by now we would’ve killed or captured Bin Laden and other senior members of Al Queda, the 911 commission would never have been necessary. If all our resources had been directed towards the ‘noble’ cause of (really) fighting terrorism then 500 plus soldiers wouldn’t had died on Iraqi soil and billions would’ve been saved or maybe directed towards the Afghan front.
The bottom line is the replacement for W Bush’s presidency is as easy as going to your next door neighbour and have him or her to run for the country. I’m pretty sure the country is going to get better because of it.
In response to post# 309 Subject: Worst President in History?
The writer of post #309 said “FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: ! Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112, 500 per year.”
My response: Any student of US Naval history knows that the Germans not only
declared war on the US on December 11 1941, Italy did also, and German U boats began attacking inside US waters within days.
Operation Drum, the German UBoat campaign, was succesful in conducting attacks inside jacksonville, NY and the
Deleware water gap during early 1942
– Of course if you logically listen to the writer of post #309, we should have left Nazi Germany alone.
The author of post #309 says “Truman finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never
attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per year.
My response: That’s true, but irrelevant. South Korea was a US ally, asked for help in the UN, and UN forces led the campaign to repel NK, and later Chinese troops.)
#309 says: “John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never
attacked us. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives
were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.”
My response: Most people regard Vietnam as a disaster, leading to the loss of
50,000 decent Americans and billions in dollars.
#309 says: Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent . Bosnia
never attacked us.
My response: Actually Clinton had UN consent to act to stop the civil war in Bosnia.
#309 says: “In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has
liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear
inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and
captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. We lost
600 soldiers, an average of 300 a year. Bush did all this abroad while not
allowing another terrorist attack at home.
My response: “If, by ‘liberated two countries” you mean Afghanistan and Iraq, I would disagree. Afghanistan is under the control of regional warlords, most of whom were allies of the Taliban. Mohammad Karzai, while nominally in charge of the state has a total army of less than 9000 men, and controls very little of the actual country outside of Kabul.
As for al-Qaeda, they are still operating in Afghanistan and Pakistan, something Bush knew before he started this mess in Iraq.
Libya has admitted it had a nuclear program. But it’s not clear that they ever were close to producing even a single weapon.
Iran and North Korea’s have not been consistently and fully cooperative with ANY international inspection regime. I wouldn’t call that a success.
As for Saddam being captured, you forget that we was an ally of ours under Bush Jr.s father all the way up to the start of the first Gulf War. The 300,000 Iraqis that you say he killed apparently didn’t bother the conscience of Bush Sr. or Bush Jr.
Anyone reading this should first look at number 309. Awesome.
Joseph…we are both grown men and since weve exchanged a number of heated responses on this subject, it is safe to say that we are past the stage of lying to each other. So, number 1, i will not conceal the fact that i do not like you and your idealistic approach to eevrything. Number 2, im not going to conceal the fact that i only skimmed your last article since it is just so long and boring to read. I already knew your viewpoints. However, i must admit that you and this has entertained me to a great degree these past few days. Everyday, my two online activities now involve checking my stocks and checking this board to see what else you have written that i can object to. So thank you for that. And now back to our debate…
I have to start with your comments on the Palestinians. In the first place, i dont recognize that they are like me. In fact, i am repulsed by any association with them. Number 2, i dont acknowledge theyre so-called pain and suffering. Who are you kidding? They bring all their problems upon themselves. Israel has tried to make agreements with them in the past, going so far as to even offer them the west bank for territory. The palestinians dont want to negotiate. They want to make outrageous demands to draw this conflict out – hence my statement that they dont care about promoting peace or tryign to resolve this conflict in the middle east. Do you know that in 1948, when the United Nations created Israel, it offered to create a homeland for the Palestinians, but of course they refused. They wanted all of Palestine, and the other Muslim nations assured them that they could have it after Israel got defeated. However, im very sorry to say Joseph that Israel kind of screwed up their plans when it never got defeated. And now the Palestinians want a country that they refused all along. You want to know what their demands are from Israel – a nation created out of Israel with half of Jerusalem. You think its reasonable that Israel give up half of its holy city?? The Palestinians dont deserve Jerusalem. It has no significance for them. Their holy cities are Mecca and Medina, and even if Jerusalem was a holy city, who has the MUCH older religion? So, in my eyes, if youve got the Palestinians saying that they wont settle for anything short of a handout of land of the utmost historical and religious importance, then that means that they simply want to keep this conflict going. Which they do. I dont care what you say. Those suicide bombers are being recruited from the ranks of the Palestinians. Youre problem is that your disillusioned. You draw some kind of line between terrorist networks acting in Israel (like Hamas) and the Palestinian people. To quote you, my friend, the world is not BLACK and WHITE. There is no such line. Hamas can operate because the people support it. When Israel assassinated a Hamas leader, the people turned him into a martyr – as if he was a national hero. That sounds promising doesnt it? So dont tell me to listen to them because, personally, ive been through with that. Im all too happy that finally Israel has started to fight terror with terror. And Bush’s recognition of Israel’s right to defend itself is just another reason for me to support him.
How far should we go in Iraq? I think that was your question, paraphrased. Until we have stamped out all internal rebellion in the country. When those people in Fallujah – and i am restraining myself from calling them any names here because i want to avoid you using it as a large part of your article since you really have nothing else to talk about – brutally murdered those four contractors, our military sieged the city. That is what we should do. That was a right step. Any fundamentalist, any pro-saddam faction that has displayed its intent to use violence to oppose our efforts must be eliminated. Its a threat not only to our forces but also to the Iraqi people who oppose Hussein. And if that means that we have to destroy certain cities, risk certain casualties, bring more troops to Iraq, then so be it. Part of the reason that our troops are getting killed is because were taking so much “precautions.” Precautions everywhere. If we struck out at full strength, what chance do a couple of terrorists stand against our forces? How many of our troops would die then? Not a lot. But because people like you are calling for “restrainment” – “for less civilian casualties in Iraq” and what not – our army casualties are making up for the difference. In war, its them or us. War technology has changed. The principle hasnt. Its a sad fact of life. But it is them or us. If we take it easy on them, our troops will suffer. But in response to your question, we have to keep going until we are done. Notice how in Afghanistan there is barely any resistance to our troops. Even the military tribes of the mountains – who are out of reach of the control of the new government there – dont mind the changes in the nation as long as they are left alone. The taliban is gone and the country is becoming stable. When Iraq is pacified to that extent, then we can move on to other nations….and i hope we do move on to other nations and continue with this war on terrorism. Our unforeseen halt in Iraq has resulted in our actions is being viewed as simply a war on Iraq. Its still very much a war on terrorism. Its been hindered slightly. But as long as Bush is in office it will succeed eventually. And ill be there to give Bush that vote to keep him in office and finish what he started.
Jake I’ll just forget about your opinion on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, since it seems to me your bias has consumed you to the point of senselessness…. so I’ll just talk about your comment on the Iraq war.
///strength, what chance do a couple of terrorists stand against our forces? How many of our troops would die then? Not a lot. But because people like you are calling for “restrainment” – “for less civilian casualties in Iraq” and what not – our army casualties are making up for the difference.///
Are you kidding me? If the US military policy, at its very core, fundamentally, is just like how you described it, then the military is screwed. Forget about being the greatest military power on earth. It’s a circus, and I’m not exaggerating.
Look, why would any commander/ general/ chief jeopardize the lives of our men and women in uniform for civilians? It’s the most basic ‘rule’ any military person can testify to…. is to protect our own FIRST and above all else. Do you think for one second that any military campaign would consider saving some iraqi child or woman over the lives of a convoy of troops, for example?
The military, in terms of planning and executing for a campaign, doesn’t give a rat’s ass about anyone and especially the “enemy”, except perhaps how to eradicate them. This is what “war” is all about. It’s what the reality of war is about….. That is why I’m so adamant about going into a war as only the last resort after all other avenues are exhausted. War is not a joke, my friend.
And history proves that once war has started, civilians and innocent folks have alot to lose and they WILL lose, regardless of a little peace-protest-rally might say or some computer nerd like me say about ‘restrainment’ or call for ‘precautions’….. because once war starts, all hell breaks lose. Any person that tells you any side who involved in a war isn’t gulity of any human rights violations is lying to their teeth. America is no different. From WW2 to Korea to Vietnam to Gulf to the current war in Iraq, civilians have alot to lose and America is just as guilty as the enemy… it doesn’t make it any better if coalition troops die in huge numbers or face a humiliating defeat in battle….. civilians will die and suffer. The ONLY way to prevent that and to counter it is NOT going to war in the first place. Do you get it?
It doesn’t matter if you like me or not. It doesn’t matter if you hate me or not. It doesn’t matter if you think I’m nothing but an idealist. The facts are there and the reality is not as what you think it is. Perhaps you should be the one who is guilty of the things you accused me of.
///And if that means that we have to destroy certain cities, risk certain casualties, bring more troops to Iraq, then so be it.///
Look again, we ARE doing that already. That is what we are doing this very minute, this very second in Falluja or Baghdad or wherever…. do you think even for a second that coalition troops are lenient towards the “enemy” just to save some innocent Iraqi family from harm? Iraq itself is in chaos and if you hadn’t heard the news by now, it’s a hell hole over there. People rather die than live. It’s that desperate. It’s that miserable. And you even dared to suggest that the Iraqis are happy about their present situation. Sure, Saddam’s gone but don’t you realize that they want coalition troops, American troops gone too, just as bad as they want Saddam’s regime out of their lives. You might say Iraqis are ungrateful bastards who take advantage of the situation, we got rid of Saddam for them but we get little in return….. still that is the ‘reality’ of it. We spend billions and billions and our boy’s lives to acheive some goal but don’t think for a second that it will be appreciated with open arms. It’s not black and white.
But then so what? Do we really need their appreciation for our efforts? What is our agenda over there really? To get rid of Saddam for them? To make a regime change and that’s it? To combat terrorism and that’s it? And if that’s the case then we don’t need to change anything (from our present situation) do we? Because if that was the case then we don’t need to force change in people’s hearts and minds, that change will come eventually when it is done right and when “freedom” and “democracy” finally reigns in Iraq one day. Then I ask you, Jake, can you honestly tell me that is what we are really doing over there? That oil and greed and other more sinister agenda has nothing to do with our presence in today’s Iraq?
Tell me I’m wrong…. correction, prove to me I’m wrong…. so that I can get a little more faith back from what little I have left for the America of today.
btw if we are having this conversation, I would think you at least have the common courtesy of reading EVERYTHING (or at least most of it) that the other has written. But I guess you didn’t and you will not.
Then I must warn you because our ‘dabate’, if you can even call it that, is pointless and frankly stupid.
So I hope you will do both of us a favor and catch up on our conversation so we wouldn’t look ‘stupid’.
Good day Jake
btw I just noticed this beauty from you,
///Notice how in Afghanistan there is barely any resistance to our troops. Even the military tribes of the mountains – who are out of reach of the control of the new government there – dont mind the changes in the nation as long as they are left alone. The taliban is gone and the country is becoming stable.///
What kind of news have they been feeding you? What planet did you just come back from?
Stable? Afghanistan stable? Haha you’re joking right? but since you seem to be so serious in your words, I guess you’re not.
The situation in Afghanistan is just as chaotic as in Iraq, my friend….. open your eyes and pay attention. It’s so desperate over there that it needs the help of Pakistani troops to fight the ‘terrorists’ in Afghanistan. Now why would rich and powerful nations like America and Britain need the help of some banana republic country is my question. If everything had been under control, wouldn’t you think Bush would jump right in and bask in the limelight like some beach buff soaking the sun for a good tan? The word Afghanistan was used like one or two times in his latest public address if you had noticed…. need I say more?
And the lack of the news from the Afghan front doesn’t mean everything is A-ok and ‘under control’…. in fact if you really think about it, it is the opposite. That maybe we are having a little trouble over there ‘fighting’ and ‘defending’.
Boy, I do hope you get it by now. Sometimes you’re too much.
And do you know why there might be barely any resistence to OUR troops? Coz everyone’s in Iraq! But I assure you there are plenty of resistence against the Canadian, British, Italian, French, Austrailian, Pakistani (among many others) troops over at Kabul and other places.
can america go on a three front war|(north korea deinng the 3rd|)?
excuse for the my english. i have find this blog on the web road….
in the picture i’d added Iraquien’s soldier and civilian + SPanish + Italian + English +Ukraine + more..
all people that dead in Iraq, are dead in the name of Bush.
Jake your #300,
///How can anyone with common sense honestly not see the threat Saddam Hussein posed to the United States? Rather than build up a nation with a good economic base from oil, he poured all of Iraq’s funds into developing weapons and, yes, supporting terrorist groups. A man with so much political power – who stood unchallenged because of the sheer fear he inspired into his own people – with access to funds and military equipment is the worst threat to the United States. This person built a career on being a threat from attacking Kuwait to refusing to comply with UN inspectors. The US army should have taken control of Iraq back during the Gulf War. It is a mystery to me why our nation always lets its opponents off so easily. And i will tell you why – because of the international community that you people all value. “America cannot act because the European Union does not support our actions.” ///
Then why did “Daddy” failed in that attempt in the first place? Because of the EU? Come on, are you insane or something?
The first Gulf War back in the early 90s failed to get Saddam because us Americans, under Senior Bush’s direction, refused to step foot on Iraqi soil after the Kuwait liberation. Learn your history my friend. I’m not going to tell you everthing here since you wouldn’t listen to me anyway and I don’t want to waste the time and energy lecturing you on modern political realities, which you can easily learn yourself in any local library.
And you ask why he was “unchallenged”, ask yourself, really you should…. you’re an American citizen right? The Iraqi people are asking you, the great American ‘liberator’, the ones who have the resources and power to ‘challenge’ the regime, why you failed them in 1991? Why you, with the big ideas of getting rid of Saddam, failed the Iraqi people when they were ready to fight for their own freedom, risking their very own lives but in the end were left hanging for certain death when not a single American soldier would intervene in their “cause”? Huh why?
///It is a mystery to me why our nation always lets its opponents off so easily. ///
No not the EU unfortunately Jake.
It’s 100% unequivocally “Daddy’s” fault.
The last comment about all of the dead being included in the Bush picture makes a lot of sense. It also backs up Joseph’s point about war and its atrocities. I don’t feel the need to prove any points as the picture above proves it them all. Anyone who argues with that. Well, it’s just unfortunate. Perhaps someday we will all wake up and realize that the hole only gets bigger when it comes to war and that we’d be much better off if we filled it up with compassion and support for ALL people so that leaders like Osama, Saddam and Bush would never come to be.
I am a future member of the US military and believe that freedom is steeped in the blood of those who perished. I ask PhotoMatt and every other person against the war, you have the stones to ridicule our government but do you have the stones to stand up and defend our country for the right to speak against the government that gives you that freedom.
Yes, I do have the “stones”. But we are not fighting for our freedoms in Iraq. That is the sad point.
///I am a future member of the US military and believe that freedom is steeped in the blood of those who perished. I ask PhotoMatt and every other person against the war, you have the stones to ridicule our government but do you have the stones to stand up and defend our country for the right to speak against the government that gives you that freedom. ///
Ryan, we were attacked on September 11, 2001. I wholeheartedly agree in capturing and killing ALL who are responsible for that attack.
We were attacked in Yemen left a huge hole on the USS Cole and cost the lives of some of our boys and girls in the service. I wholeheartedly agree in capturing and killing ALL who are responsible for the that attack.
Oklahoma City was never the same after 9am April 19, 1995. Over 150 people were killed in that incident. I wholeheartedly agree in capturing and killing ALL who are responsible for that attack.
Now for Iraq. I do not have a problem with the concept of liberating Kuwait. I do not have a problem with the concept of ousting Saddam from power in Iraq.
Yet the reality and history dictates that we succeeded in the liberation of Kuwait but failed in ousting Saddam from power (at least from the 90-91 campaign). The cost of that failure is the mistrust and “hatred” towards the west but Americans in particular from the Iraqi masses. Now fast forward a decade or so later, all of a sudden the son of Saddam’s arch enemy declares a messed up, unorganized, unsupported, quick-to-act, unclear-objective war on Iraq. They say we’re fighting terrorism- but evidence tells us there are more Saddam loyalists than any Al Queda or Al Queda-like operatives in Iraq. They say Iraq has WMDs- and obviously evidence tells us otherwise and now they even changed their wording, basically they have no choice but to eat their own words. And many other failures and blunders that I don’t want to waste my time on.
Now how could I wholeheartedly agree on that?
And most importantly, now that you have a better understanding of where I stand, how can you question my loyalty towards this great country of ours? The “stones” are always there, you just need to realize them.
I HAVE JUST RECEIVED THE RESUME OF GEORGE W. BUSH FOR CONSIDERATION. I have verified that all his statements are true, and indeed are true facts of record.
After careful consideration, I have determined that Mr. Bush is not qualified for the job in question, and therefore must regrettably reject him as a candidate for the position. However, we will keep his resume on file, and should a similar position arise in the future, we may give his resume and qualifications serious consideration once again.
GEORGE W. BUSH
The White House,
Washington DC, USA
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:
I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history.
I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.
I set the all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market, in my first year in office.
I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.
After taking the entire month of August 2001 off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.
I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.
I’ve made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.
I withdrew from the World Court of Law.
I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history.
In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job.
I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Convention.
I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.
The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).
I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.
Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The ‘poorest’ multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her).
I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.
I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president since the advent of television.
I took the world’s sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
I cut health care benefits for war veterans.
I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in US history.
I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.
I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.
I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.
I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
I attacked and took over two countries.
I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the Treasury.
I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.
I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.
I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.
I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1).
I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.
I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.
I am the first US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate neighbor, North Korea.
I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts.
I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.
In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil war.
I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.
RECORDS AND REFERENCES:
I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).
I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.
I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my father’s library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.
For personal references, please speak to my dad or uncle James Baker (They can be reached in their offices at the Carlyle Group where they are helping to divide up the spoils of the US-Iraq war and plan for the next one.)
Bottom line, this is an extremely moving picture. This president has played on our fears from 9-11 to justify attacking Iraq. For those of you out there who just don’t get it, “AL QUAIDA” attacked us on 9-11. Not Iraq. And if you honestly believe Saddam to be the only dictator on the planet to torture and hurt, even kill his own people, you are insane. What about Castro? Hmmm….
As far as the comparisons to WWII, here’s one for you. What if FDR had attacked Mexico after Pearl Harbor instead of the Japenese. Hmmm…..doesn’t make much sense does it?
///As far as the comparisons to WWII, here’s one for you. What if FDR had attacked Mexico after Pearl Harbor instead of the Japenese. Hmmm…..doesn’t make much sense does it? ///
Oh it makes sense alright…. to Jake and Bush Jr it does :p
sorry couldn’t help myself~
Personally, I think it’s very disrespectful to those who died and to their families to use their pictures as a mosaic of Bush’s face. There are thousands of other images they could they have thought of. How about an American flag instead?
I will carry it with me every day. I will thank each and every soldier with a prayer for them and their families. I can’t see the “big picture” maybe it is the medium used to design it…I never liked blood red!
Why don’t you use your time to send care packages or support the troops that are over there, BEFORE their picture ends up on this list… How ignorant to blame Bush. You people are blaming the WRONG MAN. He sisn’t cause 9/11. He wasn’t in office when WE let the terroists into the country… when WE trained them how to fly… He just got left to clean it up and catch the blame… you wanna help? here’s how to help:
The American Red Cross is launching Treasures for Troops, an exciting year round program that offers a way for Americans to brighten the day for deployed men and women in uniform serving overseas. You can provide troops with a gift from home with a $20 donation to the American Red Cross Treasures for the Troops program. Details at: http://www.trianglearc.org/afes/treasuresfortroops.htm
Operation Hero Miles: In September 2003, the Pentagon started giving soldiers stationed in Iraq two-week leave periods in the largest R & R program since the Vietnam War; the soldiers can fly to Germany or Baltimore Washington International Airport for free, but they are responsible for the cost of flights to their final destination. Returning soldiers often have to purchase high-priced, last-minute airline tickets so they can spend time with their family. You can help American troops travel home to spend quality time with their loved ones. For more information, please see: http://www.heromiles.org/index.html
Contribute to “Gifts from the Homefront” Certificates from the Army Air Force Exchange System (AAFES). These allow you to send a gift certificate to a loved one, family member or friend associated with the military. These certificates are redeemable by authorized patrons of the PX/BX and are redeemable at all locations around the world including deployed areas. For more information, please see: http://www.aafes.com/docs/homefront.htm.
Donate to”Operation USO Care Package” at http://www.usocares.org/home.htm.
The Gift of Groceries program at http://www.commissaries.com/certificheck/index.htm helps meet the family needs of our Guard and Reserve troops fighting the war on terrorism.
Donate a calling card to help keep servicemembers in touch with their families at Operation Uplink at http://www.operationuplink.org/
Send a greeting via e-mail through Operation Dear Abby at http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/ or http://www.OperationDearAbby.net
Sign a virtual thank you card at the Defend America Web site at http://www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html
The “Stars and Stripes” newspaper includes a daily “”Messages of Support” section giving family and friends of deployed service members a chance to pass along greetings, announcements, and words of encouragement. Such messages (LIMITED TO 50 WORDS OR LESS) will be printed on a first-come, first-run basis. Messages may be sent to: firstname.lastname@example.org.
Make a donation to one of the military relief societies:
Army Emergency Relief at http://www.aerhq.org/
Navy/Marine Relief Society at http://www.nmcrs.org/
Air Force Aid Society at http://www.afas.org/
Coast Guard Mutual Assistance at http://www.cgmahq.org/
Special Operations Warrior Foundation at http://www.specialops.org/contribute.html
Support the American Red Cross Armed Forces Emergency Services at http://www.redcross.org/services/afes/
Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors at http://www.taps.org
National Military Family Association at http://www.nmfa.org
Purchase a Patriot Bond at http://www.ustreas.gov
Volunteer at a VA Hospital to honor veterans who bore the lamp of freedom in past conflicts.
Reach out to military families in your community, especially those with a loved one overseas.
The support and generosity of the American people has touched the lives of the more than 300,000 service members deployed overseas.
Check #345 — it’s amazing! Very sad too, like picture.
Um… Has anyone sent this image to congress?
Even as an Aussie, I was deeply moved. So senseless.
///Why don’t you use your time to send care packages or support the troops that are over there, BEFORE their picture ends up on this list… How ignorant to blame Bush. You people are blaming the WRONG MAN. He sisn’t cause 9/11. He wasn’t in office when WE let the terroists into the country… when WE trained them how to fly… He just got left to clean it up and catch the blame… ///
Care to explain further? Because it seems to me you’re ambiguous in your line of thought.
I never said Bush was responsible for 911, if he was my sentiment towards him would’ve been the same as how I feel about Bin Laden– capture and execute. But I’ll give you one thing, WE are to blame for intelligence failure and that goes from the very top, The President (regardless of administration) to the average folk like you and I who didn’t really cared or pay any attention about the ‘state of the world’ we were in (before 911 for instance).
We ain’t talkin’ about 911! Dammit! Don’t you get it by now? This is about Iraq and the Iraq war. This is about the war in Iraq that nobody can say what the ‘real’ objectives are. Is this about terrorism? Doesn’t seem like it. Is this about WMDs? Doesn’t seem like it. Is this about regime change? I think it is but certainly the Iraqi masses and what the Bush administration told the world before did not think it was the case– thus, I’m still aren’t sure. Is this about oil and greed? Perhaps, I don’t know– everything’s all covered up. Is this about bringing ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ to Iraq? I think it is but Bush’s reasoning for going to war was clearly not that in the first place– else why bother with WMDs or trying to paint Saddam in the worst light possible when you could’ve just rattled the Iraqi masses for change, ie, it shouldn’t had been about Saddam, should’ve been about the Iraqi people and their future. Yet if you read and watch the news coming from post-war Iraq now, their future is uncertain to say the least. The realisation of ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ is still up in the air– not a certainty.
Therefore, because Bush Jr is the one who authorized the first largest warfare of the new century. It is absolutely appropriate and well-suited to point the finger at our current president and his administration for their OWN doing. Me and you or any peace-niks or those in the military or those hard-liner conservatives are NOT to blame. It is only GW Bush, unfortunately.
I really hope you get it.
And you know what? I’ll take the opportunity to use one of your many links and help out with the troops just like you ask us to do. I do appreciate your energetic efforts to support the heros. My hats off to you.
But please please make sure you at least think about your current position on ‘politics’ for I’m really concern that you, just like many out there, have been brainwashed by garbage that needs to be dumped and emptied long time ago. This coming Nov is the time for garbage day. “Anyone but Bush”.
///Personally, I think it’s very disrespectful to those who died and to their families to use their pictures as a mosaic of Bush’s face. There are thousands of other images they could they have thought of. How about an American flag instead? ///
And turn our backs and forget about WHY those men and women died in the first place? Waving our little flags and stare silently in a blank state then before you know it, everyone forgets about this tragedy and move on with our lives only to wait for history to repeat itself again…. and again…. and again…. in an endless ‘stupid’ cycle.
Do you even know why they died? Do you think they died for us or for Bush’s ego? They certainly didn’t die in vain, don’t you worry but they died for a reason. Can you honestly tell me Bush and his friends in Washington aren’t one of the reasons?
Tell me I’m wrong.
God, how good is this pic! i love it. it’s soooo moving and just amazing all round. Can u tell me where to get a copy that i can copy n paste/ print just the one thing.
i love all ye ppl that made this.
lv busy Lizzie B
Even a Belgian is moved by this picture. I’m very sorry for the persons (and their families) who had to die for the principals of one person who claims to be your representative president. This war should stop. Now that Sadam is gone (i didn’t approve him as a president) you notice that it’s getting much worse in Irak. People are dying every day. This picture quit represents it.
Full strength for the families who have suffered an enormous loss.
If not Bush, then who clintons wife. Who else is worth a damm. He needs to clean up this mess or it will never subside.
What a waste of bandwidth! Why don’t you put it on a coffee, mug for all those who are getting chills looking at,to have a hot drink to warm themselves. up?
Get a life. As a Marine “brat” that watched his father serve in Vietnam, these soldiers know the price when they join up and take the money. They know the consequences and if they don’t like it, they shouldn’t have joined. You liberal baby-killing abortionists should talk about how precious lives are.
MESSAGE FOR JOSEPH & JAKE:
You two guys have been going back and forth for a long time now. Take a look at comment # 345 and comment on that — it might put an end to your endless bickering.
and what did they die for? Oil???? to protect Israel??? and how many Iraqies have u killed till now??!!!! the Iraqis want u out of their land
“THE REAL THREAT”? Philip Zelikow, now the executive director of the September 11 commission, served on the National Security Council, was on the Bush transition team, and was a member of the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board from 2001 to 2003. According to the Inter Press Service, he said during a war-on-terror forum at the University of Virginia Law School on Sept. 10, 2002: “I’ll tell you what the real threat [is] and actually has been since 1990 — it’s the threat against Israel. And this is the threat that dares not speak its name because…the American government doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically because it’s not a popular sell.” http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2004/nf20040415_0640_db009.htm
my name is noy and i live in ISRAEL – stop being so naive ! you should look at the whole thing from the root of the matter. the problem here is not Iraq, Afganistan, Iran, the palastinians or any other “Arab” nation. this is a war of religion. it’s the islam agains free humen rights. how can you be so blind ??? haven’t you suffered enough after 9/11, didn’t you have more then plenty casualties ? (3500 people if i’m not mistaken …). your american soldiers are protecting youe free nation to continue to be free without “devil worshipers” islamic fanatic believers. look at how they act in the name of “their” G-od …… you don’t need to be to smart to understand that one day they will want to see you all islamic. my girlfriend is american and we both (and others to) agree that you should understand that if you will not fight for freedom (just like israel !) of religion, faith, believes, land and the persuit of your god (and not in the form of “islamic” “alla”) then you shell lose it all. islamic arabs are not fools. they are already establishing themselves in every country in the world, building themselves and rising more schools, more musks, more prayer institutions, bringing more native (with citizenship ….) children that will grow and multiply in your and any other country in the world, and one day – in the name of “theire” god and “gihad” (holy war) they will take down america and the rest of the world too – without one single bullet fired !. stop being stupid. it’s the world against islam. the sooner you will understand that, the faster you’l get into action, becouse that situation requires massive – non stop action. i feel sorry for every person that is killed but if the normal people will not stand agains evil then there is no hope for life.
Hats off to #350! You all waste your time complaining & pointing fingers! Why not do something constructive with your time? Help our men & women overseas and at home! To put Bush’s face over the top of our fallen serviceman is distasteful! Who was the one to make the fallen soldiers choice of their cause of death for them? An Idiot in my oppion!
noy I’ll be brief and right to the point,
Everything you said can be applied to any religion including, you guessed it, the Jewish faith. In fact every major city in North America has a synagogue in town. And need I say more about your children and grandchildren living freely and prosper alongside with everyone else?
And if I do follow your logic, now should I be threatened by your Jewish religion? Just like how you feel threatened by “Islam” in your mind.
And what about Christianty? Aren’t you at least threatened by ‘them’?
Afterall, many bible-freaks believing in the rapture and all that ‘jazz’ in America today do really think that the Jewish religion will end one day (I’m putting it nicely). Evangelical Christians in particular believe that those who aren’t converted to their ‘faith’ will perish, no ifs ands buts about it. And you being a Jew, noy, unless you embrace the second coming of Jesus and convert to Christianty, in their mind (and I’m not saying they’re right or wrong, you can judge for yourself on that one) you and your girlfriend are doom.
I’m not kidding.
Look, I sort of understand your anger in the mistrust and frankly ‘hatred’ towards ‘them’. Afterall me being here, thousands of miles away from the “hotzone” and can only rely on the media of TV and newspaper alike to get a better understanding of the situation over there in the middle east, I’m too sick and tired myself, never having set foot in Israel or Gaza or West Bank, I feel helpless, hopeless and somewhat angry too! Of course I can never testify the same as how you feel in the present situation and what it is “really” like. I may never know how to live in that ‘anguish’.
///this is a war of religion. it’s the islam agains free humen rights. how can you be so blind ???///
Let me ask you this and you don’t have to answer but be honest to yourself. IF religion (ie, Islam) is somehow out of the picture in the present conflict between Palestinians and Israel, can you honestly say the war would end? Afterall you said this is conflict of human rights versus ‘Islam’…. and once Islam is out of the picture, does that mean every Palestinian will drop their arms and embrace Israel as if it is a long lost friend? Are you sure race and ethnicity has nothing to do with this conflict? Can you honestly tell me you and your girlfriend hold as much hatred towards an Indonesian muslim or an African American Nation of Islam as any Arab Palestinian or Iranian muslim?
It’s not black and white and I’m certainly not saying I’m right or wrong. I’m giving you food-for-thought. It’s very complicated and the only way to make sense of it all is through the basic understanding of tolerance and understanding. What’s more important? Your religioius faith? Your country? or Your own lives and your children’s?
Look as long as there are mulitple religious groups in the world, the idea of your “god” versus my “god” will endure. Today might be Jews versus Allah. A hundred years from now might very well be Jews versus the Roman Catholic Church. What then? Are we going to start the conversation all over again?
///understand that one day they will want to see you all islamic///
What about you? Wouldn’t you like it for me to convert myself into a Jew? Wouldn’t you like to convert ALL muslims in the world into the Jewish faith? Imagine how many problems that will solve?
Yet it wouldn’t work would it? I’m not saying it wouldn’t work in practice…. converting all muslims into Judaism is not at all impossible but it will take time and ALOT of “revolutions” before that can be realized. Yet that’s not what I meant asking wouldn’t it work. What I mean is if you feel that your religious faith is ABOVE everyone else’s (including the ones with no faith at all) then you’re gulity of judging people, even before you get to know them or giving yourself and those who are of different faiths from yours limited choice and in fact no choice at all to embrace and tolerate this or that religion. It’s all going to be ALL or nothing ALL the time.
That’s how you portray Islam and even though you haven’t realized it, Judaism as well. In fact many religions in the world today are just like that.
I agree with noy.
Why not also put together a mosaic of GW made out of photos of those people who died on 9/11? Of course, you folks wouldn’t want that now, would you?
Joseph, you’re so full of s*hit. How many Israelis do you recall blowing themselves up lately in the name of their Jewish faith? How many Christians can you think of who have strapped explosive belts on their CHILDREN and sent them off to die in the name of Christianity? Can you name any Hindus or Buddists who advocate killing themselves or others because of their religious beliefs?
You’re such an IDIOT. It is ISLAM that views everyone not of their faith as infidels and if you will not convert then you are worthy of death. The guy from Israel is right. This is a religious war that has been thrust upon the world by Islamic fanatics and if we do not fight (or convert) then eventually we will die.
And for the rest of you whining morons, I really do wish the world was perfect, but it isn’t. This is the reality. So we’d better do something to protect ourselves or the freedom we enjoy won’t be around for our kids and grandkids.
///haven’t you suffered enough after 9/11, didn’t you have more then plenty casualties ? (3500 people if i’m not mistaken …). ///
Noy just to add a little bit here.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. This is has everything to do with the war in Iraq and nothing to do with 911. Are you telling me bringing democracy and freedom to the Iraqi people is fighting terrorism and fighting the “devil” religion? There are still plenty of mullahs, with no love lost on Israel, in Iraq who are making things more difficult for our boys serving over there. How do you think we should deal with “them”? Is genocide your ulitmate answer? Afterall thousands if not millions of “them” cling to these so-called mullahs and unless the ulitmate is implemented, your ///understand that one day they will want to see you all islamic/// will always exist…. no matter how hard you fight, no matter how angry you are, no matter what as long as there are a few folks believing in ‘Islam’, the war continues.
Now I’ve stepped on dangerous grounds here. And I’ll be the first to say “genocide” is a definite NO-NO. Short of killing every muslim in the world, what can we, the human community, do to ‘prevent’, ‘stop’, ‘end’ this war of religious/ idealogical/ cultural/ class rivalry?
PS not 3500 but less than 3000…. not that I’m downplaying the tragedy but just to correct some myths clouding your judgement.
why not make one with saddams face and all the iraqis he killed while they were at it? waste of space and time, just like Fox news is FAIR AND BALANCED.
///Joseph, you’re so full of s*hit. How many Israelis do you recall blowing themselves up lately in the name of their Jewish faith? How many Christians can you think of who have strapped explosive belts on their CHILDREN and sent them off to die in the name of Christianity? Can you name any Hindus or Buddists who advocate killing themselves or others because of their religious beliefs?///
Angel Eyes, respectfully I have to make something clear here. Seems to me you guys are not “getting it”.
Palestinian terrorism (and I don’t hide the fact that suicide attacks and other mean of using violence to further their cause is terror and in fact plain o’ murder post #327) IS repulsive IS vile IS disgusting. In THAT context and that context ONLY, I agree with you 100%.
Yet how many “Palestinian” causes are there in the whole wide world? How many muslim extremists are really strapping bombs to their children and do unthinkable crimes?
///You’re such an IDIOT. It is ISLAM that views everyone not of their faith as infidels and if you will not convert then you are worthy of death. The guy from Israel is right. This is a religious war that has been thrust upon the world by Islamic fanatics and if we do not fight (or convert) then eventually we will die.///
You can call me whatever you wish. It doesn’t matter. But please please understand NOT ALL (and I have to stress that because it seems to me you and others like you can’t seem to grasp the concept that not everyone have the same traits) muslims or Arabs feel the way as how you put it, your, ///It is ISLAM that views everyone not of their faith as infidels and if you will not convert then you are worthy of death. ///
Or else if that is really the case, we aren’t only at war in Iraq…. and that means even in Iraq EVERYBODY, every brown skined Arab Iraqi will fight the coalition troops to death, not just sporadic attacks by a few leftover Saddam loyalists….. AND we would be at war with the Saudis, Jordan, Iran, Kuwait, Indonesia, America’s Nation of Islam and every conceivable muslim nation or group you can think of!
Like I said to Noy before, the sole solution (IF we were to follow every word you say) is to implement the strategy of genocide in order to win this thing.
Look, the reason why I have to rebut what you say is because, and I’ll be blunt, muslims are just not like how you described them. Go up to any muslim person when you have the opportunity and chances are 99.999999 percent of the time they wouldn’t wish a hair’s harm to you.
In fact I’ll give you this example. Are you familiar with the Khadr Abdurahman’s case? If not you should watch the PBS’s frontline special coming soon call ‘Son of Al Queda’. I’m not going to tell you the whole story here but I want you to understand that this Khadr kid is, on the surface, as replusive as they come and the very meaning and description you provided me about what and who a muslim extremist is cannot be more true here, afterall Khadr’s dad is Bin Laden’s closest friend and in fact Khadr himself was trained in the Al Queda camps in Afghanistan, just like the ones the hijackers of 911 trained in.
Now in your mind there shouldn’t be any doubts about his ‘apparent’ loyalty and about how we should deal and ‘treat’ this kid. Probably you’re thinking ‘prosecute’ then ‘execute’.
Yet do you know why the government and the CIA let him off the hook and basically he is now running free in North America? Because even though his biography cannot be more fitted to the description of being a “terrorist”, in fact you cannot be anymore direct than having people calling you “son of Al Queda”, he himself has never been in line with the kind of terrorist ideology and philosophy that Bin Laden and all of his ‘terrorist friends’ so adamantly testifies to. Thus he became an informant and he became an ally to the United States, to me and you instead of otherwise.
Now I ask you, Angel Eyes, are you going to condemn him too? He is still a muslim and still cling to his faith. Are you still going to look at him the same as how you put it, ///This is a religious war that has been thrust upon the world by Islamic fanatics and if we do not fight (or convert) then eventually we will die/// or scrutinize his very existence as nothing but ///blowing themselves up…. in the name of their [religion] /// Well are you?
///I really do wish the world was perfect, but it isn’t. This is the reality. So we’d better do something to protect ourselves or the freedom we enjoy won’t be around for our kids and grandkids.///
We are doing something to combat terrorism. The battle is on the Afghan front, not Iraq. And you know what as long as you allow the current administration to do as they please, this “protection” of freedom and democracy will always go on under “their” direction and control and ONLY their control. Not the American public.
They say. You act. They enjoy. You…. you tell me 🙁
///You two guys have been going back and forth for a long time now. Take a look at comment # 345 and comment on that – it might put an end to your endless bickering. ///
Al, seen it read it. Thanks for reminding me. But what do you want me to do? Stop posting? Is that it? From my point of view at least, I hold no grudge against Jake. I’m more than happy to address his arguments, else I wouldn’t be posting what I’ve posted here; hence I wouldn’t call it bickering.
And I don’t feel the exchange between Jake and I is “that” heated. I assure you I’ve been in worse. I don’t feel it is “long” either… from the very first post I wrote to the lastest one to Jake, it was a mere 4-5 days. Frankly I think it’s over anyhow. Even if you want to see it, the show’s over already. Unless, of course, he wants to bring it up again.
///If not Bush, then who clintons wife. Who else is worth a damm. He needs to clean up this mess or it will never subside. ///
It’s your choice. Nobody can make that choice for you. But do you honestly think he will do the cleanin’ and scrubin’ once you’ve given him the opportunity? Sometimes the act of cleaning makes the mess worse…. wrong mix of cleaning agents….. leaving stains behind where it should’ve been cleaned…. making a bigger mess in the act of cleanup than before.
Of course I could be wrong. That’s why I merely provide the questions but not the answers.
You lot keep talking about “what is a threat to the USA”. Umm, excuse me, remember the rest of us idiots who are in there with you fighting, there are many other countries so this is just a quick reminder folks.
[b]It is ISLAM that views everyone not of their faith as infidels and if you will not convert then you are worthy of death.[/b]
Second Commandment: Protestant version:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
To all intelligent people supporting the war, im back…Noy, good job. Dont listen to Joseph. Im starting to think that hes from Iraq himself.
Joseph, my friend, i have to say that i am appalled. Not by your arguments, because you can think what you want, but by the way you talk. You can try being respectful for a change. Where do you see me saying things like:
“/Let me ask you this and you don’t have to answer but be honest to yourself/”
“/Boy, I do hope you get it by now. Sometimes you’re too much./”
And all your annoying “this isnt black and white” comments which you have used time and time again in each one of your articles. And your “can you honestly tell me.” Your ignorant shit (for lack of a better word) irritates the hell out of me. If i didnt “honestly” think so, i wouldnt be telling you! How about you just stick to the arguments.
“/And I don’t feel the exchange between Jake and I is “that” heated. I assure you I’ve been in worse. I don’t feel it is “long” either… from the very first post I wrote to the lastest one to Jake, it was a mere 4-5 days. Frankly I think it’s over anyhow. Even if you want to see it, the show’s over already. Unless, of course, he wants to bring it up again/”
Correction…its far from over, especially now. I wont be the one to back out. Ill counter you on every one of your stupid arguments and verbal tricks, starting from your first response to my last post.
“/Jake I’ll just forget about your opinion on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, since it seems to me your bias has consumed you to the point of senselessness…. so I’ll just talk about your comment on the Iraq war.?
HAHAH. Nice one joseph. I used clear examples to support my stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is a bias, but there are facts. I guess you couldnt come up with anything. But nice trick with the “I wont bother attitude.”
About your take on war (from that same post) you are an idiot, saying all your typical idealist “war is war” “we arent sparing anyone” comments. I dont want to sound like a hypocrite, but ill take a page from your book. Can YOU honestly tell ME that the united states forces in Iraq are waging a no-holds-barred campaign, that they are taking no chances to protect civilians…please. In the first place, do you know what the united states is at full strength? If our troops wanted to, they could destroy the entire country (without even nuclear weapons) in a few days. They could level a city within a hour. And you’re gonna tell me that we are doing that right now? Let me give you a clear example. Do you know what the city of Najaf is? Its one of Iraq’s holiest cities. Well in Najaf, a head of a fiercely anti-american radical militia group (his name is Muqtada al-Sadr) is taking refuge because the United States forces are determined to capture him dead or alive for his involvement in so many US deaths. Can you picture this. He is taking refuge in a mosque. Everyone knows where he is. Outside the city is a force of 25,000 US troops. And they are trying not to enter because they dont want to “damage the city’s mosques.” So is that America at its full power? Does that look like World War II where cities such as Dresden and Berlin were bombed mercillesly night and day until they were levelled to the ground (im not against that of course). Im just trying to show the fallacy of your completely stupid logic. Now, because we are holding out – because we dont just invade the city, bomb the damn mosques, and capture this criminal – we are staying in one position outside the city, allowing rebels to make plans, fortify the city in case of an attack (because they have plenty fo time now) and then ambush our troops later. You see? We are exercising a lot of restraint in Iraq to avoid damage to the nation, and this is in fact what is contributing to so many military deaths. can YOU understand that? Dont even try to compare the scale of destruction in Iraq to that fo World War II.
And now…you mustve brought up one of the dumbest things ive heard so far.
“/You might say Iraqis are ungrateful bastards who take advantage of the situation, we got rid of Saddam for them but we get little in return….. still that is the ‘reality’ of it. We spend billions and billions and our boy’s lives to acheive some goal but don’t think for a second that it will be appreciated with open arms. It’s not black and white./”
Of course youre Joseph so you gotta close with that dramatic “its not black and white.” Yes, that is the unfortunate situation in Iraq. But you seem to take it as if the Iraqis are justified in not liking us? Our troops went into Iraq, liberated this entire nation from an oppressive tryant. The pople claimed to hate this person (i saw them crying on CNN when troops were unearthing mass burials of people killed by Hussein) And then they come out and start fighting their own liberators. We have established an Iraqi council. We have stated our desire to be out by June. We are planning to give over power of their country to them. They have gotten a free damn ride at the cost of our troops, and then you act as if they’re supposed to not like us? “What did i expect?” I expectred them to welcome us with open arms. They cheered when we toppled that statue of Saddam. Forgive me friend. Myabe you can explain to me why all of a sudden they are against us? And then you say weve accomplished our goal – weve gotten rid of saddam. Why dont we just leave? If the iraqis dont like us, lets just leave right? We cant just leave an unstable, war-torn nation. We have a responsibility as protectors of democracy to stay there until the Iraqis can get their nation off the ground. If we leave right now ,those same fundamentalists who we are fighting in Fallujah and Najaf right now will reclaim the country and establish another Saddam-type regime. We first have to eliminate all of those radicals because the Iraqis sure as hell are too scared to fight for themselves. They need us. And furthermore, we came to Iraq to end terrorism, but now that they are there we want to establish democracy – and that means democracy by our standards – separation of church and state, encfranchisement for all citizens, and womens rights. Now, the Iraqis want to establish a constituion founded on the Quran – which means no separation of church and state and no women’s rights. Now, you seem to respect all religions and cultures. You probably feel that, if its their belief, who are we to interfere right? Tell me you dont feel that way. They dont have to think our way, but they must have freedom – freedom for all – freedom of religion. Thus, i have a problem with the constituion right now, and we cant leave until there is freedom there. Only then can the country build up and prosper. And if you truly belief that we have no right to interfere with their “religious beliefs” consider this: the Aztecs of Mexico believed in human sacrifice…should they have been left alone too?
“/Then why did “Daddy” failed in that attempt in the first place? Because of the EU? Come on, are you insane or something?
The first Gulf War back in the early 90s failed to get Saddam because us Americans, under Senior Bush’s direction, refused to step foot on Iraqi soil after the Kuwait liberation. Learn your history my friend. I’m not going to tell you everthing here since you wouldn’t listen to me anyway and I don’t want to waste the time and energy lecturing you on modern political realities, which you can easily learn yourself in any local library./”
We refused to set foot on Iraqi soil? What the hell are you smoking? Within 100 hours, we had moved 200 miles north into Iraq from Saudi Arabia and 70 miles east, we practically enveloped all of Iraq’s territory near Kuwait and Saudi Srabia. Our forces bombed Baghdad. They completely destroyed Saddam’s royal guard. His best forces were in shambles. His troops were surrendering to us in mass numbers. And youre telling me that we never went in or that we could not take over Baghdad? The fact is that we had a chance back in 1991. We could have easily taken over the nation. But we let them escape with a cease fire and some UN sanctions. You criticize America’s hasty entrance into the war. I crticize actions like THAT – letting iraq off the hook, not taking advantage of the opportunity that presented itself. Whatever happened to taking over when winning a war?? My only problem is that we did not take over Iraq back then…if we had, we wouldnt be talking about this right now…
I agree with whoever said youre full of shit Joseph. You can come at me with whatever you have. I frankly dont care if noone on this board supports the war. Ill be the rallying point for American patriots and people with common sense and intelligence. Why dont you go move to Iraq and help your friends (and i dont mean our troops)
What the hell are you talking about. Forget it, I’m not going “play” with you anymore, this is the kind of stuff I want to avoid in the first place. If you remembered #240 (the very first post I addressed to you), I clearly stated, ///First off I don’t expect you to listen to me as you have clearly indicated in your post. /// Try to obey your own words.
So I’m just going to point out things from now on that I think should be worth mentioning, any other stuff that is irreverent or just plain “stupid”, I’ll leave out. You can think whatever the hell you want, You can think I’m chicken shit for all I care.
///YOU honestly tell ME that the united states forces in Iraq are waging a no-holds-barred campaign, that they are taking no chances to protect civilians…please.///
Tell that to the victims of those Iraqi family members whose loved ones were massacred at check-points by overzealous coalition troops. Watch 60 minutes sometime. Did you see the bodies of an entire family, father to mother to their infant daughters, riddled with bullet wounds dead in their modest 80s-model car because coalition troops “thought” they were the enemy.
It’s a joke that you come up with the Al-Sadr example as your reasoning and prove for “restraint” (as if that proves compassion from the US side) Are you dumb (and I’m getting pretty tired telling you that btw)? The only reason why they’re backing off in Najaf is for “strategic” reasons, as in trying to win the battle using a plan of strategy. The reason they’re holding off any offensive attack in this case (and I want to stress this case only) is because they DO NOT want to antagonize the Shiite-dominated community/ population situated in Najaf, which Sadr is the leader and prominent figure-head. You’re right they have a high concentration of holly mosques and sites over there and they don’t want to make an already volatile, explosive and difficult situation worse. You see the problem is Al-Sadr is the mastermind and organizer of many of the attacks on coalition troops. He is the problem. Don’t think for a second that senior officials in Washington and those who are in charge of the campaign don’t want this guy dead, as a matter of fact, the sooner the better. But the reality of the situation is we can’t act hastily and certainly we can’t act (ie go into Najaf and blow everything up) without weighing the consequences of more attacks and more resistance.
Do you want to see more portraits of dead American soldiers on that mosaic at top of this page? I don’t think so either. When you’re going into a war, it’s either you or the enemy dead or injured….. civilians compromise the objective. They make things a bit more difficult. Unless technology is advanced enough to allow no human presence on the battlefield then and only then you can say we have the luxury of “restraint” on our side.
Btw tell me the casualty toll on the Iraqi side so far into the war (civilians and fighters included) since March. Now tell me the casualty toll from our side.
Need I say more about “restraint”? And please don’t compare the record of this war to past wars…. at least compare to more recent ones like Gulf or Vietnam. There is just NO comparison between WW1 or WW2 with the current war in Iraq. There is just too big of a discrepancy of time and technology and everything in between!
And if you like to declare yourself the winner of this “debate”, then by all means do it. Hell! You want me to call myself a loser, I’m a loser 🙂 Happy now?
But please read what I’ve written at least, that’s what most important to me and that’s what this should be about.
///I used clear examples to support my stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is a bias, but there are facts. I guess you couldnt come up with anything. But nice trick with the “I wont bother attitude.”///
Read #327 again please and pay particularly close attention to MY explanation on the Israel issue.
Yeah you sure indicated you didnt want me to listen to you. But you’re ridiculous posts made that hard to do. I think you’re a complete idiot. I know that when you point out facts, you’re supposed to try to be impartial, but you do it to a degree that is outright scary. Reading your posts, one would think that the Iraqis are not only innocent, but victims. You portray your own country in a negative light when America is the greatest country in the world. And at times like this – when the rest of the world hates us so that it can suck up to the Arabs and their oil supply – one would think that at least AMERICANS can support AMERICA. Good job doing that. And the funniest thing is that you can criticize this because you know that, no matter what you say, we will continue to be at war becuase we cant back out now. Thats a relief, isnt it? You can criticize it from thousands of miles away. Go point to that mosaic of our troops. Go act like they died for nothing and use them as part of your anti-war argument. But those troops knew what they were fighting for. They were fighting for freedom and for their country. I dont think they would have wanted to be used as part of a plot to end what they were willing to die for. You can go ahead and let them die in vain. Because if we pull out now – just like we did 13 years ago – in another 13 years we will have to go back in and the problem will start all over again.
Im not even going to respond to what you say because your latest arguments dont harm my case at all. I dont care about winning this debate. It wasnt respectable enough to be happy with victory. It was pathetic listening to your stupid remarks and the way you try to impose your argument upon your opponents (see previous article for details). And you dont have to “play” with me anymore. I was never playing. i can “honestly tell you that.” You called it quits buddy.
///They have gotten a free damn ride at the cost of our troops, and then you act as if they’re supposed to not like us? “What did i expect?” I expectred them to welcome us with open arms. They cheered when we toppled that statue of Saddam. Forgive me friend. Myabe you can explain to me why all of a sudden they are against us?///
I don’t act. This has nothing to do with me. I’m not the one in Iraq, fighting in defence or offence…. you can say then just “shut the hell up” and that’s all valid but because this great country of ours allows freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I’m just exercising my rights. I hope we’re clear on that one.
I’m giving you common sense and most importantly I’m telling you the truth about the situation. There is no playing of words or hiding facts to suit my argument etc etc. Politicans like Bush and Kerry do that, not me…. not here.
The fact of the matter is many Iraqi do appreciate our help in the toppling of Saddam and his regime but do not appreciate our presence being there now. In fact if things get any worse, they want to topple us just as much as they wanted Saddam gone.
I’ve explained to you why they are all “suddenly” against us. And I use the term “suddenly” very losely.
Re-read the posts I’ve already written to you and others in detail.
Pay close attention to #335, 340, 353
///And if you truly belief that we have no right to interfere with their “religious beliefs” consider this: the Aztecs of Mexico believed in human sacrifice…should they have been left alone too? ///
Ask any person with Aztec heritage in his/her blood about being colonized and basically wiped out from history by European settlers. Ask if he/she is happy about that.
It’ll be the first time in my life to hear someone say thank you to Spanish Conquistadors and what their legacy in latin America.
I never said anything about “religious” freedom or any issue like that in all my previous posts on this website. In fact I’ve criticised (dissed) just about every major religion, including Islam, Judasim and Christianty in my previous posts.
Why you’re putting out these ridiculous outrageous comments is beyond me.
///Of course youre Joseph so you gotta close with that dramatic “its not black and white.”///
If I say something different, you wouldn’t get it. The black and white phrase is layman’s term so that you would understand my point of view without having to be confused or think about my sometimes long (but never boring) ideas.
I’m not here to impress you as much as I want to educate you. Alright?
///We refused to set foot on Iraqi soil? What the hell are you smoking? Within 100 hours, we had moved 200 miles north into Iraq from Saudi Arabia and 70 miles east, we practically enveloped all of Iraq’s territory near Kuwait and Saudi Srabia. Our forces bombed Baghdad.///
You know what? You’re absolutely right. You scored a winner on me for technicality. You’re right we did stepped foot in Iraq. So this phrase from moi,
///because us Americans, under Senior Bush’s direction, refused to step foot on Iraqi soil after the Kuwait liberation.///
is technically wrong.
But if you have any intelligence you know too that I’m talking about “stepping foot” metaphorically. That is we never did toppled Saddam back in 1991 when we had the chance. Not whether or not our soldiers did cross the border line in the literal sense.
Look, whose fault was it really for not taken that “opportunity” when it had presented itself?
The International community? The Eu? Really?
You sure it ain’t Daddy’s fault?
Why have the soldiers? Why not the civilians and Iraqi soldiers murdered by the Mad Cowboy and his armies?
Heres to the Coalition of the Willing being thrown out of Iraq!
About your Spanish conquistadors…i applaud them for wiping out a culture based on violence and sacrifice. I dont care about their descendents or how they feel. Their culture was wrong. Unlike you, i dont see myself below being able to judge whether a culture is “good” or bad.” You just seem to support everyone. And you avoided my question….how do you feel about the Aztecs?
And about the Gulf War, no, i dont think its Bush Senior’s fault. It is the EU. Back then we were still listening to Europe. Thats why we never got shit done. You will forgive me if i dont refer to him as “Daddy.”
/// I know that when you point out facts, you’re supposed to try to be impartial, but you do it to a degree that is outright scary. ///
What are you talking about? Giving you facts automatically means I have to be impartial on issues? I can’t give my 2 cents on the issues? Is that it? …..that doesn’t even make any sense!
I point out facts to SUPPORT my argument/ opinion. I never force you or anyone else here to conform to my ideas or anything.
Do you know why you think it is scary Jake? It’s because I’m dissing everything you think of as being the “perfect” “best” “utopian-like” setting that you and many of us have been accustomed to, we call America.
America is a great country but it is far from perfect and the action or the route we’re taking with the direction from the current administration is getting bleak and very much problematic. I’m only a ringer of the alarm bell. You choose to pay attention to that sound is up to you. I cannot force you to listen nor would I want to.
Aztecs? I love them. I think, if we can let bygones be bygones and move forward to modernity– of course this is all done in consent with the decendents of the Aztecs people and I’m clearly not one of them, it would be wonderful to take advantage of an opportunity not only educating the rest of the world about their rich ancient culture but to earn a little something on the side with tourist dollars and whatnot.
Mexico is still very much a third world reality and I think any bit of economic opportunity helps and probably helps with the immigration problems our southern borders face everyday.
Right on Joseph.
///YOU honestly tell ME that the united states forces in Iraq are waging a no-holds-barred campaign, that they are taking no chances to protect civilians…please.///
You know what, you’re right **chuckles**…. they’re not taking any chances to protect them, they have their own to think about. With battle this intense and ferocious, how could anyone care about saving a little boy or girl from harm’s way. No way! Getting those terrorists and resistance fighters are our top priority!
///They have gotten a free damn ride at the cost of our troops, and then you act as if they’re supposed to not like us? “What did i expect?” I expectred them to welcome us with open arms. They cheered when we toppled that statue of Saddam. Forgive me friend. Myabe you can explain to me why all of a sudden they are against us?///
I don’t act. This has nothing to do with me. I’m not the one in Iraq, fighting in defence or offence…. you can say then just “shut the hell up” and that’s all valid but because this great country of ours allows freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I’m just exercising my rights. I hope we’re clear on that one. (response from Joseph)
I’ll just say that in all of this you are right JOSEPH when you said — “I don’t act. This has nothing to do with me. I’m not the one in Iraq, fighting in defence or offence” ……your just using this form to try & show your intelligence, which is none! Get the Facts or Shut your Mouth! It’s people like you who hurt our military men & women when they come home!!!!!! Back off & learn your history!! This site i’m guessing was developed to support our fallin troops, has now become your own political form. You should be as ashamed of yourself as the person who delevoped the picture. Many of our troop back Pres. Bush’s decision. As should you, it’s about your freedom, your loved ones freedom, & people you don’t even know. Get a clue before you spout off your mouth!!!!………Jake thank you for backing up all the right information, so stupids out there like “Joseph” don’t influence people!!!!!!
Macedonians hope for peace for peoples of Middle East. May God harshly punish the warmongers like
Bush, Cheyney and New World Order partners such as Blair.
Jebem ti Amerikansko terrorizmo. Zatvor i smrt za fassititi vo Iraqk.
Kimmie your #390.
So if I assume your words are as good as gold and unequivocally 100% right on every time you open your mouth. Then I should follow your logic. And your logic says anyone who even questions Bush and his view points and his actions is not only wrong but is guilty of heresy, unpatriotic, vile and just plain o’ immoral. Right?
Is that it? I hope I haven’t left anything out from your puny thoughts you call a mind.
God bless America. Correction. God bless Bush’s America. Indeed. (and don’t think I’m being cynical here, the sad thing is that this is really the truth)
/// You should be as ashamed of yourself as the person who delevoped the picture. Many of our troop back Pres. Bush’s decision. As should you, it’s about your freedom, your loved ones freedom, & people you don’t even know. Get a clue before you spout off your mouth!!!!………Jake thank you for backing up all the right information, so stupids out there like “Joseph” don’t influence people!!!!!! ///
Like I said numerous times before, please prove to me I’m wrong! Prove to me I’m worthy of being ashamed! I want to be ashamed of myself! But right now I can’t! How could I when none of you who are attacking me (for no good reason btw) can come up with something for me to be challenging, let alone to allow myself to be ashamed.
You say it’s about my freedom and my loved ones freedom and things like that….. explain to me how do you go from that to telling me to get a clue and calling me stupid? And why would backing President Bush automatically means my freedom? Please expand further or at least explain that part to me. In that sense, I guess you’re right, I have no clue. Enlighten me please. Or you’re just going to tell me to fuck off 🙂
…..sigh ……so predictable
/// You should be as ashamed of yourself as the person who delevoped the picture. Many of our troop back Pres. Bush’s decision. As should you, it’s about your freedom, your loved ones freedom, & people you don’t even know. Get a clue before you spout off your mouth!!!!………Jake thank you for backing up all the right information, so stupids out there like “Joseph” don’t influence people!!!!!! ///
Like I said numerous times before, please prove to me I’m wrong! Prove to me I’m worthy of being ashamed! I want to be ashamed of myself! But right now I can’t! How could I when none of you who are attacking me (for no good reason btw) can come up with something for me to be challenging, let alone to allow myself to be ashamed.
You say it’s about my freedom and my loved ones freedom and things like that….. explain to me how do you go from that to telling me to get a clue and calling me stupid? And why would backing President Bush automatically means my freedom? Please expand further or at least explain that part to me. In that sense, I guess you’re right, I have no clue. Enlighten me please. Or you’re just going to tell me to fuck off 🙂
…..sigh ……so predictable
///so stupids out there like “Joseph” don’t influence people!!!!!! ///
If you think I’m an idiot, dumb, stupid, unintelligent then what are you afraid of? Why do you care so much to what I say? Who did I influence to make you say that? Perhaps…… maybe…… you? I don’t know you’ll going to have to ask yourself and come with an honest answer on that one 😉
God bless America. Correction. God bless Bush’s America. Indeed. (and don’t think I’m being cynical here, the sad thing is that this is really the truth) ~ Quoted from Joseph
From your mouth Joesph……It’s not Bush’s America……so it seem that you admit your truth….(I believe that if your self doesn’t feel something is not right within yourself, you should question it)…so you actually support what is going on in Iraq, to support the freedom of all people…..so why not just stop all this stuff, that is rambling, it is not history or facts….& just give up your true feelings, you support the fact of our military taking & imprisioning Haussain is an effert in stopping terrisiom…..Terrisiom affects us all, no matter what your beliefs, where your are from or where you are centrally located……the fact remains the same terriorist’s attack the “inocents” to prove they’re the “tough guys” ……we are in Iraq to end their capitalatization & to give them the freedom of speech & religion…..It’s a tough job, it’s gonna take a bit to get calm & quite there & people who send out negative responses don’t help our military who are there, they are the one defending “freedom”, regardless of who you are or where you live, let’s help them & not try to predict what “their” policatical stance is…
#395…sorry…forgot to sign it from me…..
I’m having fun so here’s more,
Let’s play “Prove it”, shall we?
///just using this form to try & show your intelligence, which is none!///
Can you tell me how do I use this to try and show my intelligence? Examples? Evidence? And how do you come up with my intelligence being zero– you know I can read and write….. so that at least count for something right? or no?
///Get the Facts or Shut your Mouth!///
Get “WHAT” facts? I’ve explained already why I wouldn’t ‘shut my mouth’ (read #380).
///It’s people like you who hurt our military men & women when they come home!!!!!!///
I never verbally abuse anyone or use phyical harm towards anyone coming home from their tour of duty. Some of my friend’s friends are in the military and I smile at them and they smile back every time we meet. Does that mean I’m hurting them? Is there something I am missed here?
///Back off & learn your history!!///
There I just backed off (you didn’t see it? too bad) …..yes I’m trying to find time to catch up on ancient Hellenic period, particularly I’m interested in Grecian art. The “Agamemnon” Mask, Venus de Milo and Man with Helmet are some of my favorite works from the ancient world…. how about you, what’s your interest in history?
///This site i’m guessing was developed to support our fallin troops, has now become your own political form. ///
I fully support those who are serving in military and those who are in war zones all around the world (not just Iraq) right now “fighting for our freedom”. My sympathies and prayers towards those who have fallen and towards their families who are no doubt having a hard time to cope with their losses.
As for being “political”, I never said anything that is “political”, I merely tell you the truth, as hard and unpopular it may be. And I use truth to support my own opinion. You and anyone else here reading this can choose to accept it or not. I don’t have anything to do with that choice.
So how has this become my own political forum and why you say that is beyond me. Only you can tell me. And of course I’m always here to listen.
///You should be as ashamed of yourself as the person who delevoped the picture. ///
Haha….. that’s all I want to say, that’s all I can say actually.
///so why not just stop all this stuff, that is rambling, it is not history or facts….& just give up your true feelings, you support the fact of our military taking & imprisioning Haussain is an effert in stopping terrisiom….///
Stop ‘WHAT’ stuff? I told you they are my own opinion and they are based on facts. <--- You are the one who should just accept that And I'll say it again, it's your choice to choose to agree or disagree with MY opinion on things. I agree in the capture of Saddam. But I don't agree in kids and families of Iraqi citizens being killed by coalition bullets and bombs. I don't believe we are stamping out terrorism in Iraq or do us any more favors over there, it would be much better if we would just direct our resources towards the "real" problem of terrorism, Afghanistan and many other places around the world (Britain for example with their vulnerability) then I would sleep better at night. Now tell me how is that "rambling" or not history or fact is beyond me. Again please explain to me further.
///so why not just stop all this stuff, that is rambling, it is not history or facts….& just give up your true feelings, you support the fact of our military taking & imprisioning Haussain is an effert in stopping terrisiom….///
Stop ‘WHAT’ stuff? I told you they are my own opinion and they are based on facts (you are the one who should just accept that )
And I’ll say it again, it’s your choice to choose to agree or disagree with MY opinion on things.
I agree in the capture of Saddam. But I don’t agree in kids and families of Iraqi citizens being killed by coalition bullets and bombs. I don’t believe we are stamping out terrorism in Iraq or do us any more favors over there, it would be much better if we would just direct our resources towards the “real” problem of terrorism, Afghanistan and many other places around the world (Britain for example with their vulnerability) then I would sleep better at night.
Now tell me how is that “rambling” or not history or fact is beyond me. Again please explain to me further.
I’m having fun so here’s more,
Let’s play “Prove it”, shall we?
///just using this form to try & show your intelligence, which is none!///
Can you tell me how do I use this to try and show my intelligence? Examples? Evidence? And how do you come up with my intelligence being zero– you know I can read and write….. so that at least count for something right? or no?
no….(I’m having fun so here’s more),…..u spout out whatever u feel is bring contriverse…& i’m sorry it seems to be your problem that it is against our troops….which you already know that u can’t even compreihend….so why try to put your belief’s on those fallin soliders…u have no clue…my husband was in the first Desert Strom…..they (being all the troops there, wanted to accomplish what we have done so far…so DONT even try for one sec put your footsteps in his or they’res…..you have your freedom to speek out…and as so much is rederick…..you need to to there & see what’s happening or recondition your thoughts to help our guys over there…..
In 1990 My husband was over there in Iraq & my friends husbands where there, you have no one close to you who was there or is there, so you spout out your mouth!!! My husband in 1990 -1991 was there in Iraq, my brother-in-law was there before all this on S.I. movements….so you produce something that is either history realative or go home to your comfort zone & leave this to the ones who REALLY CARE!!!! BYE BYE JOSEPH….(get your facts in history straight or SHUT UP!!!!!! & leave the rest to those who REALLY CARE about our military ****A Yelllow Ribbon Hangs from my house 🙂 Semper Fi & to all for the cause of “OUR” Freedom….weather it be USA or Other Countries….We should not be afaird of others & WE SHOULD FEEL SECURE IN OUR COUNTRY….
***sorry that I didn’t Identify myself on comment #400
Dirty War for Dirty Cash of Rich Pockets in head of Devil Force President
sorry…..Jake gives all the facts on #376…Read on & Read People….It’s important….you seem to not have any personal stakes in the military…..it’s unfornutate…..WE ARE PROUD OUR SOLDIERS SERVERING “OUR FREEDOM”……………….you protest…god forbide your not hurting them….I hope that you are wishing them well in their trites…..
Kim your #400
How the **** old are you? You have a husband served in the Gulf? Are you lying to me?
Look the reason I ask is you really doesn’t seem to be an adult. Your words are childish and I don’t mind if you have some spelling errors but you’re typing ‘net’ shorthands annoys the hell out of me….
What are you, 13 years old?
Look, if I seem disrespectful because YOU started it. But at least learn some typing skills before you attack me on the issues.
So what your husband or brother-in-law or whoever serves in the military? My dad’s a viet-veteran….. does that make me special? I don’t think so! What would make it special if YOU yourself are the one serving the country then you can at least get rub that into my face. Until then and until you learn some typing skills and manners (for that matter) don’t talk to me about who I am or what I do or don’t do.
If you’re lonely, get a boyfriend or hang out at clubs or something. Don’t attack me for your misery. I NEVER attacked your husband or anybody who serves in the military. I merely criticize those who are making the “wrong” decisions for our troops…. and if you don’t think they’re wrong then good for you, if you agree good for you as well. I am merely voicing my own opinion. What you think is none of my business. But don’t you dare telling me I can’t even say a word about it….. or else how could I or anyone support to protect a country that doesn’t allow freedom of expression and freedom of thought?
///We should not be afaird of others & WE SHOULD FEEL SECURE IN OUR COUNTRY…. ///
You forget to add, ‘Heil Bush’
Halbaja was the work of persians not the Iraqies it has been a fact that is known to all peoples so I don’t know what the **** that person who wrote reply #16 means . like wake up Mr !!!!! Americans stopped taking Bs news .
we know now facts like never before !!!! like our presedent made us the most hated people on the face of the earth . let us see today the nsab what it says …..which new place we are advised not to go to . I don’t think much of them if any left .
Kim last thing, my beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with fallen soldiers except maybe to prevent ‘future’ fallen soldiers. What you’re telling me and what you’re accusing me of are plain gibberish. The only good reason why I’m still responding to your “shit” is for my own entertainment and perhaps just perhaps you might listen to a different perspective.
Now go on…. “dance” for me…. thaaaaat’s right
Heck, I don’t know what y’all have against the president. I mean, God is telling him to send troops to Iraq- are you really one to question God? We brought freedom there, and every single one of those brown sons-a-bitches are still terrorists. We’re putting in a government of freedom, with a board we picked out, to install democracy and capitalism, which will not only give the people there a non-repressive leader but the ability to support themselves economically without having to conquer other countries, just like what we have.
Yeah, a few of our boys died, but they did it in the fight for freedom. The freedom of Americans to feel safe, and for the freedom of them Iraqis. Hell, 500 people isn’t that many people to die in a war. We have every right to kill all the Iraqis we want if they try to fight us, because it’s for their own good.
MAn are you stupid ….. do you really think you stupid president is driven by god …. geez he doesn’t even listen to his own church …… and by the way it is not because some people doesn’t look like white trash souther trailer park american that they are terrorist ….. you sir should know better … educate yourself and leanr the truth …. i read everyday the scadal that your stupid president creates and i must say i am much more scared of him trowing a few nukes then north korea of iran ….. you are imperialist and as long as your pay less on your gas you would kill everyone of us …… by the way you did not bring order in iraq you brought terror, despotism , tyranny and DEATH DEATH TO YOUR LOVED ONES AND DEATH TO THOUSANDS OF IRAQIS WOMEN CHILDREN AND MEN …. BE PROUD OF YOU STUPID WHERE YOUR COALITION OF THE WILLING IS FALLING APART… WHERE THE WORLD HATES YOU MORE THEN EVER AND WHERE NO ONE TRUST YOU GUYS ….. DOESN’T LOOK LIKE SOMETHING …… NAZI GERMANY…. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS INSTEAD OF PRODUCING A GENOCIDE YOU GUYS CALL THEM CASUALTIES OF WAR …. HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND SUPPORTING ISRAEL ….. SHAME ON YOU ….. I HOPE PEOPLE WILL VOTE KERRY AND CHANGE THIS WORLD FOR THE BEST ….. BECAUSE GOD IS NOT ON YOUR SIDE … HE VOTES FOR PEACE AND NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO CALL ON GOD FOR WAR
Someone here wrote that some pictures, if you do the math, must be used more than once. But I suppose if you had pictures of all the Iraqi citizens (and their children) killed, and figure how many more soldiers will die over there before Bush does something intelligent, you’d have plenty of pictures–maybe even enough to create a mosaic of Cheney and Rumsfeld too.
///maybe even enough to create a mosaic of Cheney and Rumsfeld too. ///
Or the entire portrait of Bush’s cabinet….. naked hehe~~
Kim, Jake and others,
I just noticed a very good very informative post that would put to rest many of your questions and arguments you guys are trying to make against. Read #23
Pay close attention to
///As a former member of the armed forces, as someone who subscribed – and subscribes – to an ideal that includes my death for a cause I deem just and worthy, I don’t think of this mosaic as a “waste”.///
///I must, however, as you this one thing – if, as a soldier, I had to chose between someone sending me a care packet and someone lobbying my fellow Americans to show who got us into this mess, hoping the next commander in chief will not deny my request for a kevlar vest and more diplomacy instead of “bring it on
“, I would chose the latter.
My morale will improve in either case, yet having a psychologist on staff in my unit, a kevlar vest that could have saved so many lives, and the knowledge that “up there”, someone acts to reduce violence rather than dismissing it as necessary, might do even more the trick.///
Thank you Mr. Luster
Incredible! I am speechless!!
/// Go act like they died for nothing and use them as part of your anti-war argument. But those troops knew what they were fighting for. They were fighting for freedom and for their country. I dont think they would have wanted to be used as part of a plot to end what they were willing to die for. You can go ahead and let them die in vain///
Let me jog your memory and check out #354 again.
Pay particularly close attention to this little phrase I WROTE MYSELF,
///They certainly didn’t die in vain, don’t you worry— ///
Now how the F*CK did you come up with me saying I ///act like they died for nothing and use them as part of (my) anti-war argument /// or that I ///go ahead and let them die in vain/// is my question to you!
///Im not even going to respond to what you say because your latest arguments dont harm my case at all. I dont care about winning this debate. It wasnt respectable enough to be happy with victory. It was pathetic listening to your stupid remarks and the way you try to impose your argument upon your opponents (see previous article for details). And you dont have to “play” with me anymore. I was never playing. i can “honestly tell you that.” You called it quits buddy ///
Awww…. so you wants me to be da winna? You know I don’t mind if you admit to defeat and let me shine in the spotlight (despite what I said earlier). Is that what you want? I didn’t call it quits, just frastrated, ie, I was using the “pause” button… but now I feel I can “play” with chew again. **click**
How sad that you are posting this. These men had fought for a noble cause, for something they believed it. And you are using their death to contridict something they died for. How very sad. What a way to honor their death. You shoudl feel ashamed.
this is sick leave these poor people alone they fought for us and died for us and for michael moore to want to post this on his site is sick michael moore you just need to leave the country you will never get the majority to like you
These people’s faces shouldn’t be used for political purpose just because someone hates Bush. It is disrespectful to their memory. These people were proud Americans and they died so we can live our lives without terrorism like they do over in Israel.
i want to see the one of Osama made with all the people that died in the towers. why don’t one of you left wingers make one and post it.
YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THOSE WHO FIGHT OR HAVE FOUGHT FOR YOU. YOU POLITICAL POSITION MAY DOOM YOU TO A LIFE OF HELL, BUT THE REST OF US DON’T NEED TO SEE YOUR TWISTED THOUGTHS.
THIS IS A HEINOUS USE OF TALENT.
This is a HEINOUS waste of talent. I am sickened by this display. This is a disgrace to the memories of our fallen heroes.
Using these fallen heroes for a political statement is disgusting. Whoever did this should be ashamed of themself.
We have an ALL VOLUNTEER force and they knew what the stakes were before enlisting. I am proudly going into
the Army in June and I fully understand what I will be fighting for and the consequences thereof.
Can you say HYPOCRACY??!!! Michael Moore and all of you other people who are in awe of this “mosaic” are the same ones who cried foul when President Bush used the picture of one flag draped coffin of a fire fighter. That is so typical. Just like John Kerry crying and blaming Bush for sending jobs overseas while their family has the majority of their companies overseas. HYPOCRITES, everyone of you.
It is shocking to see parents sending their kids to invade another contry and die. Some seem to be motivated by revange, which is disgusting, others for just believing any propaganda from the current administration and others, motivated by ultra right think tanks, believe that we need free access to oil in order to face China and/or EU in the coming years.
Nonetheless, if the motivation is revange, plain foolishness or greedy, disguised with a grand economical view, our soldiers and Iraq civilians are paying the price of our actions, or should I say inaction. Does anyone really believe that in the XXI century a whole country is going to accept being invaded/”libarated” by another one and things will be get smoothier after a while?
Well, as long as we debate that, people will continue to die and some pundits keep talking about Democrats X Republicans as though the whole world centers around these two American parties.
Some times I wonder how close to the truth Michael Moore is when he states we are stupid!
That is sick. Taking images of people who have died and use them to form something that they have no say in is sick. Who gives you the right to do this? Those people served honorably for their country and deserve some respect after they have given their life. Why do you stoop too such disgusting levels to gain attention for your opinion? It really discredits you. You should also be seeing yourself in that picture. You posses the same qualities to manipulate others for your gain. You are sick.
I look at it this way since were in war, i would rather it be anyone but us. Thats how they looked at it when all of the bombings took place (cole, us barrects, towers,twice and others). You guys have been jarring for the last couple of days it was fun (for a while). Just had to put my two cents in. Its all starts sounding the same after a while. How bout something new, know one is going to back off, unless your head explodes Ha. Agree to disagree. Yess YEss i know you have a point but your not going to change the way people think. You both have very good shit to say. It’s been fun to read both of your post.
I think this picture is the worst thing I have ever seen. My husband just got back from being over in Iraq for 14 months. If he would have lost his life over there and someone used his picture to make such a stupid statement, I would be outraged! I am just sickened! These people lost their lives for this country and for your freedom to post such crap. Why do we have to politicize everything? What is this world coming to??
This is a wonderful concept, and it’s moving to see the faces of our beloved troops. Sadly, the images creator chose to make it political instead of making a tribute to those who have given their lives. How much more moving would it have been to use these same pictures to create an image of the Statue of Liberty.
Please… give yourselves a perspective check when considering our Iraq situation. The war on/with Terror cost us 3,000 civilian lives in one day when it was brought to our soil. It’s cost 700 of our volunteer, professional soldiers since we took the war to the terrorists in Iraq. I truly don’t see how some people separate the Iraq Front from our larger war on terror with any intellectual honesty.
God bless and keep our troops.
How sad. This war in Iraq is bigger than revenge for 9/11. It’s bigger than “war for oil”. It’s bigger than Iraqi freedom. The big picture that should be displayed is peace in the Middle East. That is the ultimate goal.
As long as there are dictators killing their own people, terrorists regimes that perpetuate the problem with the teaching of terrorism to their children, countries full of scared civilians, women forced into oppression, and mad tyrannical leaders running around with the ability to create and use WMD, America will never be truly safe.
If America didn’t have to worry about misquided religious zealots trying to enforce their beliefs on everyone (if we aren’t of that same religion, we are infidels), then maybe sending our heros to the East wouldn’t be necessary. If 9/11 didn’t show you that PREVENTION is key, then the lesson is lost and those deaths are only a sad story of our times.
Much like putting a “Beware of Dog” sign in your front yard to warn off thiefs – if there isn’t a dog – it is only a matter of time before the thiefs come around. If you have something of value in your home, they will want it or hate you for having it. America is that home. We had a reputation for being tough and protective. Previous terrorist attacks (World Trade years ago, the bombing in Yemen, the story of Black Hawk down) was the thief checking to see if we really had a bad dog that would attack. They thought our dog was a puppy and attacked us in 9/11. If we don’t show we’ve got the dog, the thief will be back with all of his friends. If we sick the dog on the thief and his friends, we get rid of the thief and put a stop to terrorism for awhile.
There hasn’t been another attack on our soil since 9/11. Why? Because we let the dogs out. We flexed our muscle. But with so many of the inhabitants of our own home shirking the responsibility of protection (for a myriad of reasons), the thief is starting to get emboldened again – and they will be back. Directly after 9/11, America was ONE voice and WE WERE tough – no one could hurt us then. But our voice has lost it’s strength – and the terrorist hears it.
Bush said this fight would take years. He said this during his “Axis of Evil” speech. We are fighting an ideal – we are fighting oppression. We will win – as long as we stay strong and stay the course. It is a war that has never been waged before. There is NOTHING that we can compare it to – NO OTHER WAR OR CONFLICT. This is something new and waiting for another 9/11 simply isn’t an option in my book. Pre-emptive strike is the most logical solution there is – regardless of WMD or not (and some WMD has been found and was actually trying to be used in other countries – (the chemical WMD came from Syria – the country that has been suspected of “holding” saddam’s stuff and abetting saddam’s plans).
The flexing of our muscles has shown other Middle East countries that we mean business. Iran, Syria, Jordan – they have had to take good look at themselves and their relationship to us. As long as they respect us and our freedom, then I don’t really care if the LIKE us. The terrorists from the Middle East came to us with violence – and have been attacking for quite a few years. Now is the time to put an end to it – BEFORE it happens again. And putting an end to it is to go down the path of Middle East peace. When those countries (Iraq and Afghanistan) start experiencing real peace and freedom over there, it will catch like wildfire and spread. The more freedom spreads over there, the more peace we have over here.
Somehow, the big picture seems easy to see to me. America is right – we have done nothing wrong but progress. And apparently other countries hate us for it.
To them I say: GOD BLESS AMERICA!!! LAND THAT I LOVE!!!